Christmas is not the only holiday. It's naive to think it is and idiotic to declare it so.

I don't know what was ever wrong with "Happy Holidays". I'm not offended by hearing "Merry Christmas", but how can you judge me for not presuming to know what you're celebrating?
The US was not founded as a "Christian Nation". That's not to say it is an Atheist Nation. It was founded on religious freedom. Encouraging store clerks, etc. to say Happy Holidays is not a "War on Christmas". It's just there to make everyone feel comfortable. The only problem is that Christians have jealously guarded a spot as America's religion and are now made uncomfortable by hearing something that does not presume everyone is a Christian celebrating Christmas.

Oh, and Sugama, That part about University instructors being part-time teachers who are failures in their fields... Obviously, you've never spent time at a good University. That re-regurgitated sound-byte from Faux news reminds me of the time Faux news comedians were reviewing the anti-Iraq war protests world-wide and the news actor said "Once you take away the Marxists, Leninists and the guys there for the beer and chicks, there is no one against the war".
The level of rationalization required to falsify the validity of what flies in the face of all logic- needs a new name. How about "Propatainment"...or "Swampthink" or "Vaccuspeak" or "Cleptolinguistics".

Hell, who needs intellect when you have belief! Comfortable lies are so much better than that oh-so-difficult to handle "Gray condition" of actual reality. Reality-based truth is just over-rated.
Believe in the hippie with the beard, long-hair, sandles.. hanging out with prostitutes and society's undesirables ..making wine out of water...being a typical passifist Jewish intellectual who wants to overthrow the status quo.
A total Leftist if I ever saw one. Wouldn't have Pontious Pilot more represented today's repubs? They are the status quo who will use any type of violence to quash their enemies. They worship the golden cow of MONEY.

Every major peace-nick in the US's history has been assassinated or systematically destroyed. The fight between good and evil continues on - with good loosing. Good refuses to stoop to the level of evil in order to win.
You think Clinton could have gotten away with killing 650,000 people on a bad hunch in in Iraq?... or re-routing hundreds of billions of tax dollars to
his friends in Arkansas? The Democrats are held to the bogus standards of the Repubs (the ones they espouse, but don't follow themselves), and the demos fail to fry the repubs for their transgressions which go so farther than
treason, there isn't even a name for it...because the dems don't have the heart to cast stones for a living. The "stone casters" land up being the true perverts and corrupt ones..the DeLays and Foleys. You want perversion? Put a webcam in the bedroom of the biggest stone-throwers against Clinton, and you won't see adults stealing kisses, it's going to be 10 year old boys with whips in black vinyl Lederhosen. They can't pull their teeth out of Clinton's leg even today. Why? Because what you hate most in others -is most likely what's wrong with you. They hate themselves for being for being perverts and thieves and so they cast stones at others who are. Forgiveness? Forget it.
Leave that for Christians...oh right...Dam!

You got me blowing smoke again...

Hey, can I have you car after the Rapture?

Yavor
I am my own false God

Sugarma-
Sorry, I was dealing with visitors here..I'm back! I'm sure it gets boring just
handing it off to each other...like a big lucky Pierre circle. You need some liberals in here to stir it up!.

You know, we could spar back and forth with point-counterpoint (with references) until Ann Coulter starts making more estrogen, but we wouldn't solve even one of the world's problems. Before I cover working together, I'll go ahead and give you another philosophical leg to bite.

The reasons that the current regime cannot stand are:

1. They are not conservatives. They conserve nothing. They operate totally
in opposition to basic conservative principals. They expand government, spend money they don't have and are ever so willing to compromise our inalienable rights. Smoke would be coming out of Barry Goldwater's ears were he alive. Hell, Nixon looks good from here.

2. They have made an "un-holy" alliance with the religious right in order to
get elected, yet are unwilling to actually represent that groups desires in government. These are not pious men. They have nothing in common with
truly religious and decent people. They are the descendants of privilege and of the old southern "owning class" who through the "good-ole-boy" system, maintained the mechanisms which insured their wealth. They have always been above the common law.

3. Their winning strategy is based on pandering to the lowest of human emotions and fears. (Greed, fear of everything -and violence as a first resort) This works very well in the short-term (or in the high-school playground), but fails completely when the majority of people finally realize they hate themselves for being manipulated by base human frailties - and desire to better themselves - and in doing so, reject the people and institutions who manipulated them.

4. Because our system of government actually does work, those leaders who espouse one thing and do the exact opposite, eventually get canned. The internet is going to trump the Faux news channel completely, and no amount of Rupert Murdoch's paid propaganda is going to be effective against it.

5. Because the conservative revolution has been effective - and has been being executed for several decades now, it has reached the peak of it's "arc" and the factions within it cannot continue to work together. They will naturally start vying for power among themselves. This will eventually collapse the movement.

6. Because capitalism is appropriate when resources are theoretically unlimited, and is indeed based on this presumption, our economic system cannot continue to operate as it does. We are hitting our heads on the ceiling of our planet's natural resources capacity. When this happens, Global cooperation is necessary, else we all shall die. The European model of state regulated/moderated free markets is the new paradigm. It's reflected in the fact that several of Europe's countries have now excelled the US in quality of life. As well, the Euro is burying the dollar. The international money is bet on the European model. We, as the adolescent, talented, rich and violent member of the world community- are swinging our arms around, ready to kick the ass of anyone we dam well want, and refusing to play adult with the family of nations. It is just the wrong thing to do right now. Many Adolescents don't make it to adulthood. Let's see if we do.

7. The countries who will prosper in the new world model are those who minimize religious activity. American Theocracy is based on the "faith" that God favors us - our team- and that between God and our technology, we will continue to prevail - without the need to work with or respect the other nations of the world. This blur between the American Christian movement and the government of the US hamstrings our ability to function in a rational manner. The power of the southern protestants has basically precluded anyone who is not a WASP from being president. The last man who got through that filter (as a Catholic) was killed the moment he entered the south. Separation of church and state, now almost completely gone, will relegate us to 2nd tier status. Just like Iran, or England under the church of England, we too shall stop in our tracks. The world is not flat, lets not go back to thinking it is.

8. Their policy of "you can't argue with prosperity" is based on the borrowing of money from China, England and Japan so as to prop up the foundation of an economy which has been systematically robbed. The tax money has already been diverted into their and their friend's accounts. Their progeny will never work again - even if they have to not do it in Paraguay.

There is nothing you can do to stop the fragmentation and collapse of the current Neo-Con regime. Remember, it is half our country - and the rest of the world - against you. The question is, will you destroy our country rather than relinquishing power? You hold all the money. You still have sway over Christians. There is a short window of opportunity when you can still gather as much power and money as possible. That is what is happening right now. The neo-cons are not even covering their tracks anymore, because they have completed their theft, and they are packing their money up. You lemmings will be the last to know. You are the betrayed ones. Your hour of disillusionment is neigh. What is worse for you Sugarma- is that you will be betrayed, and you will be a betrayer. This is because as the 20th century was the Euro-American century, this is the century of hispanics, indians, Chinese and others taking the lead in American culture. You will be one of the non-european collaborators...who capitulated and defended the previous regime. This shift is inexorably in progress and the whiplash from the neo-cons damage to America may be significant and unpleasant. I'd be sure I wasn't in the bull's-eye when it comes to payback time.

You all can relax, not because Global warming is a lie and Jesus will be coming by to get you in his Turbo-Z UFO, but because the destruction of our way of life is all but guaranteed. When the magnetic blips that represent everything you've ever worked for are all zeros and your beloved leaders have followed Rummy, will your anti-human, tough guy philosophy be enough to prop you up? We shall see.

All this said, we wouldn't be discussing these things if we weren't concerned about the USA's future. While the right continues to pit us against each other in a fight to the death over control of America's wealth and ideology, the rest of the world is literally eating our lunch. While we are supposed to be concerned about Ted Kennedy and Jane Fonda and some long-hair hugging trees in Oregon, the rest of the world is trying to gain our lifestyle. As we are 4% of the world's population using 30% of it's resources, when 10% more of the world attains our level of consumption, we will exceed the planet's capacity to support us. At a time when we need deft, intelligent and lucky leadership - we are saddled with a president who is barely qualified to manage a Home Depot and a cadre of his associates who want to go down in history like the roman emperors. If they would only get the fate of some of the roman emperors!

The line in the sand which when crossed makes bloodshed and deep human suffering necessary to restore this country health and balance-
has already been crossed. The national debt is now equal to the net worth of every American alive. These cleptocrats have basically sold our entire country. We are now completely bankrupt. Our lesson is at hand. We have been sub-consciously desiring this come-uppance because everyone knows things are VERY out of kilter. We have totally lost our way and need the kind of value adjustment which brings people back to their core values. The Russians know this...perfection through suffering. Y2K, the comets, the virus', the terrorists...something is coming to deliver us. Osama thinks it is him. The Christians think it is the Rapture. The Liberals think it is the Neo-cons. Whoever you are, you KNOW it's coming.

Oh dang, I better shut up else I'll be responsible for thousands of points fo increased blood pressure. I'll pray to myself for your deliverance.

Yavor
Cleveland

Eastern All-Stars - no sheet!! I think the person who wrote the post was being sarcastic!!

Neoconservative (Neo-con)

Merriam Webster defines it as: a former liberal espousing political conservatism. (www.m-w.com)

Dictionary.com defines it as: moderate political conservatism espoused or advocated by former liberals or socialists.

Basically a neoconservative (neo-con) is a moderate conservative that was once a liberal and although conservative now, still holds onto many of their left-wing, socialist, viewpoints. Some people like to use political names in an attempt to convince people that they are intelligent, however they would probably prove themselves (slightly) more intelligent if they actually used them correctly.

Now for Yavor:
Your comments are the main reason why it is sooo much fun to debate with liberals. You constantly compare apples to oranges, and just pretend they're all oranges for p.c. sake. You argue everything based on your own opinions, with no facts or evidence to back your positions... as if you believe that if you argue it long enough, or try to sound articulate enough, someone will finally believe that you're intelligent. I for one, don't buy your rhetoric.

Now that I've had a chance to educate you, I will rebut.

---Quote: economic development, quality of education and human rights are inversely proportional to religious participation in a country/state

You are obviously uneducated in American History. Who do you think founded most of the elite colleges in America? Christians established: Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Colombia, Brown, and the list goes on.

---Quote: a philosophy [Christianity] which should have died a thousand years ago

You had me laughing so hard on this one. Any Christian will tell you that all the science in the world can explain away this one. You know once, in an attempt to trick Jesus in His words, the Pharisees asked Jesus if it was okay to pay taxes to Caesar. Jesus replied, "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's." Today, Caesar has a salad named after him and the name of Jesus is known (even renowned) in every country in the world, including muslim countries. Hmmm, maybe it's more than a philosophy and maybe if you didn't bow down to your own sense of intellect, you would learn something.

---Quote: Wealth is good, because it means Jesus loves you more.

You really should read the Bible if you want to understand it. God's love is not measured by our own works, but this is often misunderstood by people who have heard of the teachings of prosperity (and without knowing any better) try and connect it with the love of God which is by grace, and grace alone.

---Quote: Ever wonder why universities are full of lefties?... It's because once you are educated, you see through defective philosophies in a second.

The first part I totally agree with, American colleges are predominantly left-wing socialists. The primary reason for this is that a majority of the instructors are liberal socialists. Now there are those instructors who have always wanted to be teachers, but the vast majority of instructors are either part-time instructors or they have failed to make a success of what they were educated to do. And as the old saying goes, "if you can do, if you can't teach." Through these teaching-through-their-own-failures teachers (not inclusive of those who've intentionally become teachers from the onset) our students have been indoctrinated. You can see this by reviewing the curriculums for many West Coast Colleges, like U.C. Berkeley.
The truth is though, after graduation, when their education is complete, when they grow up and get a job, they almost always convert.

---Quote: Love, compassion and forgiveness are the basis of Jesus' message.

True enough, I'll give you props for figuring that one out. However, even Jesus overturned the tables in the Temple Courts, He's not the Prozac Jesus that many liberals pretend Him to be.

---Quote: Look at Ann Coulter or Robert Novak. These are profoundly unhappy people.

How can you in all honest even attempt to know if they are happy or not? They say a few "outrageous" remarks to get the publicity. This in turn boosts their sales. Sounds like a good marketing strategy to me. Have you even read one of Ann Coulters books? Sure, they have an over-the-top title and caption, but the books entirety isn't that way; but regardless, their ability to express their political convictions freely doesn't deem them "unhappy people."

---Quote: On your death bed, you won't remember even one of the 4-wheel drives you had, you will only count the people whom you loved and who loved you.

First of all, I don't have a 4-wheel drive, but am not offended by your idiocy. The second part of your statement is true enough, and believe it or not, conservatives have loved ones too.

---Quote: Lowering taxes means nothing. Feeding people means everything.

If lowering taxes means nothing, someone forgot to tell the politicians that; because both sides consistently make promises to lower taxes. However, I emphatically disagree. If a surplus is created with our tax dollars, the U.S. Constitution has been violated and we (the American people) have been ripped-off by our government. The Constitution gave specifics on why the people could be taxed, to pay for expeditures. Never has the government had the constitutional right to tax us to increase the federal bank account.
As for the feeding people bit, that sure is important and both sides of the political fense believe in doing it, they just do it in different ways. The left believes that it is the governments job. That the people should be taxed (forced to give) to create revenue to pay people that can't/aren't working. This is a socialist idealogy. That it's okay to support plans using other peoples money. The right feels that the current welfare system is a direct contradiciton to the values of a capitalist society. That hard work should be rewarded and sloth should not. We recognize that there are those who are unable to work and have rightfully (out of the goodness of our hearts) contributed to charities to help people become self-sufficient. Additionally, most of the charities in America were founded and continue to be run by those same Christians you hate so much, with donations that come predominantly from those Conservatives you hate so much. Maybe if you libs took the money you give to the ACLU and actually gave it to a soup kitchen, maybe we all could make a bigger difference out of the goodness of our hearts. Maybe instead of people relying on the government to feed them, they could know that they're being fed because they are human beings who mean something in this world.

---Quote: ACLU? You think you hate it, until they are defending you.

I already tried to get their help, but they wouldn't because I'm a Christian.
How's that for equal rights?

Yavor, please tell me what a "Neo-con" is.

Eastern- The little diatribe above is by Yavor, that is -me. I wrote it in 10
minutes - here.

Oh, I had a few comments for Sugama. Hey, ever wonder why economic development, quality of education and human rights are inversely proportional to religious participation in a country/state? Just look at Iraq, Iran, Mississippi and Arkansas. Somehow when a place becomes infected with religious zealotry, science and critical thought go out the window. Development stops or is retarded -by replacement with a philosophy which should have died a thousand years ago. Our science will now be "filtered" through the political filter of the neo-cons and by the bogus corporate spiritualists known as southern protestants, thus relegating it to the status of junk science - just as Russia's science was -when filtered through communism. North Korea, Japan, Russia, India and China will go on into
the future, while we are stuck in the flawed repub re-make of the 1950's -now.

Just like the Quakers love 1885, the neo-cons love 1956. Don't say no to
YESterday. The old ways are the best!

Sure, biological evolution is BS, but social Darwinism is our pathway to wealth. Wealth is good, because it means Jesus loves you more.

Ever wonder why universities are full of lefties? It ain't because they eat tofu at the cafeteria. It's because once you are educated, you see through defective philosophies in a second. The neo-cons are just plain wrong.

Adaption to change is the one definition of life that underpins all others.
Those who adapt survive. To hold onto the past is Anti-Life, and War isn't
Pro-Life either. This bankrupt philosophy is born of fear, weakness and greed. It is doomed from the start, and the antithesis of judeo-christian values.

Love, compassion and forgiveness are the basis of Jesus' message. These values are laughable in neo-con circles. Ever wonder why neo-cons are so full
of anger and vituperation? That's because of the profound emptyness they feel from not having a connection with universal unconditional love. This leaves them bitter and sad. They are saddled with struggling to defend a basically anti-human set of ideas. Look at Ann Coulter or Robert Novak. These are profoundly unhappy people. Stress-related disease would probably
reduce conservative numbers sheerly by natural selection with time.

On your death bed, you won't remember even one of the 4-wheel drives you had, you will only count the people whom you loved and who loved you. Lowering taxes means nothing. Feeding people means everything.

ACLU? You think you hate it, until they are defending you.

Neo-cons- accept that you are not in control- it's the first step to real
empowerment. Or better, Pray a lot. It will make you think you are accomplishing something- while nothing is really happening.

Yavor

Cleveland

Just so you know, this is not a letter "signed and sealed by the ACLU".... its part of the standup routine of comic George Carlin. This is why I hate the internet... it allows people to make claims without having to provide proof or evidence to back it up.

Merry Christmas,

Hockey-Loving Liberal

The coup which has been executed by the neo-cons in the last 30 years has been a total success. It is without parallel in US history. The Christmas issue is just another fabricated PR juggernaut by them. It is not real. "Standard propaganda techniques" have been very effective in a country with a poor general education system, and corruptible mass media. "Politically Correct","Secular Humanist"..etc. are neo-con think-tank manufactured labels which help to objectify, target and denigrate their enemies. Wrapping Southern Christianity and aggressive nationalism together -results in an irresistible dogma for most people incapable of critical thought. For those whose "morality" is the result of fear of castigation by their peers, being in the "in-group" means buying into the total FoxNews lie package. Their day of disillusionment will make the comparison of being lied to about almost getting laid - seem like stealing a pen from work compared to cutting your mother's throat and drinking the blood.
The end game of the neo-cons is to squeeze the economic engine which is the USA for every dollar it can, re-routing the entire country's financial foundation into their own pockets.
The collateral damage (and main actual effect) will be to accelerate the demise of the USA into a 3rd world nation. The European-American century is over, but the teeth-grinding WASP leaders are not going to yield the controller. They will steal the game console, kick you in the head and burn your house. Who cares anyhow, we need our asses kicked hard and no amount of blow-hard flag waving will save even the trance-babbling conservative lackies from enjoying the disastrous consequences of their master's folly. The big red tractor is going to run over you too.

Have a nice day

We can dance around the "core" of the matter all year long, if we really want. The truth, as many of you stated is Jesus is not believed to have been born on December 25th at all. This is true... now what? If we didn't know the exact birthdate of M.L. King, should his life never be celebrated? Of course not!

Christmas is a day set aside by Christians to celebrate the birth of Christ... regardless of his "actual date of birth." We celebrate his birth (Christmas), death (Good Friday) and resurrection (Easter). Although these holy days "holidays" (you bow-down-to-the-ACLU-libs don't even realize what you are calling politically correct) have been celebrated in our country for years, being established as a federal holiday in 1870. America has been a Christian Nation, since it's establishment. It never was, nor was it established to be, an atheist nation. The entire world knows that, everyone but the ACLU that is.

When I was growing up, Russia was considered an atheist country. It was illegal to have or share a Bible, talk to others about God, or display any visual signs of a profession of faith. Today France has adopted similar laws and many Muslim nations and even Israel have anti-conversion laws. America is suppose to be a land of freedom, freedom of religion and freedom of speech were at the core of our establishment. That is the reason so many Christians are offended by the ACLU's frequent attempts to attack our "Christian" liberties... and come on, the "KKK" doesn't represent the heart of conservatives anymore then Kamau Kambon (who advocates the killing of white people) in America represents the heart of most liberals. That was just a low-blow, based on personal bias, off topic and your own attempt to push your useless rhetoric.

As for the commercialism of Christmas, this is absolutely true in our culture. If you don't believe me, celebrate Christmas without buying a single gift for your loved ones. See if it doesn't feel weird in your spirit. We have been trained for years that Christmas is about giving gifts and over recent decades, the gifts have become more and more extravagant. The retailers realize this and have catered to the "selling" of Christmas. Only now they don't want to call it Christmas, they want to disengage from the religious aspect of Christmas and they feel it socially acceptable to infringe on the civil liberties of their employees to acknowledge the holiday. Therefore if Christians want to stop their patronage to a specific store that is no longer selling "Christmas gifts" that is their right to do so, and boycotts have always proved an effective way of expression in our country.

When I became a Christian and gave my life to my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, I never relinquished my rights as an American. I have the right to share my beliefs freely. And people have the right to listen, walk away, ignore me, whatever. Liberals have been indoctrinating our public school system for years. Now they have expanded their p.c. movement into other rhelms. However, as a Christian-American I have the right to say what I want, when I want, where I want. Their is no seperation of church and state (or at least that's what the libs quote - even though that's not in the Constitution at all) that can infringe upon my rights. And it's time for liberals to know that we are not going to sit idly by and let you take the freedom out of America.

http://www.truechristian.org/are_you_a_t_c/chri...

There's your credible source...if you find this one dubious, by all means use google. Christmas is about as "Christian" as donating to Jerry Falwell. Christmas, in its present incarnation (nice pun methinks), has only been around for about 80-90 years. It is a product of mass marketing and the rise of consumerism.

And really, I'm not quite sure why you hold so much vitriol for the ACLU. At their core is the protection of the Bill of Rights and the Constitution. They have represented a number of conservative groups as well, including the KKK.
http://aclu.tribe.net/thread/457fa78a-8a30-41a8...

If you actually did a little research on those for whom you hold so much hatred you might be enlightened. If you still dislike the ACLU for protecting EVERYONES' Rights after you learn about them...well, then you are free to be you.

I know this is in jest, but I liked it a lot!

Christmas was taken from the pagan holiday. Just as almost all "christian" holy "holidays". Christ (if legend is correct) was not born anywhere near the 25th of December. So like a typical CONservative you do not have a clue what your talking about. Heil Bush

Whenever I bid farewell to a clerk (or whomever it may be), I say "Happy Holidays" because a) I don't assume that I know what they are celebrating, and b) because it is less clunky on the tongue than "Merry Christmas/Yule/Kwanzaa/Chanukah/Solstice (pick one) and a Happy New Year."

I suppose you could call me a neo-Pagan, and I celebrate Yule, the winter solstice, but if someone is wishing me a Merry Christmas in a friendly seasonal way, I take it with the good cheer intended. However, it is a bit less personal, and serves to remind me that the person doesn't know me. (I'll add here that I am reasonably normal looking with no facial tattoos or "Kiss me I'm Pagan" shirts.) Thus, I think that the stores which instruct their employees to not specify which holiday to enjoy are simply taking a step to make everyone equally welcome. Given the competition around Christmas, probably a good business move.

What I don't understand is the big fuss about the "War on Christmas." Both sides seem pretty dumb to me. There is no reason to be offended by someone else not knowing your religious views but trying to be nice anyway. And what is the Christian issue? That society is recognizing a spectrum of religions? Or that Christianity is not always the American religious default anymore? I'd appreciate any light you could shed on the subject.

Lastly, I'd like to mention that if I know someone's religion and they know mine, it seems obvious that we'd wish each other the appropriate holiday tidings. If I wished you a Merry Christmas and you in turn purposefully wished me a Merry Christmas instead of a Happy Yule, I'd assume you were being a dick. And you know what? IT IS STILL NOTHING TO GET UPSET OVER.

Well Said!!! LOL

when conservative used to mean something i too was a conservative. i was also an idealist who believed in truth, justice, and the American way. Until I figured out what the American way was, and that conservative as it is used by the said party today is not at all what the true conservatives intended by the term/name. if all you can do is stick to the title but not understand the actual history and practice of the "neo-cons" then your bitching about "merry christmas"issues is about the level i hope you remain at in your attempt at political discourse. otherwise we will all suffer form one more 100point IQ attempting to be brighter. Oh, and happy new year, too.

I actually stopped reading the "aclu letter" three sentences in. but to you I say merry christmas and happy new year. of course saying happ new year might piss off the chinese...oh well. I'm not christian and I celebrate christmas because of the family tradition and memories I have. but I agree with you people are way to sensative. if you don't want somebody to say merry christmas to you then give them your seasons greetings first. like happy chanukah. I won't get mad, nor should anybody else.

Yeah, I saw this last Christmas. It's still funny though.

This was a joke posted by someone on the internet a couple years ago...