Home Invasion Video: Mormon’s getting bullied

December 3rd, 2008 Urban Conservative

This blasphemous anti-Proposition 8 ad really is flat-out scaremongering religious bigotry against the Mormon Church.  While I don’t agree with their doctrine, Mormons are by far the nicest people I have ever met and they hold true to their beliefs.  If the LDS church had produced an ad similar to this showing a gay couple barging into someone’s house stealing, seducing their children or demanding to see whether they voted for or against prop 8, it would be about on this same level of stupidity. I appreciate that one might oppose the LDS church, but making Mormons out to be a fascist Gestapo is beyond reality.  Would they do this to the Muslim community because I can tell you that Muslims are 100% more strict when it comes to homosexuality; which is punishable by death in some countries?

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Rating: 2.6/5 (43 votes cast)

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  • alicia
    I am a gay woman and I can't stand you christians.  you NEED to stay out of my life and our government.  you are still living in the past. please evolve the rest of society has....

    you are a bunch of judgmental and bigoted people; who can't even live up to the morals that you force on others.
  • jane simmons
    yeah, well this isn't a muslim country bigot!
  • Lauren
    Alicia,

    True Christianity isn't about a list of rules or a set of morals. True Christianity is about a relationship between an unworthy sinful person and their Saviour. It's about a God who loved you so much He sent His Son to earth to live a perfect life and die a cruel death on the Cross so you could live with Him in Heaven one day.

    No matter what you hear, God does not hate you. He loves you more than you could know. But that does not mean He approves of your sin (which is what He calls any breaking of His law—lying, cheating, stealing, whatever...it's all equal).

    So anyone who tells you God hates you or discriminates against you for being homosexual is not being Christ-like. Read the New Testament. It's filled with stories of how Christ reached out to all types of people. He loves everyone. As He wrote in John 3:16, " For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth on Him should not perish but have everlasting life." Those words "the world" includes you and me both.

    So while people say that God and Christianity hate gays, it is not true. If anything, He loves you just as much as He loves a Christian.
  • Dude
    well said Lauren .... I was just about to say some rude things until I read your post...
  • Joe
    Wow, so we Mormons just got called Christians by a rabid opponent! Usually even our fellow Christians have problems with that claim. Thanks, jane simmons!

    And you may be right that this isn't a Muslim country...but what does that have to do with anything? This certainly isn't a Mormon country either, is it? At least, not by my reckoning. And even if you want to make the dubious argument that Christians deserve to be slandered and rioted against (and yes, these riots are hate riots against a group, not peaceful protests in support of an issue), why single out the Mormons? Really, it's because these cowards find them an easier target because of their "fringe" status in Christianity. But when it comes down to it, all that happened was that the Church made it clear to the members where its doctrine fell on this issue (in case the words in the Bible weren't clear enough), and the individual members supported the cause via means that are not only legal, but actually encouraged by the system of democracy. Does that make them worthy of such hate? Because they exercised their civil rights? For anyone to say so, especially when complaining about his own rights being withheld, is the worst kind of hypocrite.
  • Jason
    Porp 8 passed and in THIS country majority rules and you must abide by those rules.
  • Bud Mullins
    I am a Christian and I don't believe Christians need to be judging anyone.  However, my scriptures tell me in plain words that YOU will be judged according to your works.  That is not me judging, that is from a higher source than me or you.

    You choose to do something, you pay for it.  ALL of us will be judged in the here after - YOU CAN TAKE THAT TO THE BANK!  If you choose NOT to believe in a GOD, YOU must pay for that sin.  Most SINNERS proclaim there is no GOD. simply to justify the things they do in their own life.  Really, so they can live the life they are living without it effecting their minds.  It does not matter that you sin in the eyes of the Christian, it does matter that you are sinning in the eyes of GOD!  YOU WILL PAY FOR YOUR SINS REGARDLESS OF WHAT THAT SIN IS!
  • davidwwalters
    Bud Mullins asserts:
    <<Most SINNERS proclaim there is no GOD. simply to justify the things they do in their own life.>>
    i can only speak for this sinner, but i proclaim there is no god simply because of how believers use god to justify hatred & bigotry against others.
  • davidwwalters
    OK....i should have said MOST believers use god to justify hatred & bigotry against others.
    -excuse me!
  • Haley
    Comment to Alicia -- You are so lucky to live in the United States Alicia!   One of the greatest things about this country is that we have freedom OF religion —not freedom FROM religion.  You are free to love or hate anything you want. 

    Love anything
    Hate anything
    The effect on others might be negligible
    The effect on you — monumental.
    ~~~~~~

    So why are they attacking the Mormons and by association white conservatives?  The Mormons are a soft target. 

    It is called damage control wedge politics.   Why?  It’s not politically correct to protest the largest demographic that voted for Prop 8 (look at the demographics to figure that out for yourself).   I’ll go further – I’m willing to bet the producers of that commercial don’t have the chutzpa to get real and go to the Baptist churches in Crenshaw to protest.  I know that’s not politically correct, and I don’t encourage or condone it, but this is the elephant in the room that everyone is pretending isn’t there.  It was a cowardly move on their part to go after the Mormons. 

    It’s also strangely reminiscent of the fascism and intolerance of the mid to late 20th century.   Black lists of supporters of prop 8, riot level protests are occurring, bibles are being burnt, churches are being disrupted, an elderly couple were beaten up because they had a sign in their yard supporting Prop 8., an old lady carrying a cross was abused.   The floor manager at one of my favorite Mexican Restaurants – El Coyote –  gave $100 to support prop 8.  As a result, that person and restaurant were threatened, bullied, boycotted and vandalized for that persons religious beliefs. 

    Have we been transported back in time to 1930’s Germany?

    It’s all because of a word. 

    That little word, “marriage.”

    It’s just a word.

    Or is it?

    Californians voted on this same issue in 2000.  It was passed by 61%.  In May 2008 – four of our judges repealed it — allowing for same sex marriages.  It should have gone into the legislature at that point, but it didn’t.   Gov. Schwarzenegger signed off on it.   It was then put back on the ballot.  And again the people of California voted the same way.  We voted on it twice and twice we voted against allowing same sex marriage as a whole.  I don’t agree with it and I’m saddened by it, but I respect our democracy. 

    Marriage issues were on the ballots of 30 states.  30 states had the same outcome.

    Right now in California – same sex couples have all the legal benefits of marriage in civil union.   The problem is that little word, “marriage.”    Why do we believe in the word, “marriage?”  Why do people want to use that word rather than civil union?  It functions the same, it has all the same benefits from the government.  What is it, then?  Is it the aspect of making the union of two people part of something bigger, something spiritual?

    How else can you specify what “it” is without consulting religious beliefs?  I don’t know.  I really don’t.   I just looked up the history of marriage.  Whether we like it or not, marriage is religious.  It has been for centuries. 

    If Prop 8 passed solely because the majority of voters are homophobic – then civil unions wouldn’t be legal.  It is a completely religious fight over a word and it shouldn’t have even entered the government arena in the first place.

    So if “marriage” is a religious belief  -- a Christian belief  - a Mormon belief among others religions– and you’re not a religious person or you hate  Mormons or Christians – why on earth would you want to participate in religious practice?  Why would you care?  Why not just make up your own religion that includes same sex marriage?  You know what?  You’re free to do that in this country!!!    Just as the Mormons are free to believe that marriage is between a man and a woman or several women. 

    It doesn’t add up.  

    It seems like it should be a non-issue.  But – I also bend pretty libertarian on the government governing personal beliefs.  It’s none of their business and it shouldn’t be a government issue.  We’ve got bigger problems than this. 

    If the government has to be involved, get it on the ballot again, spread good will, not hate.  Don’t bag on the Mormons.  Respect democracy.
  • Lipstick Underground
    The reason prop 8 passed is the opposite of this video...Christian and spiritual agnostics feared creative lawyers using "equal protection" to force churches & businesses to provide services to the gay community that violates their basic beliefs. Much akin to how the Americans With Disabilities Act has been abused with frivolous lawsuits.

    If the gay community could craft legislation for gay marriage that included a kind of bill of rights for churches, institutions, businesses, and individuals that don't want any part of gay marriage, then it would probably pass. Think outside the box rather than attacking Christians...we are a nation weary of infighting.
  • James
    The bigotry and hypocrisy presented by liberals these days is astounding.  They are contradicting what they supposedly stand for, open-mindedness and tolerance of all viewpoints.  While they do not believe the morals and values presented by the Bible, they should still respect those who do.  Additionally, the creators of this ad can present their pro-Gay marriage arguement without presenting pure hatred to those who stand for the will of God.
  • Bud Mullins
    Comment to davidwalters.

    My comment stated "MOST SINNERS" not all...  There are some who fall into the same category as that of the teachings of Radical Islam.  For these few, there is no hope they will ever enter the Kingdom of God.  THEY ARE LOST!

    Comment to James.

    Our society has been infiltrated with radical people spewing their beliefs on others to the extent that there may not be much hope of ever resuscitating it to a normal state...  EVER!
  • Titus Hunt
    yeah!  i am known for saying things others won't so here goes.  why are the Mormon's being targeted in the first place.  there were other groups that voted for Prop 8 -- blacks being one of the groups!  i want to know why gays are not targeting them?  hahahahah!  i think we know why!  so they are being very judgemental in their choices of who they are trying to place the blame on!  they just try to place blame on the group that would not put up as much of a fight.  gays should be talking to the black leaders of the US and see where that will get them!  hahahahah!  quite stupid!
  • HvySlpr
    "i proclaim there is no god simply because of how believers use god to justify hatred & bigotry against others."

    I know people who use God to justify compassion, charity, love, respect, morality, community, and self-sacrifice.  So, if existence of evil proves the non-existence of God, wouldn't the existence of good prove there is a God? 
    If you disagree your simply illogical (if I give you the benefit of the doubt of being truthful in your above statement).
    You and others like you are also bigots, fostering a completely ridiculous stereotype not even devout Christians believe (that no sinner should/can be loved by a true Christian). 
    The Catholic church consistenly teaches us to hate the sin and love the sinner.   Jesus said that he came not to save the righteous, but the sinner.
  • Dora
    because, Titus- the Mormon church put over $20 million towards the vote against gays and civil rights- that's why.  No organized "black group" made an effort in this way.  It's pretty simple.  Even for you, I should think.
  • Dora
    Our society has been infiltrated with radical people spewing their beliefs on others (like radical fundamentalist "Christians" perhaps?) to the extent that there may not be much hope of ever resuscitating it to a normal state...  EVER!  

    Just exactly what is a "normal state" to you. Buddy??  Did it ever occur to you that your beliefs are looked upon by others as "radical"?  You supposed "Christians" are just in name only- let me know when you actually live what you claim to believe.
  • Titus Hunt
    The Mormon Church has the right to give as much money has they want to whatever cause they believe in as long as it is legal.  It is their right.  It is their freedom!  the black community has just as much influence over people and choose not to give money as a group.  we don't know if they gave individually or not.  i don't really think money had everything to do with it but the Mormons exercised their right and should be able to express it without the harrassment they are getting now from the gay community.  having a solid belief system and good morales that you want to teach to your children does matter however.  therefore, the majority of people of CA have said they do not want gay marriage and that should be respected.  Just because i think obama is an idiot doesn't mean i'm trying to disrupt the democrats' organizations to the extent of  harrassment.  they have a right to believe what they want and i have the right to believe what i want.  gays will never get their point across by targeting churches or groups of people for their beliefs!
  • Zoltaen
    The bigotry and hypocrisy presented by liberals these days is astounding.  They are contradicting what they supposedly stand for, open-mindedness and tolerance of all viewpoints.  While they do not believe the morals and values presented by the Bible, they should still respect those who do.  Additionally, the creators of this ad can present their pro-Gay marriage arguement without presenting pure hatred to those who stand for the will of God.

    I'm not sure how gay non-Christians getting married is any business of the Christian community.  if you, as a Christian, don't want to marry a person of the same sex, then don't.  Someone else being gay and wanting the same legal rights of union as heterosexuals doesn't impact you at all.
  • Titus Hunt
    The bible does not allow gays to get married.  that is what the Christians are rightly standing up for.  They (we) have every right to do so peacefully in this free society.  the folks who are for prop 8 are not causing the trouble.  it is the other side that feels hatred and bad behavior is the way to show their dislike for the law.  the democratic vote was for prop 8 and now it should be accepted!  if the gays want to attempt to change peoples' minds, this is not the way to do it!  it sets their movement back 100 years!
  • Dora
    Titus- once again you miss the point.   You are saying that because you and your bible don't think something should be- there should be laws against that something. 
    Why is it that you cannot see the flaw in your thinking?
  • Bud Mullins
    Alicia, if all of Society has evolved and now think like you, why is it you still having trouble selling your way of life?

    Besides, what is wrong with doing good in the world?  I have never seen a church go out and protest against good or God!  I have seen evil protest against both!  Hummm, wonder where you and I fit in?  I guess that separates us...
  • Rich
    Getting back to the original blog post: this ad is clearly over-the-top.  It's a television ad.  They're trying to make a point.  But blasphemous?  What's blasphemous about it?

    Dora already made the point (see comment 16) about the LDS's contribution to "Yes On 8."  It was not a black, muslim, or baptist organization that chipped in $20 million to what, in my mind, was a misleading, fear-mongering campaign intended to reinforce the idea that gays and lesbians are somehow dangerous and intent on perverting the youth of America.

    The part about this that irks me is that it's far too late for all this.  The election is over.  Protesting christians, mormons, or anyone else isn't going to change the results.  That should have been done back in September and October when it could have had an impact.  But I think GLBT Californians honestly believed their straight freinds, neighbors, musical directors, etc. were on their side.  After the election, there was an incredible feeling of betrayal.

    The only hope for LGBT Californians looking to secure their right to marry at this point is to appeal to reason through the legislature and / or courts based on the rationale that the rights of a small number of individuals (or in this case, couples) should never be subject to popular vote.

    As a side note: I'm consistently confused why most of the comments on this and (most) other conservative blogs (that I have read) are so religiously fueled, whether in favor or opposed.  Can't someone be a conservative and a muslim?  A jew?  A mormon?  An atheist?  You don't have to be a christian to be moral.   And you certainly don't have to be a christian to be fiscally responsible or in favor of small government.
  • Titus Hunt
    Dora--as usual you are missing my point.  i was saying that Mormons believe in the bible and that is what the Bible says.  They have a right to put money into something they believe in just as the celebrities poured money into the other side.  surprise, surprise!  i don't fault the celebrities for their thoughts even though i disagree with them and everyone should have the right to donate to the legal causes they see fit without fear of their rights being violated!  you want your cake and eat it too!  i think it is fair for both sides to donate money for their causes!  the people have spoken and the gays need to shut up, move somewhere where gay marriage is legal (glad it is not my state), or go through the justice system!  Mormons/Christians have rights too!  gays are not helping their cause any by their own actions!  if the gays go after the Mormons, they should treat everyone equally and go after every other group that voted for prop 8.  singling one group out for doing what they believe is encouraging people to turn even more against gays "right to marriage" ideas!
  • Dora
    ...and the world continues to march forward... while Titus sits in her own pew.

    http://www.newsweek.com/id/172399
  • Dora
    Buddy:
    "... if all of Society has evolved and now think like you, why is it you still having trouble selling your way of life?"

    Selling??.. clink in the above link Buddy-  you will see that it is YOU that has the problem. 
    YOU don't vote on MY civil rights.

  • Titus Hunt
    Dora--your insults are getting you no where.  these blogs are for discussions and you are exactly the kind of person most of us don't want our kids to be around.  Hopefully enough parents are seeing how people like you are spreading hate.  Maybe teaching children to be kind and respectful of others will eventually drowned out people like you!  you are a dime a dozen and we see what the world has become as a result.  Now i'm back to the reason conservative blog discussions because this is a conservative blog!
  • Titus Hunt
    Dora-- i glanced at that article in Newsweek and it doesn't surprise me in the least!  you think that i don't know this world is going to hell in a hand basket?  it is obvious!  i'll just stick to raising my children with morals and values and watch as children in the school system and elsewhere are struggling with life because their parents teach the "anything goes" philosophy!  it is obvious where that has gotten us!  sex in streets is not too far off.  i don't care what people do in their own homes but don't bring it out to the public!
  • Conservative Thinker
    Two things are never to be questioned...

    1)  Homosexuals are naturally gay.
    2)  Because it's natural, it's good.

    I disagree with both points.
  • Dora
    You will be hard pressed to find a single homosexual who "turned" gay.
    It does not happen.  Period.
    It's not a matter of "because it's natural, it's good", Thinker-  gays are a fact of life like water and earth.  What part of that do you not understand?
  • davidwwalters
    Morality and sexual orientation are 2 different things.  A straight person can be amoral as well as immoral.  Why is it so difficult to understand that gay people have as much morality as the next person.....?
  • Titus Hunt
    i can just say that i know people who are gay.  They are great folks but that doesn't mean i believe that bullying people to see their side for gay marriage is right.
  • BenV
    The government should not allow any marriage. Gay straight, whatever. It is proven that people that live together and support each other keep each other within moral check and make a society that functions better. The government should encourage this by giving tax dependencies, hospital visitation rights, etc (all rights currently given in marriages) to any two people as a civil union. It should not matter who these people are sexually attracted to. Let religions give out marriages, keep the government to civil unions.
    Civil: legal

    Union: More then one person working together



    Keep church and state separate.
  • Bud Mullins
    Dora, you seem to be hitting me more than others.  I hope that means my words are effective to the intention of them...

    When you say "All People" or "All Christians" means you just bit off an awful lot to chew on.  Now, "Some People" or Some Christians" would fit a lot better than including all.

    The very Core Values of this country was fonded on Christian Principals.  Do you not know anything about your history?  Read a little of it and you will understand more of the phrases that has been said in these posts.  I agree with Titus, never will outraged anger accomplish anything in a normal conversation...

    I mean it when I said Christians need not judge anyone, because me, you and all will be judged by our works, remember that.
  • davidwwalters
    <<The very Core Values of this country was fonded on Christian Principals.>>
    -Wrong!

    it was founded on the idea of seperatopn of church and state........
    -Where, and how many times is god or christianity mentioned in our constitution?
  • Anonymous
    I'm agnostic-leaning-atheist person and i'm willing to coexist with all these churches and religious-type-a-people who believe a mindful and human-like god created a son and sent him down to save mankind. So, with that, why can't you religious nuts tolerate the gays and, you gays out there- stop being so hateful towards the religious nuts. Let's just pass a legal union law and split the difference, eh?
  • Dino_V
    Awww - gay angst.

    News flash - Marriage is not a right - get used to it.  Sorry that the majority(even liberal) disagrees with the concept of homosexual marriage.  Marriage is between a MAN and a WOMAN, deal with it.  Homosexuals are not denied the capablity to get married, a gay man can still marry a woman.  Why should a gay man be allowed to marry another man? How is that good for society someone tell me please. 

    I wonder if the guy that made this commercial is the same fruit that stomped on that old ladys cross during the gay march in Cali, my guess, probably.
  • davidwwalters
    Dino_V worries about a '"fruit" getting married:
    >>Why should a gay man be allowed to marry another man?>>
    -a loving couple should have  the same benefits as any other wedded couple.......it's that simple moron.
  • BenV
    Dino_V - 


    How is that good for society?
    Its the same concept as the "small town values" that the republicans are always talking about. A couple that lives together keeps each other in a moral check (and this is good for society). You are less likely to do something immoral if you know that you are going to have to tell you significant other what you did. The government should encourage this as much as possible.
  • JarrodM
    This subject always makes me laugh because people always seem to get all of the true facts mixed up.

    Fact 1 What Lauren said in the 3rd post on this thread is dead on. We are all sinners, we all have out own sins and we choose to deal with them in our own way. God will judge you when you get to heaven.
    Fact 2. Marraige is a union between a man and a woman. Marriage is holy sacrament, that government decided to use as a way to determine eligability for taxes and other social programs. So if you want to have a civil union then go get one, the church should not have to change the meaning of this word.
    Fact 3. The constatution protects your right to be Gay, it does not give you the right to demand that the Government, and the people in this country be OK with it. Being Gay may be the greatest thing in the world for you, but for others it is imoral. People have the right to decide what is moral for them, you are going to have accept that not all people are going to share your morals.
    Fact 4. The more and more that they Gay community pushes their agenda in the face of everyone, including the church, the worse of a name the community is going to get. I would suggest if the person means that much to you, live with them, enjoy life with them, grow old with them, leave the rest of us alone, because frankly 90% of the people in this country could care less about what you do in your bed room, and the other 10% will never change.
  • Dora
    "Jarrod"


    1)  I am not a sinner so you speak only for yourself and the people with whom you hang around.
    2)  A Marriage performed by a Judge is not a "holy sacrament"  but they are legal marriages and unions.  If you are a man and a woman who got married in - let's say, Arizona- you can travel to Maine or Nebraska or Wisconsin or any other state and will still be married, in the eyes of the law.  If you are gay and got married in Mass.  you are only allowed certain rights in THAT STATE.  In any other state, you are two people traveling together. 
    3)  When are you going to understand that it's not a matter of "morality"- it's who we are.  We probably don't understand it any better than you do as to why we were born this way.  You think it's easy?? You think it's "fun"??  You think it's the "greatest thing in the world" to go through life dealing with the likes of you???  You think we'd elect to do this??  What the hell is the matter with you?  Use your head for something besides a rack for your hat.
    4)  "...90% of the people in this country could care less about what you do in your bed room,"  Oh really???  Why do you bring this up?  Has it ever occured to you that gays have the same lives as you do?  We take out the rubbish, feed the kids, pay the mortgage, cook dinner, eat breakfast, and make sure the kids have shoes on their feet and lunch money in their pocket.  We help with homework, pay our taxes, contribute to Goodwill, walk the dog, clean the litter box, cut the grass, and gossip over the back fence with our neighbors.  We sing in the church choir, shop at Macy's, go to McDonalds, and wax our cars. 
    Just why is it that you cannot get over what may or may not occur in my bedroom?  I sure as hell don't spend one moment on how you use your sleeping quarters or with whom you spend time there.  What is your fixation over this?  You are, no doubt, one of those males who just cannot get enough of women on women X-rated films though, aren't you!  Girls gone wild for the price of a drink.  You'd be all over that.  I hate to break it to you buckco, but those films are made by men for men and bear no resemblence to actual facts or life whatsoever.
    So sorry to disillusion you.  The only one here with an agenda is YOU.  YOU want to stuff your religious dogma down the throats of everyone.  Thanks, but no thanks.  I know where the fridge is and if i want bologna I know where to find it.
  • Dora
    and, sick twisted Jarrod- I will put my morality up against yours any day of the week and will still be better than you.  My children would never treat your children the way you treat me.  My parents did not teach us hate the way your parents apparently taught you.  Get along little doggie.
    Get along.  Find yourself a good book and learn something why dontcha.
  • Dino_V
    Dora sorry society doesnt want gay marriage - Marriage is not a "right" if you want to get married, marry a man you can do that.

    Its not about love - I love my dog, should I be able to marry my dog?  Marriage is a religious institution with government overlay - I dont think most religions approve of homosexual behavior in general for obvious reasons.

    Dora calm down we dont hate you, we just dont approve of homosexual behavior.  Tell me how two men having anal sex is a healthy behavior and tell me how this benefits society please, go ahead, im waiting.
  • Bud Mullins
    Dora, I'll wait for your explaination also...
  • davidwwalters
    Many christians may say they do not hate those who deviate from their supposed norms, yet their actions speak different......when they consign others to 2nd class status, it shows their contempt.  Weather one is gay or an atheist, or just a liberal, it is all the same.....let's make life difficult for them.  I doubt your Jesus would approve of your hypocritical behavior.
  • Jarrod
    Dora,

    First you have to let go of your hate, second it is obvious if you think that you are not a sinner that you have no understanding about religion. People that choose your life style can still be Christians. God loves all of his children because he realizes that all of his children are sinners. It is to bad that you have taken such a militant view of your lifestyle choices. No on here is telling you to stop living your life. I respect your choice I understand that you did not just decide that you want to live this way. What you do with another adult in your bedroom is your choice. The issue that most of us have is that we don't want to have it up in our faces. We don't need parades marching down our streets promoting sexual acts of any type.

    You have the right to be gay, you have the right to not be harrased because of your lifestyle choice, but that does not mean that you have the right to be married.
  • Jarrod
    How have followers of Jesus made life difficult for any one David. We all here  already know that you have some sort of adverse reaction to God David. But don't project your missunderstandings of Religion on all Christians.
  • davidwwalters
    Jarrod,
    -there isn't any misunderstanding of the christian religion on my part......hell, one of my hobbies is the study of early Christianity.
    And what hasn't changed in that theology is the exclusiveness of it's theology, which is the centerpiece of this argument.
    I rejected my faith, and it was a well thought out process.......it was nothing i took lightly either.  I was baptized&confirmed in the Lutheran Church, i was married to a Baptist and joined her church.  Yet it was the exclusive and selfishness of the basic church doctrine that led to my rejection of the faith.
    <<How have followers of Jesus made life difficult for any one David(?)>>
    -By the exclusive nature of christianity as practiced by many of the believers......the idea that if you don't "accept the Lord Jesus Christ as your personal savior" that you should be isolated from society (society as many of these christians see it).
  • JarrodM
    I think that you missunderstand, the core belief of Christianity. Your relationship with God is your relationship. The church is only their to help you find your path to God, and support you. If your church was being exclusionary that is not the fault of the religion but the people practicing it in that Church. In fact you can be Christian and not go to a church.
  • Dino_V
    Hey David lets over react a little more - In practically all states gays cant marry a same sex partner.  Thats it.  Gays share equal rights with straights in all circumstances, give me an example where gays do not share equal rights?

    David - Marriage is not a "right" that is where you fail.

    Becuase you are pissed that gays cant marry a same sex partner you decide that this means that "they are second class citizens".  If gays are second class citizens they are IN YOUR MIND, no one elses.  Care to explain how gays are "second class status?"

    From what I understand atheists and liberals also share equal rights with everyone else in this country, including satanists and pagans.  Can you please explain how atheists and liberals have "second class status? in this country?

    If you want to talk about Hate davey boy lets do a comparison - I want you to look at the nativity scene erected at the capital over there in Washington state which is causing such a controversy, see it? Now I want you to compare that nativity scene with the atheist sign adjacent to it.  Tell me who is the one that hates David, go ahead, I am waiting for you to explain that one away buddy boy.
  • davidwwalters
    Dino V.....
    Gay's have every right straights enjoy?
    Are you certain of this or are you just saying this for rhetorical flair?
    They certainly cannot serve as Arab linguists in the U.S. Army, can they?
    (not that we need Arab linguists, huh?)
    It isn't so much i resent individual christians.....i have many christian friends.  It's the leaders of christianity, and the preachers who use the pulpit to focus negative feelings toward those they deem "lost", such as atheists and gays.  In this country, try getting elected without some expression of faith, no matter how bogus that expression may be.
    -and one more thing DinoV....
    <<If you want to talk about Hate davey boy......>>
    don't refer to me anonymously in such a small way my friend.....
    -i doubt you'd do it to my face, so let's not let it happen on this site either, OK?  It certainly sounds rather hateful to me my christian friend.  Perhaps your sense of christian charity and acceptance has been undermined by one of those hateful preachers i referred to.
    JarrodM 49.........
    <<Your relationship with God is your relationship. The church is only their to help you find your path to God>>
    -So why is so much energy spent criticizing gays in those pulpits?
    Why do so many church's engage in hateful judgments of those outside their sanctuaries?
  • Dino_V
    DAVID --

    Is that the best you can come up with?  Let me ask you a question - is serving as an arab linguist a "RIGHT" lol? Obviously not, hey david, my friend is missing a testicle, he cant serve in the army either.  Because my friend is missing a testicle, he cant serve as an arab linguist, i dont think he considers himself a second class citizen.  What is your point - David, is that really the best you can come up with is to throw that stupid example out and claim gays are being discrimated against and are second class status because A) They cant get married(which is not a right) and B) They cannot serve as arab linguists in the US army(Which is not a right either).  Therefore A+B = second class status in America - you are a pathetic moron that is attempting to make an absurd argument, everyone that is not gay can see your argument is absurd.  If that is the best you can do I can see why gays are having a problem in this country.

    Do you think Americans want a gay or an atheist running the country?  I hope not, Americas founding fathers were religious and like it our not this country was built on judeo-christian VALUES and MORALITY - its called HISTORY - America was not created by gay people and atheists(Thank God) Luckily many Americans still share those judeo-christian values and they dont look fondly upon someone that stands on a podium and says "There is no God, anyone who thinks there is a God is a blind sheep". You seem to think that its only Christians that insult Atheists when in reality i can work both ways.  As for the issue of being gay well as anyone can clearly see Christianity is diametrically opposed to homosexuality.  The only way homosexuals are ever going to find acceptance by Christians is to change their behavior OR do what they are trying to do now, Homosexuals are trying to get into positions of power so they can legislate from the bench via judicial activism and change laws OR get into positions of power within the church and try to change what religion actually stands for which is a scary thought, look at what happened to the episcopal church, a pathetic example of what happens when you start pandering to the far left. 

    Ok David I will you call you David from now on - sorry.
  • Dora
    Dino- (as in the dinosaur it seems- ever so correct in how it reflects your ancient thought process)

    once again, for the utterly uninformed like Dino:


    Hospital visitation. Married couples have the automatic right to visit each other in the hospital and make medical decisions. Same-sex couples can be denied the right to visit a sick or injured loved one in the hospital.
    Social Security benefits. Married people receive Social Security payments upon the death of a spouse. Despite paying payroll taxes, gay and lesbian workers receive no Social Security survivor benefits – resulting in an average annual income loss of $5,528 upon the death of a partner.
    Health insurance. Many public and private employers provide medical coverage to the spouses of their employees, but most employers do not provide coverage to the life partners of gay and lesbian employees. Gay employees who do receive health coverage for their partners must pay federal income taxes on the value of the insurance.
    Estate taxes. A married person automatically inherits all the property of his or her deceased spouse without paying estate taxes. A gay or lesbian taxpayer is forced to pay estate taxes on property inherited from a deceased partner.
    Retirement savings. While a married person can roll a deceased spouse’s 401(k) funds into an IRA without paying taxes, a gay or lesbian American who inherits a 401(k) can end up paying up to 70 percent of it in taxes and penalties.
    Family leave. Married workers are legally entitled to unpaid leave from their jobs to care for an ill spouse. Gay and lesbian workers are not entitled to family leave to care for their partners.
    Immigration rights. Bi-national families are commonly broken up or forced to leave the country to stay together. The reason: U.S. immigration law does not permit American citizens to petition for their same-sex partners to immigrate.
    Nursing homes. Married couples have a legal right to live together in nursing homes. Because they are not legal spouses, elderly gay or lesbian couples do not have the right to spend their last days living together in nursing homes.
    Home protection. Laws protect married seniors from being forced to sell their homes to pay high nursing home bills; gay and lesbian seniors have no such protection.
    Pensions. After the death of a worker, most pension plans pay survivor benefits only to a legal spouse of the participant. Gay and lesbian partners are excluded from such pension benefits.

    Comparing marriage to civil unions is a bit like comparing diamonds to rhinestones. One is, quite simply, the real deal; the other is not. Consider:
    Couples eligible to marry may have their marriage performed in any state and have it recognized in every other state in the nation and every country in the world.
    Couples who are joined in a civil union in Vermont (or other state recognizing civil unions or domestic partnerships) have no guarantee that its protections will even travel with them to neighboring New York – let alone Texas or any other state.
    Moreover, even couples who have a civil union and remain in Vermont receive only second-class protections in comparison to their married friends and neighbors. While they receive state-level protections, they do not receive any of the more than 1,000 federal benefits and protections of marriage.
    In short, civil unions are not separate but equal – they are separate and unequal. And our society has tried separate before. It just doesn’t work.

    Now, which of your "special rights" shall we remove of yours that we might be equal, Dino?
  • Bud Mullins
    WOW!  If I had any inclination of being gay, I JUST LOST THE URGE...  That's a big mountain to climb.  Don't think I want to go there.
  • davidwwalters
    Dora, 53......
    -Thanx for spelling out the rights denied to gay couples.  This is a Civil Rights Issue.
    <<In short, civil unions are not separate but equal – they are separate and unequal. And our society has tried separate before. It just doesn’t work.>>
  • davidwwalters
    http://www.gopusa.com/commentary/guest/2008/fmb...

    <<The saga all started in October when Washington State gave a permit to a Wisconsin-based atheist group to display its sign alongside a Christian Nativity scene in the state's Capitol in Olympia. The lengthy message on the sign states in part, "At this season of the Winter Solstice, may reason prevail. There are no gods, no devils, no angels, no heaven or hell." It then goes into hateful attack mode, saying, "There is only our natural world. Religion is but myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds.">>

    -Why is this any more offensive than say, a sign that says sinners shall perish?  Christians can be so thin skinned.
  • A Texas Thinker
    Dora,

    Prop 8 did not revoke any rights from the gay community or the nation as a whole. Everyone in this nation has equal rights, so stop displaying your ignorance of our law by claiming your rights have been revoked, they have not. You have every right to marry, just as I do. I can marry a woman, and you can marry a man; those are our current illistrated RIGHTS. Both you and I do not have the right to marry whom we chose, or who we love, our rights are constrained to marriage between men and women. What you and the gay community are asking for is a brand NEW "right", the likes of which have not occured in over 80 years.

    So stop with the garbage that you have lost rights, you have lost nothing. Our rights are totally identical, you cannot at this time marry a women, I cannot at this time marry a man; your sexual preference is not of my concern, nor the laws.
  • Dora
    texan...your name alone is an oxymoron.

    it is displayed prominently in your reply.

    couples (gay) were legally married in california.

    after prop 8 this right was removed.

    try to keep up.

    marriage is- according to you and your bible between a man and a woman.
    to a chef it is the blending of two flavors or food items.
    to a couple it is the commitment and bonding of two loves and lives.

    use your life as you will, texan.  leave my life alone.  my life partner has absolutely no effect upon you.  not financially. not spiritually. not personally.  don't flatter yourself.  you are just not all that.
    your ignorance being spouted here is  pretty offensive though.   get informed before you spout.
  • Troy
    I am a Christian.  However, I do not understand why so many gay people can not understand that it is the definition of marriage that is what is the issue here.  Marriage is not defined as a personal union between a dog and a cat, or a person and a dog, just as it is not between two people of the same sex.

    Like it or not, America is a Christian nation since its founding.  The principles of freedom came from ideals of Christianity.  The concept of free will is also a Christian ideal.  No one is forcing their will upon you.  You can live a gay lifestyle as you choose to.  It is many gay people (not all) that seem to want to force their will on everyone else by redefining what marriage means.

    I hold no ill feeling toward gay people.  I actually had three gay couples in my home yesterday for a Christmas party.  I lovingly opened my home to them just as I did with all my other friends and co-workers.  From what I see around me, most (sadly not all) Christians are like me.  We express love rather than hate; however, the sad reality is that many gay people (not all) are the ones expressing hatred because others don't see things their way.

    This country has always been controlled by the people, so please, do what you need to fight for your cause if it's that worthy to you.  But do so with honor, even when you fail.  If it is such a worthy cause, just keep on trying.  Resorting to lies and false imagery is not very honorable.

    Lastly, people need to realize, myself, and others like me are not intruding on the lives of gays.  They can live their life as they wish.  It is them who are intruding on the lives of everyone else by trying to change what is.  And that's ok, it is allowed in this country.  But do it as it is supposed to be done; by majority support, legally, and without violence.  If by law, marriage is redefined, I will have to accept it just as I must accept the fact I have to pay taxes.
  • Troy
    And just to make it clear, EVERYONE has the same rights, even gays.  They too have the right to enter into marriage with someone from the opposite sex.  That is the same right as everyone else has.  If it's special rights that are requested, please say so; don't say the same rights as everyone else.
  • davidwwalters
    Troy
    -Are we (the United States of America)
    really a "Christian Nation"?  It seems to me the founding fathers paid close attention to leave out religion when writing the U.S. Constitution(You know, the legal document that spells out how the government will be organized....
    And as to gays having ALL the same rights that you&i enjoy, just tell that to the Arab linguists who were booted out of the military for being openly gay.
  • Cat
    Alicia my dear, you gays STAY out of our Christian marriage arena.  Marriage is between a MAN and a WOMAN, or it's not MARRIAGE..... GET IT???  Find your own name for your relationship.  Just get over yourselves....get right girl, that's what you need to do....stop the abominable behavior and find yourself in the way God intended for you.
  • Cat
    Dora,

    Our country was founded on JUDEO-CHRISTIAN values, and it needs to stay that way.  If you don't like the way it is, go to another country, you AMERICA hater!  I've just given up understanding where people like you have the GALL to try to change what America stands for.  CHRISTIANITY is its founding principle...you don't GET THAT?
  • Dora
    Cat- your ignorance is overwhelming.
    I am always mystified how one can reach the age of accountability, yet remain so utterly ignorant of so many facts. Yet...somehow you have managed this.  It is a fortunate thing that individuals of your ilk are quickly fading into the past like polyester pantsuits.  Looking at old television commercials are something of a hoot but looking at you is an eyesore.  You are offensive in so many ways.  Your "love it or leave it" attitude is about as UN American as it gets.   It must really suck to be you. 
    You are beyond the reach of rational thought.
  • Troy
    Have you read the Declaration of Independence David?  It was the document telling England that the American colonies were an Independent nation.  All you need to really know is the well-known passage "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."  

    True our founding father's didn't make a nation where Christianity was the religion of the state.  Just as God doesn't force mankind to worship or even believe in him, the founders of our nation didn't write laws forcing people to be Christians.

    But, you can not argue that the principles they used to found our great nation were from Christianity.

    Here's a link for anyone who wants to read the Declaration of Independence.

    http://www.ushistory.org/Declaration/document/i...
  • Troy
    As for gays being kicked out of the military, well, too bad.  That is not a lost right.  Why don't we fight for disabled people to be allowed into the military?  Isn't that worse?  Punishing the disabled?  Or children?  Shouldn't we give them that right?

    Being in the military isn't a right, my friend.
  • The Conservative Hawk
    Alicia and Jane,

    What I can't understand is how you both can be so blinded by your hatred of conservatives and religion that you can't even comprehend what his post was about.  What was the bigoted part? Was it how he spoke about how nice Mormons are in general? Was it the part about how he reminded you of how very lucky you are to live in the U.S and not a Muslim country?  Ahhh. I get it, it must have been the part where he actually showed the bigoted ad run by the anti-prop 8 group.

    Whatever it is, you should look at yourself before you accuse someone else of being a bigot. The only bigoted actions I have seen are those of the you and the radical homosexual groups (which by the way does not include the majority of gays who are not bigoted and hate filled) spewing your hatred and venom every chance you get.
  • BenV
    Troy -
    Gays are not asking for special rights. They are asking for the right to marry the person that they are sexually attracted to. Straight people have this right, gays do not.
  • Prosta
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-284S_-IBU

    look for the explanation of marriage by my boy Ron Paul. I voted yes on 8
  • Prosta
    and to Dora... every right you mention are not state civil rights. Those are Federal and stopped by the defense of marriage act. so please educate yourself. There are no new rights granted or lost by the passing or failing of prop 8 or any future state propositions. The word was made popular and respected by religion so why in hell would you want it? Sure you have the right to call yourself that.... it's not real, but it's still your right to live in a world of make believe.
  • Bud Mullins
    I am an American.  I love this country.  If I didn't love it, I would try to make arrangements for living elsewhere...

    So far, I agree with the laws that keeps America's Society on track.  If you speed, you get a ticket.  If you don't pay your taxes, you get put in jail.  If you rob a bank, same thing.  So break any of the laws that have been protecting individuals and America as a whole for hundreds of years and you pay some sort of a price.

    For hundreds of years authorities have been issuing licenses for men and women to get married.  Why after all these years should that be changed?  It can only be because a hand full of individuals, who want to act different, demands it!  There has always been those who want to be different, and that is their right under the protection of the Laws of America.  They can act anyway they want almost, but that does not give them the right to change the laws of the LAND!

    I say to all those folks, go to church, find a good seat and get SAVED...  Believe in a REAL GOD and you wont have to post all this bitterness.  You don't have to live that way anymore.
  • Prosta
    Hey bud! Thanks for posting....but... ummm....paying taxes does nothing for the usa... look up freedom to fascism full version on google. Your income tax is 100% federal reserve profit. It is a private corporation no more federal than the federal express.

    95% with ya on the rest of that...

    by the way I am cherokee and getting the hell out of the USA... or at least getting assests outside the USA... this economy is done.
  • Bud Mullins
    Prosta,

    Oh how I agree with you on the taxes.  I was only using that as an example of a law, not where our taxes go or what they are...

    By the way, where you going, I just might join you.
  • Prosta
    Well, bud there are great opportunities to invest from euro pacific capital. I retired to Ukraine at age 26. It's a wonderful place where $50,000 us CONVERST TO BEING Michael Jackson rich for 5 life times. Why be in one place. Ukraine, Argentina, PANAMA IS FANTASTIC. If you're wanting more info... I would honestly love to help out a fellow American. That way... we can help rebuild this country when it's fallen... and it IS going.
  • Chuck V
    Strange I was'nt aware everyone who voted for proposition 8 was Mormon.
    The film is so much propaganda liberal bull shit as usual!!!
  • davidwwalters
    Bud, states facts in 71....
    <<For hundreds of years authorities have been issuing licenses for men and women to get married.  Why after all these years should that be changed?>>

    -Yeah, and we used to be able to buy and sell human beings for hundreds of years, yet that didn't necessarily make that right either.
  • Mikal
    This is the problem in a nut shell.  When someone says marriage in America we define it as a union between two people under GOD.   Probably over ninety percent of this country is either Christian, Jewish, or Muslim.  Understanding that fact one can conclude that marriage to them is a union between two people under GOD.  So when you ask a population whose people view marriage in the lens of their religion then you will get the same answer everytime GOD does not respect a same sex union. 

    Conversely, we live in a country founded on the principle that all men are created equal(declaration of independence) and have a constitution for of our citizens to abide by and all laws are to be based around.  In this constitution we have a bill of rights and it is clear that the government is not allowed to discriminate against any group of people I dont care how small it is.  Add to that the fact that we are supposed to be a representative government were the legislature not the citizenry is suppose to create and vote on laws so we wont have a mob rule country.  This country is not a democracy but a democratic, constitutional republic. 

    So we are in a pickle most citizens dont believe in Gay marriage but the government can not take away people right to enter into a contract.  So here is the solution.  Government needs to get out of the Marriage business.  Get rid of the bigamy and poligamy laws and only give licenses for civil unions.  Once you get a license you can then get married if a church will do so or you can just have a civil union where the government acknowleges your union and allows you to have the same rights as any married couple.  But with any contract comes consequences for breaking said contract.  So their are consequences for everything.
  • Rich
    <!--[if gte mso 9]> Normal 0 false false false EN-US X-NONE X-NONE MicrosoftInternetExplorer4 <![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]> <![endif]--> <!-- /* Font Definitions */ @font-face {font-family:"Cambria Math"; panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4; mso-font-charset:1; mso-generic-font-family:roman; mso-font-format:other; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:0 0 0 0 0 0;} @font-face {font-family:Calibri; panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4; mso-font-charset:0; mso-generic-font-family:swiss; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:-1610611985 1073750139 0 0 159 0;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-unhide:no; mso-style-qformat:yes; mso-style-parent:""; margin-top:0in; margin-right:0in; margin-bottom:10.0pt; margin-left:0in; line-height:115%; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi;} .MsoChpDefault {mso-style-type:export-only; mso-default-props:yes; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi;} .MsoPapDefault {mso-style-type:export-only; margin-bottom:10.0pt; line-height:115%;} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in; mso-header-margin:.5in; mso-footer-margin:.5in; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> <!--[if gte mso 10]>-->

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    Uhh... Mikal, I think you may want to re-check your analysis of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.  There are some assumptions there that are a bit rash.  I think we're going to see in future how the civil rights of this nation are interpreted, but sexual orientation is not yet a federally protected class.  So, that means the 14th Amendment doesn't apply and neither does Equal Protection.  This means homosexuality doesn't show up on the radar.  Yet.  We'll see.  But the government CAN discriminate against groups.  Take law breakers as a really obvious class.  Take eminent domain as a discriminatory tool for another.  Try a more specific class like pedophiles.  Or say, people who like playing Dungeons and Dragons.  (not trying to tie them together).  If it isn't a protected class, it doesn't matter.   There are all KINDS of unprotected, oppressed classes in this country and there's very little they can do about it other than engage in the democratic process. 
    And by the way, what is a proper law?  What do you people think?  Is it something that transcends consensus (the democratic process), is it something executives hand down from on high, or is it decided by plebian majority?  A lot of you seem very confused on this point.  Not naming any names, but saying that homosexuals have an inalienable right that transcends current law, and then denying God's part in that...  OK.  Have your opinion, but you're not backing it up.  That's just pure rhetorical imperative.  Your opinions are nice and all, and I respect that, but they're just opinions.  Natural law has a basis in logic.  Saying something transcends man's machinations because God or nature says so makes sense, whether you believe it or not, because it is an appeal to at least some authority.  Just saying it is so is pretty weak logic. 
    If you're more the positive, objective type, and contend that law is a matter for consensus and the democratic process, then you're sunk if you begrudge any class.  The votes are in and for the time being, gay marriage is out.  Sure, the democratic process can overturn this, and the way things are going, it probably will happen.  That would make gay marriage legal, for whatever time peiod it endures.  Moral?  Immoral?  For the cynical positivist, who cares?  We don't legislate morality, we legislate order and a social sense of fairness.  Fine. But if this is your stance, you can't say out of one side of your mouth that you believe in the democratic process, and then deny a group, any group, their peaceful place in that process.  So like I say, lots of contradictions in logic in the general body of this discussion.  Not naming any names in this blurb about contradiction.  Just... check into it.
    In my opinion, any group should be allowed to organize in any peaceful, law-abiding  manner to promote any social agenda.  Period.  People in this country have the right to as much acymony or good will as they want, as long as it doesn't translate into uncivil action. 
    Homosexuals who deny Mormons that right deny themselves, by their own logic, the right to object to what happened in California. <!--[if gte mso 9]> Normal 0 false false false EN-US X-NONE X-NONE MicrosoftInternetExplorer4 <![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]> <![endif]--> <!-- /* Font Definitions */ @font-face {font-family:"Cambria Math"; panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4; mso-font-charset:1; mso-generic-font-family:roman; mso-font-format:other; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:0 0 0 0 0 0;} @font-face {font-family:Calibri; panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4; mso-font-charset:0; mso-generic-font-family:swiss; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:-1610611985 1073750139 0 0 159 0;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-unhide:no; mso-style-qformat:yes; mso-style-parent:""; margin-top:0in; margin-right:0in; margin-bottom:10.0pt; margin-left:0in; line-height:115%; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi;} .MsoChpDefault {mso-style-type:export-only; mso-default-props:yes; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi;} .MsoPapDefault {mso-style-type:export-only; margin-bottom:10.0pt; line-height:115%;} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in; mso-header-margin:.5in; mso-footer-margin:.5in; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> <!--[if gte mso 10]>-->

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    Can we get together on one issue: that hypocrisy is childish, noisome, and a waste of time?
  • Troy
    I pretty much agree with you Rich.  This is a democratic nation and the majority rules.  Or it should anyway.  If gay marriage is voted ok, then fine.  I see nothing wrong with voting a certain way because of moral beliefs, but trying to silence the voice of others that oppose your point of view is wrong.  We should never try and abolish free will.  All anyone can do is try to convince others that your belief is right, but if they don't agree in the end, so be it.  I talk tell people my side and why I believe the way I do.  If they don't agree with me, I smile and wish them all the best.

    I think Rich is right, gay marriage will probably be legalized in the near future.  I will vote against it until then.  But I do believe in our nation is run by the people.  So like it or not, when it comes it will be the law of the land.
  • Jim
    Sad; Gays will never be happy because if they are attracted to someone of the same sex a person of the same sex that would be attracted to them is not a true representation of that sex.

    What dood would want a real relationship with someone attracted to doods?
  • Bud Mullins
    Here's what is really sad.  Gay has always been the dictionary as a happy person, and colorful.  It was never attached to homosexuality.  That is until a group of people, backed by the ACLU demanded it and attached the word Gay to homosexuality.  Gay had nothing to do with being a homosexual.  It just sounded better and if the shoe fits, wear it.  So, it became a reality.  It was left in the dictionary and homosexual was added as being a descriptive of the word Gay.

    A good side of being gay has been manufactured.  There is no good side to being homosexual.  It is a sin and ruled as such in most churches.  I really don't care what you do as long as you don't try to push it on me.
  • Dora
    Don't flatter yourself, Bud.  Nobody pushes anything on you. 
    "There is no good side to being homosexual"
    What an odd and idiotic statement.  You say this as if it were a choice.
    "Hmmm...  I think I will be homosexual now. "

    Tell me, Bud- have you ever actually interacted - verbally- with a
    homosexual?  Have you ever actually sat down and talked about it?
    Or is your mind made up - not to be cluttered up with facts?

    You don't know the misery of hiding in a marriage.  You don't know the fear of losing your job because of  homophobic jerks like you.
    You have no clue about the fear of losing your children because you fell in love with someone of the same gender.  You don't respect the fact that not everyone believes in your beliefs.  You don't even acknowledge the many churches that DO acknowledge and welcome gay couples.  Your pig-headed, dim-witted self needs to get educated something fierce.  You are one of the causes of the continuation of hate crimes and religious bigotry.  
    I don't know what your problem is, really.  Nobody is forcing anything on to you.  Gays are a fact of life in all of the animal kingdom,  including humans.  Always have been and always will be.

    You don't get to vote on whether I should have the same civil rights as you do.  Why is this so hard for you to understand?
  • Dora
    and another little factoid for you, Bud- "fag" used to be a cigarette until jerks like you needed ammo for your cruelty.
  • Mikal
    Rich You have no understanding of how and why the constitution was constructed the way it was.

      First of all, our government is mixture of Aristocracy, democracy, and monarcy. Monarcy being the federal judges, aristocracy is the Presidency (elected by a electorial college) and orignally the Senate was elected by the state legislatures.  Of course now the senate is voted in by the people.  The only part of our government that was democratic is the Congress voted in directly by the people.  Having that understanding of our representative government you can understand that our laws are structure by both the peoples will and what the representatives feels is correct. 

      Second of all,  Once you are a convicted as a criminal your rights as a citizen can be taken away.  So your comparision of a pediphile (some you sexually moleste children) and Homosexuals (someone who has consentual sex with an adult of the same gender) is complete off. 

       Third of all, The reason we are not a democracy is because the framers (by the way they are smarter than me and you in my opinion)  understood that a democracy degrades to tyranny for two reasons.  One, in most full democracies you have a problem with people not voting.  To prove this fact all you have to do is look at the voting trends for big city local governments.  The turn is usually very low.  Second, reason a democracy degrades to tyranny is because mob will rule and the majority will put thier foot on the necks of the minority.  If civil rights for blacks was put to a vote by the people black people might still have to sit on the back of the bus and go to black only hospitals. 

       Now that you have been educated on the framers philoshy behind the constitution maybe now you will get it.  But no your ego tells you that Gay people are your enemy and they are not human and our "forgiving god" will damn them but not you for your hatred.  If god hates Gays let god hate gays but GOD at least my god Jesus Christ told me to "love thy neighor as I love thy self"  Theirfore I can not hate a gay person or you.  At the same time I dont believe that god acknowleges a union between gay people.  But that has nothing to do with my goverment allow gays to love each other.
  • davidwwalters
    Even Bob Barr has changed his mind:
    <>
    http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/...
  • Bud Mullins
    Here's what is REALLY, REALLY sad...  The majority of people will never know the wonderful feeling of being SAVED!
  • davidwwalters
    Bud, i just wanna be saved from silly religious ideas.
  • 2bluestarmom
    I'll save you David!    ;-)


    Awe, come on David.   You remember how good it felt to be one on one.


    It's a New Year.  How fresh and symbolic is that?!
  • 2bluestarmom
    I don't hate gays.  God doesn't hate gays.


    He hates the sin. 


    The problem is, they don't acknowledge their sin.  Therefore, it's between them and God.


    Howeva, I don't push my beliefs down anyones throat, I don't want theirs being pushed down mine.


    The problem is, folks who don't want anything to do with morals or God, want  us to change and to adopt their beliefs and accept their lifestyles and integrate it with ours.


    I choose not to.  This is the problem.


    Kinda like Israel being attacked by hamas.  Isreale doesn't want to be attacked by anyone.  They are defending their lives, homes, people etc


    Just because the Islamic/Muslim/Arab world wants to destroy the jews and they side with hamas, doesn't make it law or acceptable to the rest of the world.


    But that's another blog.




    Now some liberal will come along and start an disagreement with me.  Watch.  I will give it less than an hour.


    They don't like what I just said.  They do not want me to think the way I do, speak about it, defend it or respond to it with my opinion.


    Howeva, they want to force their beliefs down my throat and argue with me about why I should allow them to force it down my throat.


    Yet they say we are trying to do this to them.


    No. Not true.  As long as we don't say anything, keep our mouths shut, take what they dish out, become complacent, all is well.  Kinda like an abusive relationship.


    They cannot stand the fact that because they feel they are "all knowing" and want to change the world to fit their lifestyles, and I am not just talking about gay lifestyles, anything that strays from centuries of traditional values, is taboo with them.


    They think that all rules should be changed because we are now in the 21st century and we should go with the flow.


    I have a problem with that.  


    Gods word is the same yesterday, today and forever.
  • Bud Mullins
    2blue, thank you.  You said more in that one post than most of the others combined, it's all true and it all makes sense.  I want to say a couple of other things and I will bow out of this discussion.

    David, there is hope for you.  I would never give up on you.  God won't and I won't either.  We both love you as a human being.  Here is my suggestion for you: Find you a good church, surround yourself with a lot of those religious people you're hiding from and ask God to forgive you.  That's all, it's that simple.

    As far as you defending Hamas or their children, that's bunk!  Explain this to me, why is it that Radical Islam Extremist can walk out of a school, strap on a bomb and blow up anyone they want to, including MEN, WOMEN AND CHILDREN?  All the while their teachers and mentors are still hiding in those schools, masques and other buildings teaching more civilians to include MEN, WOMEN AND CHILDREN how to do the same!  How would you fight them.  Where should we kill them at?  How could we possibly combat this without killing some of those civilians to include MEN, WOMEN AND CHILDREN?  Sorry, I will never see your point...
  • Mikal
    2bluestarmom, I agree with the point that no one should try to make you accept the idea that it is morally okay for gay people to have sex or get married. 

    I would say the same thing about by Christian brothers and sister who want to push their beliefs on others.  Would say the same about people who try to make me believe that it is okay to have sex before marriage. 

    I dont find anything wrong with having a belief system and a moral code but that doesnt mean that your belief ought to be my belief.  that your morals should be mine.  As a Straight Christian i say stay out of my bedroom, and allow me to enter into a contract with whom I please.

    As for a liberal disagreeing with you that is the problem with all of us.  We need to check our EGO's.  Anyone in disagreement with you is a liberal.  I know many conservative who choose not to be so egoic in their thinking to believe that all people should think and act as they do.  Libs and Cons need to get off their high horse.  We are all human.  Just because me and you are Christian, it does not mean we are better than Muslims, Jews, Atheist, or any other religion you want to name.  We are all human looking for the same thing.  Contentment. 
    My ego is driving this post, so I maybe a little hypocritical.  Oh well!
  • 2bluestarmom
    Hi Mikal.  Let me clarify.



    "I don't hate gays.  God doesn't hate gays.
    He hates the sin. 
    The problem is, they don't acknowledge their sin.  Therefore, it's between them and God.
    Howeva, I don't push my beliefs down anyones throat, I don't want theirs being pushed down mine."
    It is none my business unless it affects me.  If it affects me, then it is my business.
    If I am talking to someone and I state "I Love God and God is Good" and someone comes along and joins into our conversation, without invitation and states "I hate God and God is Dead"  that affects me.
    1. No one invited them into our converstation.  I did not ask them for their opinion, I did not ask them to join into our converstation.
    2. If the shoe were on the other foot, It would be rude of me to jump in to a conversation between others that I was not invited to opine.
    So why is it expected of one group to keep their mouths shut and tolerate the verbal and now often times, physical abuse, to be in with the current events or times, but the folks who perpetuate such rudeness, it's acceptable?
    I was not raised that way.  I do not cram my beliefs down anyones throat.  That does not mean I cannot opine, under acceptable circumstances.  
    Ego has nothin to do with it.  It's a Fact.  
    Ever watch Sean Hannity or Alan Colmes?  
    Colmes will argue with any conservative, even if the facts, the truth, the witness is right in front of him.  I can't help it if that seems to be the norm for most liberals.
  • Mikal
    Touche!  Good points about people bashing religion.  but that is also ego.  People just want to feel superior over another because the feel as though they are smarter because they want to believe they are more logical than those who have faith in a God or Gods.  

    I disagree with the point that ego has nothing to do with it.  Bottom line is when someone bashes religion and you react it is ego.  Ego is the mechanism in you that feels a need to defend your religion.  The point I am trying to make hear is that your are not really effected it is your ego that is effected.  Your soul, your being can not be effected by someone who feels a need to down someone to make themselves feel better.  They are missing out on the Joy that I hope you feel as a Human and as a Christian.   

    As for Mr Hannity. He often will not even acknowlege good points made by "liberals" also.  I dont find either one of those guys Genuine.  By the way I hate labeling people Liberals and Conservatives.  But that is a different topic of discussions. 

    Hannity lost me as a fan during the election.  He almost had me hannitized.  But he is a divider and in my opinion a hater.  I know real compassionate conservative (there I go with the labels again) who would never pit black against white and Christian against Christian.
  • dsgawrsh
    2bluestarmom - I know it is hard to believe, but there actually are abortion-hating, conservative, God-fearing, Jesus-loving gay people out here who have no intention of forcing their love for their same sex spouse down your throat and think that it is high time that conservatives start letting into the fold those of us out here on the fringe because we are more similar than different.  I don't agree with your Biblical interpretation and you won't agree with mine, but we can all be on a team to save this country.
  • Mikal
    Dsgawrsh  I am curious save this country from what?
  • 2bluestarmom
    Dsgawrsh / Mikal



    You both have very good points.  I humbly agree.
  • Jim
    Do the guys who meet in the bushes behind rest stops on the interstate want to get married?

    Can't I love another man in a platonic way and just call it best friends?

    I'll never understand.
  • Troy
    Sorry Dora, but I don't understand your comments. 
    -What an odd and idiotic statement.  You say this as if it were a choice.
    "Hmmm...  I think I will be homosexual now. "

    I've spoken with many homosexuals.  Yes, some believe they are homosexual by genetics, but others have admitted it was a choice that was made.  I know some who changed due to being hurt from past relationships, others who chose because of doing jail time and meeting someone in prison.  And even some that used to be gay, but have chosen to change their life.

    I've asked for any source that shows actual proof that homosexuality is genetic, but I haven't come up with anything.  I've seen maybe two articles claiming it, but no actual proof, just opinion.

    If it isn't a choice, then how have many people have chosen to be and to not be gay?
  • Dora
    the only "choice" involved, if you wish to call it this- is a personal decision to acknowledge  the feelings that have always been there.
  • dsgawrsh
    Mikal - save this country from Marxism, socialism, one world government - do I need to go on?
  • Mikal
    dsgawrsh - Okay Got it.
  • randilal
    I'll join your team, dsgawrsh. I'm straight, conservative, and a theist/ agnostic, and I can see your well-proven point. I think we have more important issues at hand. Socialist Liberals frighten me lol. If America gravitates towards a socialistic government, like it seems to be spiraling towards, marriage won't be the only institution people will be longing for.
  • Ed
    It is "Mormans" for plural, not "Morman's," which is possessive.  I've been thinking lately that since my personal values are conservative, that it is strange that I am a Democrat.  Then, I am reminded that one of my values is intelligence and I know why I have to be a Democrat.  Sarah Palin sneered at intelligence, education, and thoughtful consideration of the issues throughout the campaign.  And, while not all Republicans join in her hatred of God's gift of intelligence, most do.  Will someone blaze a new path for thinking conservatives please?  After all, God expects to use the brains he gave us.
  • Mikal
    Yeah I agree, republicans should not be able to own the conservative title.  After all most people are both conservative in some ways and liberal in some ways.  I guess your affilation depends on your family (what you are born into), and what scares you the most.  Most liberals believe in god like most conservative yet the republicans seem to own god in some way.  Perhaps god wants us to our brains but according to churches and how we our taught to worship perhaps not.  After all it is thought that will eventually destroy the concept of god, but it is also that that will destroy the human because of the suffering that though creates.  So I guess must learn to think and sometimes to not think.
  • Bud Mullins
    Ed, don't know how I can help your crazy desire to be more conversative.  I am an ole democrat that is now Republican.  I am sure you are using the brains God gave you.  I could lecture, but I wont.  I could rant, but I wont.  I just felt like the overall image of the Denocrat Party had changed too much for me.  Got too radical and our two party got to be a political war.  "If they are for it, we are against it.  If they are against it, we are for it."  And on and on.  I had to change and I did.  The only reason I went Republican and not something else was simply to preserve our two party system.

    Good Luck.
  • Titus Hunt
    I'm a true Conservative Republican in every way and would never vote against the principals that our party stands for!  However, there are a lot of people in Washington and elsewhere who are actually liberal democrats hiding in our party.  This election actually puzzles me on so many levels.  obama has gone against almost every single campaign promise he has made (as i predicted) and is now trying to place some questionable people into his cabinet.  in addition, he was taught to be a politician from the most corrupt state government in the US.  He is also trying to pass a bill that would give money to states, we all know they can't manage money so it would go into a black hole.  (of course, as we know, the federal government can't be trusted to manage it either.)  the 3MM jobs he says he wants to create would be mostly low-skilled, labor intensive jobs that a lot of illegals now hold in construction.  so not only are most of these jobs temporary, they would go to folks who will not help this economy.  since these jobs normally don't have benefits, the people like me who actually pay taxes would pay their medical expenses (unwillingly).  the most ridiculous of all this is that the people who voted for this idiot (that is the nicest word i have for him) still believe he is the greatest thing since sliced bread.  so how can voting for him be intelligent?  i can't imagine!  i would laugh if the situation wasn't so serious.
  • JackieM
    I'm a true Conservative Republican in every way and would never vote against the principals that our party stands for!  However, there are a lot of people in Washington and elsewhere who are actually liberal democrats hiding in our party.  This election actually puzzles me on so many levels.  obama has gone against almost every single campaign promise he has made (as i predicted) and is now trying to place some extremely questionable people into his cabinet, and most of the cabinet is the same ole, same ole so there is no CHANGE!  in addition, he was taught to be a politician from the most corrupt state government in the US, and there has been more controversy around this than I have ever seen, and he is not even in office yet!  He is also trying to pass a bill that would give money to states, we all know they can't manage money so it would go into a black hole.  (of course, as we know, the federal government can't be trusted to manage it either.)  the 3MM jobs he says he wants to create would be mostly low-skilled, labor intensive jobs that a lot of illegals now hold in construction.  so not only are most of these jobs temporary, they would go to a lot of folks who will not help this economy.  since these jobs normally don't have benefits, the people like me who actually pay taxes would pay their medical expenses (unwillingly).  oh and let's not forget that the people who don't pay taxes (welfare) will get even more money not to work!  i have heard liberals make the ridiculous argument that those folks pay state, property and social security taxes so they actually pay taxes.  stupidity kicks in here!  SS is for keeping them up in their old age because they will not save for retirement; state and property taxes don't have anything to do with paying federal taxes!  the most ridiculous of all this is that the people who voted for this idiot (that is the nicest word i have for him) still believe he is the greatest thing since sliced bread.  so how can voting for him be intelligent?  i can't imagine!  i would laugh if the situation wasn't so serious.  ....and the majority of Americans are smart?
  • Dora
    So- what we have learned here is that "Titus" and "Jackie" are the same person.
    Pfffft.
  • davidwwalters
    Jackie (or Titus) says:
    <<However, there are a lot of people in Washington and elsewhere who are actually liberal democrats hiding in our party.>>
    -i used to think there were lots of Republicans hiding in the Democratic party(Bill Clinton was one).........
    Which Republicans do you believe are closet Libs?
    Oh, and who sent all this cold air to Moore County?  Obama?
  • davidwwalters
    <<the most ridiculous of all this is that the people who voted for this idiot (that is the nicest word i have for him) still believe he is the greatest thing since sliced bread.  so how can voting for him be intelligent?>>
    -He can't be that much of an idiot, Jackie.  I hear he is a smart guy.  But i don't know.......yet, he will have his chance to prove just how smart he is by attempting to pull our nation our of the state it has been placed in by the Bush-Cheney administration.
  • JackieM
    Well, it is nice that Dora learned something no matter how trival it may be!  I have not been able to post for a long while now because i was getting an error at every attempt.  UC has not be able to correct it, and this new ID seems to work for now!
  • JackieM
    David--obama is too busy ruining this country to worry about the weather!  ha!  Therefore, it must be biden!  Just look at the records of the republicans and it will become obvious!  Both parties have become tax and spenders.  They have allowed the unions and lobbyists to become too powerful of a force in Washington.  Greed has become the norm.  We, the US citizens, are just as bad.  We have lived beyond our means and have become a nation of entitlement!  Now that pelosi has been re-elected, the dream team of frank, pelosi, dodd, reid and obama can really enjoy continuing to ruin this country!  what a great bunch!
  • JackieM
    David--you may have heard he is a smart guy, and i will give him one thing--he had the intelligence to lie to the American people and make promises that he will not keep!  he was smart enough to know that there are a lot of people that would not understand the content and outcomes of his plans for this country and that it would get him votes as a result.  many people took one or two things they liked from his rhetoric and voted for him.  they ignored the rest.  this country has too many problems and that kind of ignorance will continue to get us into more trouble.  obama has already backed down from his rhetoric and has adopted much of McCain's stance.  McCain's economic policies have now mostly become obama's.  wonder why?  it is economics 101 so the reason is common sense.  McCain's policies were the right ones!  that is what i have been saying all along.  if i were a democrat and voted for him, i would not just conveniently forget the campaign promises and the expectation would be for him to carry his plans out.  as i said before, his campaign promises would ruin this country and by obama backing down from them proves he knows it.  hell, most experts will agree.  people in his own cabinet have told him so now he listens.  now keep in mind he started this complete turnaround the day after the election.  what perfect timing!  does that not say something?  the Bush/Cheney team had help from the democrats in charge for the past two years and before that the bad housing policies of clinton were there!  clinton's speech in 1995 scared me, and as a very young person at the time, i knew this would someday happen.  however, i didn't realize it would be to this extent.  the bailout plan did not have oversight by people outside of Washington.  i said that was a mistake before the bill was passed in other posts.  it was bound to fail.  i also have pointed out so many times that much of this is economics 101.  i will say this again--obama's plan will not work.  David, this is really easy to see.  the problems will not be solved by bigger government and overtaxing people who make a dime or two.  obama's plan is a joke and i explained why on my post from yesterday.  to just sit back and play the wait and see game with his plan is not smart.  it is like watching a person step in front of a moving vehicle and hoping the car will somehow leap over the person instead of hitting him/her.  it "ain't gonna happen."  so the illegals will continue to take money from the taxpayers.  the people who don't pay taxes will continue to enjoy not having to work or get an education because there is no incentive and more jobs will be lost.
  • davidwwalters
    <<many people took one or two things they liked from his rhetoric and voted for him.>> -The Republican success of the past 28 years has been because of attractiveness of it's rhetoric.  Big, Bad Government, Tax Cuts to take back the wealth from the Big, Bad, Government, and all abortion is murder has resonated well with many voters......enough to give them 5 of the last 7 presidencies.
    <<he was smart enough to know that there are a lot of people that would not understand the content and outcomes of his plans for this country and that it would get him votes as a result. >>
    -Did you ever think that maybe Obama's success is due in part to many in the electorate seeing through the emptiness of Republican rhetoric?  Don't make the mistake in thinking that most people are stupid.
    <<McCain's economic policies have now mostly become obama's.  wonder why?  it is economics 101.....................>>
    Tax cuts
    for the rich(econ 101?),
    -haven't worked yet JackieM.  The growing unemployment figures prove this.
    <<the 3MM jobs he says he wants to create would be mostly low-skilled, labor intensive jobs that a lot of illegals now hold in construction. >>
    -How many construction projects have you worked on?  I've made my career after my military service as a highway construction engineer.  I've seen all kinds of faces; men, women, gays, and ALL other minorities represented.  Yet the best paying jobs (like mine) were held mostly by white guys. 
    -And what is wrong with "labor intensive jobs"?  Hard, honest work is a virtue my friend......and it is also rough on the back.  That's why i am retired at age 54!
  • Bud Mullins
         You didn't hear about it on the evening news or read about it on the front page of The New York Times, but just a few days ago, the Obama Administration announced a plan to completely decimate and destroy our Armed Forces!

         To put it in the words of Robert Gibbs, Barack Obama's incoming Press Secretary, when the question was posed to him:

    "You don't hear a politician give a one- word answer much, but it's yes."

         But Obama's NOT calling it a "reduction in force," nor is he giving ANY indication that the REAL AGENDA is the wholesale destruction of our military.  The pending decimation is being deceptively pitched to the American public as a plan to end the military's "Don't Ask, Don't Tell Policy."

         Complementing Obama's efforts, California Representative Ellen Tauscher recently told the press that she plans to immediately re-introduce her deceptively titled legislation, the Military Readiness Enhancement Act (MREA).

         Of course MREA, in actuality, DOES NOT EVEN ADDRESS MILITARY READINESS.

          The language and purpose of the legislation - which had 148 far-left co-sponsors in the House of Representatives during the last session of Congress, but thankfully died in committee - is geared EXCLUSIVELY toward promoting open homosexuality in the Armed Forces!

         Tauscher recently told reporters she is rushing this legislation because:

    "We shouldn't be forcing good men and women out of military service."

         But Tauscher is either totally blinded by her far-left ideological worldview or is simply lying outright because MREA would do just the opposite - MREA WOULD FORCE GOOD MEN AND WOMEN OUT OF THE SERVICE!

         Tauscher and the Obama Administration must be aware of a recent poll by The Military Times that poses the question; "If the 'don't ask, don't tell' policy is overturned and gays are allowed to serve openly, how would you respond?"

    According to the poll, a full 24 percent of respondents said they would not re-enlist or consider not re-enlisting!

         That's significant!
     

     




    If those numbers hold constant for all the men and women presently wearing a uniform (and there is absolutely no reason to believe they would not), the 10 percent of those in the poll who indicated that they would definitely NOT re- enlist - would EXCEED the number of those serving on active duty in the United States Marine Corp.

    If the remaining 14 percent who said they would consider not re-enlisting are added into the mix, the number could approach the number of troops presently serving on active-duty in the United States Army!

     
         You can STOP this unholy alliance between Barack Hussein Obama, those who hate America and our men and women in uniform, and the radical homosexual movement.

  • Sug
    you really scared me having that video on your homepage.

    Glad you're not folding into the left wing conspiracy (or should I say "evolved like the rest of society" as Alicia so hypocritically put it)!
  • JackieM
    David --  your comments:

    The Republican success of the past 28 years has been because of attractiveness of it's rhetoric.  Big, Bad Government, Tax Cuts to take back the wealth from the Big, Bad, Government, and all abortion is murder has resonated well with many voters......enough to give them 5 of the last 7 presidencies.

    Since when has the government ever managed any money or program efficiently, David?  The government waste is massive so why should smart people that actually pay taxes want their money thrown away?  I am part of the group who thinks I need to keep the money I earn.  Since the government (both parties) does not make good decisions on where the money should be spent, I want to decide where my hard-earned cash is distributed.  The feds throw my money into a black hole.  I guess people who grow money on trees are not so worried about the waste.  However, i'm not one of those lucky few.  Poor people don't hire people and i happen to like the fact that i'm employed because my company is able to make more money under the tax cuts that Bush implemented.  It was a prosperous time until the meltdown occurred.   As the experts in obama cabinet have told him, you can't raise taxes on businesses during these economic times.  the same is for capital gains taxes.  obama has proven he doesn't know what he is doing and finally listened.  he is following McCain's plan now with the exception of the phony stimulous he is trying to get passed.  Most republicans that I know just want people to take personal responsibility for their actions and respect life.  Many (not all) believe abortions should be performed only in cases of rape and protecting the mother's life.  People need to be more responsible in the first place. 

    Did you ever think that maybe Obama's success is due in part to many in the electorate seeing through the emptiness of Republican rhetoric?  Don't make the mistake in thinking that most people are stupid.

    obama's success is due to people not understanding the basics of economy and how people stay employed!  I didn't make a mistake when i said most people are stupid.  it is the truth.  go to any college campus and take a poll.  ask the students simple questions about how the economy works and what obama is going to do to correct it.  I have spoken with lots of students and not one (except for my son) knew a damn thing and could not put the pieces of the puzzle together.  All they said was that obama will change things but they had no clue what or how it would happen.  how stupid!  my son has talked to many students with the same results.  i'll go one step further.  i talked to numerous highly educated people in education and they had no clue!  those folks are the ones teaching our kids!  i was speechless! 

    The tax cuts were working until this meltdown!  the economy was growing.  however, tax cuts are just one necessary tool.  i have to say the one word that liberals hate:  personal responsibility.  people everywhere from all walks of life are greedy and that is what got us into this mess in the first place.  it is from the top down and the bottom up. 

    How many construction projects have you worked on?  I've made my career after my military service as a highway construction engineer.  I've seen all kinds of faces; men, women, gays, and ALL other minorities represented.  Yet the best paying jobs (like mine) were held mostly by white guys. 
    Funny you should ask, David.  I have worked on two construction jobs.  one lasted over six years and the other was only for a year.  Construction engineers have the better jobs but there are not that many of them compared to the day laborers.  the day laborers as you know are paid low wages, have no benefits and are often illegals.  a lot of companies don't provide much in the way of benefits to their regular employees.  so who is going to pay for their retirement?  hmmmm!  me and others who work!  I am very familiar with construction.  I won't name one of the companies i worked for but you would definitely know it.  construction jobs are temporary by their very nature so obama is merely trying to put a bandaid on a bigger problem.  obama is not willing to close our borders so this will encourage illegals to start pouring in again!  that is not what we need.  so obama is going to create mostly low wage jobs that are temporary with no benefits.  wow!  what a smart guy--not! 

    Contrary to what a few people have said about me on these blogs, i don't listen to conservative talk radio and watch all news channels for a better understanding of the world.  Understanding the economy and how it works is all anyone needs to realize obama doesn't have a clue!  i've never seen anyone in politics change his tune as fast and as many times as obama has, and he is not even in office yet!  that is called deception at its best!  at least he could have waited until he was in office to show the American people he is an idiot!
  • JackieM
    Bud Mullins--I did hear about this.  but hey, obama is just trying to follow clinton's footsteps but taking it further.  clinton cut intelligence overseas.  It saved money.  all that mattered at that time was that we had a surplus.  we didn't have people to translate all of the taped conversations from terrorists, and we didn't have people any longer immersed in these organizations that took years and years to infiltrate.  so when 911 occurred, we were SOL.  however, people still love clinton and praise him for the big surplus he left behind.  how nice!  if the liberals don't realize who they voted for and what obama will do to this country, i guess we will have to just sit back and wait for the US to fall unfortunately!  it is so sad to say but i guess more people will have to die in this county but i don't think they will get it then.  liberals will still be worried about those poor, poor terrorists who were tortured!
  • davidwwalters
    JackieM (117)
    <<
    Since when has the government ever managed any money or program efficiently, David?>>
    -Jackie,
    i have worked on government administered projects that were well run.  By well-run, i mean under budget, and built to specification.  At least i can say you are not blindly partisan,
    <<" Since the government (both parties) does not make good decisions on where the money should be spent,....">>
    ........................So, we can agree that waste
    can be attributable to either party.  And let's not forget which government department wastes the MOST.  -That would be the Department of Defense.  But that is a whole other discussion.
    <<Funny you should ask, David.  I have worked on two construction jobs.  one lasted over six years and the other was only for a year.........
    construction jobs are temporary by their very nature so obama is merely trying to put a band aid on a bigger problem
    .>>
    A Highway construction project includes a vast array of workers.  Some are state and local employees (usually permanent positions) , some are workers for the engineering firms that are contracted to map and design the projects(More or less permanent positions).  And there are some illegals(Yes!  You are correct           -these are NOT permanent positions) that do the shovel work for the construction firms that actually clear, grade, and pave a project.   (Many of the positions at a construction company are in fact permanent positions......such as the project managers, secretaries or the accountants).  And these illegals do not come close to being a majority of the large number of people associated with a highway construction project.  They just are the most visible
    So actually, a construction project would put money in the pockets of lots of diverse people, including Republicans(like the guys who own the firms getting the contracts to map, design and build these jobs) .......and these people will in turn BUY things which in turn have a ripple effect on our ailing economy.  Remember Econ 101?
    GOTTA go to a music session with my girlfriend(Bluegrass), and i look forward to addressing you &  Bud on MREA!
  • Bud Mullins
    David, I played Blue Grass, my brother does too...
  • ML Smith
    To Bob Mullins

    Blue grass? I can't remember who won it last year, but it isn't as good a Derby predictor as it once was...perhaps due to the change to a synthetic surface.

    Did Secretariat run in the Blue Grass? No, I don't think so. 

    Obviously, Proposition 8 is not a priority for you. What's the deal (seriously) with Blue Grass?
  • davidwwalters
    My friend, ML Smith asks:
    <<What's the deal (seriously) with Blue Grass?>>
    -I don't think bLUE Grass is serious.....yet it is fun to perform with a group of persons(.....now i know you'll make something obscene outta that.......)
    in a session on a cold Saturday morning at an old country store.  You can forget about the insanity of the world at large and concentrate on something else. 
    Bud(great name for a banjo picker)
    115:<<According to the poll, a full 24 percent of respondents said they would not re-enlist or consider not re-enlisting!

    That's significant!>>
    -I s'pose when Harry S. Truman signed Executive Order 9981July 26, 1948, had a similar polling of active duty personnel been taken, i wonder what the results would have been? 
    << You can STOP this unholy alliance between Barack Hussein Obama, those who hate America and our men and women in uniform, and the radical homosexual movement. >>
    Bud, learn me some........
    -Who is it that hates America(and our men and women in uniform)?
    I remember the Senior TAC NCO in my airborne school class finding this guy's "make-up" stash in his wall locker!  Hell, if the guy had balls enough to jump out of an airplaine, he(or she) had balls enough to fight.....
  • Bud Mullins
    Upright & guitar.
  • JackieM
    David:  Some of the major programs in US government like social security, welfare, medicaid and medicare are the very inefficient.  so i'll take your word for some other projects that are run efficiently.  however, i'll be willing to bet i would find waste in every last one of them.  so i should just be happy to pay more taxes and tell my future grandchildren to enjoy paying most of their salaries to the government because of the upcoming wasteful stimulus package and the bailouts plans?  yeah, i'll just do that.  there are other answers and expanding welfare is not one of them. 
    The construction projects are temporary.  They have a beginning and an end.  If obama really wanted to do what is right for America, he would cut wasteful spending.  Don't forget there are other ways to get us out of this mess but the democrats refuse to listen!  Let's see--how about that party he is throwing next week.  estimates are $150MM without the approx. $50MM in government spending for security and the money from two states.  The $150MM comes from companies wanting favors, celebrities, unions, etc.  now if you compare that to just four years ago at $43MM, it is a joke!  obama does not give a damn about cutting spending.  he said the in the campaign that the pork spending was "nothing" and blew it off.  now with Americans losing their jobs and homes and the economy continuing to decline, obama has some nerve!  oh well, maybe he will put on one of those funny hats and blow a paper horn!  let me know how it goes because i'll be washing my hair or my neighbors hair or anything else more interesting and less wasteful!
  • Dora
    Once again we are able to view the selfish and uninformed words of another ultra right wing lemon-head- as sour as they come.  Guess what, Titus/Jackie  - not just the vast majority of the people of the United States - you can include the vast majority of the world's population, are excited, encouraged, and relieved to see the inauguration of President Obama.   Meanwhile, you continue to stink up the joint with your negativity and selfishness.  I cannot even come close to explaining how equally exciting it is to see those with your thinking becoming more and more minute in number.   You have no solutions, no ideas, and no validity.  You spent the entire Presidential campaign mouthing and repeating lies and rubbish.   Your dinosaur thinking and inability to inform yourself despite a world of information at your fingertips is indicitative of someone who speaks just to hear their lips flap.  Nothing more.
  • davidwwalters
    <<David:  Some of the major programs in US government like social security, welfare, medicaid and medicare are the very inefficient.>>
    -says JackieM
    ....Maybe.  Yet it works.  Despite the Wall Street meltdown, citizens can be assured of that check to come so the can meet their daily needs.  So, had we had nothing but privatized retirement accounts, there would be lots of poor disable and retired Americans literally out on the street.  i would hate to think that my VA pension and SS checks would be reduced by 40% because the Wall Street Traders performed voodoo with our 401K plans.........
    So much for privatization as a panacea for everything.  At least i have enough money in my pocket to buy stuff....so someone able, may continue to have a job in spite of the economic crash that me an tens of millions of other real Americans have come to understand is a result of Trickle Down Economics.  I sat by and watched as conservatives have sold our nation to the highest bidder since 1980.  I remember Reagan telling America how much privatization would save American taxpayers, yet all i hear is how the deficit is Clinton's fault.  Is it?   NO!  Giving Brown&Root more contracts hasn't made America more efficient or safer.
    It is high time to put the past behind us and forge a future for this once great nation.  i gave Reagan and conservatives a chance to change America 28 years ago.....
    -They failed.  Get on board or get left behind.
  • JackieM
    Dora--I do have solutions and so do many economists--accounting changes will keep companies in business, taxbreaks for small business who are now struggling and going out of business (his plan for them so far is a joke), etc.  you are as stupid as you sound and have no clue what my solutions are.  all you need to do is look at your friends pelosi, reid, dodd and frank and see a disaster!  even obama's own cabinet members disagree with him.  so selfishness comes from people like you!  ignorant is a nice description of your narrowed-minded views.  selfishness is not understanding that people have lost their jobs and will have to watch him throw a party while they lose their homes!  selfishness is taking money from those who have taken/want bailout money and knowing they will want favors.  i could go on but my point has been proven many times over.  As several of his voters interviews on TV, most of Americans want handouts from these guy.  it is not funny that he has already lied to the very people he voted for.  However, people who understand the US and world economy know his plan will not correct the economy.
  • JackieM
    David--my friend, you are kidding right?  Privatization of social security would be a choice that the citizens would make.  so if you chose to have a private account and chose one or several of the limited investments that would be offered, it would be your choice.  for young folks, it would be an opportunity to actually turn their hard-earned money into more than what they would have had under the current plan.  it would also save the government money because the folks that chose this plan would be able to rely on their income for what they need instead of relying entirely on the government to pay for it.  in other words, people would have more so the government would have to provide less.  people in their 50's and up would not be affected and would keep the low-yielding treasury rate investment vehicle.  younger folks would have choices.  what a novel idea!  however, you can keep yours as is and if given the chance, i'll choose the privatization account and will invite you along with my family on my tour of the world and to my beachhouse in my retirement.  of course, i don't think the government is responsible for my wellbeing.  i'll take care of that myself and if i receive social security, it will be pocket change since it was never meant to be the sole income for anyone anyway!  if it is up to the left we will be an entirely socialist nation.  since the construction jobs are not worth a shit for a lot of people because they are temporary in nature and a lot of folks have other degrees and would not be qualified to be an engineer or accountant, etc., in that field, unemployment will continue to rise.  since i worked in that environment for years, i can safely say i was miserable.  it was horrible.  however, some people were lucky enough to have good jobs in that field (mostly men) and loved it!  i was not one of them!  where are the jobs for the 35,000 innocent people that are are going to lose their jobs at one bank within the next 3 years?  those folks are not included in the rich and greedy that had a hand in this crisis but yet their creditials are not in the construction area.  obama's plan is narrowly scoped and is not all inclusive.  he does claim to work for everyone doesn't he?
  • Dora
    consider "Jackie" one of the left behind...by her own choosing.

    sorry, "Jackie"- if you are not willing to be part of the solution- you ARE the problem.
  • JackieM
    sorry, Dora but just what is the solution?  you don't have one!  oh yeah if rhetoric is a solution then........i guess you have everything solved.  spending money that my children and grandchildren will have to pay back is....................right?  don't they deserve a life?  selfish?  i don't think so.  just tell me the exact plan without using one of obama's speeches!  remember, he didn't win everyone's vote and as a matter of fact, there are a lot of folks that understand his policies and didn't vote for him.  we know the job creation plan of his won't work as a matter of economics.  of course, obama's own cabinet members disagree with his tax policies so what is the correct plan?  now is your chance to shine!  remember:  any plan to create jobs successfully has to include the world economy!  ha!  i'll be left behind where?  oh that is right--i don't want to be a part of a socialist country, and that is one of the reasons why i loved the US.  so what will i be missing?
  • JackieM
    i haven't been able to check the blogs for a while because i was ordering my obama coins and plates.  ha!  i could not resist.  obama stands for hope and change.  i get that.  however, the specifics for hope and change were based on emotions and what those who voted for him thought he meant and not based on solid policies and actions he would take that would help business to create jobs.  oh wait a minute, he did mention the bottom up theory, which we all know doesn't work in a GLOBAL economy.  if anyone doubts this, an economics 101 book will explain, and the higher levels of economic theory go more into depth on the subject.  he has shown in this latest welfare plan that it is just that.  it doesn't help the businesses that employ most of America.  a $3k tax deduction per employee hired is laughable.  so the hope must be the socialist idea of the government creating about 3MM temporary jobs in construction and the like.  so if i lose my job and can't start a business of my own because of his ridiculous policies, am i then forced to make a decision to work for the government temporarily or starve?  on the other hand, i should be grateful that the government is looking out for me and take what i can get because as everyone knows hard work, skills and education is going to mean nothing if obama has his way.  hmmmmm!  that sounds like what?  a free nation based on capitalism or communism?  smart guy this obama guy!  so tomorrow is not a problem for anyone that has a selfish agenda.  however, for those of us who care about this country, it means greater troubles are on the way.  it means that most people will not be paying for those fighting for our freedoms, educating our kids and other services the government provides.  hmmmm!  this kind of thinking has gotten us into a big mess and the easy solutions are ignored by the democrats and fake republicans!  let's celebrate the wasting of hard-earned money tomorrow.  that is history in the making.  I'm sure those who have lost their jobs and homes won't be thinking about what they could do with the approx. $250MM that is being thrown out the door and spent on party hats and whistles.  all that money blown is worth it if we get to see obama raise his right hand and some people sing!
  • Troy
    I've always thought it strange that Gay people claim to not be shoving their ideals down everyone's throat.  Yet, insisting on gay marriage is just that.  How does it affect others?  Well, my father now is worried about having to possibly pay more out of pocket to cover the benefits that would extend to any gay employee "partners".  So I guess all this society restructuring is not considered changing things for others.

    As far as a majority of people supporting Obama......well, i guess it can be true, but what does that mean exactly?  With a vast majority of Americans keeping their heads filled with reality TV and other junk, it's easy to see how the weak minded are gathered by the left.  Here's a link that proves my point.  http://www.flixya.com/video/1474460/_Howard_Ste...

    Just speaking with leftist weirdos is entertainment.  I do hang out with a few from time to time and love to hear all their conspiricy theorys and all their trash.  I wanted to laugh at one guy who claimed that Bush and the Republicans wanted to spy on the phone conversation of all Americans so they used fighting terrorists as a reason to make it happen.  Now it's funny to see that Obama isn't taking that power away from the government, and yet it's ok for him to have that power.  What it the world are people talking about anyway that has them so scared? 

    But I do love the responses I get when I question and challenge their ideas.  One friend led me to a website with a big list on what Bush has done as President.  Number one stated he attacked and took over two countries.  I asked my friend to name them and explain how Bush is in control over them since he took them over.  I guess he'll be proven correct if Bush ends up being the head cheeze of Iraq after Obama takes office.

    Enjoy your lives people, but please don't mess things up for others.  The ability for gays to marry was never taken from anyone since it was never given in the first place.  And for those who believe gay marraige is a sign that people have "evolved" I can't see how that's even considered as a serious comment.  http://www.speroforum.com/a/17513/Gays-vandaliz... Just check out the link and see how so-called "evolved" people operate.
  • davidwwalters
    <<David--my friend, you are kidding right?  Privatization of social security would be a choice that the citizens would make.>>
    -JackieM (128)

    no, i wasn't kidding and like Harry Reid, i saw that move (Bush's plan for SS)
    as a free lunch for investment bankers.  The supply side, free market is a corner stone of our nation's economy, but Social Security is a plan that is separate from investment and insurance.  Thank god!  -Because my 401k is not performing........You and everyone else still has the freedom to invest as you see fit, yet a government mandated plan to infuse money to investment bankers is a bad idea, especially in light of the how investment bankers have operated for the past decade.
    At least 4" of snow is on the ground and more is falling.  These are the mornings i am actually glad to be unable to work.   I hated to work in the cold on the various temporary construction jobs i held in the past.    Yet i made a living at it........ (<<since the construction jobs are not worth a shit for a lot of people because they are temporary in nature>>)
    <<
    ............spending money that my children and grandchildren will have to pay back is....................right?>>
    -JackieM (130)
    No, it isn't  Which is just one reason our once great nation's electorate voted out the party that brought us the deficit that burdens us.  Prosecuting a war while giving a tax break to the wealthy was not a wise plan for our nation's future.
    -and speaking of war, have you thanked Bill Clinton yet?
    "A commander in chief leads the military built by those who came before him.  There is little that he or his defense secretary can do to improve the force they have to deploy.  It is all the work of the previous administrations.  Decisions made today shape the force of tomorrow......And when that war(1st Gulf War) ended, the first thing I did was to place a call to President Reagan."
    -Dick Cheney, August 2000
  • Dora
    Troy:
     
    And what makes you believe that the benefits that you- as a heterosexual - receive from your employer do not increase your employer's overhead thereby increasing the employer's cost of doing business???  Any increases in an employer's cost of doing business will be reflected down the line - whether it's the renovation of the employee's break room, postage increases, gas prices, or a heat wave that requires the use of additional cooling costs.  Your insipid remarks indicate your obvious homophobia- (a condition that often exists in people who fear that they themselves feel attraction to their same sex...is this your "problem" Troy?)
     
    Do you have any idea, Troy, how ignorant you are...or are you proud of this?
    It's comforting to know that America has turned the corner on your small minded thinking.  It's comforting to know that divisive bloggers like "Urban Conservative" here,  Drudge, Irrational Limbaugh,  and certifiably mentally handicapped people like the Savage Weiner, and the KKK are looked upon as havens for the teeny tiny percentage of left-over right wing crazies that haven't noticed that the rest of the country and the world are repulsed by your acid hate, you failed idealism, your selfishness, and your hypocrisy.  Good riddance to bad rubbish.
  • Dora
    Jackie- Obama won because the majority of America REJECTED the politics of division that you promote. 
    consider this:  the most recent president could not fill 80% of the seats for his inauguration... his FIRST one.  contrast this with the reception today of a joyful, optimistic, thankful gathering of over 4 million in  attendance...and countless millions around the world that rejoiced right along with them.   the noise that you hearall about you is a national collective sigh of relief to see the end of the reign of king bush and his minions.
  • Troy
    Sorry you don't understand simple concepts Dora.

    I'll explain it slowly for you.  Many employers (not all) cover their employees and their spouses for things like medical and dental care.  The more people you have to cover, the higher the cost. (naturally)  If suddenly more people are eligible for coverage, the number of people being covered will increase and costs will go up.  If it wasn't this way, we could suddenly cover friends, pets, strangers, and the cost would never be affected.  But, as everyone knows, the more people the employer has to cover, the higher the cost.  Suddenly having to honor gay couples as legally married will increase this cost for employers, not necessarily employees.  That what my father is worried about as an employer.

    Hope it was easy enough for you.

    But do I deny the cost of covering my spouse, no.  The point is where is the line drawn.  You can't cover everyone, but you don't want to drop coverage on everyone else either.  My dad didn't cover anyone for a long time, but he felt pressured to do so.  Fine, he accepted it for the sake of his workers and his business.  But if doesn't cover one legal marriage while covering another based soley on what he believes then he's in the wrong.  For now, covering legal spouses and kids is the norm.  Honestly, I myself wouldn't care if we all went back to the days when there was no insurance provided by employers and health care was affordable cuz it had to be.  But that's just me and I know it'll never happen.

    So PLEASE....the whole point is to be honest.  Will it increase the cost for employers if gay marriage is legalized?  That's it.  Just answer that question.  There's no point in taking the childish route and saying "oh ya, well you cost employers too."  Like I said, that's the norm right now, and to claim that legalizing gay marriage doesn't affect anyone else is just a lie.

    Oh, and if you respond, please show some true intelligence with facts that argue your point.  Your last post to me Dora did not even deny that gay marriage will affect others, and that was my whole point.  All you did was insult and point fingers.  At least I gave explanations for my statements and beliefs.
  • Dora
    I have never...NEVER been employed by any business that covered both me and my family.  Never.  I was covered.  My option to cover my family was an expense to me.  Furthermore,  the more employees that are incorporated in a medical group, the lower the cost/co-pay from the employee's paycheck.  As an example, I had the option of using the "preferred" group then being used by my employer- I declined this since I had previous connections with another group where I had familiarity with my personal doctor.  That particular medical group was available to me- but at a higher personal cost to me. 
    You can summon up theory if you wish- I have actual experience regarding that which you pontificate.
  • Dora
    I have watched this video posted by the host of this site - watched it a number of times in fact.  I fail to see a single item represented there that was not true.  Not a single item.
  • Dora
    Just answer me two questions: 
    why is it exactly that you people have so much interest in my sex life?  
    how many laws have been legislated against yours?
  • davidwwalters
    Troy (136)....
    <<Many employers (not all) cover their employees and their spouses for things like medical and dental care.
    >>
    -That's a good reason (what you've written) for planning a different health care system.......
  • Prosta
    why is it exactly that you people have so much interest in my sex life?

    -with the passing of prop 8 your sex life did not change. It was NEVER about you sex life. It's about defending what marriages means. YOu still have equal rights to marriage as any woman  and all men have equal rights to marriage as any man.

    how many laws have been legislated against yours?

    - prop 8 was against me. government needs out of this PERIOD. I agree we need civil unions to be OPTIONAL, but available to ANY relationship that involves humans. Marriage should be handled by the people, their religious institutions and free of government.

    Up till 100 years or so marriage was handled by religion WITHOUT government
    licenses

    The point in the licenses were to gather health information for relationships. You  used to have to get tested. That was the whole reason RELIGION allowed licenses to be issued. It seemed sane to get health protection. It used to be that the majority did not have sex outside our marriage and it was imagined that it would prevent people from getting STD's from less pure partners if they monitored it. Marriage was made popular, respected and part of society by religion. the licensing was not meant to be open season for every type of relationship to claim it. Religion did the work to make it part of our nation, part of society and honored. This is like if I and my friends were to build a HUGE farm and suddenly the lazy neighbors next door suddenly wanted to pass laws to get into our store houses even though they sat on their asses while we did the work.

    Again view Ron Paul's ideas on this. EVen my gay friends agree. CIVIL UNIONS FOR EVERYONE!! REligion handles marriage AND THAT MEANS HOMOSEXUALS CAN START RELIGIONS THAT CALL THEM MARRIED... not a valid marriage at all, but they are free to pretend. That's like a prostitute calling herself a gentle virgin. Don't make it true!
  • JackieM
    David:  so you are saying that you don't trust your own government to negotiate fees and to be watchdogs over social security choices?  hmmm!  what does that tell me?  people should have choices and not be mandated to give their money into a blackhole with no understanding of where it is going and if they will get it back.  people who invest will get statements as proof of their deposits.  in addition, as an investment person, it doesn't make sense to not make the most of time for young folks and let their money grow.  about 10-12 years before retiring, everyone needs to have all of their money out of the market anyway.  so this would not be a problem.  the government will save money in the long run by not having to pay for expenses incurred by retirees because they can pay for it themselves.  of course, it may defeat the purpose of the obama administration.  you know their plan to ensure Americans are totally dependent on them.  a lot of small businesses are hurting now and laying of folks or closing.  wonder what will happen if obama enacts his current plan?  hmmm!  not good.  but hey, everything i've predicted about obama has happened so far, so I HAVE A RECORD of being right!!
    You have to be kidding this time when you mentioned the deficit spending.  unfortunately, both sides have been stupid.  however, two wrongs don't make a right and obama is getting ready to make the deficit increase even more.  have you heard about the plans pelosi and frank have?  they have said the deficit is not important right now.  yeah!  why don't we raise taxes on those who employ us now as obama planned?  i want to see him follow through with his promises.  we haven't seen a high unemployment rate until this happens.  his own cabinet members disagree with him.  wonder why?  math and economics does wonders in understanding the dynamics of this situation. 
    Yes, i will bow down to clinton and thank him on his choice of cutting spending on military intelligience.  that really cost us on 911!  Thank you, Bill!
  • JackieM
    Dora--your comment: Obama won because the majority of America REJECTED the politics of division that you promote. 
    consider this:  the most recent president could not fill 80% of the seats for his inauguration... his FIRST one.  contrast this with the reception today of a joyful, optimistic, thankful gathering of over 4 million in  attendance...and countless millions around the world that rejoiced right along with them.   the noise that you hearall about you is a national collective sigh of relief to see the end of the reign of king bush and his minions.

    That is one of the craziest things you have ever said.  There were several reasons why obama was elected.  however, you are wrong on your reasoning.  It was obvious on ALL news stations when they covered the election.  At every poll you saw black after black voting and when interviewed, many said it was because he was one of them.  My polling station was the same way.  They were proud to admit it!  Now some interviews I saw locally and nationally were quite interesting!  People admitted they wanted obama to pay their bills and since he/she were voting him in, he/she expected to be paid back.  now since he promised every group of people help, it stands to reason they would vote for him.  This includes unions.  most people are only interested in getting helping themselves and do not care about the welfare of others--selfish.  Then there is another group of people that were on TV constantly.  It was the college students.  They said they were voting for "change" and "hope."  it was funny when the interviewers asked them what this meant.  they couldn't answer.  they were merely repeating what obama said.  when asked questions about the economy, they had no clue what obama stood for and didn't understand how the economy works.  Now just in case you didn't see the interviews all over every news stations, polls were taken on this subject also at different colleges across the US.  the results were printed in liberal papers.  My son who is in college also mentioned this to me before i said anything to him about it.  he said students on his campus and others were stupid and had no clue about economic policy and didn't understand what obama stood for.  He is in the environment everyday and has friends from lots of colleges.  those are the people who put him in office as stupid as it may be!

    the word "hope" that obama uses is rhetoric and has no substance behind it.  quite funny but sad!  he is a good used car salesmen and just like those who were sold mortgages they couldn't afford, the voters are being fooled!  look at his economic plan!
  • Troy
    Hmmm, guess I need to simplify even more.

    Employers must pay insurance companies dues to provide coverage for their employees.  It's not just the employee who bears the cost.  Yes, a family plan has a higher cost for the employee than just a single plan.  However, if you pay attention, a family of 3 pays the same dues as a family of 6 many times.  So the money that covers the extra people in the family of six comes from somewhere. (imagine that)  If hundreds of thousands of people are suddenly eligible employer dues will increase.  Yes, the family plan will be purchased, but it'll take more money from the employers to cover the additional burden which will increase employer dues.  Just start a business and you'll find out.  Or better yet, work in a clinic to see how many people visit for sneezing just cuz it's covered.

    Sorry David.  I believe we need a different health care system, but I'd bet not in the way you'd choose.  I think we need to shift the responsibility of a person's health to that person.  My neighbor has a 52 inch plasma Sony Bravia, a blue ray player, Direct TV, High Speed Internet, a Wii, an X-box 360, a Ford F-150, but has no medical insurance for his son.  Of course, he claims it should be provided for him.  Uhhhh, what's wrong with his priorities.  I drive a Chevy S-10, a much smaller TV, no blue ray.  I do have a Wii.  But I do have insurance on my kids.  Plus, my home has MY income alone.  He has his wife and himself.  Naturally, they make more than me.  My job has taken my to some of the poorest homes, but I'm amazed at how much luxuries many "poor" people have.  If health care is low on the list for so many of them, I feel they need a system that makes them prioritize.  My opinion only.  (and some others I'm sure)

    For all other people, take pride in yourself and in your ability to provide for yourself.  If you find a hungry person who can't feed themselves, don't just give them a fish to eat, try your best to give them a fishing pole so they can feed themselves day after day.  When you find the rare person who just can't support themselves then yes, we must step in to help.  But when i see a man with one leg selling newspapers at an intersection,(I buy from him every chance I pass) I know more people asking for just a fish need to give the effort for themselves.  I grew up in a rough neighborhood of government projects and at a very early age I told MYSELF, not the government, that I will NOT be coming back so help me.  I'm not rich, I live in a two bedroom apartment, but I have my goals I work for everyday.  It's MY LIFE, MY GOALS, MY RESPONSIBILITY.

    Dora, I know it's your life is your own as well, and your happiness is too.  I truly hope you have happiness regardless of others.  I've been discriminated against for my race, but I never let anyone keep me down.  I do see your passion, but you also must have focus and control.  I do not agree with you, but believe me, I have friends and family that disagree with me who I love dearly.  I've said it before in previous posts, this is the greatest country in the world and you have every right to voice your opinion and try to change things.  I have the upmost respect for you for fighting for it.  But when you fail, keep moving forward and try again.  Do not let anger and frustration control your actions and words.
  • Prosta
    does no one have a sane response to my post? we do not have to be enemies. there is another choice... we don't even have to agree. We just all need to unite against government in ou relationships.

    Come on... unless you're out for blood fro EITHER SIDE... you would ally with me to remove government. Religion would validate marriage... civil unions would have equal rights even on a federal level and.... AND WE ALL DON'T force our views on each other.


    Seriously people. fuck our own personal views. LET'S HOLD UP OUR TRADITIONS AS AMERICANS!!!

    Those traditions do not means we agree, but that we respect each other's rights to disagree so long as those views are not forced on each other. We can all live in peace, School needs to be illegal to talk about relationships. That should be left to the public and families!!! The UNITED STATES OF AMERICA HAS NEVER OK'D a government to force one view over the other. I was sick to vote yes on 8, but if I had to then yes on 8!!! PEOPLE Have a g od given right to be immoral!!! we equally have a right to diconnect ourselves from that immoralitty!

    Look.... seriously till 100 years ago homosexuals could have started a religion where god ok's gay marriage. Baptised, MORMONS (I AM MORMON), or any other religion did not have to accept that. In reality if a h omosexual couple tried to say they were maried the mormons, baptists and all other christians, muslims and so on would have laughed saying NO! BUT!!! with that no came the freedom that the united states of America fought for. Sorry, but our civil war and revolutionary war was not fought just for the people who agreed with the foundin fathers. IT WAAAAS, however, fought to support and save the founding father's ideals of christianity ( pay attention fellow christians) while at the same time protecing FREEDOM!! Our current US government would have our founding fathers and fighters rolling over in their grave.  They didn't just fight for our freedom, but for the disconnection of  governmet, religion and state. WE CAN ALL EXIST IN PEACE!! Let god judge... but Don't surrender your freedoms. Prop 8... te marriage protection act and so on may seem FINE!!.... but it does not give people the right to choose... THAT IS THE MORMON FOUNDATION!!!! The right to choose who and WHAT you will become.

    For every person here not Mormon (LDS)... we have a factual beief that before we came here tere was a war of morals in heaven. 1/4 of the entire host of heaven went with Satan. they have been learning from day 1! Any mormon who say homosexuality instantly declares you damned is FUCKEN STUPID!!! Just as the word fucken is innocent to the educated. Look... to MORMONS!! Who's plan in the "pre-existance" had everyone reporting to SATAN before they made any choice... yeh.. that was not the plan opf free will. We're not all meant to choose life with god... We're meant to be happy. END OF STORY!! we are each our own judges. Many.. I RPEAT IN ALL HOLY GLORY!!! MANY HOMOSEXUALS will find that Jesus paid for their weaknesses and that god understand their point of view and LIFESTYLE. he does not support it where it can be resisted,  but we're not put here to be perfect!! We're put here to decide... with free will... who and what will will become with our our set of PERSONAL TRIALS... which no only a handle of men have been given the authority to judge! In these last day... in the days of the fal of the USA... there is no longer room for religious vanity!!! We all have mistakes. We all have weaknesses. Mine in alchohol, porn, sex and a LARGE SOCIAL LIFE... that social life includes homosexual friend who know my standards. but who also know my respect for their free will!!

    I pray... you wil see. I hacve Bishops, stake presidents and 70's in my family. I have been called to the calling of stake president in Ukraine... or had the idea passed by... which I delcined as I was not ready... BUT!!! ABOVE ALL OUR RELIGION... GOD'S RELIGION  is bout free will!!!

    That means we need homosexual allies to remove the US government from our relationships. WE DO NOT HAVE TO VALIDATE THEIR SEX LIFES OR RELATIONSHIP UNLESS MANDATED BY LAW... that alone is why I voted yes on 8. If it's my religion or homosexual freedom... I have to choose what I know is true.

    Dora seems very heart felt... GOD JUDGES US ON OUR HEARTS!! She is thus innocent if she honestly feels that way!! YOU!! are commanded as christians to forgive EVERYONE!! you know better and will be judge.

    My Christian Brothers ans sisters... in the name of god!! I am nt asking you to EMBRACE HOMOSEXUALITY!! I would still prompt you to say yes on 8!! BUT!!! with equal ZEAL!!! we must now remove government from our relationships. My homosexual friends. we don't have to be enemies!! We can be allies! I have many gay friend as a main stream musician. Check myspace DOT com / prostamusic. I am no liar!!

    I do not support homosexual relations being forced on anyone, but if you so choose then that is where you choose to be!! THAT IS THE PURPOSE OF LIFE!! I do not know what is happening in you head.

    We all need to stop beng enemies and unite!!! IF YOU REMOVE THE FORCE OF GOVERNMENT WE ARE ALL FREE TO HAVE OUR OW RELIGION!!! NONE OF US ARE FORCED TO EMBRACE A VIEW NOT OUR OWN!!

    We can all have our own paradise. no need to force. let us unite... please. Our nation's traditions are dieing and if that happen it leaves us open to invasion. LET US UNITE IN TH ECAUSE OF FREEDOM!! RON PAUL!!
  • davidwwalters
    JackieM  (142)
    <<David:  so you are saying that you don't trust your own government to negotiate fees and to be watchdogs over social security choices?  hmmm!  what does that tell me?>>
    -as i said in 133,   "......i saw that move (Bush's plan for SS)
    as a free lunch for investment bankers." 
    If congress and the president mandates Americans have money with held from their pay checks for their money to be funneled to an investment banking firm, then that would be a tax handout, would it not?  This kind of welfare is not a prescription most Americans would agree to.
    Troy (143)
    <<
    don't just give them a fish to eat, try your best to give them a fishing pole so they can feed themselves day after day.
    >>
    -and if the fishing hole is dried up? And if he or she goes to the river to fish, the pollution that taints the fish is libel to kill them.....yeah, the bible has lots to offer.  We can pick and choose what we want out of that book.
    " He said to them:
    But now if you have a purse , take it along; and the same goes for a knapsack.
    And if you don't have a sword, sell your coat and buy one"

    -The Gospel of LUKE Ch.22/36
    ........
    is one of my favorites.
  • JackieM
    David--i'm not sure how you think it would be a tax handout.  investing in mutual funds is a better way to invest in the long run if given the chance and provided you are young!  the government can limit the profits on the investment managers.  if the government was efficient and hired qualified folks to manage social security, the investment banker issue would be a "no-brainer."  There are several ways deal with the tax situation and that would have to be decided.  it could work to everyone's advantage.  of course, as i said before, everyone has the option of staying "as is."  choices equal more freedom.  i earn the money and it is supposed to be for my future so i should have a say in how much of a return i get, where it is invested and be able to see its progression through the years.  of course, if people are dependent on the government to decide for them, people would not have to think for themselves (robots).  learning could become obsolete for most.
  • davidwwalters
    <<David--i'm not sure how you think it would be a tax handout.>>
    -JackieM(147)
    if an amount of money is withheld from your paycheck, you are being taxed.
  • JackieM
    David:  if money is withdrawn from my paycheck and goes into my account and i can choose from a few investments, i will make more money than the small amount of taxes that would be taken from me.  hopefully the government would treat it as a roth ira and the taxes would be taken care of.  what a wonderful idea!  freedom!
  • Prosta
    We're talking investments here eh?

    Invest outside the US is markets that have currency growing in value against the US dollar. I was only retired at age 26 on less than min wage, but I'm sure you guys know more than me.

    europac.net
  • Prosta
    sorry for typos. I type four languages every day... getting rusty
  • JackieM
    Prosta-- We were talking about how we as Americans should have choices when it comes to investing our money that we pay into social security.  setting up private accounts would allow for more investment choices instead of the money going into one big blackhole and getting the treasury rate, which the last time i checked was 0%.  David thinks the investment bankers would get richer and people would lose their money.  right now we are not even guaranteed that social security will be there when i retire because it has been mismanaged and people who haven't worked and contributed are stealing money from it (government's approval) or they are taking more than they put in!  so if people had their own accounts and could get statements periodically, they could track their own money!  that makes more sense than the current system we have today.  however, thanks to the democrats and the democrats who claim to be republicans but are not, our government is going to control every citizen more and more each day.  communism, socialism, or whatever--it is all the same when people are not in charge of their own lives.  it is sickening!  oh and get this--this idiot obama wants to put geithner in as the head of treasury.  what a joke.  he should be in tax court or in jail!  he didn't pay some of his taxes for several years but paid them only a day or two before it was announced they he was nominated, was responsible for coming up with the failed tarp plan, had an illegal working for him and i can't remember the other "mistake" he made.  anyway, his irresponsiblity may get him rewarded in the eyes of democrats and put him into one of the most important jobs in Washington.  regular folks would be in the unemployment line or jail if they did this, but thanks to democrats, this guy will probably be successful!  now just knowing this should explain what the obama and his crooked team (reid, dodd, pelosi and frank) are doing to this country!  i could go on and on but only the people who saw this coming and voted for McCain will get it!
  • Troy
    Ummmm, David.  If the fish hole was dried up then either all would suffer or move to another hole.  Sorry, I don't buy into the victim role.  I've seen it all; from a girl who claimed she can't work because someone opened the file cabinet door hitting her knee, to a guy who claimed his back went out only to be found playing basketball at the gym.

    Are there legitimate situation where people just can not provide for themselves.  Of course, and we should take care of them starting with their family members.  The sad reality there are thousands upon thousands of people living off the backs of others because of simple laziness.  Sure, let's help the construction worker I met who fell 4 floors down in an accident caused by inappropriate safety measures.  That guy broke his pelvis, his ankles, his knees, omg just about everything.  I know he can no longer work; he does need help.  And yes, I would bring him a fish.

    But if your heart bleeds for every single person putting out there hand the please go ahead and give what you can to them.  But do not force me or others give up what we work for so many people can abuse the system.  I do plenty locally as everyone should who can.  My church gives groceries to families who are in financial troubles or have suffered a crisis and for whatever reason can't get food.  Yes, there are two widows who cannot take care of themselves, so the church provides food, lawn care, even house cleaning for them.

    I believe strongly on our preamble, "...promote the general welfare" not provide.  However, I understand many people are uncomfortable in those who belief in a higher power, so they are more comfortable in receiveing things from government rather than from a people who are told to love everyone and to serve others.  Are all Christians and religious people perfect?  Certainly not, but I'd rather be living my life trying daily for a higher purpose that just living for no purpose other than getting what I can out of life while it lasts.
  • Prosta
    HMMM.... Well. McCain woouldn't have been a bed of roses either. Ron Paul was the ONLY Candidate I saw saying smaller government. Seriusly, getting kicked in the balls after getting punch in the face is change but it stil hurts! ANYNOE wo voted for Obama is ignorant. Seriously, black people make race an issue. Like Obama ridin in Lincoln's car.... WHAT THE HELL WAS THE ELECTION ABOUT??? THE USA OR BLACK PRIDE OVER WHITIES!!??

    I don't care where you invest inside the USA. You're screwed unless you get out! I'm not getting any benefits on SS and had my payemnts been left to me I could have retired at least 5 Americans. I am only 28 right now.

    Just because yo have a need for something does not mean you have a rigt to it. Social Security is unconstituional. Government needs OUT of of lives. People need to start loving and caring for their families and there will be no need for social security. If mom and pop need it we care for them.

    This country is sick. We're taught all other countries are evil! We're taught that the USA IS ALWAYS SUPREME... ALL LIES!
  • davidwwalters
    <<Sorry, I don't buy into the victim role. >>
    -Maybe not, but many on the conservative end of the spectrum like to cast business in the victim role.
    <<The sad reality there are thousands upon thousands of people living off the backs of others because of simple laziness.>>
    -from my perspective, this is an overblown problem.  Have you ever applied for food stamps?  Social Services doesn't just shower would be applicants with large sums of money.....
    Yet there is quite a bit of waste in our military, which considering the portion of our budget it consumes would warrant a similar  vigilance.  Do you ever wonder how much money could be saved by building say one less submarine?  How many homeless vets would that shelter i wonder?
  • davidwwalters
    The above comment(155)was in response toTroy's(153)comment.
  • JackieM
    Cindy:  you are in the right place and there are some of us here.  however, we have some liberals here who like to spread their hatred for everyone and everything!  Personally, i'm so glad you are here!  WELCOME!  WELCOME!  as i have posted many times, we need GOD now more than in every part of our lives.  for example, as a result of taking God out of schools, they are a disaster!  of course, the government speaks for itself!
  • Prosta
    The dictionary definition of conservative is "resistant to change" according to princeton.edu

    I am a conservative Libertarian.

    All separation of church and state means is that we don't put church in a president's role. Churches and the institutions they create are still allowed protection of government. Passing laws to protect churches from invasion is not putting church into a political office. I's simply giving them the protection they are granted. We had a protection of church and state before. We will have it again. When that happens no prop 8's will need to be passed. no homosexual will have any room for argument AND they will have no way of forcing their views on others.

    When you remove god the people will perish. They may still function on a  biological level, but are like walking dead having no place for god and his guidance in their lives.
  • Prosta
    and for the record Mormons hold Christ as their lord (SAME JESUS AS YOU) and Savior and are therefore CHRISTIANS
  • davidwwalters
    cindy(157)......
    <<
    While we are not to judge being gay or any sin for that matter--we do have a right to stand up for our beliefs as Christians and for God's word. Why is it that gay people get so angry and vengeful at "Christians"?
    >>

    So don't judge cindy.....if you personally are not engaging in "gay" behavior and you're not advocating "gay behavior" you are standing up for your beliefs as a Christian and God's word.  The reason gays are upset with so many fundamentalist Christians is that some of these leaders(preachers) are stirring up their flocks at the expense of these "sinful" gays. 

    prosra(160)
    <<
    When you remove god the people will perish
    . They may still function on a  biological level, but are like walking dead having no place for god and his guidance in their lives.>>
    -As an atheist, you know i take exception to this statement.  Excluding supernatural explanations for universal events make a rich, more intellectual experience for that individual.  And my guidance morally is not any different from yours.  In place of prayer is contemplation.  The "Golden Rule"(which make scant reference to God) is a working template for my life.
  • Bud Mullins
    I too have known homosexual people.  I have never had a problem with anyone's sexual preference until they became so bold that they now want to infiltrate the churches and push their agenda on the people in the churches.  THAT IS WHAT IS HAPPENING!  It's like their message is "YOU WILL ACCEPT ME AS NORMAL..."  That's wrong in the eyes of the religious believer.  I can never accept "gay" as being normal.
  • Dora
    "infiltrate the churches"     ???
    Who?
    How?
    Where?
    Since when do you have a monopoly on religious thought,  Bub?

    ... you "don't have a problem with anyone's sexual preference"... 
    yet you never will accept this as "normal"...

    you speak out of both sides of your mouth.

    first,  the term: "sexual preference" is a misnomer - suggesting that homosexuality  is a "preferred choice".     here is a little experiment for you, Bub... take your little homophobic brain and imagine this, if you can...  think how dreadful a thought it is for you to imagine yourself engaged in a homosexual encounter...yes... naked and all. doing "the nasty"...
    make you gag?  repulsive?  hebe jeebies?  total turn-off?  
    thought so. 
    now you know how i feel around you. it's not a "CHOICE" - it's not a "preference"... male sexual organs to me are repulsive.  nausea inducing,  and utterly non-interesting. 

    take your noise and nose out of my bedroom and my life.
    you believe in your bible... enjoy the heck out of it- i really don't care- but don't push your dogma and fairy tales on me or make laws based upon your guilt driven religion and personal fears!

    we just are not going to take it any more.
  • Dora
    and i have another news flash for you bub,  you probably "know" more homosexuals than you realize.  we don't all wear flannel, or spandex,  or leather chaps, and have a lisp.  
    after a 10 year marriage to a man- i got divorced to be with my partner- i have two children- she has two children... all are adults now- three of the four are married (to persons of the opposite sex- to let you know that yet another of your notions are non-factual)- my partner and i have been together for 30 years- always faithful and never happier.  she is a vice president in a major retail organization- i am an illustrator and author of children's books.  your children have probably spent time musing over these.  

    our life is probably far more "normal" than yours will ever be-
    for certain,  there is more love, tolerance, and  understanding in our
    our lives and that of our children.  they will pass this on... and you?  will you pass along your hate?
  • davidwwalters
    JackieM(157).......
    <<
    however, we have some liberals here who like to spread their hatred for everyone and everything!>>
    -is the Hatred really coming from the left?
  • Bud Mullins
    Dora, I'm not the one who's parading aroung trying to make everyone believe my way is normal.  I KNOW I AM NORMAL.  God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve...
  • Bud Mullins
    The problem is that you and people like you keep trying to make people (like me) who believe different, accept your way of life...  Ain't going to happen!  I really don't give one big hoot what you do in your bedroom.  I guarantee you I have NEVER been in it and have no desire to be in it.  If you would shut up and be quiet, about what you do, stop spreading it all over the Internet what you are and how it feels, no one would say a thing about it!
  • Dora
    oh, i see, bub...that freedom of speech thing is just for heterosexuals.
    i missed that part. 

    why not take your own advice and relocate to a country that believes in a theocracy... there are a number of them available to you...pick one.

    there are none so blind as those who will not see.
  • Bud Mullins
    How many kids do you and your partner plan to have and which one is going to father those kids???
  • Michael R.
    "I'm not the one who's parading aroung trying to make everyone believe my way is normal"

    Normalcy and religion aside, can someone please explain to me if there are legal reasons ie benefits, insurance, etc that differ between civil unions and marriage?  I don't care about the religious part, I figure no one will ever find common ground there but I do wonder if some rights are not afforded a civil union that is to a marriage. 

    I honestly do not understand and hope someone can explain it to me.
  • davidwwalters
    Bud Mullins....

    http://www.blogthings.com/areyouhomophobicquiz/

    Homophobia: (from Greek homós: one and the same; phóbos: fear, phobia) is an irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals.
    -Take the test....
    Watch an episode of Will&Grace
  • Dora
    Michael,  Thank you for asking- The Human Rights Campaign (HRC)
    answers very clearly your questions at the following link:

    http://www.hrc.org/issues/5517.htm

    Not likely Bud here will look unless it linked to "girls gone wild".
    What a shame to reach adulthood with so little education,  so little understanding,  so much selfishness.  I will put in a good word for you at the next meeting of the Pastafarians.   Perhaps the Great Spaghetti Monster will forgive you.
    In the meantime a little prayer you could work on Bud:

    Yarr Most High Noodliness,
    who art in the Sky,
    blessed be thy name.
    Thy Pirate Ship come,
    thy Will be done,
    on earth, as It is in the Sky.
    Lead us not to Kansas,
    But to somewhere more interesting.
    RAmen.

    http://www.venganza.org/
  • Bud Mullins
    Just a little history there for those of you that refuse to study it.  "In the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth."  Soon after he created Adam and Eve, Adam for Eve and Eve for Adam, and he saw that it was good.  I have not read where God ever changed that little thing he did when he created a MALE and FEMALE of all species on earth so they could populate the earth.  And so it has been that way ever since...
  • Dora
    Your version and you are free to believe in it... also Santa,  the Great Pumpkin and my second grade teacher's likeness on a cream puff.
  • davidwwalters
    So Bud......are you a Homophobic (did you take the test)?
    You search you scriptures to comfort yourself with the thought that God likes you more than those homos......
    But the problem with the scriptures is that as perfect as God may be, his/her/its word has been filtered by imperfect people who wrote this stuff  down in the bible.  Part of reading and understanding the bible is to understand the imperfections of those writing it all down.  No two early manuscripts are alike.....and God didn't speak English anyway, because it wasn't even a language back then. 
    Genesis as history?  To understand the bible, you have to understand the intellectual limitations of those writing all that stuff down.  Try looking up "textural criticism" sometimes and read up on this and how it applies to copying and re-copying the books of the bible.
    Homosexuality is as old as history, and it is not confined to the human species either.  God must have made homosexuality, just as he/she/it saw fit to allow human conflict to be a part of his will.  Bud, i urge you to accept God's will and accept gays as part of God's unique creation.
  • Bud Mullins
    Dora, I haven't seen a "Girl's Gone Wild" flick as of yet.  However, I probably wouldn't turn my head if one came along.  Remember, you labeled me as Heterosexual just by the way I talk!  So, by labeling me, although you don't know me, is your way of making you feel better, right?

    David, you're wrong...  I don't dislike you.  I don't dislike anyone, I don't hate anyone.  I simply can't approve of the actions of some people.  From what I gather from your writing, I'm sure you are that way to a certain degree.  I couldn't be a "True to God Christian" if I did.  I don't approve of the SIN!  It's a sin, what part of that don't you understand.  I know that is only my belief but to me it's REAL!  I'm not homophobic either.  Homosexuality is just another sin in the world we live in.  It is brought on by acts of human beings.  I just thank God each day that I do not have to deal with the consequences of being gay.

    Does that entitle me the label of "HOMOPHOBIC?"  Because if it does legally, then I guess I am.
  • davidwwalters
    Bud....
    i'm sure you are a good, conservative Christian.
    <<I simply can't approve of the actions of some people.>>
    -Well i can agree with you on this!
    But you seem concerned with other people's sin....
    << I don't approve of the SIN!  It's a sin, what part of that don't you understand>>
    .....if gay sex is a sin, then don't do it.  That's what always puzzled me about conservative Christians......they seem overly concerned with other people's sins.  Leave the gays alone........
    <<I just thank God each day that I do not have to deal with the consequences of being gay.>>
    So thank God for making you straight, but for those God made gay, leave them in peace.
  • Bud Mullins
    David, thanks for calming me down a bit.  Believe me, I do leave the gay community alone.  I guarantee you I leave it alone.  However, as a Christian, I am bound to be concerned about any sinner's soul.  Performing homosexual acts is just one sin.  I can't just not be concerned for the soul of the sinner.  ANY SIN...

    Jesus Christ was commissioned here on earth as God's child to permit me salvation from my sins if I would help others do the same.  I PRAY FOR ALL SINNERS.  I'm not hung out on homosexuals like you say.  It just happened that there must be one or more on these blogs that responded to me as a Hypocritical Christian.  I have just been responding to that.

    You may not welcome it but I do pray for you as being a sinner.  That is one of my duty's as a Christian.  I don't apologize to anyone for my beliefs.  Especially, Satan...
  • davidwwalters
    Bud.....
    -There is nothing wrong with faith.  I commend it, for following the teachings of Jesus is a good thing.  Our only difference on this issue(Jesus)
    is the divinity part.....believe me, i read the Gospels (not a huge fan of Paul though).
    I spent  some time as a homeless Vet in a Christian Mission ("Faith Based Initiative")......that event had more to do with my ultimate embrace of atheism than anything in my life.  As a sinner, i was treated some kind of second class citizen at that place(Durham Rescue Mission).  Eventually, i was kicked out as a "reprobate".  Nothing against Christians as individuals, it's the leadership i resent.
  • globalhoax
    Well...to buy into the message, you have to assume that same sex couples could get married and that marriage is a right offered to anyone in any situation.  With marriage being the union of a man and woman, and anything else something else...the ad doesn't make sense.


    If you believe that any combination of humans can be marriage...then you have to buy into the lie that the church is attempting to take over the state...when the fact is it has been the people who have voiced their will in their votes.


    in either case, the very foundation of this ad is based in deception


    The whole trip about gay marriage isn't about gay marriage, its about the gay agenda gaining power.
  • Conservative Thinker
    "i can only speak for this sinner, but i proclaim there is no god simply because of how believers use god to justify hatred & bigotry against others." said David (#8)

    That's the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. You just admitted that there is a God, but you are just choosing to reject Him with a "because i feel like it" attitude that my 12 year old has since grown out of.

    As for gay marriage, I thought this whole thing began with gay couples wanting the same rights as married couples...well you have that in civil unions. But you don't want that now. It's not enough. You need to be legitimized. The truth is that you want "marriage" because then, in your eyes, it will legitimize your choice of being with a person of the same sex. If you are so great and we suck, why do you want to be defined the same way as us? If you believe in what you have, make it your own. Don't impose your beliefs by discrediting others.

    What you are doing to Christians is what you THINK they are doing to you. You are intent on pushing yourselves on people who don't believe in what you have chosen, yet you berate Christians who have their own beliefs. Get over yourselves. You want to be gay...great, be gay, but define yourselves as gay. You have chosen not to be a heterosexual couple, so don't expect to be defined as such.

    I am so sick of seeing video clips of gay people dancing around chruches in ridiculous costumes in an attempt to embarrass the parishoners. Well the only ones you embarrass are yourselves, plus you justify any beliefs they may have about homosexuals. Why don't you just give people a reason to dislike you? True Christians don't hate gay people, they do not agree with that way of life because homosexuality is wrong.

    If everyone was homosexual, humanity would become extinct. Think about it. Procreation is only possible between a man and a woman and if you need to use science to create a child, then you are defying nature. It's so obvious to those who are not afraid to see the truth.

    No, Christians do not hate gay people, but based on your demonstrations, it is easy to see that you have a lot of hate inside of you.
  • ChrisG
    This is for the very first poster, Alicia.
    Alicia, first off, I am not a Mormon but I will say that I will NOT "evolve" into something so stupid and retarded. The "rest" of society has turned into a bunch of whiny crybabies begging Big Brother Government for help. How pathetic. I am 26 years old and know damn well what is going on. I have nothing against gays but everyone needs to quit being childish and playing stupid racist cards...discrimination cards...like they even exist. They really don't. If everyone actually acted their age and grew up, maybe society wouldn't be this messed up. Don't blame the Christians, Mormons, Catholics and whoever else. Take a good look in the mirror before you start throwing the blame.
  • Dora
    as a 26 year old,  Chris,  you better than many here should be well aware of the "who cares" attitude the younger generations have regarding homosexuality.   By and large it is the older generations (let's just say 50+) and hardcore fundamentalist christians that have a "problem" with homosexuality.  if you doubt this, there are any number of recent polls available here online to check the facts.  civil unions that grant the SAME rights as a heterosexual couple receives are "no big deal" to younger generations.   it is, in fact, to a majority , common sense and the right thing to do... as right as women receiving equal pay for equal work.
  • Dora
    gosh ... this should make your day,  Bud.  I know that you will be happy for me.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/04/us/04iowa.htm...
  • Chris G
    Actually, Dora...
    It has nothing to do with constitutional rights. I just got done reading that article on another website. Its sad. Our founding fathers would be turning over in their graves if they knew what America was like today.
    Everyone wants a right to something. Stupid.
  • Bud Mullins
    Dora (182)

    Gosh, Dora - you forgot to mention the most inportant fact.  That God has a big problem with homosexuality!  He is who you need to take heed to, not the 50's plus or the hardcore, fundamentalist christians.  It really does not matter what I think - IT DOES MATTER WHAT GOD THINKS...

    Maybe you need to take all your education and read up a little on that.
  • Jess
    I agree with Bud.  God is the ultimate decision maker, and ultimate judge.  We are human, and we will slip up, but its not our place to say what is right and wrong, it's God's.  Homosexuality is in fact a sin, it's dirty in God's eyes.

    Still, no matter what, God loves those who do sin just as much as He loves those who strive not to.  God loves you too, Dora.
  • Titus Hunt
    However, it is our place to fight for our country when it is definitely under attack by those who seek to destroy it.  Communism/Socialism is not what I'm willing to accept.  We know the signs of Socialism are here and there are also big indicators of Communism!  So whether anyone disagrees or agrees with me, I will say the folks who voted for obama are wrong and it is up to the common sense folks to fight for what is right!
  • makomike
    http://www.mgparrish.com/prop8sm.jpg