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As much as I like McCain, his Military record of service and his dedication to this country; he is still a flip flopper. Obama … well, as much as I admire his charisma and charm; he is also a flip flopper.
Let’s face it. All politicians are flip floppers – moderates, republicans, democrats, liberals, and conservatives. It’s a fact and it’s normal. In time, we all grow, change our minds, and alter our perspectives on certain issues depending on our every day experiences. But the question we need to ask ourselves is “how often are they flip flopping?” and “what are we willing to accept as a normal change in one’s mind?”
The reality is that a flip flop can either be a “valid change” in a politicians mind or just a political maneuver to “tell the people what they want to hear in order to get elected.”
In this years, 2008 Presidential Election, both McCain and Obama are guilty. Let’s examine and they you can make your own assumptions as to their true motives.
John McCain
We all know that McCain has always been on the moderate side of the political spectrum, but since his unofficial Republican nomination, he as adopted more of a conservative slant on immigration, interrogation, Guantanamo, Oil drilling to name a few.
In regards to immigration, McCain was one of the key supporters of President Bush’s plan of a “comprehensive immigration reform”, which would have created “paths to citizenship” for illegal immigrants, while investing more money in border security.
The plan was not so popular with conservative Republicans, and the Senate succeeded in blocking the plan. And just recently and throughout the primaries, McCain announced that his immigration focus would be on securing America’s borders, rather than on giving illegal immigrants the chance to become US citizens.
“I understand why you would call it a, quote, shift,” McCain told reporters in November 2007, “I say it is a lesson learned about what the American people’s priorities are. And their priority is to secure the borders.” Verdict: He changed his mind.
Since securing the Republican nomination, McCain - one of only a few prominent Republicans to accept the argument that humans are causing global warming - has dropped his previous objection to lifting the ban on oil exploration off the coast of the United States. Verdict: Not too sure about this one.
McCain was one of the most vocal Republican voices opposed to the Bush administration’s detention policy in Guantanamo Bay. As a previous POW (Prisoner of War) in Vietnam, I can understand and appreciate his position. But when the Supreme Court recently ruled that Guantanamo detainees have the right to challenge their detention in US civilian courts, McCain described it as “one of the worst decisions in the history of the country“. Verdict: He really flip flopped on this one.
More recently, McCain changed his position by supporting a bill exempting the CIA from following the same rules on interrogation as the US Army. I am glad he flip flopped on this one because I agree with it; but he still flip flopped. Verdict: Totally Flip flopped.
During his 2000 bid for the Republican nomination, relations between McCain and Christian Coalition founder Jerry Falwell were notoriously damaged. McCain described Falwell and fellow members of the Christian right as “agents of intolerance“.
But in 2006, McCain delivered the commencement address at Falwell’s Liberty University, after which he attended a small private party hosted by his former political adversary. Verdict: Not really a flip flop. It was an estranged relationship and they reconciled. And, it was 6 years later.
Barack Obama
Since ousting Hillary for the Democratic nomination, Obama is also guilty of flip flopping among many many other things. : )
Obama has found more change he can believe in — as in changing his position on a fundamental issue: campaign finance. Just last month, he announced that he won’t be participating in public funding of the general election — the first candidate of either party to take that step since federal financing was inaugurated after the 1970s Watergate scandal.
A few weeks ago, he announced that he would be rejecting public financing for his campaign, and would instead rely on private donations.
Obama was asked in a presidential campaign questionnaire in November: “If you are nominated for president in 2008 and your major opponents agree to forgo private funding in the general election campaign, will you participate in the presidential public financing system?”
“Yes,” Obama responded in writing. “If I am the Democratic nominee, I will aggressively pursue an agreement with the Republican nominee to preserve a publicly financed general election.” McCain accused Obama of “going back on his word”, although Obama insisted that he had never made a promise to stay in the public finance system. Obama’s words above sound about as close to a promise as you can make without actually using the word promise. Verdict: Flat out flip flopper.
Obama also raised liberal eyebrows when he announced that he would not be opposing a bill going through Congress giving immunity to telephone companies involved in the Bush’s wiretap program. His decision angered many of his left wing (moveon.org type folks) supporters, who accused him of going back on his 2007 pledge “to support a filibuster of any bill that includes retroactive immunity for telecommunications companies”. Verdict: Flat out flip flopper and I think Moveon.org agrees with me on this one.
When the Supreme Court decided to overturn Washington DC’s handgun ban, Obama declared that the ruling “provided much needed guidance”, despite having previously argued (in a written answer that he says was drafted by an aide and which he had not approved) that the ban was constitutional. Verdict: Flip flop, plain and simple.
“Bring the troops home” from an unjust war that “I never supported from the beginning” has been the song and dance from the Obama campaign; and was an issue that set him apart from other Democratic candidates running for the party’s presidential nomination. Since his campaign began, however, conditions in Iraq have dramatically changed - violence has reduced and there is more stability in the region.
Obama himself has announced that he plans to visit Iraq, where he will make “a thorough assessment” which could lead him to “refine” his policy. Some critics have seized on this as an indication that Obama is laying the groundwork for a change in position. Verdict: He could actually be changing his mind about the situations in Iraq
Obama recently hinted to Fortune magazine that his strong anti-free trade rhetoric during the primaries may not have reflected his actual trade policy should he become the President. His remarks reflect the pressures and temptations that lead politicians to shift their positions during the process of running for office. “Sometimes during campaigns the rhetoric gets overheated and amplified,” he said, “Politicians are always guilty of that, and I don’t exempt myself.” At least he can admit it and I give him kudos for that. Verdict: Flip flop, clearly.
Tags: Campaign finance, free trade, Iraq, gun control, interrogation techniques, Guantanamo, surveillance program, off shore drilling, flip flopping, flip floppers, McCain, Obama, free trade
I think that most politicians do this, it is the pitfall of a two party political system. In order to get the funding and the endorsement from their own party, they have to go way to the right or the left (normally), and then come back center in order to pick up the fence sitters.
This Country of ours is so confused because of all the BS that they are pushing down our throats be it the indocternation programs at our schools, or the crap the media is telling us that for a lot of people they are scared, so scared that they are blind to the erosion of our basic liberties that this country where founded on.
The Democratic controlled Senate has the worse rating ever under 10% of the people agree with the job that they are doing. The President has been persecuted to the point that he can't do much of anything, and the judicial branch is running wild in the streets just making shit up.
What we need are politicians that get in office and start downsizing the Government. There is no need for all of this wast that is going on. Our tax system is way more complicated then it needs to be, and is nothing more then a burden on the citizens of this Country.
They continually make laws that make it better for the criminals, and harder for law abiding citizens.
It is to bad that most of the third party candidates all end up being some sort of nut job. It would be nice to get some one in office that is not tied down to special interest groups, or other groups that have paid their way to be there so that once they are in office then can tell them all to fuck off, and do it right.
Any one else here a Clancy fan?? What we need is Jack Ryan, and his way of setting up a whole new class of politicians to run Washington. OK I know fiction, but dam why does it have to be so hard.
The new BHO doctrine - when the going gets tough we leave, but if the going gets easy we stay. I would think that since the surge is indeed working this would comport well well BHO’s original position of immediately pulling out of Iraq - our presence is not needed. Now he is hesitant to leave Iraq. I am missing something.
Kelly,
Your not missing anything, I think that you are just putting it together wrong. BHO wanted to get out of there because he thought that there was no way that we could win, or do any good. I mean come on, GWB is a moron right, anything he does is bound to fail..anyway. The bottom line is that BHO has egg on his face, because guess what, GWB made a bold move in he face of adversity, and our boys and girls in green/brown kicked ass. It was not always easy going nor was it always preety, but you know what we freed a whole country that was ruled by a dictator ship. A country where Sadam and his sons tortered, rapped, and killed at will with no consequences. Where Sadam, for what ever reason wanted the world to thing he had WMD. Get on Bush for bad intel all you want, but never forget that Sadam is the one that lead the world to believe that he had WMD.
Barack is now trying to save face, it does not look as good to call for a pull out when we are winning, and the world knows it.
How does a pull out before we are kicked out look? What does the world know about that? Billions of dollars, thousands of lives and the removal of a dictator and now Iraq is saying don't let the door hit you on the way out? There will be no US military bases Iraq (handy if we go after Iran) but the oil companies made their deals so I guess it's worth it, right? How about saying, they want us out, we win. We came in with the goal of propping the Iraqi government up. Well they are propped up enough now to say get out. Victory! Now they can really get cozy with Iran without that meddlesome house guest around. Victory!
Now W and Father Time are both on record as saying this is not an occupation. "If they tell us to leave, we will leave." Well guess what? And thus another ill-fated pillar in an already crumbling campaign has fallen. It's fun to watch.
When/where did they say to leave? They said they'd like a timeline for our departure as a show of strength and confidence, but no officials are saying to up and get out...
Reaper,
I would not wast your time on simonesdad, he wants us to fail over there. He is one of these librals that wants to see the US fail. It justifies their extrem views that with out them we are never going to go anywhere. That the world just can not make it with out them telling us what to eat, what to buy, how to live our lives, and what countries we should try saving from the tyrany of dictatorship. It is funny librals campaign on the backs of the broken, and down troden on how they are going to take from the rich and give to them, but when it comes to people who really have no control over the dispare they are living in, they just turn thier backs on them.
The bottom line is that our forfathers trusted in the people, not the institution called government. The librals don't trust people, the thing that it is thier God given right to dictate to the rest of us on how we should live our lives. Hence the control they are trying to impose on us with all this green nonsense. Let's make it mandatory for every one to drive no more faster then 55. Not because it is safer, but because it will save on the ammount of oil we all use. You know what you want to save on gas, then you drive 55 or some small car, or invest in some new fuel.
Anyway getting back on topic. UC I think that you did a great job pointing out that it does not matter what side of the isle that these politicians are on. They all play the same game (So much for the change machine). They move to what ever side of the issues that they feel they need in order to get elected. Once they are elected who knows what they are going to do. Problem is that there heads are stuck so far up the special intreast groups arses that they can't see the light.
All we can do is pray that some day soon some politician will see the light and start getting this Government straight before all hell breaks lose. I truly do believe that there is a breaking point, and that is before we go to complete solicialism like these librals and Barack wants to take us.
I agree. All politicians "flip flop" to an extent. However, I think there is a major difference between looking at the facts, rationally analyzing the situation and making a serious policy change--versus changing positions only when it is politically expedient to do so, as Obama has done. Now that he's no longer trying to placate the MoveOn.org folks, he is drifting toward the center. He realizes that even though the Republican brand is hurting, the U.S. is very much a center-right country.
Jarrod,
On the first 3 paragraphs, all I can cay is "seconded," but I still like to pick their brains and see where they're coming from; we all have noble intentions, but we just have radically different perceptions of what America would best represent the will of the people. This perception is, of course, completely dependent on what we want personally and nothing else. That said, I still think we're right and they're wrong
On your final paragraph, the only change will come after unfettered Democrat control of all angles of government. This will force the Republican party through a reformation of sorts, re-identifying with their roots and the people. The intervening years of the Democrats completely screwing everything up will then help the Republicans reassert control, thus re inflating their egos. Thus the cycle of corruption will begin anew. At least I hope that's how it'll work. I'm not in the mood to see a civil war in my lifetime...
You raise a couple good points:
'Flip-flopping happens'
'What matters is how often -and why - it happens'
I'm more worried about the politico who never changes a position, even when circumstances change. That's not someone who should be making decisions.
About who is the bigger intellectual acrobat, I pass. Thankfully, it's a few months before the election - there's still time to dig into the records.
Can we even technically call NObama or MCCain "flip-floppers" anymore? Really. In my experience, people shell out $4 for a pair of flip-flops and then won't stop wearing them until the strap breaks or they actually wear the entire sole down until their basically just barefoot. If you want to use a word that means someone who will-nilly seems to change their mind based on little to no information, perhaps we should be calling them "crackheads at Burger King." Those guys are always twitching and lying and trying to trick you into thinking that a cheeseburger meal comes with a vial. I'm comfortable with this discourse. Would the junior senator from Ill Noise please get up, you have a collect call from your baby's momma. Celebrate 2008 with a shirt: from http://www.cafepress.com/nobamanoway.
There is a deep difference between a former POW, captured in action fighting against comunist state(another terror builder/helper system, publicly declared, by their own words, many global accomplishes)
This global system of terror logistics feeds from politicians even insitu USA, it's easy to recognize and point them:
-they recognize 'legaly" terror related "liders" and build "ways" to sytematicly support them, ex: chavez, cuba, hammas, sandinists, manuelnoriega, etc., all where "recognized&legalized" with all rights by the anti-war on Iraq...
-they mega flipflopp but keep what the terrorists need against the USA security (and the world if there are no Bush or Mcain kind of liders to stop them, bringing easily more 911s opportunities)
-they are all related to leftists, marxists, anti-God, oilprices high, sexschools with gangland culture instead God, mega$candal cities, or more anti-war on iraq... to help Iran take easier iraq... and Iraq's oil...
-they have a massive terror logistic civilian army, for any potencial or opportunity to fisicaly invade the USA, borders, pensions, labor, education... and change History of victory for defeat (ex: Vietnam)
-they are predictable on terror help, that's why BHObama C H A N G E S now, risking to loose the anti-American supporters, programed by this terror logistic
-They deny any "old global plan" to repace public officials for terror helpers to "create sanctuaries" (ex: Miami's war on terror supporters have a heavier burden than their logistic people on jobs, family "legalities if they plant you political family related to terror to rule)
-their people are decades experienced programed, they never stop... until have miracle surprises like anabelenmontes
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dude, dont expect anyone to ever understand what you are saying, because you make very little sense.
Mega terror flip flopping, in times of war, giving what Iran, Cuba, Venezuela, hammas, etc. want and need from the allies are very, very skerry and dagnerous.
911 opportinity came by doing the things BHObama have mega declared about terror states.
You can't unilateral desarm the USA, you can't live Iran swearing to vaporize anybody, and testing long range missiles as a terror propaganda, unchalenched, roaming free thru middle east helping insurgents and keep killing US/allies soldiers and civilians, + Iraq oil. Iraq's oil is a good reason to have gone there,
If the terrorists see any "friendly enemy" they keep publicly motivating their supporters, Iran's nuclear public systematic terror plan attacks are proove BHObama ALWAYS will help them by "just" equalize these terrorists to the same level than the ARMY on rights and capabilities thru a simple "dialog" instead a surrender.
BHObama's all the way declarations on Iran and the rest of the terrorists, are their only hope, even if he "megaflipfloppes" and calls for ONLY BUREAWcratics "action reduced to paper diplomatic sanctions",.
Sadam ignored 16 ULTIMATUMS not "from Bush", but from ($adam's) UN, of course)
thanks heathenheater for not understanding, seek for help, I'm doing my job well.
don't worry, Rush, Sean, Gleenbeck, Levin, Savage, mostly Foxnews, Ann Coulter, laura ingraham, laura Ingle, even Joyce from left, ReaganAmericans, the allies, many, so many people understand me crystal clear.
I don't write to you to understand.
read castro's toiletpaper granma, there you will easily understand want you seek to read, and post there too
castro's toiletpaper granma.........
you are really jumping of the deep end
Seriously. Just post in your native language and we'll run it through an auto translator. My eyes are bleeding here...
So, reaper, you and many enter here, some "agree" with the conserv. opinion, and "speak" "like them", even reaper accepts democrats are the cause of the main problems, but hides liberal control of the dcn, and the worst on "my" anti-terrorist very experienced on urban batlles of the war on terror ideas, the not fisical war, the intelectual one.
And helping the enemy, by infiltration and traitors, the actual liberal is fully self-declared helper (by giving the terror state the help they need from the USA gov.) even well recorded "recognizing chavezes, torrijos, noriegas, sandinists, hamas, etc., and friendly enemies of the rest: norvietnam, norcorea, ussr, cuba, sadam, iran, syria...
reaper I just realized you said it yourself: "That said, I still think we're right and they're wrong" + a happy yellow face?, cheap treak, on this site?
(+ "my" opinions: a very experienced eMedia anti-terrorist pursued by terror logistics, actualy even), but a "work, adhonorem, by the way) that helped to catch "problems" like anabelenmontes, manuelnoriega, etc.), and you'll never even believe "what else"...
of course "I" make "no sence" for reaper, heathenheather, and others, remember, use castro's toiletpaper granma, blog there, the terrorists you help would "get close" to you, and chatt "closer", giving you tthe "chance" to "taste their danger"...
by the way, "sence" is what I feel, repeating these things some other better than me inform about, by a better English lenguage, like Levin, Rush and many, many others, "like satin stars on the sky"...
by the way, miami gral attorney, and panamanian general procurator, have the same "politics" games, all anti-war on terror, and accept cuba's terrorist state (and help eliminating their battle for the ideas enemies"), legaly, as a panamanian prd party "equal law enforcement" and "philosophy" for "a selected justice point of view on crime prosecution, and... terror...)
examples of terror logistics are (already e publicly denounced) childdren&family coyote (police related car tags bringing children even) lourdes suarez, martinez single, pedro galvez, alberto at alfred karr...'s (next letters, next gang sound-torture, legal by miami authorities, ok nazialfred?, gangeroalberto? judges pedrasa, ga burns, chr. perez even protected a self-declared farc terrorist stealing my ID, understand these things reaper?, on American soil?, and "say we are right and wrong" is all you teach?
reaper, we want to hear (read) your opinion an anabelenmontes's system, castro system, manuel noriega's system, hugochavez's system....
ilustrate us with "your magnificence", your "eminence"...
Love reading this site but people are taking these arguments way out of context.
Thought I would post a funny and neutral video a friend sent me:
http://www.236.com/feed/2008/07/16/jib_jabs_made_another_video_wh_7760.php