i also feel sad, but im helpless because i cant protect my kids from the things that go on around us in our own sad little world called home and the court system that ws meant to protect us. Due to politics and money talks louder than TRUTH and what should really happen for the good of the children. I love my kids so much but this world is a horrible wicked place! Evil surrounds us. How can you protect what a father they worship , shoves down their throat as being "good"

Im not sayin their dad is evil, but crosses a fine line. So many things scare me death and i think theres a time a place where you teach a child things/ allow a child to do things. A child needs a bedtime, not 1am on school nites, not drive construction equiptment when he is 5 years old, not work manual farm labor, or be surrounded by rough grough farm hands day in and day out, etc

A child does NOT need to be playin with guns! I did
Well....i could go on, but you get the jist of it. :)

No. I'll hate it. And now, because you disagree with me, I'll hate you. Because I'm hate-filled.

I understand your point, but religion is different, in my opinion. People don't use alcohol or their upbringing nearly as much as religion, especially over the centuries. I feel that without religion, many more people would have to be upfront about their opinions. And let me say again, I don't hate the people who practice their religion and keep it personal. My quarrel is with those who turn it public and try to either convert or influence through religious means. So, no, I don't hate religion, necessarily. If I said that, I apologize, I misspoke. What I hate are the (millions of) people who use religion (and, oftentimes, the literal interpretation of the religion) to take society a step backwards. Let's face it, there haven't been any wars waged between alcoholics and abolitionists. Maybe a protest or two, a trampling here or there, but nothing like an actual war. Religion stands alone in that way. I don't like those people.

But practice it in your own home and I will absolutely not care--in fact, faith is respectable in my opinion. I just don't like those who try and make it known or influence other people with their religious views. To me that's not right, especially when it infringes upon basic human and social rights (gay marriage, for example).

I wonder where gulio went.

†

"But the fact that they could hide behind that facade and actually gain so many supporters is what irritates me. And it's not just Christianity. It's organized religion in general."


You can hide behind anything. Some of our friends hide behind alcohol as a reason for their actions. Do you hate alcohol? Some people hide behind the media. Do you hate them too? Some behind their upbringing. Their situation.

You'd hate the whole world if you hated everything everyone hides behind. I find it better to accept it for what it is. I find it better to look at the good. Don't hate it for the people who use it. Look at it and say, wow, Christianity has some good ideas, some bad. Find it nuts if you want. But don't hate it. Hate the people who hide behind it.

I am an expert. I am an expert at everything in the world, which makes me right, so you shouldn't question me. Watch it happen: I'll rule the world some day. And all you uninformed LIBS will be put in concentration camps for asking too many questions.

What I mean by faith is people who practice their religion and simultaneously believe in the good things about them that make the world, at least theoretically, a safer place. Things like not murdering people, and not stealing, and practicing peace. You can be part of the most secluded, crazy-ass sect in the world, but if you believe in things like tolerance and social equality and coexistence, I will not say one word.

I do not hate Christianity for the hypocrisy of the Bible. I do not hate Christianity for believing Jesus was the messiah. True, I don't believe in the Bible or Jesus myself, but I could care less if you do. What I hate about Christianity (and religion in general, but Christianity to a great extent) is how it provides so many people throughout history the opportunity to rally the masses around an idea that divides, harms and degrades humans worldwide. Not every Christian today hates Muslims, I know. Not every Christian during the Crusades hated Muslims, I know. But the fact that they could hide behind that facade and actually gain so many supporters is what irritates me. And it's not just Christianity. It's organized religion in general.

Or, maybe it's just my opinion. Oh well.

†

What then should "faith" really be, if you are the expert?

Heathenhater, you're dumb. Who are you to criticize people for debating civilly when that's all you do too?

And once again, my debate is not with the truly pious, so it's not that I hate that people are religious. I respect religious people, and any religion out there. As long as the people are religious. My quarrels are with the corruption entailed and the people who lose sight of what "faith" really should be.

"Next time big guy."

†

Your both dumb. Some people are religious jon, get over it. ANd some people hate religion gulioped. you get over it too. You 2 are not getting anywhere

gulioped,

First of all, thanks for your comments. Legitimately. When I said "fighting back," I didn't mean I actually wanna yell and kick and scream. I just meant someone is arguing back with me. Too often do I try and talk about religion and people just walk away. THAT is why I get in these little tirades of mine so often--because I am waiting for someone to push back. Now, there's you. So thanks.

Second, I was a Christian--a Catholic--for 17 years of my life. I know a bit about Christianity. So, personally, I'd have to say no one has tried to convert me. I am a white suburbanite in a rich neighborhood. The vast majority of families in this community are either Christian or Jewish. If you wanna find conversions, you need look no further than the Bible Belt. I know there are extreme cases down there, but there are also quite regular cases of attempted "conversions" (that aren't really trying to convert anyone, but rather stating that the people who practice those other religions are wrong). My aunt lives in Alabama, and I visit her often enough to know what it's like down there, and to be able to draw parallels up here.

When I denounced my catholicism, my family didn't understand. And they still aren't comfortable with it. And in fact, they told me that as long as I "believe in something" (a deity), they're fine with it. Well, not only are they awkward about it, indicating they are not fine, but they also imply that they would not respect me if I were an atheist. My point in telling you this is that a lot more people than you think are like this out there, in America. There is a clear Christian bias, and we are considered a Christian nation.

I realize in the same breath that most Christians don't carry guns and wage war on the muslims they see on the street. My concerns aren't regarding those wackos, because wackos exist in every religion (and actually, I pick on Christianity, but really I'm not a fan of organized religion as a whole. If Hinduism were the most common religion in America, I would pick on Hinduism). My complaints are with the Bible, the history, the contradictions of the religion itself, the beliefs held as fundamentals that have been proven wrong, the beliefs held as fundamentals that I can't bring myself to fathom or trust, and the followers of Christianity that do harm in indirect ways, both to non-Christians and Christians alike.

Allow me to explain. The Bible contradicts itself hundreds of times and presents countless examples of proof that it is wrong and cannot be trusted. One of the top arguments that the Bible is accurate is that scriptural scholars of the time were surprisingly accurate with their recordings But that cannot be when they cite mythological beasts, including dragons, unicorns, cockatrices, and satyrs, as though they actually existed. With examples such as those, how can we actually believe that Jesus did any of the things the Bible said he did? And don't try and sell to me that the Bible isn't important to Christians. It is the foundation on which the entire religion is built. You cannot believe in Jesus and what he did and simultaneously denounce the Bible. They go hand in hand. And you're picking at straws when you tell me God was only damaging property. Either way you look at it, God is authorizing our punishment, cruelty and hazing of "heathens." The Book of Joshua kills off everyone in Jericho simply because Joshua was promised, by God, that he would obtain military victory. The only one who was spared was Rahab, the prostitute who lied to the natives. Yes, she is even praised, multiple times in the Bible, for lying. According to the bible, we CAN harass non-Christians. If only we could get that into our judicial system. Christian law would be oh so swell.

The history I already explained. The Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition are major Christian events. You cannot tell me that the Crusades would have happened if the Christians weren't around, and likewise for the Inquisition. Those are strictly Christian events and actions. And yes, I know the pope is only the leader of the Catholics NOW, but during the time of the Crusades, there only existed Catholics, so the two terms went hand in hand. The pope was leader of all the Catholics, which at that time was all the Christians (the vast, vast majority, anyway). As for McCarthyism, it was an era whose title is interchangeable with the Red Scare in the United States. Actually, I sort of explained it in my earlier post, the one you quoted, but to elaborate, the Red Scare was a time in American (recent) history in which we Americans got so freaked out during the Cold War that we wanted all Russian sympathizers rounded up and jailed, if not worse. The phenomenon got so out of control that we ended up jailing anyone and everyone with even remote ties to Russia or Communism. The association that came with Communism was atheism, and, as a Christian nation, we could not accept atheists during that era. So the conflict between Christians and atheists during McCarthyism (called so because of Wi. Senator Joe McCarthy, who initiated and perpetuated the terror) is in fact a religious difference.

As for homosexuality, this has to be the case. What other group in America is so prominent and so loud that they can cause so much commotion over the issue of gay marriage? There is no other social group in the United States that is so large and boisterous in voicing its opinions against the legal union of gays that they can actually prevent so many states still from legalizing it. There simply is no other group. It is the Christians. And it is because of.... ding ding ding! That's right, the bible! Gays have as much right to wed as do blacks and whites and Latinos. The fact that they still cannot get married legally in so many states is simply, purely discrimination. There's no reason to block it, other than it "contradicts family values" (ie., Christian family values). There might be a few non-Christians out there against gay marriage, but why? Because it has been painted for SOO long in our society as a negative by...? The Christian community! Maybe not all of them are against it, but enough are. And that's more than should be.

As for the religious crusade, I understand that Bush did not invade Iraq because we are Christian and they are Muslim. There were other reasons, and I am well aware of that. But you bring up Korea. Why didn't we invade Korea? We know for a fact they have WMDs. We KNOW that. Kim Jong Il loved to taunt us with that fact! So why did we invade Iraq over weak intelligence when we know North Korea has them with strong intelligence? There are reasons. Oil is one. Terrorism? Nnnnnnah. Not really. Bush admitted himself that we didn't invade Iraq for its terrorism (of course he did so after the fact). You cannot tell me that religion played NO part in his choices. Now, maybe the country didn't exactly rally around a religious battlecry. But for Bush, the Muslim "extremists" (in his mind, every Muslim) were the enemy, and he sold it to America, and America ate it up. And from then on, we were always fighting "Muslim extremists," without differentiating between the normal, practicing Muslims and the actual extremists. We simply said that all Muslims were extremists. You can't tell me that's inaccurate. As we progress, more and more people are opening their eyes, but in the beginning, religion was a huge factor, and it remains to this day. Again, though, I am not saying religion is the only factor. It is impossible for the United States, as a superpower, and as a republican superpower, to wage a by-the-books religious crusade. But this is as close as we can get without officially acknowledging Christianity as the national religion. I call that a crusade, at least to an extent.

I would like to close with a statement. Like I said before, I am not only biased against Christians. True, I think that so many of the Christian doctrines and fundamental arguments (the Bible, for one) are ridiculous. But I also think that the Iraqis who want both democracy and Muslim law are ridiculous. And I think the idea that progressive Hindus who claim to be progressive and liberal in America cling to tradition and don't even accept converts into Hinduism is ridiculous. In fact, I am not very fond of organized religion. I consider myself an observational deist, which is a natural religion, not organized. I pick on Christians because they provide me with the most material AND I used to be one. But I am not too keen on the idea of organized religion as a whole. That said, the basic beliefs of most religions--be kind to neighbors, practice peace, don't hate or lie or cheat or steal or kill--are solid. But the atheists' code, as well as the deist creed, both incorporate those same basic elements, which just goes to show that organized religion is not essential, at least not to the intellectual community. For some, I realize, church provides a haven in times of disparity. I am not knocking that. When it's personal, honestly, I don't care. But when it translates to the government, to policy, to the schools, or to conversion techniques, that's when I take offense.

†

Damn it, I replied to you, gulioped, but for whatever reason the site didn't post it, so I'll post it again later (it was long, and I don't have the energy right now). Just a head's up.

†

Norski, you could teach first how stealing is /not/ wrong and how /thieving/ is. And Hh, murder is wrong by definition. There's also slauhter or slaying, and quelling, and killing, and snuffing, and starving.
it's -> its
guiloped, there are plenty of edicts for genocide. Why don't you look yourself? Krist was also a bigot.

OHK,

First off, I am not "fighting back" merely discussing ideas.

"God tells Joshua IN THE BIBLE to raze those cities to the ground. To kill people. Why? Because they did not conform to the beliefs that the people who wrote the Bible thought they should have conformed to. That is why we have Islamaphobia today. "

A few things. You may claim I am getting technical with you here, but it is not proper logic to jump from razing cities to the ground to killing people. One might reason that the bible, a book that rarely states exactly what it means, and often does so trough metaphors, was conferring upon joshua to punish people of the city for their sins by destroying their property. And I am not completely familiar with this passage of the bible, could you please cite it for me? I don't doubt its existence, I would just like to read it for myself.

Also, do you really think Christianity is to blame for Islamaphobia? Please. If we were attacked by a small group of Africans or a small group of Chinese, we would have the same fears. Christianity has nothing to do with it. It is a common response to a disaster to stereotype those responsible into a particular group, and that group in this case, is middle easterns.

"And if Christianity is really the true, God-mandated religion, then why are there so many sects and denominations?"

To answer this question, let us use a simple analogy. As my perusal of this site has shown me, you are a high schooler. Lets say I am your class-mate, and we both write an essay on any given topic. We could write the answer different ways, and make different points, but both of our papers would receive A's. And have you noticed the disagreements that exist between atheists and the right interpretation of atheist philosophical writings? If I am going to be an atheist, should I follow Plato or Aristotle, Sartre or Skinner? Both atheists and Christians are in the same boat as far as having internal disagreements.

"No, no, no, my problem with Christianity does not reside in the people who only practice to themselves and do good unto their neighbors without trying to convert their neighbors. I've said before, if a Christian goes to Africa to help the impoverished children in the name of Christianity, I won't stop them. They are doing good. But when our nation turns Christian from secular, and when people are denied rights based on Christian fundamentals, I take offense."

Now OHK, lets take a look at being belligerent with religion or lack of it. I think you are looking at this from a look out but not in stance. Sure, I admit that some Christians, such as the Reverend Jerry Falwell were a bit off the deep-end in their comments. But I mean, looking at this site, you seem to launch into an anti-christian tirade any time you get the chance man.

And your example of Homosexual marriage. You make it seem like every Christian is against it. This is not the case.

"Without Christianity, we would have no swear words. Swear words are random words that religion pointed out are evil for some reason."

Sure thing with some swear words. But I really do not think all swear words are based on Christianity. examples are F**k and N****r. So that argument is invalid as well.

"How can you say that the Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition have nothing to do with Christianity? The Crusades were initiated by Pope Urban II--that's POPE Urban. The LEADER of the Christians."

Excuse me, but you either made a mistake, or are ignorant. The Pope is not the leader of the christians, but the catholics. And like any other human, he is not infallible. Sure those events have to do with Christianity. But only its use as a shield, not the actual faith itself. That is my point. The Christian religion is not at fault. It is simply that it is an easy scapegoat to hide behind.

"Oh, well Bush is sorta going on a religious crusade, isn't he? Yeah, Iraq is a religious war, and if you need evidence, let me just point you to "Hussein" Obama. He'll tell you how big of a deal Islam is to our precious Christian nation."

OHK, no, just no. This war is unjust, yes. It is for profits of big business and not for freedom, yes. But to say Iraq is a "religious crusade" is legitimately insane. You fail to see that the controversy with Obama's middle name stems not from religious conviction, but from a fear that has been drilled into us that people from the middle east are terrorists. If the terrorists were from korea, a big deal would be if someones name was lee or kim.

"The Crusaders would have had to hide behind something else. The Spaniards would not have been mobilized or motivated to hound out the Muslims. The Americans would not have been able to throw so many God-hating Atheist Russian-sympathizers into jail during the McCarthyism scare. In fact, Christianity is at the root of so many major problems. And it simply cannot be just one guy. It's a general will and consensus."

Sure and some other belief system would be the "root of so many major problems" if thats what you feel Christianity is. And McCarthyism? We had addressed the other 2 issues, but that came out of nowhere. Please explain.

And finally OHK. The vast majority of Christians are peaceful, and carry no more hate than anyone else. They contribute greatly to society and are valuable members of the world. Just because a small minority is extreme, or trying to convert you, dont judge the religion as a whole. That would be like judging all Muslim as terrorist extremists. Again untrue.

And think about this. How many times have you personally, in person, had someone try to convert you to Christianity? Just wondering

gulioped

Finally, someone's fighting back.

I do understand the "essence" of Christianity. The "essence" of Christianity is the same "essence" as every other major religion in the world. My point is that Christianity has a much more belligerent history, and a much more infamous tendency to stray from that essence, than any other religion in the history of the world. Even Roman and Greek mythology justified warfare. Technical Christianity does not condone harm unto others. When I said that you can do anything you want to non-Christians, it was both a mockery of what some Christians like to believe (petunia....) and also an example of biblical hypocrisy. God tells Joshua IN THE BIBLE to raze those cities to the ground. To kill people. Why? Because they did not conform to the beliefs that the people who wrote the Bible thought they should have conformed to. That is why we have Islamaphobia today. Christians in America hate different cultures (although now it might be more of a rival relationship, since Islam has surpassed Catholicism in number of followers) (but I'm not sure how many Catholics know/believe that).

The Bible's overall message is positive. Of course it's "overall message" is positive! It has to be! Otherwise it would never have gotten a single reader. It has to preach love and peace and all that jazz, or else Christianity wouldn't exist. People were fed up with warfare and the Roman style of conquest and life. People wanted change. Jesus is born, Catholicism takes off, and it's all thanks to a positive New Testament. But that doesn't stop the Old Testament from making rather bleak messages (such as how God hated what he created, so he wiped out the earth's population with a flood), nor does it stop the New Testament from contradicting itself (such as when Matthew says "I come not to bring peace, but a sword").

A simple contradiction that I like to raise is "Thou shalt not kill" with Joshua. If the Bible can contradict itself so blatantly and easily, IT CANNOT BE CORRECT. And if Christianity is really the true, God-mandated religion, then why are there so many sects and denominations? Why would God be so evasive in telling us the truth? The fact of the matter remains that Christianity is one of the biggest hoaxes of all time, if not THE biggest hoax. I need not cite the Council of Nicaea, I'm sure, in which Jesus went from possibly deistic to absolutely deistic, by MAN'S OWN DECISION. We MADE Jesus divine. How can that be accurate?

My points here are merely to paint the picture that Christianity's Bible and the chief concepts that separate Christianity from the other religions are absolutely wrong. Now, it's "essence" is another story. The teachings of right and wrong, do good unto your neighbor, etc etc, that's all well and good. But that's all well and good in Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism, Islam, even Atheism. No, no, no, my problem with Christianity does not reside in the people who only practice to themselves and do good unto their neighbors without trying to convert their neighbors. I've said before, if a Christian goes to Africa to help the impoverished children in the name of Christianity, I won't stop them. They are doing good. But when our nation turns Christian from secular, and when people are denied rights based on Christian fundamentals, I take offense.

Homosexuality. Who the hell would deny this concept at all if not for religion, and more specifically Christianity, whose Bible declares homosexuality a sin. Nobody! What business is it of yours who gets married? You won't let two men that love each other get married, but you'll let two rednecks say "I do" because one of 'em's both knocked up and a woman, and there is a shotgun pointing at them? Swear words is another one. Without Christianity, we would have no swear words. Swear words are random words that religion pointed out are evil for some reason.

People have been hiding behind Christianity for too long! Absolutely! That's my point! How can you say that the Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition have nothing to do with Christianity? The Crusades were initiated by Pope Urban II--that's POPE Urban. The LEADER of the Christians. If the LEADER of the Christians is making calls like that, there is something fundamentally wrong with the system. Now I know something like that would never happen today. Right? Oh, well Bush is sorta going on a religious crusade, isn't he? Yeah, Iraq is a religious war, and if you need evidence, let me just point you to "Hussein" Obama. He'll tell you how big of a deal Islam is to our precious Christian nation.

I realize that not all Christians are evil. I realize that not all Christians hate Muslims. I realize that. I'm not an idiot. But seriously, take Christianity out of the equation for a second (I'd ask you to take religion out, but one step at a time). The Crusaders would have had to hide behind something else. The Spaniards would not have been mobilized or motivated to hound out the Muslims. The Americans would not have been able to throw so many God-hating Atheist Russian-sympathizers into jail during the McCarthyism scare. In fact, Christianity is at the root of so many major problems. And it simply cannot be just one guy. It's a general will and consensus.

That is why I dislike Christianity.

†

OHK,

I personally do not think that you understand the essence of Christianity. Christianity has almost nothing to do with the stories told in the bible. Christianity is about belief and faith. It is about leading a moral life. I understand that contradictions make it hard to grasp that, and admit that there are contradictions within the bible.

But the bible's overall message is positive. And also, many of the contradictions you cite are between God in the New and Old Testaments I am assuming. That is an unfair comparison, as they are separate entities.

And reading your other posts, I notice that you cite the Crusades and the Inquisition as arguments against Christianity, stating something along the line of "look what Christianity has done!" But again, this argument is moot. Just because some Marxist commits an atrocious act saying its "for Marxism," does not make Marxist philosophy evil, it makes that person evil. People have used Christianity as a facade for too many years to hide behind their negative actions and remarks. But that does not make Christianity at fault.

And OHK, it was not just the Christian faith that thought the sun revolved around the earth. It was everybody. The Catholic church simply resisted science, just as any normal person resists revolutionary change. And that change was revolutionary....no pun intended.

And please cite where the bible says..... "Do anything you want to non-christians"

gulioped

Damn it, I've gotta stop going on these rants. I'm driving away all the fun! It seems the Christian cons don't really understand much about their own religion. It's too bad, I'm still waiting for a devout challenger. That'd be fun.

Oh well.

†

Norski, Norski, Norski. I was hoping I wouldn't have to do this. But you prompted my religion-hating hand. Damn it.

Two-millenia-old church! Ahhhh, sounds good, doesn't it? I love how the church claims legitimacy for its age and wisdom and size. It's the biggest one, which means it's gotta be right. Hahaha, I love it. Let me spell it out for you: Christianity is a joke. Again, that's J-O-K-E. The actual beliefs and writings of that awesome church of yours is the biggest hypocrite in our world's history. Do you have any idea how many times those writings contradict themselves? How can those beliefs and writings then have ANY legitimacy? They change with the times! Christianity first rose, like most religions, to explain what was unexplained. The heavens, outer space, the afterlife, and everything we didn't and don't know about was explained through mythology and religion. And as times change and science develops, we learn more about the universe, which contradicts what the Church and Bible tell us. Which makes the Church change its views. For instance, the Vatican recently legitimized belief in aliens, as in we are not alone in the universe, because they are "still God' creatures." How long ago was it that they thought the universe rotated around the Earth?

The Old Testament and the New Testament are like black and white. God tells Joshua to raze cities to the ground simply because they have not embraced God. Then, he tells Moses, "Thou shalt not kill." The Bible justifies rape, murder, pillaging, beating, stealing, and lying, but then says you can't do any of it. Basically, what the Bible tells us is that you can do anything you want at all to non-Christians. Oh, if only the church ran our society! When will we learn to ditch secularism! Oh, wait. We kinda did it.

Nice.

†

Heathenhater,

My apologies. I was less than diplomatic.

Recognizing that your mind is made up, I will answer your questions, and be done.

How do you scare me?
You don't. You appear to have the standard-issue philosophy of moral relativism that's been all the rage for a handful of decades now. My experience has been that people with this system of belief are harmless, benign, even helpful. I certainly do not fear a physical attack from you. However, since you and others believe that moral reality can be changed by referendum, I am 'scared' of what may happen when another fad like, say, eugenics comes along.

Lets stone all the gays right? Lets follow all of the 600 some commandments like the hasidic jews. Thats the answer. good idea big guy.
First, I am a Christian, and a Catholic at that. I am specifically commanded to love gays, lesbians, telephone solicitors, and fat women in spandex shorts. If you are seriously interested in Catholic teaching on human sexuality, I suggest starting in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, sections 2331 and following.
Second, although someone said "Jesus is Kosher," He also boiled the law down to two points: love God, love your neighbor. (Matthew 22:36-4) Works for me. And yes, it is a good idea.
I realize that this may not be obvious, so I'll say it:
Jimmy Swaggart, Pat Robertson, and The Reverend Jeremiah Wright are not typical Christian leaders, and the beliefs they state are often not consistent with either 'mainstream' Protestant denominations, or Catholic teaching.

I realize that I am scary. Or, rather, that the ideas I state are frightening. They are definite, complex, and inextricably tied into the nature of humanity. And, they are almost a polar opposite to the do-you-own-thing ethic which many Americans are accustomed to.

As for taking your words out of context - I did read the following paragraph (before writing that previous comment, to my embarrassment), and acknowledge that I did not adequately re-present your complete statement. For that I do, once again, apologize.

However, I think that you might seriously consider looking beyond the loud and colorful self-proclaimed "Christian leaders," to the actual beliefs and writings of a two-millennia-old church.

if your going to make a comment about me, make it at me. And make an argument.

And how do I scare you. I believe that society determines what is right and wrong. Meaning, I wont rape, murder or commit crimes. Whats there to be scared of mate?

You are the scary one, getting your morals from "God" Lets stone all the gays right? Lets follow all of the 600 some commandments like the hasidic jews. Thats the answer. good idea big guy.

And again, you take my words out of their context. If you read the whole paragraph. I say murder is wrong, just not inherently. Any murder in todays world is wrong. I'm just saying, their is no universal like moral truth that murder is wrong.

"Murder is not inherently wrong in the big picture."




Perhaps it depends on the definition of "murder."
UC, it's people who sincerely believe this sort of thing that concern me: not the occasional serial rapist, or the ladies with the frozen babies.

Oh Norski,

If only everything could be disproved by paradox. Then we could say God does not exist!!!!

"If there is no absolute right or wrong, then that woman who killed her babies and put the bodies in the freezer is no more guilty that someone who put some frozen chickens in for cold storage."

You miss my point.

My point is that we as a society determine evil. Murder is not inherently wrong in the big picture. But in our lives, in our societies, it is very wrong. It is one of the worst things a person can do. And sir, of course it would sound like non-sense to you, given you were brought up under a society where you were taught from a very young age that murder is wrong and killing animals is right. Now I agree with that notion, but it does not make it a moral truth.

Moral truth would indicate that since the beginning of time, everything has been either definitely right or definitely wrong. I refuse to believe that.

H

p.s. - this is not spiraling out of control yet, because as of right now, we are both making legitimate arguments, and not mudslinging. Thank you for that

@ UC Are you becoming a 'compassionate conservative?' If you expand your sorrow and rage to include pre-teen girls working 16 hours per day in a Taipei sweatshop, and Palestinian children injured by flechettes from cluster bombs, and Mexican children stranded at school while their mothers are deported, you just may become liberal, or at least human.

Regarding the post on the psychopath Josef Fritzl, you'd think after centuries of unthinkable human atrocities and crimes against humanity we'd have learned our lesson but one undeniable truth that will never change is deviant human nature/behavior, much like the common roach, will always survive. As long as we live in an imperfect world monsters like these have and will continue to live amongst us!

BTW, I'm probably contributing the tendency of this thread "to spiral out of control".

Alas! I'm often one to pour oil on troubled fires.

UC,

Thanks for the "change" story. (Wait a minute! Doesn't everyone know that conservatives are humorless? You really should put up warning signs. ;) )

More seriously, I see that Heathenhater came up with "You talk about evil like it can be defined! What defines evil?" That was like a flashback to hearing the best minds on college campuses declaim their sophisticated, intelligent philosophies. (If you doubt that it's sophisticated and intelligent, you're stupid: just ask them.)

If there is no absolute right or wrong, then that woman who killed her babies and put the bodies in the freezer is no more guilty that someone who put some frozen chickens in for cold storage. Less, probably, since she didn't participate indirectly in the cruel slaughter of innocent animals.

If that sounds like nonsense, I agree.

"There is no absolute truth" sounds great in a classroom or the campus hangout, but it won't fly. For starters, if there is not absolute truth, then the absolute statement that there is no absolute truth isn't true.

Now my head hurts.

UC, finally, I have four surviving children. I believe I know what you meant when you wrote, "as a parent, you can only do so much to protect them from life. There will be a time when they will have to experience life on their own."

As much as I am concerned about what will happen to my children, I try not to worry. I'm teaching them primitive ideas like 'don't steal' and filling their minds with hateful messages like 'love your enemies.' And, they're learning Soo Bahk Do for times when just knowing that there is a real world, and that some people in it aren't very nice, isn't quite enough.

It looks like you're doing the same.

Sorry, I do have to bring this up.

HeathenHater,

"Norski said:
And, I find it difficult to believe that you are not teaching them what is right, what is wrong, and why each is what it is.

Norski, my question for you would be this. What is right and what is wrong? Who gave you or anyone else the right to make that judgment?"

A direct answer is "God."

I don't have time to explain that Catholics are not simple-minded perverts whose minds are warped by slightly less simple-minded, but more perverted priests, and all the rest of the propaganda, is untrue.

I am very familiar with moral relativism.

As to 'who can say what is right and what is wrong?' Who can say that the gentleman in Germany really did anything wrong? It is arguable that the societal taboos and shibboleths surrounding incest are mere inventions of the powerful to impose their repressive preferences upon others.

No, really: It is. Nobody tried to justify serial child rape of one's own daughter, but 'victim of society' isn't a line made up by scriptwriters for a Batman movie.

Enough.

UC

That is a funny story, and I actually am laughing.

By the way, 18 in California... what the hell is going on over there??


Is your 6 year old daughter really voting this year? Wow, nice work haha. And the RIGHT answer... if she means McCain then its more like the SLIGHTLY RIGHT ANSWER. I like your daughter though haha, she amuses me
§

@ UC

You talk about evil like it can be defined! What defines evil? I don't mean to be belligerent, but to say "Have you ever stared evil in the eye?" One must have a definition of evil. I am just wondering what that is.

And okay, I understand your point on soldiers, but why do some deaths get more coverage than others. If the news did a story on all of those people who have tragically died of Malaria or AIDS or the innocent people who died in Iraq, it would overload the media. What makes these incident so much more special? I am not disrespecting their deaths as much as I am asking for all deaths to be treated equally.

But overall, I really appreciate the main point of your article, about your daughters and bringing them up to be better people and be strong. It was great to here that you are a great parent. And like heyzeus, I am thankful for my parents. I believe they have directed me to be a great citizen of the US as well as the world. I am much better off because of them, and love them very much.

Anyway,
Good Article, just a little pessimistic for me. I prefer to think that the world is good.

H

@HeyZues

haha..good one. I set myself up for that one. Actually, i have a funny story.

We were driving the other day; and my 6 year old was asking when she can start driving. I thought the age was 16 but my wife thought the law changed to 18 here in California. Nontheless, when we told her that she had to wait until she was 18; she said:

"I am so mad at the democrats".

I said why?

She said, "because they changed the law. You said they always want to change things".

I could not stop laughing for days and until this day, I still crack up.

Ask her who she is voting for ... and she will give yout he RIGHT answer. Pun intended.

UC,

I am experiencing what you are fearing from the other point of view. If you have kept up on the Obama blog, I believe it is, I have told you that I am in high school. So in a few months, I'll be away from my parents, and if it makes you feel any better, I will have listened to what they have said and I am thankful for their protection and I am sure your daughters will be too.


"Until that time, I will continue to fight the good fight."
Ah, so I see you are going to be a liberal now??? Haha.

§

@Heathenhater

I knew this was going to spiral out of control. Nothing is different.

"What makes the death of a soldier, or a "terrorist" less important. You seem to write those off as the realities of war, but a murder?"

the biggest differences are this. People in war (on both sides) make a conscious decision to strap up the boots, put on the helmet and engage. Innocent children like the ones mentioned above aren’t given a choice; and yes, even the innocent people who are dying in Iraq is a tragedy as well.

The world we live in Heathen is an evil place. Have you ever stared evil in the eye? Probably not.

@ Norski

No need for sympathies my friend. My girls are alive and healthy. My point was that, as a parent, you can only do so much to protect them from life. There will be a time when they will have to experience life on their own. As much as I hate to admit it, I will have to let go at some point; and I don't want to. Until that time, I will continue to fight the good fight.

I feel terrible about these children and the Austrian women, but here is another thought. I don't mean to be disrespectful.

You say that we are surrounded by evil in the world, but what defines evil? Who defines evil? Our government defines the terrorists as evil, and the "terrorists" look at us as evil. My point is this.

Norski said:
And, I find it difficult to believe that you are not teaching them what is right, what is wrong, and why each is what it is.

Norski, my question for you would be this. What is right and what is wrong? Who gave you or anyone else the right to make that judgment? Right and wrong can only be defined as the broad view that society puts on any issue. Is murder inherently wrong? No it is not. It is wrong because the high majority of our society has decided it is wrong, and therefore, taught generation after generation that it is. But the killing of another species is okay in our society.

Now, relating this back to this piece. I understand that these people's deaths and situations are tragic, sure. But, you are seemingly hypocritical. What makes the death of a soldier, or a "terrorist" less important. You seem to write those off as the realities of war, but a murder? Thats wrong. If ones death is the reality of war, then another's is the reality of the world. Bad things happen.

Now I do not support this view, I would just like to see a standard taken that any life is just as valuable or invaluable as another. We pay attention to these headlines and forget that many die in armed conflict or of AIDS. What makes those people any different???

My sincere sympathies.

And yes, we are surrounded by evil. And, because of our own imperfections, there is even evil within each of us. (I am *not* equating my habit of eating too much with what the man in Germany did - the point is that there's no way to completely avoid evil.)

I would like to respectfully disagree with your statement, "I can’t protect my two little girls from the horrible actions of this world."

Since I presume that they are still alive, you've at least done that much.

And, I find it difficult to believe that you are not teaching them what is right, what is wrong, and why each is what it is. Teaching our children about what they may expect is protecting them.

"Am I the only one who thinks of these things?" No. There is at least one other: me. I recognize that creatures very much like myself turned others into lampshades and soap, took advantage of their position to extort goods and services from those below them in the social scale, plundered each others' homes: and committed atrocities like the ones you describe.

Disgusting? Yes.

But there is good being done, too.

Even the Hollywood nitwits who mug for the camera while emoting about the Cause of the Month are, in their own way, doing good - or at least trying to. I prefer to believe that, in their own muddled way, they really believe that they're raising awareness and helping to solve problems. And, they may be right.

As for wishing to avenge the wrongs that were done: that is a very understandable wish. I don't know (haven't bothered to research it - sorry about the apathy) what your religious beliefs are. I'm Catholic, which means that I'm forbidden to seek revenge - and a good thing, too. Personally, I'm too ignorant, too stupid, and to personally involved to know what a correct vengeance would be.

I am assured that, just as I will have to account for what I've done, and not done, everyone else will have to, too. For me, that's not a reassuring thought: It's a sobering one.

Okay: counter-rant over.

I did a little checking around, and found some good news. The idea is to demonstrate that there are people who aren't leaving junior-size corpses in the freezer, and running a grow-your-own brothel.

Hope these aren't too schmaltzy.

Grand Forks, ND, kid volunteers to deliver food
https://secure.forumcomm.com/grandforks/article...

Iraqi baby's medical condition noticed by American soldiers during raid - as of 2006, she was getting the first in a series of surgical procedures in the Atlanta area.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,181088,00.html

A teenager runs across a freeway to a burning SUV, uses her elbow as a mallet to break a window, pulls a three-year-old out of the smoke, wades back in to see if she can find the driver.
http://www.idahopress.com/news/?id=7512