Government Regulated Health Care: A huge mistake

August 5th, 2009 Calvin Lyman

It is sad that America has gone so far down the road of statism that our President and many of our Congressional leaders are attempting to pass a bill that will nationalize our health care. This is yet another step towards socialism! The bill, H.R. 3200, will cost over $1 trillion. H.R. 3200 is even more costly than the economic stimulus bill passed earlier this year!

Those of you who think that the stimulus bill was a good idea, don’t you think that we might be spending just a tad too much? Our national debt has climbed to 11 trillion, and the liberals in Congress haven’t done anything to stop it’s climb. Instead they spend their time and energy passing bills that take away power from the people and give it to the government, and spend so much money that we can’t hope to pay it off any time soon. It is our duty as Americans to make sure that they do not pass this bill. Winston Churchill was one of the great politicians of the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Churchill once said that whoever does not learn from history is destined to repeat it.

Throughout history, it ha been made clear that printing massive amounts of money to throw at all your problems temporarily solves problems, but in the end causes runaway inflation.. But the money being spent is not the most troubling aspect of this new bill. Everything about this new health care system would be regulated by the government. Government would also cut funding for Medicare and mandate “end life” counseling. This health care system would depend on a rationing mechanism, and this rationing would begin with the elderly.

No one should have the right to take away your right to life, even if you don’t have much longer to live. This bill is loaded with dangerous and unconstitutional items. Among these are included Government restriction of the enrollment of special needs people in Nationalized health care, as well as the exemption of individual taxes, purchasing mandates, and fines for non resident aliens, that are required of every legal, U.S. citizen.

This is simply outrageous.

A recent Rasmussen poll found that the majority of Americans oppose Obama’s plan for government-run health care. Yet these liberals continue to try to shove it down our throats. Certain Republicans who have the guts to fight back against this madness have proposed 31 amendments to H.R. 3200, all of which the Democrats have opposed. One would have allowed states to opt out, another would have prevented taxpayer-funded health benefits from going to illegal immigrants, yet another would have prevented bureaucrats from making personal medical decisions for patients. The list goes on and on. The fact that Democrats said no to all of these amendments makes their purpose clear: To take away more of our individual freedoms, and give it to themselves.

We as Americans must stop these bureaucrats from bringing this bill into effect. The consequences of anything less are dire. If your Senators and Representative have not announced plans to vote against this bill, please call or e-mail them and beg them to oppose it.


Rating: 2.8/5 (28 votes cast)

Did you enjoy this article? If so, please subscribe to my blog!
  • craigshepard
    How is it that you are bought and payed for by the insurance, pharma, and banking industries for nothing. President (I know you hate that) Obama is working for us. Yet the yocalls can't trip over each other fast enough to get in line and shout exactly what these thieving corporation want you to say. I think we give you to much air time, you are pitifull excuses for Americans. The fact that a black man is the leader of the free world sends you into a spasmic idiot convulsion, it would be funny if it were not just so damn tiring. I tell you what pack your bags and move down to Texas, there seems to be an equally inept class of people down there, you can have your own idiot country, make bush your king and spend all your money on health care. To tell you the truth I don't give a Sh!t what you do just please stop wasting my air. You are a tiresome, petty, sorry excuse for Americans and I for one am embarrased to have any connection to you at all.
  • AckAck
    ceaigshepard, I should not be lowering myself to respond to your idiotic remarks. However, giving the fact that I am a great American and I allow everyone ONE mistake, I will respond.

    First off, you are one of the PUPPETS who is attached to Obama and ALL you can do is follow him around. With that in mind, nothing I can say will change your mind or your course of direction. People like you can't seem to realize BHO has played the BLACK politician ROLE every since he has been in politics. OBAMA IS HALF BLACK. He is not a TRUE African American at least... But since stupid people allow him to be "AFRICN AMERICAN" and cling to him like bees on honey, he has played it out for you, ALL THE WAY.

    That in itself don't disqualify him to be President of the United States. What disqualifies him to hold that office is the FACT that there is not an acceptable form of proof of birth that he was even born in the United States on file! HE HAS NOT PRODUCED A US BIRTH CERTIFICATE you moron. How much of this shit can you people accept and keep on track with your stupidity. You amaze me in many ways!

    God be with you.
  • Dora
    Aliy, since you seem to have conveniently ignored my response to your question- favoring instead to pose it in other non-related threads... i will place my response here as well:

    US Constitution, Amendment IX, Amedment VI cl.2
    Ratified by 11 states on December 15, 1791. First US federal law.

    The first paragraph of our first federal law mentions six goals towards which this first (and all future laws?) are directed. These five goals are the reasons we have a government: (1) to establish Justice, (2) insure domestic tranquility, (3) provide for the common defense, (4) promote the general Welfare and (5) secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity.

    Amendment IX reads (in its entirety): The enumeration in Constitution of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others [other rights] retained by the people.

    In other words the Amendments to the Constitution were explicitly NOT intended to delineate the complete set of rights that the American people were to have - not even back then in 1791. And the Congress thought it important to state this explicitly.

    In fact, the first draft of the US Constitution which Thomas Jefferson received from James Madison (Jefferson was in Europe on state business) did not have any amendments (no "Bill of Rights"). Jefferson wrote Madison that a short list such as the first ten Jefferson drafted ought to be included and Madison responded that specifying them was unnecessary since it was obvious that the people retain such rights - and that the only need was to restrict the power of the state. Jefferson replied yes it is obvious to us now, but it might not be so for future generations, so let's include at least this short basic list.

    Amendment VI, cl.2 reads: This Constitution . . . and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby.


    Aliy- As revolting as it is, I realize that you are a "I've got mine- get your own!" kind of gal. fortunately the LAWS that we in the United States follow make people like you verifiable nut cases, and horribly uneducated, leading you to your selfish attitude as well as ill-founded and illegal.
    Along with other documents, the United Nations Declaration of Human Rights,
    signed by all nations seeking UN membership in 1948, including the US, contains the following article: "Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control."
  • Lou
    I am writing in support of a strong public option for health care insurance, because I feel it is the best way to create competition among private insurance companies and get the kind of coverage my family wants and needs.

    There are a few key things that would improve my family's current health insurance situation. If these things are not part of health insurance reform for the average family, what's the point of any reform at all?

    1) Lower insurance premiums so that we don't have to choose between helping our children go to college and health care for ourselves. Recently our family income increased by 20% (about $10,000), but our health care premium increased at the same time by 300%, so that more than 1/4 of the recent income increase goes to health insurance coverage. Plus there is a $4000 yearly deductable on our plan. And this does not even cover dental, vision, or mental health expenses. At this time, we literally are regularly forced to make the following type of decision: between buying one text book for our college aged daughter ($250) and getting one of our broken teeth fixed ($280 - $1,800).

    2) Insurance that is continuing, so that each time my husband changes jobs (or his company switches insurance providers), we don't have to keep changing our primary physician. (This has happened to us 4 times in the past 10 years, and I would like to have more continuity of care than that, especially as we get older.)

    3) Insurance that doesn't disappear when my husband or I get sick. We have been very healthy all our lives, but we are both 50ish and worry that if we get seriously injured or ill, our insurance company may stop covering us even though we have each continuously paid heafty health insurance premiums for the past 30+ years.

    4) Insurance that is portable, so that if a "pre-existing condition" such as a diagnosis of cancer (the type of illness my husband and I probably would be most likely to get) occurs, we can still more freely from one job to the next to improve our family financial situation without the threat of losing our health coverage.

    As far as I and my family are concerned - health care reform is the most critical issue facing our family today. We can do our part to keep our excellent health, such as through exercise, diet, and safety precautions, but we purchase insurance in case of an unforeseen event. Since we live responsibly, and purchase this type of insurance, we don't want any dirty tricks should such an unforeseen event occur!

    Please address these mundane, yet important, key issues the average family faces.

    Thank you very much for your consideration.
  • flyfshr1cd
    Lou, Check this out to see for yourself if Obamacare meets your needs: http://www.WhiteHouse.com/realitycheck
  • flyfshr1cd
    McCain to that drooling woman last year when he was on the campaign trail at one of his Town Hall Meetings: "No maam, Obama is not a Muslim or a socialist". You're being Bushchitted!
  • flyfshr1cd
    Who can give me a link from a Conservative liesite about Obamacare. I'm not asking for a cut n paste opinion, but an actual link to the site. You're being Bushchited, and I'll prove it.
  • flyfshr1cd
    Ahhhhhhhhhhh, look at the characters here. aliy and bluestarmom. Chuckle. YOU CAN"T HANDLE THE TRUTH. If you could, you'd read the real Obama bill, and the great common myths about health care reform. This comes directly from the White House. http://www,WhiteHouse.gov/realitycheck
  • aliy
    OMG, I'm so sick of Susan. I can't win. She tells me she wants me to sight things in the bill to prove I've read it, I do and she's now saying I'm just getting fact from talk radio. I'm done, there is NO talking to an idiot. She is welcome to slam me all she wants on this site, I will no longer be responding to her.
  • 2bluestarmom
    Susanwallace contradicts herself. And I find it hard to believe she is educated much less a mother.

    Have you ever been in an abusive relationship? Verbally, physically?

    Typically the abuser spins the assaults to make the victim (we are not victims, I know they will spin that remark as well) think they are at fault. They play mind games. They are full of double standards and hipocrits.

    Either way, what we have here are sociopaths/psychopaths who thrive on this behavior. They get off on this.

    Remember "don't cast your pearls before the swine?" Well, there it is.

    They get their orders from their master and we'll leave it at that.
  • flyfshr1cd
    Oh hey, Cons. Read all about what YOUR Charles Krauthammer has to say about Palin. Death counseling, unmasked: Talking honestly about end-of-life decisions

    Friday, August 21st 2009, 4:00 AM

    Let's see if we can have a reasoned discussion about end-of-life counseling.

    We might start by asking Sarah Palin to leave the room. I've got nothing against her. She's a remarkable political talent. But there are no "death panels" in the Democratic health care bills, and to say that there are is to debase the debate.

    Read more: file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Chris%20Doyle/Desktop/My%20Pictures/2009-08-21_death_counseling_unmasked_talking_honestly_about_endoflife_decisions.html#ixzz0PDjEeiKW
    Liar Palin.
  • aliy
    Orders from their master.....And don't forget, their pay check from ACORN
  • Dora
    Aliy attends a town hall meeting... watch her in action!!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYlZiWK2Iy8
  • aliy
    My hairs longer but where can I get me one of those Obama as Hitler pictures!!! I gotta have one,

    Barney Frank's a dolt. He's a joke, he is a direct cause of the downfall of the real estate market and as a Jewish man, he should be PISSED at Obama's policies, Didn't Obama tell Franks "people" to give up land!? Didn't Obama tell Franks "people" they should be easier on the Palastinens!? If I were Barney Frank, I'd be more worried about Jewish people figuring out he's a nazi sympathiser than a girl with a picture asking questions. (which, by the way, he really didn't answer)
  • AckAck
    Dora, you gotta be the stupidest bitch in the world!
  • AckAck
    Aliy, are you and 2blues psychistrist? You gotta be because you two have waaaayyyyy toooooo much patience with these NUT CASES!
  • 2bluestarmom
    What is happening here is what has always happened here. They smell blood. Like scavengers they come in from everywhere. They go to all their liberal web sites and tell the other radical idiots to come here.

    They look at this a sport. Game. They know we want Health care reform. But that's not why they are here. They are raised this way by their radical parents who for the most part, hate God and anything He stands for.

    We should be honored but at the same time, we really do need to ignore them. They know how to engage you and set you up. So, put on the mind of Christ and walk away.

    When Christ was being conspired against on several occasions, he would disappear into the crowds. Not that he couldn't handle the idiots, it wasn't productive and they have the same mindset these people do.

    They have an Anti Christ spirit and that is what this battle is about. Good Vs Evil. They are evil. Plain and simple.

    I am only referring to radical, hateful, murdering, rebellious, deviants. Whether you call them libs or ?? it doesn't matter. For the most part, the far left is called that for a reason. Moderate libs typically want to disassociate themselves from these nuts.
  • markinboston
    In 2007 we spent $2.2 Trillion on helathcare, and did not cover millions of Americans. Spending a Trillion (Over 10 years - with that time frame not mentioned in your article) sounds like a bargain to me, especially when it covers 47,000,000 Americans.

    2007 U.S. health care spending was about $7,421 per resident and accounted for 16.2% of the nation’s Gross Domestic Product (GDP); this is among the highest of all industrialized countries. We need a change!

    I absolutely agree that printing money to cover short term problems is a serious error. If only Georrge W. Bush had not borrowed so much in order to give his rich crony buddies tax breaks, we might not be in such debt now.

    You write, "No one should have the right to take away your right to life". Is this another "Death Panel" allegation? That has been totally discredited. End of life care is very useful for terminal patients. Mandating it is not an error. If it proves to be impractical and wasteful, I believe the bill could be amended.

    I agree that illegal immigrants should not benefit from care, when they are in the country illegally, but denying them regular care will just mean they go to ER's, at a cost of $900 to be seen vs. $94 (avg cost) to see a GP doctor in an office visit.

    This is not a simple thing to resolve, but if we fail to we will continue to slide in terms of having a healthy, competitive population.
  • aliy
    Mark, do you know that 30 million of those 40 some odd uninsured are illgeal? Did you know there are provisions in the bill to cover them without them even making an effort to contribute? Did you know that another (at least) 10 million of those people actually DO qualify for medicaid but are too frigin lazy to get off their asses and fill out the 50 pages of application to get it?

    And after spending the trillions in the bail outs and cash for clunkers, and the stimulus....Can you really say anything is better off from the spending?

    What about the fact that insurance is a privilage, not a right. I understand the idea of laying and collecting taxes for infrastructure, but the point of taxes is they take from everyone, and provide something for everyone, police, military, roads, giving a poor man MY tax dollars for their insurance is NOT a right it's NOT a power the government has under the constitution and when the day is over, the figures don't actually play the way you think they do.

    In order to float this thing it was predicted that you would need 100% of the income for people making $75,000 a year and over for a total of 10 years and you STILL wouldn't dent this bill.

    So, let's recap, it's NOT actually 46 million AMERICANS that are uninsured, it's NOT a right you are given, it's NOT a power the constitution gives to the government and it's NOT costing this chump change you think it is.
  • petemuldoon
    Aliy,
    Did you know that your numbers are horses**t? 30 Million uninsured illegals? Really?

    Here is a link to an article from USA Today that quotes the Department of Homeland Security's report that there are 11.6 million illegal aliens in the United States. This article took me about 30 seconds to find.

    http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2009-02-23-...

    So, let's recap. Your numbers are all wrong. You are a liar.

    Insurance is a privilege? So what? So let's extend the privilege?

    Using your logic, the United States would still be without sanitary drinking water and sewage systems, because that is a privilege, not a right.

    Where do you get your list of rights, any way? From the Declaration of Independence? It's not even a law.

    Rights are what a society says they are. And you are an out-voted liar.
  • aliy
    Pet, you a a jackass. Sanitary drinking water and sewage systems are part of INFRASTRUCTURE. You know, one of the things the constitution DOES provide the government the right to lay and collect taxes for.

    I get my RIGHTS from the BILL OF RIGHTS. Although the delcaration of independence is a wonderful read. I am fully aware that it's not a law. Don't know where you came up with that either.

    I was using Obama's own estimate that there are 47 million uninsured. didn't realize it was only 27 million people, maybe HE should stop lying to us and spreading his own dis-information.

    Why are you so quick to offer my MY money to extend a privilege to people who are too lazy to earn them?

    Rights are NOT what society says they are they are laid out in plain black and white in the Bill of Rights and the powers of government are laid out in black and white in the constitution. You are obviously a fool who had done nothing but listen to O-blah-blah and his lies and are now showing true colors and going on the attack. I'm done with you.
  • petemuldoon
    Uh huh. The Constitution provides for "infrastructure." Hospitals and ambulances and the like could also be considered infrastructure.

    Don't tell me that you used Obama's numbers. You started talking about the 30 million illegal aliens. These don't exist, and Obama has no reason to say that they do.

    It is your responsibility to present the facts when you right. Not anyone else's.

    Just so you know, I was raised Republican, converted to libertarianism for a long time, and then decided to join the real world. Because I decided to think for myself.

    You, sir, seem content to let Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh do your thinking for you.
  • aliy
    First of all, it's MISS.

    Second: here is yet another source of the 30 million figure:

    http://www.coastalpost.com/09/08/05b.html\

    Third: I don't give a damn how you were raised, what you are or what you will be in 10 years. The end result is that you're going to pull articles YOU agree with and I'm going to pull stuff I KNOW is true.

    OUR Constitution:

    Section 8. [1] The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

    General Welfare does NOT mean take from me and give to someone else, it's GENERAL as in something everyone uses. No, ambulatory services are NOT part of that. I've never been in an ambulance in my life. NO Healthcare for the poor and lazy is NOT part of that either.

    You take from all, you give something all can use, Post offices, roads, etc. Taking money from me and giving it to someone who just wants my money is NOT something they have the power to do. EVER!

    The bottom line of this whole thing is hunger doesn't give the government the right to dictate the cost of bread. Thirst doesn't give the government the right to dictact the cost of milk. You can't argue that it does. You're going to look really stupid doing it.

    And so you're fully aware of what I think you're trying to do.....You are fighting me to let them pass the flood gate that will lead to the government telling EVERYONE what they can charge and make. SOCIALISM plain and simple as that.
  • petemuldoon
    Well, Miss Aliy,

    Your link was to nowhere. But a couple minutes of research led me to uncover the fact that the Coastal Post is a small publication, handed out in the free literature section of grocery stores in the Marin County area, whose sole claim to fame is being blasted for anti-semitism by the Anti-Defamation League.

    So I'll just go ahead and rely on the Dept. of Homeland Security's official numbers, if you don't mind.

    As for the rest of your rant, I can't think of anything more germane to the "general welfare" than health care for all citizens, can you?

    And you quote an article of the Constitution that explicitly gives Congress the power to collect taxes in order to provide for that general welfare.

    In fact, we now subsidize health care for around 80% of our citizens. You argument would lead me to believe that you support increasing that to 100%, so that the benefits are uniform. I would also support that.

    You never used an ambulance? So what? I've never used Hawaii Highway H-1 either. It's really kind of irrelevant, when you think about it. I suppose avoiding ambulances is something to be personally proud of. I should congratulate you.

    The "bottom line of this whole thing" has nothing to do with the price of bread, or who sets it. We were talking about health care, remember? And yes, I would look stupid arguing that the government should set the price of milk. But not as stupid as you do, right now, claiming that I actually made that argument.

    I don't know what it means to "pass a flood gate", but you've obviously decided that it's a good debate tactic to simply put words in other peoples mouths, and to capitalize the buzzwords that you got from Glenn, Bill, and Rush.
  • aliy
    Idiot. Acorn is honestly wasting money paying you to try and argue with me. No one in their right minds can be THAT stupid.

    Let's try this ONE MORE TIME and I'm done with you if you are still too stupid to get it.

    1. I'll use your figure from now on, it STILL leaves us with less than 12 million people uninsured in this country, so either figure you use is still supporting my argument, yours more so than mine, my figures didn't take into account the 14 million who make over $75,000 a year who just don't WANT insurance.

    2. You must be one of those people who see the words "general welfare" and think it means food stamps and the poor. That is NOT what it means.

    3. Again, healthcare is NOT a right, it's a privilage. You can argue this until you're blue in the face, it's never been a right.

    Yes, we do help low income and elderly. Elderly PAID into the system their whole lives and deserve to be taken care of in old age, not shoved down the hospice shoot.

    And the poor need a little help so we have programs for them to get help too. We're not heartless, but we don't want to help people who won't help themselves.

    And like I said, you want to come to me and say instead of 47 million people, we're only going to address the 9 or so that want and still can't afford health insurance and raise the maximum income level so they qualify. I'm ALL for it.

    However, when you figures includes: 1. people who are too lazy to fill out the paperwork, 2. people that can readily afford it anyway, and 3. illegal's who will contribute NOTHING to the system they are draining, I tend to take issue with that.

    If I'm standing there with $100 in my hand and I say to you "pay for my dinner because I don't feel like it" are you willing to do that? I bet not. But that is exactly what you're asking us to do. Pay for other people who don't want to take care of themselves.

    If you open the door (I'll use a simpler term since the flood gate thing is too difficult for you to understand) you give the government the right to set a price on something people need, they can then take the liberty to do it on other things people need.

    I can see it now the arguement is going to be "well, people needed healthcare and we set the price. People are hungry, we should set the price of food, and people are thristy, we should set the price of miilk" If you don't think a dictator is going to make that leap (and yeah, I AM calling Obama AND Pelosi AND the other inflate--a-heads in Washington want to be dictators) you're just a sad sad person.

    If this is not clear enough for you (even meeting you 1/2 way to use to YOUR figures) then there is nothing else I can say here because I'm starting to waste a lot of time on an idiot.
  • petemuldoon
    Perfect. Resort to calling me an idiot. Excellent argument.

    I'm not employed by ACORN, btw. I'm a professional blogger who is trying to get an idea of how the conservative mindset is working these days. It's kind of funny, really, to think that you believe that ACORN, or even your local Democratic county office would ever pay someone to try to change your mind. You are not important, you see, because you don't engage other people. You are not interested in debate, or actually entertaining the notion that you don't have it all figured out.

    Guess what? I've been doing this for 18 years, and I don't have it all figured out either. There are some really hard policy question that are going to have to be debated on the cost side of this (and they have nothing to do with making sure everyone is covered) because Americans pay nearly twice the per capita rate as other western countries. And that figure is climbing, even though countries like France, for example, also have high rates of illegal immigrants. (Illegal immigrants, by the way, was the number you were quoting that was wrong; not uninsured.)

    So this question is going to have to be resolved. And if you want to be a part of resolving it, and actually helping to make a America a better place, then you need to admit that you don't understand how it all works. It's ok to not know everything. But please make an effort.

    How do you pay for your health care? Do you have insurance? Is it through work?

    You can think general welfare is for foreign aid and roads. I can think it's for health care. Since there is nothing in the constitution either way, maybe we're both right.

    And as far as rights go, rights are what society decides they are. The founders didn't even include the bill of rights in the Constitution, because they wanted to leave that up to the citizens to determine. What's more, I have never claimed that there was a right to health care, just as I never claimed that was a right to clean water, roads or education.

    Did you know that price controls were last used in the '60's by LBJ? they didn't work, they are discredited by every economist, liberal or conservative, and are not coming back.

    Are you aware that Obama and Pelosi were elected in a democratic process? You lost. You lost using the process (democracy) that you want us to export around the world at the barrel of a gun. And the you don't accept the results.

    Your argument really is just that you don't think you should have to pay for the health care of people who can't pay for it themselves. If this is your position, that's fine. I cannot argue with that. But it has nothing to do with rights, or the price of milk, or how many illegals there are.
  • aliy
    You finally get it I don't want to pay for people who won't get off their asses and pay for themselves.

    And you might want to check Craigslist in your local area where here and else where Acorn is offering MONEY to people willing to go to town halls to support Obama before you spout off about how Acorn doesn't have to pay peope.

    Yet again proving that you are not here to debate, you're hear to spit at me the things Acorn is paying you to spit at people.
  • petemuldoon
    Do you really think ACORN can afford to pay people to argue with you? I don't know anything about ACORN, nor do i particularly care, but your paranoia and sense of importance is kind of funny.

    Anyway, I'm glad you finally just said what your problem with universal coverage is. It's legitimate to be ok with people dying because they are denied health care. I think it's heartless and wrong, but as i said before, i can't argue with your belief system. At least it's rational and coherent.

    By the way, you never told me where you get your health insurance from. And I am here to debate I would like to debate the value of the health care coverage that you have, so that we can get some insight into whether the current system is good for you or not.
  • susanwallace
    Petemuldoon-Aliy always starts out with any new poster pretending to engage in logical arguement. When her lies are revealed for exactly what they are she begins with the insults. Once you are gone she will go right back to presenting the same old MISINFORMATION- Lies such as claiming the House bill would provide coverage for illegal aliens which has been completely debunked.
    You are a paid agent for who? ACORN--Dora was called an idioit and I have no buisness here and I am also a stupid idiot. According to her being Canadian means I
    cannot possibly understand American politics. So don't feel special!!
    Aily is an equal opportunity INSULTER--it is all she has left.
  • 2bluestarmom
    Like I said, go back to the hole you crawled out of.

    We don't share the same views. You know that, we know that. So don't bother coming here spewing the green guacamole vomit from your radical activist mouth. You have tons of web sites that you would feel much more comfortable at, where you and your fellow parasites can all feed off each others propaganda and feel totally satisfied in one meal.

    You can't convince us, we can't enlighten you. Your hearts are dark, wicked and full of evil.

    Trolls. I can see you feeding off the carcass's of the unborn like crazed wild wolves in the wilderness. The blood dripping from your wicked, foul mouths.

    I hope from now until you meet the end of your days, you dream of every single precious little soul whose blood you have on your hands and that you have caused to be ripped out from a mothers womb! I hope you visually see every single one. There are millions. That ought to make you feel real good. But one day, you will regret the evil you have allowed to grow in your own, heartless womb of a mind!
  • susanwallace
    2bluestarmom
    Having never said anything to lead you to believe that I support abortion your post is not just offensive to me but it clearly is against the Christian
    commandment:
    Though shall not bear false witness against they neighbour.
    To say the awful things you do in your post appauls me. Spewing such hatefulness towards someone who has done nothing but try to engage in informed and logical discussion about Health Care reform demonstrates to all the readers on this site that you have lost touch with the Christian faith. I hope you will go and see your pastor or priest and ask for some help. I think your mental health is in serious jeporady .
  • 2bluestarmom
    Go take your Prozac and don't call us in the morning.
  • aliy
    And just incase you missed it the LAST TWO TIMES:

    Pg 22 of the HC Bill MANDATES the Government will audit the books of ALL EMPLOYERS that self insure!

    Pg 29 lines 4-16 in the HC Bill – YOUR HEALTH CARE IS RATIONED!!

    Pg 30 Sec 123 of HC Bill – THERE WILL BE A GOVERNMENT COMMITTEE that decides what treatments/benefits you get

    Pg 42 of HC Bill – The Health Choices Commissioner will choose your benefits for you. You have no choice!

    Pg 50 Section 152 in HC Bill – HC will be provided to ALL non-U.S. citizens, illegal or otherwise

    Pg 58 HC Bill – Government will have real-time access to individual’s finances and a National ID Health Care Card will be issued!

    Pg 59 HC Bill lines 21-24 Government will have direct access to your banks accounts for electronic funds transfer.

    (NOTE FROM RJ-This really does mean they can take your money at any time. Who will have this authority?—a government bureaucrat.)

    Pg 65 Sec 164 is a payoff subsidized plan for retirees and their families in unions and community organizations (ACORN).

    Pg 72 Lines 8-14 Government is creating a Health Care Exchange to bring private health care plans under government control.

    Pg 84 Sec 203 HC Bill – Government mandates ALL benefit packages for private health care plans in the Exchange

    Pg 85 Line 7 HC Bill – Specs for of Benefit Levels for Plans = The government will ration your health care!

    Pg 91 Lines 4-7 HC Bill – Government mandates linguistic appropriate services.

    Pg 95 HC Bill Lines 8-18 The government will use groups i.e., ACORN & AmeriCorps to sign up individuals for government Health Care Plan

    Pg 85 Line 7 HC Bill – Specs of Ben Levels 4 Plans. #AARP members – Your health care WILL be rationed

    Now go back to your own country and leave ours alone. How DARE you come here and demand I pay taxes to support illegals when you admit you wouldn't do it yourself. Why don't YOU come down here and insure a couple million illegals instead of demanding I do it.
  • aliy
    And PS, that's only the first 100 pages. I have another 900+ to go!
  • susanwallace
    Aliy-you quoted page 50 Section 152 in HC Bill – HC will be provided to ALL non-U.S. citizens, illegal or otherwise
    LIAR--post the asection if you do not I will after concluding you do not even know how to find this section.
    It has NOTHING to do with iilegal immigrants-it prevents discrimiantion for a variety of resona BUT states in the beginning othe section that nothing in that section can override any ecplicitly excluded in any other sectio of the Act--ie the sections stating that no iilegal immigrant can get subsidized coverage.
  • susanwallace
    Put or Shut Up
    Aiy Nothing you have posted has anythig to do with illegal aliens being covered . That claim is what I have challenged you to post.
    I repeat PUT UP OR SHUT UP
    PS. As for your other claims POST the sections you are citing so that we can all judge for ourselves what they say.. I suspect you can't because you got the info from some conservative blog not from your own research.
  • susanwallace
    Here is the section Aliy is claiming gives iilegal aliens acess to free coverage.(1) IN GENERAL.—In the case of health insur2
    ance coverage offered through the Health Insurance
    3 Exchange—
    4 (A) the requirements of this title do not
    5 supercede any requirements (including require6
    ments relating to genetic information non7
    discrimination and mental health) applicable
    8 under title XXVII of the Public Health Service
    9 Act or under State law, except insofar as such
    10 requirements prevent the application of a re11
    quirement of this division, as determined by the
    12 Commissioner; and
    13 (B) individual rights and remedies under
    14 State laws shall apply.
    15 (2) CONSTRUCTION.—In the case of coverage
    16 described in paragraph (1), nothing in such para17
    graph shall be construed as preventing the applica18
    tion of rights and remedies under State laws with
    19 respect to any requirement referred to in paragraph
    20 (1)(A).
    21 SEC. 152. PROHIBITING DISCRIMINATION IN HEALTH CARE.
    22 (a) IN GENERAL.—Except as otherwise explicitly per23
    mitted by this Act and by subsequent regulations con24
    sistent with this Act, all health care and related services
    25 (including insurance coverage and public health activities)
    VerDate Nov 24 2008 12:51 Jul 14, 2009 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00050 Fmt 6652 Sfmt 6201 C:\TEMP\AAHCA0~1.XML HOLCPC
    July 14, 2009 (12:51 p.m.)
    F:\P11\NHI\TRICOMM\AAHCA09_001.XML
    f:\VHLC\071409\071409.140.xml (444390|2)
    51
    1 covered by this Act shall be provided without regard to
    2 personal characteristics extraneous to the provision of
    3 high quality health care or related services.
    4 (b) IMPLEMENTATION.—To implement the require5
    ment set forth in subsection (a), the Secretary of Health
    6 and Human Services shall, not later than 18 months after
    7 the date of the enactment of this Act, promulgate such
    8 regulations as are necessary or appropriate to insure that
    9 all health care and related services (including insurance
    10 coverage and public health activities) covered by this Act
    11 are provided (whether directly or through contractual, li12
    censing, or other arrangements) without regard to per13
    sonal characteristics extraneous to the provision of high
    14 quality health care or related services
  • aliy
    Damn Straight Susan. You want to come on here and tell me stupid things like clean water isn't part of infrastructure and ambulatory services for illegals IS you're an idiot.

    You want to come on here and say YOU wouldn't be happy if YOUR country had you paying taxes to float a bunch of illegals but you're telling me I have too. You're an idiot.

    That IS in the bill it covers Citizens AND NON CITIZENS. What part of THAT is so hard for you to understand?! You're an idiot.

    Acorn has ads all OVER Craigslist offering $300 a day to anyone who will support the healthcare bill. They are VERY easy to look up. Try doing THAT you seem to have plenty of time up there in Canada to but your nose in this countries business. Funny how you can read a 1,000+ page bill but you can't find 1 of THOUSANDS of ads out there offering pay to anyone who will support this crap bill.
  • AckAck
    Aliy, I hope you're just having fun with this hair-brain person. I think you are and I think you are just playing along for the laugh. Just to see what strange and stupid words comes out of this, this, this, what-ever it is, person's mouth. Keep up the good work, the real IDIOTS don't know the difference. Ha, ha!
  • aliy
    The worst part Ack is that I HAVE cited many times the parts of this bill, the pages of this bill, the exact liine of HR3200 (and there have been times I've backed it up with other bills they are trying to force through too) She's just an America hating Canandian.
  • susanwallace
    LIAR-you have never posted any section of HR 3200 NEVER NEVER
  • aliy
    And Again Susan:

    Pg 22 of the HC Bill MANDATES the Government will audit the books of ALL EMPLOYERS that self insure!

    Pg 29 lines 4-16 in the HC Bill – YOUR HEALTH CARE IS RATIONED!!

    Pg 30 Sec 123 of HC Bill – THERE WILL BE A GOVERNMENT COMMITTEE that decides what treatments/benefits you get

    Pg 42 of HC Bill – The Health Choices Commissioner will choose your benefits for you. You have no choice!

    Pg 50 Section 152 in HC Bill – HC will be provided to ALL non-U.S. citizens, illegal or otherwise

    Pg 58 HC Bill – Government will have real-time access to individual’s finances and a National ID Health Care Card will be issued!

    Pg 59 HC Bill lines 21-24 Government will have direct access to your banks accounts for electronic funds transfer.

    (NOTE FROM RJ-This really does mean they can take your money at any time. Who will have this authority?—a government bureaucrat.)

    Pg 65 Sec 164 is a payoff subsidized plan for retirees and their families in unions and community organizations (ACORN).

    Pg 72 Lines 8-14 Government is creating a Health Care Exchange to bring private health care plans under government control.

    Pg 84 Sec 203 HC Bill – Government mandates ALL benefit packages for private health care plans in the Exchange

    Pg 85 Line 7 HC Bill – Specs for of Benefit Levels for Plans = The government will ration your health care!

    Pg 91 Lines 4-7 HC Bill – Government mandates linguistic appropriate services.

    Pg 95 HC Bill Lines 8-18 The government will use groups i.e., ACORN & AmeriCorps to sign up individuals for government Health Care Plan

    Pg 85 Line 7 HC Bill – Specs of Ben Levels 4 Plans. #AARP members – Your health care WILL be rationed

    YOU still want to say I never read any of it? You're making yourself look like an ass now.
  • 2bluestarmom
    You susanwallace, are mentally disturbed and need to get therapy. However, I would tread lightly as Nero-bama and your fellow comrades will discard you like a piece of trash. You know, like you guys do to the unborn.
  • susanwallace
    Aliy, PUT UP OR SHUT UP

    POST the section of the bill you claim covers illegals --just be sure you have the correct bill this time.
    .
    If you don't do this we will all know you are lying.

    I am repeatedly going to ask you to do this until you do.
    PUT UP OR SHUT UP
  • 2bluestarmom
    Let's turn that around susanwallace. You Shut Up! We know you Put Out, but we don't like what you Put Out. Therefore, go back to moveon.org or whatever hole you crawled out from. We are not interested. We have a country to save....by the way, airlines are offering some nice discounts. The Mayor of New York is flying folks who basically are draining the economy, out of there. Perhaps you can go back to your homeland? To RUSSSIA with love, er excuse me, hate!
  • aliy
    OMG, The mayor of NY is sending them all to Orlando Florida telling the press "they can get jobs there" we had over 100 homless families get off planes here in the last month!!! It's NUTS.PLEASE don't send that wacko here too
  • aliy
    Susan, I've put up MANY times now the exact page in the bill that says everything I take issue with. Go back and find it. I'm not going to entertain your stupidity on here. You're a Canandian, why are you so concerned with ME having to pay more in taxes. Do you hate America so much that you want to see our system collapse?! You must. As someone who hates my country, I ask you leave now and don't bother coming back. We have no time for you.
  • susanwallace
    Liar, liar -Pants on Fire
    Aily you have never posted the sections from HR 2300 that cover illegal aliens. What you did post was a section from a completely different bill in order to mis-lead people.
    For you information
    .the house bill specifically excludes from coverage. Of course, this means that they will be continue to get their healthcare from expensive emergency rooms, so that may not actually be a good thing.

    The section on page 50 of HR 3200 aligns Health Insurance Exchange policies with other laws currently in effect, such as the Public Health Service Act, State law, and ERISA. Health care cannot trump other laws already in effect.

    " According to America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009, Page 143, Line 3, Section 246: "No Federal Payment for Undocumented Aliens. Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States." (see the second source)

    Both the House and Senate versions of President Obama’s health care reform plans contain passages explicitly excluding illegal immigrants from receiving federal money to purchase health insurance from either a private or government-run health plan
    I expect your big problem is that when you the read the correct bill you are unable to understand it.
    As it stands now anyone in the US can buy Health Insurance from private insurers. Nobody. Few do as they do not have the money to do so. The Us has laws to prevent illegal immigrants from aplying for government subsidized coverage such as Medicaid and Medicare. What ER 3200 says is that that the same provisons contained in the act covering Medicaid and Medicare will apply to HR 3200 as well.
    It also specifically prevent people who income in the US but are not legal resident form using tax credits provided for in the act to reduce their taxes.
    Aily I challenge you again to post any section of the Bill that will allow illegal immigrants to make use of government subsidies to
    purchase Health Care Coverage
    I know you can't and that is why you have
    nothing left to say except to tell me to go away.
    Put up or Shut Up.
    .
  • aliy
    Holy CRAP Susan, I HAVE to do this AGAIN here it is:

    Pg 22 of the HC Bill MANDATES the Government will audit the books of ALL EMPLOYERS that self insure!

    Pg 29 lines 4-16 in the HC Bill – YOUR HEALTH CARE IS RATIONED!!

    Pg 30 Sec 123 of HC Bill – THERE WILL BE A GOVERNMENT COMMITTEE that decides what treatments/benefits you get

    Pg 42 of HC Bill – The Health Choices Commissioner will choose your benefits for you. You have no choice!

    Pg 50 Section 152 in HC Bill – HC will be provided to ALL non-U.S. citizens, illegal or otherwise

    Pg 58 HC Bill – Government will have real-time access to individual’s finances and a National ID Health Care Card will be issued!

    Pg 59 HC Bill lines 21-24 Government will have direct access to your banks accounts for electronic funds transfer.

    (NOTE FROM RJ-This really does mean they can take your money at any time. Who will have this authority?—a government bureaucrat.)

    Pg 65 Sec 164 is a payoff subsidized plan for retirees and their families in unions and community organizations (ACORN).

    Pg 72 Lines 8-14 Government is creating a Health Care Exchange to bring private health care plans under government control.

    Pg 84 Sec 203 HC Bill – Government mandates ALL benefit packages for private health care plans in the Exchange

    Pg 85 Line 7 HC Bill – Specs for of Benefit Levels for Plans = The government will ration your health care!

    Pg 91 Lines 4-7 HC Bill – Government mandates linguistic appropriate services.

    Pg 95 HC Bill Lines 8-18 The government will use groups i.e., ACORN & AmeriCorps to sign up individuals for government Health Care Plan

    Pg 85 Line 7 HC Bill – Specs of Ben Levels 4 Plans. #AARP members – Your health care WILL be rationed


    I just put up now you get the heck out of my countries business. Thank you.
  • petemuldoon
    I kind of look at it as a psychology experiment. Really, I'm curious to know if her mind actually works like this, or if it's just an act.

    The thing is, there are something like 25% of Americans who do think like this. And this is why America, really, is a second-rate country today.
  • aliy
    25% of Americans think what? That being a lazy ass is WRONG?! That you should working hard for your OWN money? That governement has no right to take what's MINE for someone elses use when they are just too lazy to provide for themselves?

    If ONLY 25% of American's think that way we're WAY more screwed that I ever thought!

    And I've already told you, I'm DONE with you. You make stupid arguments, you're not trying to engage in conversation, you're an idiot who is taking orders from Acorn at $300 a day. And I'm DONE wasting time with you.
  • petemuldoon
    You won't answer my question because you have government subsidized health care, and I don't. I buy mine on the individual market. Which means I pay for your health care. Who's lazy now?
  • aliy
    Ok, I have Humana. They SUCK. I hate them, I am NOT on the government healthcare, but let me tell you how on the ball these idiots are:

    I got a letter two days ago from DCF saying they were cutting off my food stamps unless I signed a form giving them direct access to my checking account.

    I have NEVER gotten food stamps. They are threatening to cut me off from a program I've NEVER been ON. Yeah, I trust THEM with my medical records!

    Happy Pet, you dolt.
  • 2bluestarmom
    Aliy, seriously hon, why do any of you waste your breath or time on these people? They are zombies. They don't and never will get it. They are doing what they have been educated and trained to do, distract and attack.

    Let's put our head together as one, get our country back and let those haters of God, Truth, Love, Peace, continue to be the dead bones they are.

    Ignore them. Why are you here? I am not here to debate. I am here to find ways to save our country. They are here to harrass and distract. It's the socialistic mind set. It's what they are all commissioned to do.

    What would Jesus do or say? These people do not have the spirit of The Lord in them. They are dead bones. They are a hateful and rebellious generation.

    And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. "thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men."
  • aliy
    You are correct 2Blue. I made it really clear in the last post that I'm not fighting with someone who just doesn't understand the words that are clearly written in front of him trying to put meanings in my mouth that we all know are not true. I give everyone a chance, once they prove to me they are not listening but spitting back what Acorn is paying them to spit at me, I'm done.
  • petemuldoon
    You certainly are not here to debate. You might learn something.

    With all due respect, I can't believe that you think Jesus would want us to ignore those who are can't afford medical care. This certainly is not what the Catholic Church says.

    I challenge you to read this:
    http://www.sojo.net/action/alerts/health_care_t...

    It's from an evangelical religious group. In return, I promise to read anything you would care to direct me to. I am committed to understanding both sides of the debate.

    Please know that I am not a zombie. I am a veteran, and someone who has devoted his life to understanding the issues, and have been willing to change my mind when I am wrong. And I have been wrong before.

    Thank you.
  • 2bluestarmom
    What we have here is, "a failure to communicate"

    Misinformation. Who on God's green planet ever said that conservatives don't want everyone to have health care? And that's just health care we are talking about on this blog. It doesn't include all of the other categorically incorrect misconceptions you are fed.

    Where do you get that info from? Liberal blogs? Main stream media?

    I have seen from first hand experience the abuses of health care in this country. Illegals in this country have broken the law to be here. They do not qualify for health care and why should they when tax payers who are from low income to middle class can't afford it?

    If the government would stop this ridiculous "flushing down the toilet" our tax paying dollars to folks who have broke our laws by being here, we would save billions, which in return could be put into a program to help those of us who do not or cannot afford health care.

    But then hey, they want the illegals votes.

    As stated in my previous blog, if it's an emergency, a true emergency, life or death, of course they should receive help. Then sent back to their country.

    One of the main reasons California is and has been for decades, going under, illegals.
  • 2bluestarmom
    I can give many examples of what I have observed in my life time as true and fact. By the way, that's just one aspect of the health care that is abused. There are many facets to this dilemma. We need reform. The platform that is currently on the table is not right for this country.

    They need to clean up the criminal aspects first. Abuse in medicare, medicaid, insurance companies etc.

    What they are proposing now, is absurd!

    Approx. 27 years ago, I went to the welfare in Oceanside, California for assistance.

    When I got there, I was the minority. There were 98% folks of color there and most of them were hispanic and most of them were illegal.

    When i got to the window, there was a hispanic woman with her interpreter at the next cubicle.

    Both of us needed assistance.

    I was told that I could not receive help until I brought in "proof" of things I did not have! Income, assets, a husband to provide for me etc. Most of my paperwork of things they wanted were in another state and it would take months for me to get them.

    The illegal next to me was asked for similar items. Her interpreter told the social worker, "all my papers were lost in a fire in Mexico"

    I was refused, she was give everything to sustain her for the next year, right on the spot, immediately!

    I was sent home with nothing to help me and my children. And I have worked all my life, paid taxes, but when I need help, short term help until I could find a job, BECAUSE OF MY COLOR, I was sent away, with nothing.

    Now some idiot will come on here and say, "You're a racist!" Kiss my ass!

    I am stating FACTS!

    I have seen that scenario played out so many times in my life time and heard the same story from hundreds of Americans. How do you think they feel?

    Let me give you a big revelation.......This has been going on for decades. Many hispanics that I have been acquainted with in my life time have told me, the illegals know how to work the system. They go back to Mexico or wherever, tell their friends and family what to do, what to say and how to go about getting "FREE" everything in the U.S.

    Most of these folks don't have to prove anything because of the bs that politicians have been feeding them for decades have said. Whites are an elite group. BS! We are the minority and we get the scraps off the table in this country!

    No one on this planet can tell me any different. Been there, done that! I've seen with my eyes and heard with my ears.

    I grew up in California. I have seen it deteriorate as well as living in Texas many years and the same thing.
  • AckAck
    Guess what ya'll? You ALL are mentioning illegals in the wrong catagory here. When you mention someone illegal, you are mentioning someone who has committed a crime. Someone who IS NOT LEGAL here in this country. Why would you even be talking about whether they are entitled to something or not? What we should be talking about when mentioning illegals is deporting their asses back to Mexico or where ever they came from! Cleaning them out of our society and we wouldn't be having this conversation.
  • aliy
    Good point Ack! ILLEGAL as in broke the law!!! Like that. Stealing that.
  • petemuldoon
    Stealing is also illegal.

    I suppose we should deny you health care too.

    What does illegality have to do with health care? If you go 56 in a 55, you break the law too. Does this mean you should be ineligible for Medicare, Medicaid, and kicked off your employer plan?

    Because these are all government subsidized health care plans. Some 70% of the country uses them. And you wouldn't want someone getting your tax dollars if they've ever done something wrong.
  • aliy
    pet, go away you're making NO sense. You're taking gibberish and you're not helping your cause any. You sound like an idiot. If Acorn is paying you to post here, they are wasting a LOT of money on you.

    "stealing is also illegal" you just totally made OUR argument for us. You can NOT steal from me for someone elses use. THAT is our gripe!!!

    You are SO not good at this debate thing it's almost scary. Find Dora, at least SHE would make a little sense. Still might be crack pot ideas but she would put them together in a way that didn't help ME!
  • petemuldoon
    Excellent comment, Mark. A trillion dollars seems like big money, until you realize that our GDP our that same time period will be somewhere between $100-130 trillion.

    I will say that, for the most part, illegal immigrants are a revenue-neutral from a tax standpoint. Most of them pay payroll taxes, and are ineligible for refunds. They pay sales, gas, and cigarette taxes, and many of them pay cash at hospitals. But forcing those who can't pay into the most inefficient method of getting care (ER's), is just dumb.
  • aliy
    Petemuldoon, Are you a flat tax supporter? You can't really be serious about your argument that illegals DO pay taxes seriously? You think they are intitled to millions of dollars of healthcare because they pay and extra $1 for a pack of cigarettes like the rest of us?! That is a very, very weak argument, when the president himself said they are a drain on the system (which is why he wants to insure them) you are really going to make the argument that they ARE tax payers?

    They don't pay payroll taxes if they are paid under the table too.
  • petemuldoon
    Aliy,
    I am not a flat tax supporter, although this has nothing to do with this argument.

    Nice work ignoring sales tax, gas taxes, and the rest, btw.

    I worked for a long time in the restaurant industry, which is full of illegals. Their income tax is withheld from their paychecks, just like mine and, presumably, yours, but when it comes time for a refund, they don't get one, since they don't file taxes.

    Yes, some of them work under the table. But the effect tends to balance out. And there are plenty of citizens who do the same. This argument is a red herring.

    They are a drain on the system because we treat them anyway, but do it in the most inefficient way possible.

    Now, if you want to argue that we should not give illegal aliens health care, even in life and death situations, then, well, I can't argue with you. I can only say that you seem not to value human life at all.

    But illegal aliens are a distraction. They are not a reason to oppose universal coverage. They are a way for people like you to steer the debate into emotionally charged directions, and to keep people from actually thinking about the problem.

    And our health care system is a problem.
  • aliy
    You want to say I don't value human life, you can. I don't value putting MY already thin resources into some thing they refuse to contribute too. I think asking them to contribute is more than fair. You're going to come here and expect hand outs for nothing. I think that's wrong.

    This is not a matter of valuing human life, it's a matter of NOT creating a tyranny of the non-contributor. Where people think it's there God given right to have 1/2 the fruits of MY labor for nothing.

    And if they really were illgeal than your old boss was either keeping the money or not actually taking out the taxes because if he told the IRS he was paying illegals there would be a massive fine in it for him.
  • aliy
    There are problems with our system of healthcare, no one's saying there are not. But would you agree that instead of a sweeping overhaul we could fix one issue at a time, like say medicare fraud. Get THAT under control.

    Or how about the fact that there is ALREADY a law that says you can't exclude for pre-existing conditions (the people carry the coverage for 12 months they are covered, if they had insurance before you can't exclude it!--ALREADY A LAW)

    Or the fact that the children in the country were already covered by a provision in the FIRST stimulus Obama signed. All parents have to do is go sign up for it and their children are ALREADY covered.

    Work on issues, not total government control.

    One of the issues the liberals love to push is "if you loose your job you loose insurance" did you know according to this bill, if you loose your job you HAVE to go on the public system?! That is not "if you like your doctor you can keep him" That's a systematic way to get everyone to inadvertently fall into the public conglomerate eventually.

    How about this liberal battle cry: "47 million uninsured" well, exclude the 30 million illegals ( and don't get me wrong, they want to start paying taxes, get SS cards and contribute, learn the language and assimilate into our society, GOD BLESS EM), but for now, the ones that don't want to really be part of our country, cut them out. That leaves 17 million. There are about 10 million people who qualify for medicaid but are too frigin lazy to get off their asses and fill out the 50 pages of paperwork to get approved. That leaves 7 million. You want me to agree to raise the maximum income level to include those 7 million in medicaid, I am SURE you would get conservatives to agree to THAT. We're not heartless, we're practical.

    You can't insure triple the people for a quarter of the price. That's just illogical and untrue.
  • aliy
    Medicare cost 9 times what they thought it would. The CBO is saying Obama's plan is going to be devistating to the economy (TRILLIONS In DEBT) what if THAT is 9 times mroe expenisve than the CBO is estimating now!?

    These are all things people are not thinking about. Bleeding hearts who only think about floating the non-contributor to look nice to the world.

    How about this, each of you liberals take in 1 poor family, add them to your insurance, give them beds, and cloths and feed them. If each one of you did that, we could make a dent in this epidemic. Until you're ready to put your own money (not my money) where your mouth is I don't want to hear it.

    I'm sick of everyone telling ME I should buckle over and just accept the fact that I have to pay for people who are too lazy to get off their asses and work.

    You can make me look like a hard ass but I think you need responsibility to respect the reward. Rewards without responsibility breeds spoiled rotten non-contributing lazy asses.
  • petemuldoon
    "It is our duty as Americans to make sure that they do not pass this bill."


    What bill could they be talking about, that is so bad that it is our duty, as red-blooded, freedom loving, patriotic Americans to defeat? A bill to abolish the United States? A bill that violates constitutional guarantees and our sovereign treaty obligations by allowing CIA torture? A bill that requires the original copy of the constitution to be graffitied over with a hammer and sickle and sent to North Korea to be used as toilet paper by this Kim Il Jong II? No?

    As it turns out, it's far worse. It's a bill that would extend the government's commitment to helping people gain access to health care.

    "Churchill once said that whoever does not learn from history is destined to repeat it..."

    Not to go off on a tangent, but does that mean that if some schoolchild, somewhere in the world, doesn't do her history homework, we're all going to have to relive the Bush years? It hardly seems fair.

    "Throughout history, it has been made clear that printing massive amounts of money to throw at all your problems temporarily solves problems, but in the end causes runaway inflation."

    Of course, had we learned Reagan's history of runaway deficits we wouldn't have been doomed to repeat them with 8 years of Bush deficits, followed by the greatest economic collapse in 70 years. That's the point here, right? No? Maybe the point is that we did learn our lesson and elect Clinton, a progressive who eliminated the deficit? Not that either? Huh.


    "But the money being spent is not the most troubling aspect of this new bill."

    Oh. Never mind then.

    "Everything about this new health care system would be regulated by the government. "

    Holy Shit! This sounds like...MEDICARE! Medicare is completely regulated by the government, which makes it evil!

    "Government would also cut funding for Medicare..."

    Great...so it cuts funding for an evil program...we should vote for this bill then, right? No? Now I'm really confused.


    "...and mandate “end life” counseling. "


    Now I'm going to ignore the lies in this phrase (there is no mandate; it's an option... and it's not "end life", it's a living will option so you can control your own destiny and not leave it up to other people) and focus on the word "counseling". Because as we all know, counseling is for pansies. No patriotic American would want that. That's something the French would do.


    "This health care system would depend on a rationing mechanism, and this rationing would begin with the elderly."

    Now I'm confused again. Am I reading the right bill? I am? Oh, you're just lying. Got it. Also, I seem to have read somewhere that all free-market systems depend on rationing mechanisms. These mechanisms are called prices. In fact, prices are what we currently use to ration health care. In the current system. The system that you are defending. In your blog about hip, urban, conservatives. But it sure doesn't begin with the elderly. You see, they have Medicare.

    "No one should have the right to take away your right to life, even if you don’t have much longer to live. "


    Fair enough. Stop talking about it then. No one else is. It makes it sound like you're obsessed with killing Grandma.
  • benrush
    Why I no longer trust the government... and why you shouldn't either

    August 6, 2009 was the second darkest day in American history. Barack Obama ordered union thugs to "confront" those opposed to his plans at Congressional townhall meetings. Violence broke out near St Louis, Missouri and Tampa, Florida. For several weeks the state run media bemoaned the so-called unruly mobs at these events. Yet, no crimes were committed until after and coincident with Obama's desires. Obama has declared war on the American public. Or rather, anyone he thinks disagrees with him. This is an ominous and terrifying first.

    Prevoiusly, Obama ordered his gang to monitor and report any contrary points of view in Blogs, E-Mails and even "casual conversations". They set up a website to collect and a database to organize and analyze this data. Earlier this year, a leaked Department of Homeland Security memo concluded that all who opposed Obama were racists and domestic terrorists. DHS agents then went to "tea parties" this summer to photograph and videotape the participants. Ironic, when last year the Obama campaign railed against "domestic spying" by President Bush.

    In a little over six months, America has gone from freedom to a police state. The Chicago way. Bear in mind, Obama whines about dissent and the very next day his criminal cronies attack innocent citizens. This is not America anymore. Whatever delusions you have about and "land of the free " and "the home of the brave" are over. Get used to it, if you can. If you go to protest his plans, you will be photographed, identified, catalogued, investigated and, now, beaten by his goons. Don't be shocked. This is what last year's election was really about: liberty or coercion. The coercion crowd won.

    Their "america" has nothing to do with The U S Constitution, The Declaration of Independence or the last 230 years of our history. Of course, the erosion started in the 1930's with the New Deal. It gained speed in the 1960's with the Great Society. Last year, Obama scraped together a coalition of “victims” for whom this country "just doesn't work." The erosions assisted those folks into disfunctionality. The "wont’s" were thus created. If the "wont’s" would just embrace the system like the rest of us, they’d be fine. But they won’t. They just want a free ride. The "cant’s" can’t and that’s what the social safety net was designed for. The system works perfectly well for those who honestly try. Nevertheless, because the "wont’s" don't like what worked for the rest of us all the way back, we should scrap it. So, Obama wants to tear it all down and start over. This is the "change" they voted for.

    But this is no surprise. What would you expect from someone who goes to church and sings, " God D___, America" ? He is simply doing what the song says and what he believes with all his heart. A few of us knew this from the beginning. Many still think, "It can't happen here" ! It has and it's only starting. The "St. Louis smackdown" is just a taste of things to come. But, it's also the punch seen around the world. Make no mistake: this is no longer America. This is an abomination.

    For record, the thugs who assaulted Kenneth Gladney committed felonies. They were on orders and acted as agents for Barack Obama. That makes him Felon-in-Chief. Now we know the real function of labor unions. To supply muscle for Obama's army of criminals. Last year's wonderful promises are this year's depicable lies. Isn't that how it always goes ? Its very hard to square Obama's "soaring rhetoric" with his roving gangs of goons. He promises the world, but gives us an ambulance ride.

    Those "unruly mobs" have legitimate concerns. Obama's schemes (Finance reform, Cap and Trade and Heath Care reform, to mention a few) have one thing in common. They pay for his votes last fall with our money. Very clever. Very dangerous. Many of his supporters were promised free houses, free medical care and now "affordability" credits. Because we voted against him, they are reaching into our pockets to pay for these. That is not the legitimate function of government. Webster calls it theft. You can call it what you like. You can dress it up with inspiring language and high-minded rationalizations. It is still taking from others what does not belong to you. We are being mugged. It is no different than walking down the street, getting beaten then having you wallet taken. They're just putting it into bill Obama will sign. They've already delivered the beating, haven't they ? The theft is coming.

    Instead of debate they attack us physically. Obama lost his case and force is his next-to-the last tactic. Trust me, or else !, what a message ! That would have been an accurate campaign slogan. That's who they are. You see, they won last year. That means you and I aren't part of the process anymore. Didn't you know ? When we try to engage, we are assaulted for our efforts. That's what they do: coercion. Just like all the other cheap, low life punks in history.

    Anyone who resorts to violence in response to legal, constitutionally-protected activity is not fit for office in this country. Of course, Obama would be right at home in the former Soviet Union, North Korea and Communist China. This is how they get things done in those places. But not here, until now. He has forfeited his moral authority and legitimacy. He should resign. Any honorable man would resign. Obama is not an honorable man. His actions betray his words. Obama's lying, evasiveness, criminality and Marxist philosophies put him on par with Mafia dons and tyrants. When your best argument is, "because I said so", you are not a leader. You are a dictator. Obama, this is not Iran. You obviously no longer have the consent of the governed. You and your followers are arch enemies of freedom and what's left of this country. Most of the public no longer believes or trusts you.

    Obama, you're a great Marxist dictator, but not an American. Those are mutually exclusive. You see, it's more than just where you're born. It's what you believe and how you live and operate. It's not the puffery on your teleprompter. Notice how many trillions of dollars worth of formally private property now belong to the government. Obama's health care fraud, ah, reform will take away another 1/8 or our economy. The government can’t create wealth, only the private sector can, period. The government takes from some and gives that to others. The net effect is zero. When someone invests capital, jobs are created and goods and services are produced and sold. This is the only way the economy grows. You either have money that grows or it just gets transferred from out of one pocket to into another. Don't be mislead: socialism is like all his "inspiring" promises. It is theoretical. It is sugar-coated lies with a pretty face. Marxism is a an ugly, incomprensible brutal reality. It is the most oppressive and lethal system known to man. Tyrants lure people with the "promises" of socialism, but always resort to the Marxist strangelehold. Its called bait and switch. Obama, your mask is gone and decent, freedom-loving, law- abiding people are horrified.

    When Obama's assassins attacked Mr. Gladney, they attacked all of us. He said unequivocally: if you disagree with me, I will not act lawfully toward you. I will beat you, perhaps kill you. That's the Chicago way. It's is not American. It is an abomination. How many more people have to flood emergency rooms and maybe cemeteries before all of us understand the full extent of this evil ? Any of us could be next. Will it be me ? Will it be you ? Someone you know ? Someone you love ? Why should we tolerate the brutality or burials any longer ? Obama's opponents have acted legally. He and his followers have not. Obama's plans are bad for us and we're not stupid. That's why they have to use force. To ram it down our throats. When they can’t convince, they coerce. Besides, you never have to force people to do what's best for them. Do you ? Why would you even consider it ? There is something very wrong with you, Obama, and all of your followers ! You want to steal us blind using force. You have violated a sacred trust and must be held to account.

    Know one thing: this has all been planned. The bank and corporate takeovers, the taxes, the surveillance and the violence are Obama's means to enslave us. America had a long history of bitter political disagreements. The people in power now are cunning, ruthless ideologues who will stop at nothing to destroy us. Repeat: destroy us. They are lead by a cold, arrogant, narcissistic megalomaniac who thoroughly hates anything American. They are all equally guilty. They all deserve the fate of most tyrants.

    Here's the bottom line: even if Obama, 218 House members and 51 Senate members are the only ones who want this bill, it will pass. That’s the only math that counts. The townhalls and all the other bluster are just side shows. Obama is going through the motions of persuasion, but brutality is his ready back-up. Expect less of the former and more of the latter, especially after the vote. Regardless, Obama holds the Ace and doesn't care what anyone else thinks. In the end, that's all that matters to him. Hey, Obama, you only fool yourself.

    We began with second darkest day in our history. You may ask, what was the worst ? The winter of 1776. Shortly after we Declared Independence, the British invaded Long Island with an army much larger than ours. They quickly battled us off the Island, out of New York City and through New Jersey. Then they pushed General Washington and a very small number of remaining troops across the Delaware River into Philadelphia. They were blindsided, too. These poor souls had been beaten down, reduced and were completely demoralized. Most wanted to give up. There were no supplies and no reinforcements. Only a river stood between them and a vast force which could have easily finished them off. The American Revolution hung by a mere thread. Grim, indeed. This was December 24, 1776. Freedom had one last chance...

    Sadly, it may already be too late for you and I. Obama controls vast resources and has vast power. They put a stranglehold on us very quickly. They showed their true color. There isn't anything they won't do to hold onto all that power. Laws, decency and humanity mean nothing to them: only getting Power. Here's the dirty secret: they hate America and all those who love her, viscerally. That's why what they do never makes sense in terms of our values. They don't think like, believe in or even see reality like we do. We don't have all that demonic depravity hard-wired into us. They live in a dream world: the worker's paradise. Obama's Marxist utopia is our worst nightmare. Marxism enslaved billions and cost hundreds of millions of lives in the last century and continues to enslave and kill even now. They also have to use coercion. Alot.

    Marxism is when the goverment owns everything. Freedom comes from private property ownership. This prosperity makes you independent. The less all of us own privately, the less free we are as a nation. When the government owns everything you are dependent and not free. Obama's budget states he will return the property in this country to "its rightful owner". When Obama is done, you will have nothing. Repeat: nothing ! "Free" will cost us everything. In his follower's minds, this is payback for what "america" has done to them. That's what they're "hoping" for. While we float in the pot, they are slowly turning up the heat. This is not America. This is an abomination. Much darker days are ahead. I 'm jumping out. You should jump out, too. Before you're served for dinner !



    Signed,

    Spirit of 2009
  • markinboston
    Spirit of 2009 - wow. I'm impressed. Wordy and amazingly deluded. If you think Obama is a Marxist, maybe you don' t know what a Marxist is. I would love for you to post a definition, and then define exactly what Obama has done to meet that definition. BTW, I dispise Marxists, Marxist-Leninists, Maoists, etc. They are a bunch of freedom hating thugs, IMO.

    I completely agree that " Anyone who resorts to violence in response to legal, constitutionally-protected activity is not fit for office in this country." So, I guess the union goons won't run for Senate, unless they get a talk show that takes off... If you think Obama had ANYTHING to do random town hall controntation you are REALLY nuts IMO.

    I agree with you that government is not trustworthy. I came to that conclusion in 1963. Most recently, I felt absolutely betrayed when Scooter Libby was pardoned by George W Bush for outing a CIA agent (Valerie Plame) in a time of war. He should have been SHOT, not pardoned.

    However, for some routine things they do well, especially when they are held to public scrutiny. I absolutley support Medicare and Social Security. If you don't want to support those great institutions, feel free to not accept either when you are eligible.

    BTW, your last comments is intriguing - are you afraid of cannibalism? Just wondering.
  • petemuldoon
    Hey Benrush,
    I know you put a lot of effort into that post, what with having to write down all the things that Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck told you to think.

    But did you know that making things up just isn't the American way?

    Did you know that the only thing worse than ignorance is not realizing that you are ignorant? No? I didn't think you did.

    Have you ever had an original thought in your life? Has it ever occurred to you that there is some possibility, however remote and microscopic, that you don't actually know everything?

    Did you know that talking about "our values", in a country as widely diverse as America, makes absolutely no frickin sense whatsoever? Have you ever considered the possibility that there are other people who do not hold your moral views?

    Please, tell where you're jumping out to. I was going to leave because of people like you. I'd stay if I knew you were gone. But I don't want to go where you're going. I don't like the heat.
  • Sarah Chandler
    I agree wholeheartedly. Any bill that gives the government more power is not good for America. Of course, the healthcare plan may well be "effective" in the short run, but, like the stimulus, it will catch up to us. No one, least of all the government, should be able to dictate whether me or my Grandma or anyone else is worth keeping around. The healthcare plan would basically be discriminating against the elderly, as we already do against the unborn. We must stop this madness. It's an outrage. I love my Grandma!!!
  • JackieM
    Sarah, I agree with everything you said but the part about this plan being effective in the short run. since we don't have the medical personnel needed on day one of a bill passing, healthcare will be rationed from the beginning! By bagdad bob's/obama's own admission, there is already a shortage of doctors and nurses so this plan would fail from the beginning. i am so glad a lot of folks are finally waking up and seeing the democrats for what they really are, which are liars! i blame the stupid for voting this moron into office in the first place when it was clear to most of us that he would lead this country down a path of high unemployment, higher taxes and huge deficits. by the way, welcome!
  • aliy
    I know Jackie, I'm with you on that one. I don't know if it was the "stupid" so much as the "lazy" who all thought they were getting a free car, house and pay check out of electing this guy. He promised pie in the sky and he hasn't delivered fast enough for these loosers to get out of bed and off the couch to go stand up for him.

    What did he get fom his grassroots outcry on craigslist (looking to pay people to go support the healthcare bill at townhalls) a bunch of union thugs that's what.

    And where one nutty conservative goes out and shoots an abortion doctor and the whole party is condemed, I am taking the SEIU beating of that poor man as the whole liberal party are a bunch of thugs. They HATE when we take pages from their playbook and use it!
  • JackieM
    Aliy, obama and his administration definitely have the mob mentality and corruption is their game. unfortunately, the puppets/supporters are still buying into everything this idiot is selling even though his policies are failing.
  • Damn The Left
    Does it bother anyone that Congress, The President and all their workers / families are exempt from this coverage?
  • AckAck
    HELL YES! It bothers me frantically! I have been bitching about that ever since this goon got in the white house. They have been confronted on this and no one will give an answer.
  • aliy
    yes, and Obama's agrument is he has a team of doctors following him around. Well, so did Michael Jackson. Any of these people have an emergency they are going to have real problems if this thing passes. The law of unintended consequences. They are going to destroy hospitals and when they need one, no matter what great insurance plan they are on, they are going to be left waiting on an ambulance for hours, waiting in an ER because a hang nail got in ahead of them.... They just don't think this through.
  • AckAck
    Excellent post. My daughter is an RN and she chose Home Health Care because that was the industry she worked in while having only an LPN status and attending college. The company she worked for offered her a hell of a deal as a case worker, as soon as she finished college, and she took it. Now, how long that will last, I don't know. Here's the deal, this particular company deals with a lot of private insured patients. So, I suppose her job is secured for now. But what about if this idiot Obama gets this thing passed and they do away with the private insurers and all of the federally funded stuff goes away for the elderely... Hummm. It will!
  • Damn The Left
    I work full time as a paramedic with a private ambulance that services an area larger than some states. The government payers that we already receive, like Medicare and Medicaid, only reimburse us pennies on the dollar. Medicaid only pays 14 cents on the dollar while Medicare is somewhere around 30 cents. On top of that, payments are usually delayed if ever sent. The only thing keeping us in business is private insurance.

    Hospitals and doctors offices have the option to deny such payers while emergency rooms and ambulance services do not. The federal and state government takes advantage of that and we are left to accept whatever scraps they throw our way. If we went to a single public-funded payer, our service as well as the majority of private-based medical operations would be sure to collapse. There is just no way to sustain a business with that type of income. Do you think they pay 14 percent for gas?

    Of course this means that the government would have to pick up the slack and start providing the care themselves. Hence the term frequently used "socialized medicine".

    Don't believe me? Do the research and look up reimbursement for state and federal funded programs like Medicare, Prisoner care and Veterans assistance.
  • aliy
    Damn, you make a VERY good agrument none of us have the first hand knowledge to argue for you! Thank you for your insight.
  • Sarah Chandler
    Are you kidding? This is crap! I mean, he doesn't even support his own healthcare plan! He just thinks he can dump it on us. Yeah, I'm BOTHERED.
  • nickiegoomba
    My only disagreement is with begging. More and more, I am getting into demanding mode. One must be polite and reasoned, but the time for begging has ended.
  • JackieM
    I am listening to a town hall meeting with Specter. He is just a typical democrat who is a fool!! He is dancing around almost every subject and is an arrogant SOB! He just said that he didn't have to be there, blah, blah, blah! What in the hell does he think his job is? Obviously, he is just another same ole, same ole elitist who doesn't understand who he works for! the liberals/democrats have gone too far and they are beginning to see this! however, they don't give a damn and are not concerned about our country! HOW UNAMERICAN! of course, people where stupid enough to vote them in in the first place!
  • JackieM
    In regards to protecting people's privacy, specter said they would do everything they could to ensure they TRY to prevent people from breaking into everyone's centalized government files! WHAT?
  • AckAck
    Check out this link.

    https://www.newsmaxstore.com/contribute/lav/ind...

    This is the truth.
  • MrRegular
    I just realized that we regular folks are paying for health care for others and we don't get any of it.

    Did you know that every government employee (such as police, fire, social workers, etc.) gets taxpayer funded health care?

    Did you know that every locked-up criminal gets taxpayer funded health care? Some of them have liver transplants and cardiac surgery.

    Did you know that the terrorists at Guantanamo get taxpayer funded health care?

    Did you know that when Congress passes the bills to fund the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, that the taxpayers also pay for a "free" medical system for their citizens? Yep, even a guy who just blew up a Marine can go his hangnail treated courtesy of the US taxpayer.

    I feel like I'm in the back of the bus. I'm paying for everyone to have health care but me. This isn't right. Why should I pay for others to have something that I can't have - from my government. I paid for health care for others and just because I'm above an arbitrary income level, I can't even get Medicaid. It's not fair!
  • JackieM
    oh but the damn liberals/democrats love this! they want hard working people to continue shelling out their cash to others regardless of the bind it puts them in! the idiot liberals/democrats don't give a damn about us or our responsibilities to our families! they want us to push them aside and think we should pay for everyone else! it is ridiculous! you show me a liberal/democrat and I'll show you someone with no common sense!
  • MrRegular
    You're right Jackie. Why are we already paying for something we can't get. It's because them Liberal/Democrats love terrorists more than they love us. They are like Osama suckers. They suck our money and give it to Osama. Let's tell them if our paying for health care is good enough for Osama, it's good enough for us! Even if liberal don't like it, we deserve the same care that they make us give the terrorists and child molesters.
  • aliy
    It comes down to securing a voting block. Lazy assed people will get out of bed for a hand out. That is why Obama is rushing this stuff through so he can say in 2010 "look what the liberals in congress and the house did for you, you owe it to them to make it to the voting booth".

    Lazy ass, looking for a hand out people went into the voting booth in November and came out with their hands out already looking for a check! If these things don't pass then he's not going to be able to get them off their lazy asses to vote for him again.

    The looser is a LARGE segment of voters and he is trying to align himself with them like he did this past election. The greatest turn out in history for an election, it was the loosers who never bothered getting up before coming out of the wood work for their handout!
  • aliy
    Rep. Donna Edwards was quoted in her town hall meeting (of course, the only part of it ignored by the press) as saying that the health care bill doesn't cover illegals but that a question of citizenship should be the LAST thing an emergency doctor should ask.

    LIE!!!!

    H.R. 676 section 202. Look it up! Migrant Worker Insurance. LIE MS EDWARDS, LIE
  • susanwallace
    You are quoting from the wrong bill ill Aliy--HR 676 which is one of the Senate Bills it is not the House Bill
    which is HR 3200
  • aliy
    I'll start going throught the over 1,000 pages of THAT this week and see what I can find in it. However, it's going to take me a few days to actually READ IT. Something NO ONE in Washington seems to be willing to do.
  • Angela
    AMEN SUSAN!!!!! I'm also all for no taxeson anyone making 50,000 or under, a 5% Income tax for everyone making 50,000 to 200,000, 10% on everything over that to 1 million and 15% on everyone over that-----all off gross no taking off your yacht or 6th home or whatever for dubious reasons/loopholes. This would pay for everything and then some----re-equalize and take some of that "golden" back. But you'll never see that either.
  • Leslie_H
    The wealthy pay a lot more than 15% (try 35%) now genius. And by the way low-income families DON'T pay income tax. We have exactly the type of tax system you are suggesting and it doesn't work so well.
  • aliy
    If the tax code wasn't 54,000 pages someone might TRY to read.

    IRS Tax Brackets for 2009
    10% up to $16,700
    15% up to $67,900
    25% up to $137,050
    28% up to $208,850
    33% up to $372,950
    35% from $372,951 and up.
    So, if THAT'S not enough to support the systems and we did Susans idea we'd be even WORSE off financially as a country.

    I don't know where people get the idea that a few millionairs 1. should pay out MORE than they do already and 2. should support the WHOLE system of loosers who don't want to contribute!
  • JackieM
    of course, this idiot administration is ensuring that people who make over a certain amount can't deduct money they give to charity. so there goes the help for the poor that the morons/liberals/democrats always harp about. here's something i received today that sums it up:

    A French doctor says 'Medicine in my country is so advanced that we can take a kidney out of one man, put it in another, and have him looking for work in six weeks.'
    >
    > A German doctor says 'That is nothing; we can take a lung out of one person, put it in another, and have him looking for work in four weeks.
    >
    > The Russian doctor says 'In my country, medicine is so advanced that we can take half a heart out of one person, put it in another, and have them both looking for work in two weeks.'
    >
    > An American doctor, not to be outdone, says 'You guys are way behind. We recently took a man with no brains out of Illinois, put him in the White House, and now half the country is looking for work.'
  • aliy
    Where have you been?! Nice to see you Jackie!!
  • JackieM
    I don't have your personal email so i can't say here but DS and Bud know the situation. It is an exciting time at my house. I may pop in for a few more days and then probably won't be able to for at least a few weeks. If you have DS and/or Bud's address, have them give you mine so we can email each other. Thanks for asking about me!
  • Angela
    Oh my sweet innocent Leslie

    Obviously you can't read and have never paid taxes...........I said off of GROSS and taxes allow several deductions which rich people have manipulated to their advantage. My sister does taxes for some very rich people, I promise they pay no where near even 10% of their gross.

    I did however, forget to add that stock bonuses and the like should also be included in that gross. And no sweet Leslie gross doesn't mean yucky.....
  • susanwallace
    An Outsider’s Opinion
    The latest figures on income distribution in the United States shows that the top-heavy spread continues to grow. A mere 300,000 people have incomes equal to the total income of the bottom earning half of the entire population. That's 150 million people. Those 300,000 had incomes 440 times greater than the average income in the United States. The last time the income imbalance was so large was in the 1920s&30s. In the 40s to 60’s the gaps between wealth and income were lessened thanks to war, the income tax, pro-employee legislation and labor organizations that forced a mild redistribution of the profits. That's all gone.
    Your constitution intended that there would be one vote for one person. But since money is political power in America the selection of politcal candidates is in the hands of Golden 300,000. They more or less decide who gets on the ballot: Under your present political arrangement the two major-party nominees represent little more than disagreeing factions within the Golden 300,000, and you get to help choose which one is elevated to the ultimate power in the White House.
    Some choice, but that is what you are left with and will continue to be stuck with unless the income gap is chopped down, way down, so that the top people are hauling in only 150 times the average income of the rest of you. Outsiders like myself do not call that democracy and it is certainly not what your founding fathers intended. But you can be certain that any effort to chop it down will be met with huge opposition from the Golden few with millions spent on television adds . It is time that ordinary Americans especially conservatives started asking themselves why they support candidates ,parties and policies be they republican or democrat that continue to enrich the Golden few at their expense.
    The Canadian politician who brought Universal Health Care to Canada over the dead bodies of the Insurance industry and the rich asked Canadians that very same question. He put it this way,“WHY DO THE MICE KEEP VOTING FOR THE CATS”
    Conservatives should stop buying into the Republican cries of shared values ie issues like abortion which they always support and do nothing about after they get elected. These are smoke screens. Americans had better start paying attention to the real issue- HE WHO HAS THE GOLD MAKES THE RULE. And the rules are that the rich have no intention of publicly funding education, health care, energy reform or any other program that will result in the redistribution of income that is so desperately needed if the United States is to remain a functioning democracy. Because issues are so complicated today it is easy for the Golden 300,000 to mount huge televison scare campaigns to make people believe they are on their side protecting their freedom of choice, fighting deficits and defeating that old boondoggle Socialism. But all Americans need do is to keep their eyes on the MONEY.
    In the Health fight ahead while the republicans scream that a government program will cause you to lose your choices please ask yourself if that isn’t exactly what the private insurers having been doing for years. And when the blue dog democrats and the republicans ask who will pay for Health care reform scream in one loud voice the Golden 300,000 –it’s the least they can do.
  • marty
    Subject: Obama Socialism Joker Face Desktop Image for your PC

    http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/08/04/artic...

    Click above "Obama Socialism Joker Face" image URL and make it your desktop image on your PC.

    After saving image (remember the folder you saved it in), put your cursor on your desktop and "right-click". Choose "Properties". Click "Desktop" tab. Click "Browse". Choose Obama image from location you saved it in. Choose "Center" Position. Click "Apply". Click "OK".
  • princequillo
    Hi, Dora. It's "do not" not "do."
  • princequillo
    This is not UC! Too antiseptic. Bye.
  • Leslie_H
    For everyone who has been following Obama's request for a snitch brigade to report "fishy" posts, a few of us have been posting lists of liberal sites on our blogs. We figure that our "post-partisan" President must be equally concerned with people on the left who want to intimidate lawmakers (read sarcasm here). So if you want to have some fun with this, send lists of liberal sites to flag@whitehouse.gov
  • aliy
    I just sent a blog into UC about that yesterday. Can you spell FACIST?! That's O-B-A-M-A and I WANT someone to report me! What I want to know is where the HELL is the ACLU on this one!?
  • markinboston
    aliy - I would like to be civil, and have replied to you before in a civil manner, but since you have pissed me off calling Obama a facist, here it goes... Only a totally ignorant fool would make a statement like that. SHUT your stupid mouth, you sorry excuse for an American. I'm sure you hate the President, and that's your right, but I'm sick of you small minded, short sighted right wingers acting with the arrogance of the entitled and bitching like pouting little girls about how mean the government is to you, oh poor babies. Whine, whine, whiners. Eff off, you stupid shits.

    Oh, and have a bad day! ta-ta!
  • aliy
    And Hillary said "We have a RIGHT to question any administration"

    I'm more American than you in every sense of the word. You support a facist. You support someone who's following HITLERS model as close as he can without you dolts noticing.

    He is a facist and you can call me all the names you want, the facts are on my side.

    So, why don't you get off this site and go find a la la liberal site that thinks Obama is the second coming, I'm sure there are still some out there. We don't buy what you off the nut left wingers sell here.
  • markinboston
    ohhh - poor baby! Do you have a liddle emotonal boo-boo? awwww - ask Sarah Palin to help you, I'm sure she will...

    okay - I hate to have an argument with an idiot - it just isn't fair, but try this... look up the definition of facist. One (partial Wiki definition) is, "Fascist governments forbid and suppress criticism and opposition to the government and the fascist movement"

    I'm sure you can pounce on "Fascists advocate the creation of a single-party state." (from Wiki) - but really - oppression of free and open comment is a primary concern of a facist state. Somehow I doubt you are being oppressed that way.

    Given the paranoia and restrictive policies of W Bush administration, the Obama administration is a fresh breath of air in comparison. By definition, he is not a facist. Okay, I have pandered to your little agenda, are you all happy now?

    If right wing jerks name call and attack personally, turnabout is certaily fair play.
    Get over it, you retarded schmuck...

    To remind you - this began over heath insurance (not health care) reform.
    I think national health insurance makes us stronger and healthier. Yes, A NATIONAL SINGLE PAYER HEALTH CARE, not this wimpy reform thing you guys are so bent out of shape about.

    USA health systems in place fail more an more, day by day, at greater and greater cost. No system is perfect, but we are the laughing stock of the industrial world.

    Help work out the needed changes, or shut up and get out of the way. Please.
  • aliy
    I am sad that such stupidity and vile name calling is coming from my home state. I know there are actual people up there who believe in values and America the way it was meant to be. The way the founders of the country meant for it to be.

    And having a website to report people speaking out against this bill IS FACIST. It IS an oppression. Trying to force everyone to get on a public system so THEY have control of MY healthcare IS FACIST.
  • markinboston
    Thanks for a good laugh. I guess that old saw is true - you can lead a conservative to water but you can't make them think...

    BTW - you pay too much for health care. From Atlantic Free Press, "a September 2007 report to Congress, the Congressional Research Service (CRS) compared 2004 US health care spending with other OECD countries:

    America then averaged $6,102 per person, well over double the average $2,560 for OECD countries - etc., etc.

    You are welcome to have choice - choose to not enroll and purchase the services of a boutique MD - preferably with surgery priveleges if you need that.. have a swell day!

    And thanks for the laugh!
  • aliy
    Whatever Mark, at least you're not calling me vicious names any more.

    BTW- Obama agreed to take out the hospice shoot (you know the one he said wasn't in the bill) if you agreed to take it out, that means....IT WAS IN THERE.

    He also agreed to take out the single payer stuff (you know the stuff he said wasn't in the bill) if you agreed to take it out, that means...IT WAS IN THERE.

    I really hope you are correct and this is a wonderful thing for our country, However, if the way I'm reading it is right, we're totally screwed.

    Do you know we added 181 BILLION to our national debt in July alone? I just don't know where you're going to get the money to pay for this with Obama making deals with Tort lawyers to NOT reform tort and making deals with Pharmacutical companies to buy all the drugs at full price. (Huffington Post broke THAT tidbit over the weekend)

    Where, if the pharmacutical companies and lawyers have been promised this won't affect them, where are we getting all this money? I thought it was sock the rich to pay for this. Wouldn't lawyers and pharmacutical companies be "rich" or are they some different kind of rich liberals like? I'm really confused on this one.
  • Dora
    This has gotten to level of pure, absolute intentional ignorance and stupidity.
    It's more than a little obvious that you have all listened to radio and television conservative spinners rather than the actual source.... AGAIN.
    Nobody is making a list. Nobody is turning in anyone. Nobody is "snitching". Your paranoia forces you people into the most absurd conclusions I have ever seen.
    One of the stumbling blocks the health care reform has faced has been the constant misinformation "out there"... and I do mean "OUT THERE!"... promoted by those with little or no actual facts on hand and those with a vested interested in seeing that nothing is done to alter the status quo.
    In order to address the many, many wrong statements regarding what is represented in ANY of the proposed pieces of legislation (remember, there is no ACTUAL pieced of legislation yet... none. ) in order to address these fears that people have because they are wandering aimlessly with WRONG information- the website asked that people send to them what is being said so that this information could be corrected with the facts.
    The same way that they set up a website during the campaign to correct the outright LIES being put out there about Obama, his positions and platforms, voting record, family, BIRTHPLACE, etc.
  • susanwallace
    Dora I agree with you and I am not going to waste anymore of my time posting on this site.
    It does not matter what facts you present the people on this site they just go right on believing the garbage that is fed to them. It is hopeless. I am willing to bet that not one single person on this site including Alie has actually read the bill.
  • Leslie_H
    aliy- you're right about the ACLU, could you even imagine if Bush had suggested something like this. Hollywood would have ten movies out in a week about some poor liberal blogger who was flagged for telling the truth. Anyways,I figured I was bound to get reported anyways, so I flagged myself (with a satirical note included) and then got to work flagging every liberal site I could find. I have to admit it was kind of fun after a while.
  • aliy
    Sounds like a GREAT idea. I"m going to look up some liberal sites to report now. They want someone to rat on everyone around them I'll give em ratting. We should keep em so burried in crap they can't make heads or tails of it!! Great idea Leslie.
  • apolicestoppedmeyesterday
    Let's see, yesterday after bho said, again, what the enemy needs (rapping-islamicly) "go out and battle" Teaparties and anyone (with gov ressources, expl: acorn is a copy of castro's cdr, aclu: more paralegal war, gral attnys: covering all, cities, etc, the psycologic "war on the anti-terror ideas") I was "coincidentally stopped" by a local police. It was beautifull while that terror unveiled... a Zeus Rush voice simultaniously warning about the recent bho self-declarations and castro-style ordering his assymetrics as ANOTHER chavez, the police listened all (and I'm sure the BILL$ funded pdcruiser even capted the radiowaves of freedom)...
    Now, I'm just waiting to be called before a "powerfull" city "law" person to explain me "what is wrong with me", while of course, I'll re-transmit all info I can summon, even from the previous last 2 in a few months UNIFORMED POLICE "coincidences" (also coincidentaly immediately after "Teapartying on the web").
    And, I want to know if is possible to find out if is true "somebody with my descriptions commited near where I was, an also "coincidental" robbery (with the bho's chavez style of ordering more help to the enemy by using gov ressources to pursue ACTIVE oppositors) ...
    why are acorn, aclu, etc... still being bailedout with more $bil$ than the war on Iraq?
    then, I want to know, if police have already all my info, why I still have to adopt miamidade "law" on all I have dennounced ("by law" parapolitical family, castrocoyote also, why CIA put in jail several of "my" stepmonster's pastors and they are back and... more mad... on me, why p u b l i x and winndixie have progressive retail servs. castro related and even former supermarket "managers saying they CAN do the same as they did on castros stores, why nobody who declares have being part of the comunist party still having "legal IDs", while a farc gerrilla terrorist stole my ID for more than a year, and not even the judge who psyco-tortured me calling me to go "fix" their, the supermarket, problem because the terrorist was caught, and the store's name was on a dilema... and I was "another gender not me or the terrorist stealing my ID where even", on inmigration (the judge's office, easy solution offered me, which of course I rejected)...
    And... why the new UC site configuration have less tittle space?,
    It's too much... for bhoteam$&czra$ to deal IN TE LLEC TUA LLY?
    cooming up: today's or soon more 'police seeking criminals with "my description" coincidences', UNIFORMED... got it?, UNI FORM ED, uni=one, form... an already paralegal war gov assymetrics protecting the invasion civillian illegal allien army mass... which bho has allways treated, along with the terrorists, better, and unlimited care, respect, you know, "better than the withe people"...
  • mlSmith
    It seems there is one thing people are not considering. No one - aboslutely no one, is denied health care in the United States. Some; those without insurance or money, may receive bills for the rest of their lives and many do not pay. Nonetheless, all are cared for. Nationalized health care shifts the debt and restricts latitude of treatment options and is therefore a bad, bad, idea. Doctors do need medically uneducated people making medical decisions.
  • markinboston
    Insurance companies deny claims every day - it adds to their bottom line. Destroying a personal physical health or financial life because they can't pay is cruel and unnecessary. Have you researched actual consumer attitudes in single payer countries? Actual costs?

    I think there are a lot oif unfounded, inaccurate comments being made.

    BTW, universal single player plans are more cost effective than what we have, and would cover EVERY body. Since the conservative agenda is always about more for less, why the resistance?You taxes pave streets (and plow them), provide fire and police. Federal taxes pay for Medicare and Social Secirity and our militay forces, among other things. Please rid yourself of the rediculous notion that government is not for the people.

    per Johns Hopkins study: http://www.jhsph.edu/publichealthnews/press_rel...
    U.S. citizens spent $5,267 per capita on health care. The country with the next highest per capita expenditure, Switzerland, spent $3,446 per capita. The median OECD country spent $2,193 per capita.

    THIS MEANS, if we paid as much as Switzerland, and covered all 307,000,000 citizens in the US, we would pay: $713,322,000,000 USD.

    Compared to $2.2 Trillions we spend now, WE WOULD SAVE: $1.5 TRILLION DOLLARS. So - please work to make this happen. Thank you.
  • markinboston
    mlSmith - a Catholic hospital can deny you the morning after pill, hysterectomy, birth control pills, etc., and there is nothing you can do about it. I agree that, generally, in the case of trauma, you will receive care whether you have insurance or not, but being saddled with a $51,000 bill (as my son was after being hit by a hit & run driver) it can represent a burden you NEVER get out of. A hospital can "patient dump" an indigent person that has no insurance. There are plenty of instances where a patient can be denied care. However, IMO that is not the point. The point is we pay more and get less for fewer people than every other country we have as peers. The system in place is chaotic and insane and inefficient. We need to change, and frankly, I think we should have a single payer plan like ALL our peers, not this half-assed health insurance proposal that has the rightwingers in apoplexy.
  • awhite
    Have you ever had to sit in the emergency room for hours on end in a true emergency? Because I have. Although people aren't denied health care per say, health care for those without insurance can often be delayed. People have died waiting to receive the medical treatment that should be their right as American citizens. At least this reform is attempting to rectify this situation in some way.
  • aliy
    Awhite, if we insure ALL those people who are dragging down the system now do you REALLY think it's going to get better?
  • awhite
    I think it's a start. It's an attempt to change a problem that exists and that's better than not attempting anything at all. We at least need to make an attempt to fix what is obviously a faulty system. For things to get better, we have to act and not just speak. Words don't fix the problem. Actions do, and that is exactly what this reform is.
  • aliy
    Great. LOVED it!! So clear.

    The Liberals in Congress have done that whole "saying no" thing with LOTS of bills. Like, did you know 2 days before they voted on Cash for Clunkers there was a provision in there that the money HAD to be used on an American car, they took that out. Lucky Ford was a big seller on that list but ALL the other cars are Honda and Toyota!!

    The one that gets me with the healthcare bill is that illegals go to the ER get treatment and leave, skipping out on the bill and thus driving up health care costs. But this bill wants to just GIVE them insurance. How about GIVE then a SS card and CHARGE them taxes to be part of it!? All they are doing by NOT allowing that provision in there is making the massive bill go through Washington!

    And don't forget, we must watch what we're saying now or a liberal will report us to flag@whitehouse.gov!!! After all the propoganda minister is watching us....
  • susanwallace
    You have never even read the bill have you?
  • Dora
    Aliy- please don't just plop "facts" here that are so easily shown to be false.
    Ford is not the only American car being sold as a result of "cash for clunkers" as you have stated.
    Here is a link to the actual information:
    http://money.cnn.com/2009/08/06/autos/clunkers_...
  • aliy
    Sorry Dora, I'll conceed I was talking about the top 3 cars on the list. numbers 9 and 10 are Dodge and Chevy. I guess when you look at the top 10 and 7 of them are NOT American cars, you have to assume America's are NOT getting as much benefit from this program as they though. Even if it's divided evenly, 3/10 of $1 Billion dollar is piss change back into our economy as opposed to what we just contributed elsewhere. Would you at LEAST agree to THAT?
  • Urban Conservative
    great post Calvin. Thanks for contributing.
blog comments powered by Disqus