Let me try to help you out:
Physics has been well documented and understood ever since Newton and yet, even this year, scientists have found flaws in the basic formulas (f=ma) and had to redefine the way we interpret the data.

You can't get doctors or biologists to agree on how cancers start in the cell and yet we still find more and more ways to treat and cure the disease.

etc..etc...

Your examples (Earth is round, photosynthesis) are pretty easy for a scientist to isolate and describe because they are limited functions: one is inside the solar system, one is inside a cell. The global environment, on the other hand, is much more complex and laced with interdependencies we do not yet understand completely. For example, we only this year discovered that the dust thrown off by the Sahara is critical for the fertilization of the Amazon rain forests.
Because of this immense complexity it is much more possible and important that scientists challenge each others' views. That is how science works. The fact that scientists debate the issues with each other does not mean that the science is bad. If it goes unchallenged then it is not science.

It's funny because the article you linked ended with the scientist "doubter" in question concluding that CO2 DOES play a role, just not as large a role as others purport and finally, he admits that, for the reasons of curbing pollution alone, measures should be taken to reduce emissions.

That logic is dead on with the rest of the scientific community: We don't know exactly how much of a problem it is because the problem is too complex, but it is smart to hedge our bets.


Sounds like common sense to me too.

Greetings-

Well, I did work for the Biological Sciences department of the largest university in the US for a few decades. I can tell you that there is little to no decent among the climate researchers - in their consensus that CO2 is the culprit and
that we are the main contributors. You see, this is not the real issue with conservatives. The issue is weather Jesus put this planet here for we humans to use up - waiting for him to come back and take us to church in the sky for eternity. This is part of the age-old challenge between the earth-is-flat gang and the age of reason. This is between belief, and understanding.

I imagine that we are seeing the death rattle of superstition. It is the last gasp of irrationality and the practice of giving up responsibility for one's actions - to superheros who live in the clouds. You know they are going under when their best defense for validating religion - is proving it scientifically. Of course, the current batch of conservative leaders are not actually religious people. This un-holy alliance is what got them elected, and what will ultimately cause their movement to collapse.

The miracle of our self-consciousness compels us to exercise it. We human animals are best at problem solving. Our environment changes and those who adapt survive. It you believe is things which are not true, or ignore those which are true because of those beliefs, you will pass into obscurity. Religious belief is inversely proportional to intelligence. Those countries and states with the worst productivity, education level and human rights records also have the highest religious participation. This is because kneeling and babbling to fictitious entities does nothing to address the challenges which face us as humans. It is superfluous activity which wastes time and energy needed to insure survival.

Is Global warming real? Yes. Do the "scientists" at Fox News tell you that we just really don't know yet? Yes? Which is true? The "scientists" at Philip Morris still say that cigarettes are not addictive. Is that true? Believe what you will.
Those who use critical thought will prevail.

Yavor - Cleveland

Looks like we might be wrong on global warming.....

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/articl...

"We might be wrong"? Isn't this the anti-global-warming theory crowd here?
"We might be right" is more appropriate.

Let me remind you of Schopenhauer's "Three Stages of Truth":

First, it is ridiculed
Then it is vociferously fought against
Then it is made to seem as though it had always been true.

We are in stage two on the Global Warming truth.
(remember cigarettes, seatbelts and WMDs?)

You see, there has to be a motivation in positing theories which are not true.
Is it that the network of nationwide neighborhood socialist centers are running a campaign to scare the public? Maybe it's the Corporation for Professors that is trying to make a buck off this lie. You see, there is no profit in promulgating a lie about global warming. But, on the other side, there is much profit to be made by uncontrolled generation of CO2 by the energy industry. Nobody with a credible scientific CV has shown any evidence that we are not the main contributor to global warming. It is all people like this fellow from the Times whose writing sounds like the National Inquirer.

So, what if we are wrong? Then everything can go on just as is and Jesus will be picking up the faithful soon enough. What if you are wrong? We might have to use that tax break money for a boat instead of another SUV.
Just analyze the motivations - by looking at the possible consequences of policies. Ignore what politicians say - and their paid "scientists".

Yavor

Yavor - I bet you drive an SUV too. You libs walk a a good walk but that's about it.

Actually I have a 4 cylinder Mazda that I've optimized to 37.5 MPG. Simple
modifications. I also have a large photovoltaic power station in my backyard. I've lived in a solar house for decades...that I built from scratch. I didn't do this to save money. It costs me more in hardware then I'll ever re-coup.

For self-centered repubs, it seems the liberals would have to be hypocrites. Who would do things -just because they were good for humanity?
People are all greedy self-serving animals in the end- right?

Well, let me describe the three levels of Moral Development:

1st: I don't do wrong things because I'll get punished. (childhood)

2nd: I have a duty to my family, church, country etc. If I don't do my duty,
people will think badly of me.

3rd: I have my own set of morals that I have to live up to because I can't respect myself if I don't. I do many things just because they are good for humankind.

90% of adults are in level #2.

Many liberals are hypocrites. Just about as many as there are republican hypocrites. They are just hypocrites. I'm not one of them.

If we are even partially capable of moderating the effects of temperature rises - without compromising our lifestyle - why not try? Why not challenge Americans to get off oil? Why not have a new Manhattan project where we send 300 of our brightest engineers into the desert and tell them to find another energy source? Why we don't is because our leadership is in the oil business. It's pretty obvious. It just shows a total lack of leadership - and true concern for Americans. They have got you trained to go for the throats of anyone who gets in the way of their ability to make money. It should be patriotic to work for independence from Arab oil. Instead, Solar energy is in the word bag with liberal and communist.

Brazil is off foreign oil this year - and we know their leadership is probably corrupt. So what does it take for us to be unable to get off oil? Corruption and Greed at the highest levels. Maybe after North Korea gets renewable energy and affordable health care, we can imitate them.

Yavor

My next door neighbor gets 10MPG with his Murcielago and I'm sure it's worth it.

Sure..whatever...he can afford it...let's have another beer. Bold disregard for reality is a cool fashion statement. Who cares? I got mine. Lets go down partying! (in flames)

Rock on dude

Exactly

To Yavor,

I simply find it amazing that you try to connect Christianity with Global Warming. Astounding. I happen to be a christian conservative with three college degrees and work in the IT field. Please do not try to connect religion with lack of intelligence. It is insulting to me. Stick with the argument concerning global warming.

As for your other statemtents, let me try and respond.

1) There is BIG money to be made in the Global Warming scare. It allows government to mushroom by the generation of new laws and regulations; and since there will be people needed to enforce these new laws and regulations, this will require more government agencies.

Also, washed up politicians like Al Gore seems to be making a very healthy profit from it...

2) To say that the current leaders of government is in the back pocket of big oil is a slight misrepresentation. I had the opportunity several months back when the big oil people were up on Capital Hill, having to explain the high cost of oil.

It was fascinating to note that the Big Oil companies are also heavy into alternative fuel. They dump tons of money into it every year. And why wouldn't they? We get oil from Venezuela. Venezuela is run by a loonie. WE get oil from the mideast. Many of the mideast countries still don't let women have rights and are always in constant turmoil. They want alternative fuel technology, so that they do not need to rely on the generosity of nutjobs who run the countries where we get oil.

Secondly, every time we have tried alternative resources in the past, people have gone nuts about it. For example, nuclear energy. Europe is almost completely run by nuclear energy, yet we can't get one built here in the United States. Why? Because of Three Mile Island that caused a scare several decades back. The fear was fallout, but there was none. None. Yet, Left Wing groups go ballistic whenever someone mentions the N word.

So, what about other alternative fuels? Biofuels? America has not the capacitry to grow enough crops to make this truly feasible.

Thirdly, there are numerous businesses and organizations that are working on alternative fuels. And amazingly, they are being endorsed by private sector dollars, not government dollars.

But what of the Global Warming argument? Simply put, there is so much mud flinging going on that it is hard for most people, such as myself, to make a solid, educated opinion.

When I can see a concensus between all sides that can agree on Global Warming, then I will accept the outcome. I remember that the same people who argued that the Earth is getting warmer are the same people who claimed that the Earth was getting cooler back in the 70's.

Don't confuse my religious beliefs with skepticism. Unless you forget, the Bible commands man to be the caretaker of the Earth, and I take this seriously.


Mike

Yavor - you are so quiet.

Ohh... some rebuttal! Alrightie. Well, should I dissect each comment made -so as to make myself the "point leader", or capitulate some ideological ground so as to gain humble respectability from the peanut gallery...what's the right tac?

Swimming in infested waters is not for the meek. OK, I'll address some of the counter-points made.

Why do I mix faith with Global Warming? It is exactly this un-holy alliance between the religious right and the Republicans that put the neo-cons in power.(and the one which will fracture them in the end)

It is the fact that no secular position or scientific opinion statement on any issue from the right can be put to the light of rational analysis because once you mix the Bible and corporate greed with science, you have garbage. It is like mixing Socialism with science. The Russian's science was corrupted by Socialism, and our science is in the process of being corrupted by Christianity and greed. It is like analyzing a water sample using tarot cards. Once our Christian/Corporate government codifies the qualifications for releasing "scientific data" to the public, our science will loose all international credibility. They do this by qualifying funding to go to appropriate science only. They do this kind of thing all the time. If you are a federally-funded researcher, you can't release a paper on Global Warming right now without federal review/oversight. If you want to get a contract in the Iraq now, you have to sign a document that states that you are a Christian. Now who is in whose pocket?

Exxon recently stated that they are not interested in investing in alternative fuels in the immediate future. They will put their money into expanding production of oil. The Repubs have fought renewable energy for decades.
Now they realize that even their constituents see the writing on the wall. They have allotted the least possible money to make the claim that research is being done. 10 million federal dollars was allocated in 2006. That's what...new tires for a B1? The last thing they want is solar panels on everyone's roof. Why do you think BP and Shell bought out the main manufacturers of solar panels? It is about insuring their money flow, not the survival of the US. Their dynasties will outlive the US. Rummy is the first to run and the Bush's are buying land in South America as we speak.

"America has not the capacity to grow enough crops...". That is another one liner from the Coulterland. The main thing that makes this piece of land the best place on earth is that we have temperate weather and the highest ratio of arable land of any country on earth. We pay farmers NOT to grow.
The paid mouthpieces of the oil industry are now executing a PR campaign to dis-credit Ethanol. "It's just not possible". "It can't be done". Brasil just did it. Sugar cane is better than corn at producing sugar. The 150+ farm south Texas cane sugar co-op was recently shut down. We could replace 10% of the oil used in transportation - next year. Why won't we? The good old boys aren't in the income stream yet. As soon as they are, we will.

Global warming? Again, look at the money trail. A main goal of the current administration is to lower regulation of all types on big business. They have un-done decades of regulations in the last six years. These regulations brought you things like breathable air and drinkable water. Sure, you can buy bottled water now and soon probably a tank of air and mask (get a mask to match your suit!). Regulation of CO2 production would cut into energy companies obscene profits. Can't have that. What is next, do away with the Union created "weekend"..or better..un-do the child labor laws so we can get those 8-14 year olds back to work?

"It allows government to mushroom by the generation of new laws and regulations...". So that's where the money is to be made by promulgating a Global Warming scare? Well, the neo-cons have grown the biggest and most wasteful government in US history. Hundreds of billions of dollars have been taken off the table by these cleptocrats. Huh, isn't it the right that says Global Warming isn't a fact? It is like saying the media is controlled by the left. If it was so, do you think we would have had 3 years of 24/7 Clinton investigation coverage? Take one logical thought past the overt lies, and the house of cards falls apart. Of course you don't need to think - if you have belief.


You want to talk big cycles? The one we are cresting right now is the same one we crested after the turn of century (1900 JP Morgan / Standard Oil). Power, money and control of manufacture have concentrated into the hands of fewer and fewer people. The middle-class have been squeezed for every dollar. People are working as many hours as they can to make ends meet.
It is the crest of the capitalistic cycle. When the big sucking sound comes, even your broker will tell you, "the money is gone". Keep a deep pantry and lots of ammo because we are all going to be on the same playing field that day. You can't break these cycles - read history. I'm sick of eating cake.

I remember the Bible saying that God put the earth here for us. With the rapture coming soon, there is no reason to conserve the earth. With the bible as your rationale, there is no reason for thinking. God said it is so.
When will belief in superheros finally die out? The countries with the lowest religious participation are the ones with the highest standard of living, best educational systems, best health-care and best human rights records.
The opposite is true. Just look at Sweden, Denmark and then Iran, Iraq..hell, look at New York and California vs. Mississippi and Arkansas. Russia and China had a fraction of the crime and corruption we have enjoyed in this country before they moved away from atheism/socialism. Look at prison populations, divorce stats and drug use.
Atheists are statistically "better behaved" because their value system is based on internally generated and personally-developed values which are not externally imposed on them through force and fear. Being good makes sense. Humans are intrinsically good, not born sinners.

Just like socialism becomes counter-productive once a country has basic infrastructure, religion becomes counter-productive once people can read/write and think for themselves. I remember that the last time religion was universally accepted and dominated the world...was the Dark Ages. It is time for the fairy tales to end. It takes guts to face the truth. We are now smart enough to have values based on rational discourse and consensus.
Fear of burning in a sea of fire for eternity is only to keep people who have no capacity for rational thought in check.

Oh, and Al Gore...Micheal Moore...George Galloway... the very few lefties who have any access to the public's ear.... Thank God for them!

I pray that your pain is eased on the day that you find your leaders have betrayed you. (and that there is only blackness when you close your eyes)

Yavor
Cleveland

Arron,

Sorry you haven't the time to write a decent rebuttal to my previous post.

Sorry you have a demanding job. I figure that if your personal capitalist policies were so effective, you'd be liberated from having to work by now- as I am. All I had to do was build a solar house by hand. I invested the money I would have spent on energy and was able to become leisure-class in my 40's. Sold that place in 90 minutes for a bundle. Go Solar!

I'd be sure I had an ever-increasing pay scale so as to pay for your un-planable energy costs in future. It is the least you can do for the people you support. Their golfing greens costs are going up you know!

Sorry you have to live in a country with a workable medical system, equitable pay system, clean environment and respect for freedom. Seems you guys have been under leftie control for most of your lifetime. Just terrible what those folks create. Must have stifled your ability to become filthy rich -ehh?
You might have been retired by now.

Personal attacks aren't fun - are they?
Honey Child, I've spent considerable time in 27 countries and you couldn't imagine my personal history.
---------------------------------------------------

Alright, here is my last post.

Posit one: The international dynamic which has evolved is so beyond the imagination of your average citizen in the west, it is laughable.

The ability for our (US) government to operate with the illusion of fairness and respect to it's own principals vis a' vis international operations has ended. There is no way it can effectively lie to it's own citizens about the way it must operate in able to survive in this environment. It is just too far a stretch.

Posit Two: The idea that Utopian moral idealism is applicable to the way in which a government must operate is beyond laughable. Even simple respect for international law or common morals is a luxury which cannot be indulged in any more.

Maintaining access to energy is the prime function of armed forces these days. We have gotten ourselves into a situation where we must compromise the exact ideals which we are based on - in order to insure our own continued existence. It is just the reality we face. To continue to use more than we need, we will have to use everything we have to de-rail the growth of other nations.

Posit Trois: There is no way to "sell" energy conservation and renewable fuels to a western public. We are used to using whatever we can afford to use. Minimalism is just not fashionable. It is counter to everything our western style of living represents.

Driving vehicles which can take ten people to Alaska - as a fashion statement- is considered a right. Saving energy won't make it available for everyone on the planet. It will just make it less available for us. Capitalism is based on continuous growth. Technology is being relied on to break the relationship between natural resources and population. Even "tempered" free markets in Europe won't stave off the changes in international energy demand and eventual shift of power to Asian economies. It may not be possible with any amount of military spending - to stem the rapid decline of the west.

One of our only options is to strap the next two hundred and fifty thousand years of life on earth with the task of containing thousands of tons of the most toxic poison on earth. We've been using it for 40 years and had a good record so far ehh? Shouldn't be a problem.

Oh, and by the way, the Fraser Institute is just an ad agency for Milton Friedman's philosophies. A nice website and a bunch of essays solicited from people who agree with you- does not make a credible organization. Even having over 450 of these "Think Tank" propaganda machines on the right - hasn't convinced the public of the merit of their ideals. Democracy may even prevail in spite of these paid public opinion manipulation organizations. We may not be corruptible with sheer money. The last vote here proved that.

So, in the final analysis, who will be seen as the ones who took the "high road"? Will the codification of human greed in the rules of Friedman open markets and Any Rand promotion of self interest be the king of the hill? Will they be the "Winner". Or might it be the faction who held onto human dignity, love and respect for the higher ideals of human nature- even though they were defeated. Those who use violence and avarice to achieve their ends may triumph in the short term, but it is that small spark of human love that will mark us as the special animal we were. Whatever the consequences and costs, a person who has truly attained wisdom must place their hat on that side of the fence.

Yavor

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Don't you remember the rules here on the forum? If a leftie starts to rant, you have to ignore him - DON'T REPLY. If you do reply, just say you just can't imagine what his point is. It is the only way to get rid of them.
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I have been reading through the last few posts and if you truly are 17 years old Aaron, I am extremely impressed with your knowledge in politics. You both make very good points on your topics, but I am starting to side with the Fraser Institute's opinion on Global Warming. I am not very knowledgeable on the topic myself, so I am eager to read the upcoming posts from the both of you. As for Yavor, I came to the conclusion after reading some of your posts that you are a Socialist. I think it is important that you understand the importance of Capitalism. The concept of socialism (basically that financial equality will benefit the country) is unthinkable potentially eliminate the motivation that this country sees today to "become better than the rest". This self-drive is needed in order to keep the country's well being improving as it has in the past. I am looking forward to your future posts

- Buffini

To Yavor;

When I read your posts, I have to squint to find any substance. It seems you spend A LOT of time slamming christians and Republicans. It is actually pathetic. Your dribble only fuels the debate over Global Warming.

Why not stop slathering your posts with Socialist liberal scattle and actually write about global warming.

It seems your posts are more concerned about finding scapegoats than it is about trying to find concensus.

Oh, by the way, I have placed your name on my prayer list...

Here are some reasons why I do not buy into the Global Warming hysteria:

1) http://www.climatescience.org.nz/

This site gives repeated examples and articles, written by respected journalists and scientists from around the world.

It gives direct examples of scientists being muzzled for questioning global warming.

It talks of the UN and its own agenda, and how the hysteria of global warming is helping accomplish said agenda.

There are tons of sites out there.

And to top it all off, the New York Times wrote a lengthy article concerning Al Gore's science fiction movie. It seems that many scientists and starting to shy away from many of their stances. Funny how when the light gets turned on, the cockroaches scatter for the darkness....

Thanks for the idea Michael- And thanks really for the forum here. I know I've used over my quota of bits to spew the standard litany of leftie ideology.
I hope there comes a time when the polarity - de-polarizes to the point where we feel the necessity to have co-operation between left and right. I think this time is now...to help save the USA -with the tremendous international challenges it faces. Most typical lefties are willing to do this, but feel over-run by the vociferousness of the right's platform and techniques. Hats-off to the effectiveness of the right's tactics and execution these last few decades. It is a tremendously effective campaign. Joe and Jane average support you - without even knowing what the actual issues are. The small cadre of take-no-prisoners right-wing intellectuals who run the show are stellar operators. There isn't one on the left (except Dean) who has the capacity most of these folks do. I don't know weather it is that the basic leftie philosophy prevents their people from using tactics which are required to control the debate, their funding is inadequate, the philosophy innately makes it unable to "win", or somehow you guys are right and people will always side with more money and power for themselves.

The dog-eat-dog operative is just where we are as a species I guess. Utopian idealism about a world where humans live in peace - using just what they need to survive...is just unrealistic when it comes to humans. Molds compete, we compete. Question is, somehow we have been given this capacity for compassion. It is one of the only differentiating qualities we have from the other animals. Why does this exist? Why do we keep our defectives alive? (like Steven Hawking). Why is it -as we have progressed through the centuries that we have become more "humane"? Is this component of the human character worth something? May it even have a competitive advantage that we don't see currently? Why do most all religions aspire to promote this? Entire governmental systems have been based on this premise, and although failed, ran their course as human experiments.
Bizzare indeed that Communism was atheistic- when it promoted working together for the common good, and capitalism is merging with Christianity when it's core value is social/material Darwinism. Humans are indeed complex.

My philosophy is that self-awareness is the feature that evolves in animals- which drives them to extinction. It is the contaminating "bug" in our operating system that creates the un-resolvable questions we ask ourselves. It is the reason we don't hear from other civilizations. Once you can build a vehicle to leave the planet, that's just about when you wipe yourself out.
OK..digression!

So, take care and keep the dialog going. Remember that survival of each of you depends on the survival of all of us.

Yavor

Yavor writes:
"Most typical lefties are willing to do this, but feel over-run by the vociferousness of the right's platform and techniques. Hats-off to the effectiveness of the right's tactics and execution these last few decades. It is a tremendously effective campaign. Joe and Jane average support you - without even knowing what the actual issues are."

I respond by saying that this is typical hogwash. Bill (aka "Slick Willy") Clinton, Hillary Clinton, Howard Dean, James Carville, John Kerry, Al Gore, Al "Sharpton, Al Franken, John Murhta, and Nancy Pelosi. Pick a name, any name. Watch the spin that these people use on a constant basis.

The fact is, ever since George Bush won the 2000 election, the left had an awakening, so to speak, that there are many more Christian conservatives in America than what they thought. Sure, we had been given names in the past, such as the Moral Majority, but these terms were used to minimalize our viewpoints and belittle our opinions. Suddenly, we were the ones "responsible" (at least according to the liberal press) for electing Bush. And ever since then, the Christian conservatives have been bashed for everything wrong in the world. But we can take it. Ever since Jesus ascended into Heaven, not a single generation of man has gone by that did not have to deal with persecution. Thus the comment concerning "joe and jane average"; it has always been the left's view (or at least a large portion of it) that has always contended that man is unable to govern or take care of himself/herself, and it is government's responsibility to develop a "crade to grave" approach to take care of mankind. The Christian conservative has always believed in the importance of man's free will. God created man with the ability to exercise his free will. The kind of government that the current Democratic party supports is exactly opposite to this philosophy. I can recall Hillary Clinton's approach to childcare back in the 90's, with her statement that "it takes a village to raise a child." In that one statement, she was able to summarize the entire Democratic philosophy, which is government knows whats best for me, and I don't. Pure hogwash.

Yavor writes:
"Question is, somehow we have been given this capacity for compassion."

I respond by saying that to the Christian conservative, this is not surprising at all. The Bible is brimming with commands for Christians to love one another and care for one another. And we do is numerous ways. We are the ones who run almost all of the soup kitchens. We have larger food and shelter outreach programs than anyone else. We run a majority of the Hospice programs, a majority of Aids hospice homes and clinics, the Southern Baptist Convention (which I am a member of) has the second largest disaster relief ogranization in the United States (second ONLY to the government). I could go on and on. The fact is, we have been, and will continue to be in, the people business.

Yavor writes:
"Bizzare indeed that Communism was atheistic- when it promoted working together for the common good, and capitalism is merging with Christianity when it's core value is social/material Darwinism."

I would disagree that communism works for the common good. In capitalism, wealth is controlled by people, and it is true that some people are able to control more than others. In communism (and even in the different evolutions of socialism), wealth is controlled by the government, where a select few determine how much everyone else gets. There is an old saying that says "power can corrupt, but absolute power corrupts absolutely."

It has to be said here that Christianity is not against wealth. But the Bible does warn about the corrupting influence that it may have, especially when we let it come between our spiritual walk with Jesus Christ.

Please remember at all times, that to not look to me for perfection. I am far from being perfect and I will never be perfect in any part of my life.

There has been only one man who was perfect, and he was crucified for it.

Your friend,
Michael A. Davis

Wow Michael-
I thought I could walk away in a tone of mutual respect. Did I forget, there is no compromising for conservatives. It is winner takes all, and at any cost - by any tactic. Rock on.

Of the list of names you posted..Dean and Carville are the only "steel-trapped minded" thinkers on the list. They are the only ones who could get in the ring with your typical O' Rielly or Limbaugh. You think the left has prevailed in any way in this country? We are the most right-wing western democracy in existence. The rest of the western civilized world thinks we are a bunch of loony violent religious zealots.

You can't even get near major public office unless you profess you southern Christianity. The last Catholic that slipped through that net didn't come home when he visited Texas. The southern Baptist convention is second only to the government in political power. Services are nothing but political rallies and business networking meetings. They are the pinnacle of the corruption of Jesus' message. Aggressive, arrogant, power-hungry, wealth-focused and intolerant of even the Methodists. It is the Stepford religion. I consider it a direct manifestation of the Devil. Pure Evil.

"Moral Majority"..a term coined by Newt Gingrich (yes, same guy who was having an affair as he was castigating Clinton). It is part of the republican
revolution which he engendered. One of their best tactics? Control the language and you control the dialog. They then generated target labels for their enemies...Politically Correct, Secular Humanist...etc. These fabricated labels helped objectify and ridicule their competition. Ingenious!

"It takes a village to raise a child"..that represents governmental control to you? That means that it takes more than one parent and a welfare check to raise good kids. It takes a network of support..of people...a support structure. The only reason you are so afraid of Hillary is because she is smarter than you, she is wealthier then you, she is aggressive and she is a woman. Add the power of female sex to that and your average teeth-grinding male retrograde is rendered superfluous. Scary Ehh?
Get used to it, half the planet are women. Go change your oil and let the women take the reigns for a while.

Christian relief organizations? Yup, seen them in action all over the world. Starving people come into a food bank in Africa and before they can eat, they have to go through indoctrination. Starvation is used as a means to gain converts. What's next, you going to beat them into submission?
Oh, forgot, that was the technique before this. (crusades)

"Prosperity Theology". Sound familiar? My niece's church in Wimberly Texas is one of those. Boy is it a expensive-looking building. Their top four tenants are woven on a big cloth banner over the sanctuary. The first on the list is
"WIN". Win what? The lottery? The more Zog loves you, the more money he gives you? Does Golden Cow ring a bell?

Don't you realize that that Liberal Jesus Christ - would be dis-assembling your religion first if he came back? That Jewish, Long-haired, passifist, sandal-wearing, wine-drinking revolutionary that hung out with society's rejects and wanted to over-throw the existing religious hierarchy..he couldn't have been more of a liberal democrat. All the miles of polished brass banisters and gold-gilded furniture in your typical baptist church mean nothing to God. That is an affront to him. (if he actually existed)
All your finery is made to extol how lovely and de-luxe you are - and how
lacking your competitors are (other religions). Our two top churches here are in a locked battle to out-do each other. One has a real Starbucks, and the other only a "coffeehouse". God forgive you all.

Members of these corrupted religions will go to church three time a week for a lifetime and NEVER get the simple message of Jesus Christ. Hell, I'm an Atheist , and it's obvious to me. What is it? Show love and care to everyone you meet. Forgive them, and especially those who have hurt you. Have compassion for the poor and weak.

Take all that HATE you have for people who are not hurting you and forgive them. This is the only way to obtain grace. (Don't have to- I'm an Atheist)

You are a miracle with legs, start acting like one.

Yavor
(AKA - The "Provocateur")

Yavor writes:
"The southern Baptist convention is second only to the government in political power. Services are nothing but political rallies and business networking meetings. They are the pinnacle of the corruption of Jesus' message."

I respond by saying that you are sadly indoctrinated into your own ideologies that you can no longer see the forest for the trees. We don't believe in abortion, gay rights (and in some instances, gay rights), large government, and because we support the war (in majority, anyways). Yet, when we stand up for what we believe in, the liberal mind implodes because it cannot wrap its mind around such concepts. The liberals believe in tolerance, yet cannot tolerate a Christian who sticks to their ethics and beliegs. Hypocrisy at its finest.

Yavor writes:
"The only reason you are so afraid of Hillary is because she is smarter than you, she is wealthier then you, she is aggressive and she is a woman."

I respond (which is hard, since I almost fell out of my chair in laughter). Hillary is not any smarter than I. She is wealthier, yes. But I could be wealthy, too, if I trashed my ethics and all moral principles like she did. you say she is aggressive. I say she is an ego-maniac. As for the woman part, I am a bit confused by that line. Please don't tell me that you think I cannot mentally handle a woman in a position of authority. Oh, I keep forgetting. I am a Christian conservative, which (by your convoluted way of thinking) means that she should be barefoot, pregnant, submissive and silent. The more you write, the more you show how little you know.


Yavor writes:
"Christian relief organizations? Yup, seen them in action all over the world. Starving people come into a food bank in Africa and before they can eat, they have to go through indoctrination. Starvation is used as a means to gain converts. What's next, you going to beat them into submission?"

I respond by saying that again you are misinformed. If you must know, my brother happens to be going to Tanzania (which is in Africa, just in case you know geography as well as you do christianity) on a missions trip for almost three weeks. The SBC (Southern Baptist Convention) has 60 missionaries in Tanzania at the moment. So far, we have helped them with crop production, medical help, supplies, sanitation, and a multitude of other programs. And we do all this without any "indoctrination". Simply put, the missionaries do good will for the community in hopes that the people will see our unconditional love and respond. Again, off the mark, but I admire your tenacity.

Yavor writes:
""Prosperity Theology". Sound familiar? My niece's church in Wimberly Texas is one of those. Boy is it a expensive-looking building. Their top four tenants are woven on a big cloth banner over the sanctuary"

I respond by smiling. Each year, people file into huge auditoriums to see grown men play kid's games (football, basketball, etc) in multi-million dollar buildings. If a large congregation is able to generate funds to build a beautiful sanctuary in the name of Jesus Christ, how much greater the glory of man to show his desire to please God! We are commanded to give to God the best that we can give. This also covers the buildings and grounds of the church, as well. Of course, you see nothing but a money-grubbing monopoly. Sorry to disappoint you again.

Yavor writes:
"Don't you realize that that Liberal Jesus Christ - would be dis-assembling your religion first if he came back? That Jewish, Long-haired, passifist, sandal-wearing, wine-drinking revolutionary that hung out with society's rejects and wanted to over-throw the existing religious hierarchy..he couldn't have been more of a liberal democrat."

I respond by saying that you need to polish up on your Bible and jewish history a little. Jesus was compassionate and caring for all mankind, regardless of the station in life. Somehow, the liberal mindset is that only the liberal democrat is compassionate while conservatism is the antithesis of compassion. Sad how confused the left is on this concept.

Jesus was jewish, considering that he was from the household of David. He was long haired like many others in his time. I am not sure on the pacifist part, though, lest we forget about him physically throwing the money-changers out of the temple. He drank wine like everyone else, due to the unsanitary water supply in those days. As for who Jesus "hung out with", in the book of Matthew, Jesus states: "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick." Simply put, to save the lost, you must go to the lost. We, as christians, are commanded to help the needy and forgotten. As for the part about overthrowing a religious heirarchy, again I would defer that comment. Jesus' coming was foretold in over 260 verses of scripture in the Old Testament. He converted whole mutlitudes of jews and gentiles alike, meaning that the Jewish people were awaiting his arrival. The only people that Jesus had problems with were the Pharisees, scribes, and Saduccees. These people recognized that Jesus would be the destruction of their religious money-making systems. Jesus fulfilled all prophecies that concerned 'The Messiah'.

Yavor writes:
"All the miles of polished brass banisters and gold-gilded furniture in your typical baptist church mean nothing to God. That is an affront to him. (if he actually existed)"

I respond with a slightly raised eyebrow. If you don't know God and do not believe in him, how do you know what is or is not an affront to him? Do you profess to know the scriptures? If you do, please let me know where is says that we are to worship in plain brown rooms with plain windows and wooden pews?


Yavor writes:
"All your finery is made to extol how lovely and de-luxe you are - and how
lacking your competitors are (other religions). Our two top churches here are in a locked battle to out-do each other. One has a real Starbucks, and the other only a "coffeehouse". God forgive you all."

I respond by saying that I would have to question the biblical foundations of these two churches. While there may be some strange reason why the two have done this, I cannot say. I do not know their situations. What I do know is that churches should never be in business to be in business.

Yavor writes:
"Members of these corrupted religions will go to church three time a week for a lifetime and NEVER get the simple message of Jesus Christ. Hell, I'm an Atheist , and it's obvious to me. What is it? Show love and care to everyone you meet. Forgive them, and especially those who have hurt you. Have compassion for the poor and weak."

I respond by saying that this statement is not exactly correct. The message is that all men are sinners and the only way to receive salvation and grace is to accept Jesus Christ as your own personal savior, then confess that you cannot make it on your own without the love, compassion, strength and understanding that only comes from allowing the Holy Spirit to come into your life, which only happens when you confess Jesus as Lord of your life. Once a person does this does the rest happens. It is written the Christians shall be saved by their faith and not by works.

But it we truly have Jesus Christ in our lives, the compassion, stewardship, love, and caring will be abudantly shown to those around us.

In conclusion, I leave you with a passage from 1 Corinthians 1:26-31

“Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, so that no one may boast before him. It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord."

It means that God uses ordinary people to do extraordinary things, and that man gets himself in truly when he tries to rely on his own wisdom.

Your friend,

Michael A. Davis

Anyone old enought to remember Kennedy? Boy, they "popped" him didn't they? Showed him.
In addition to a successful Moon program (put together by 300 scientist in a swamp in Houston) we were hearing plans for Nuclear power "too cheap to meter" (Hear the bankers and utilities groan), a separate interstate system for 18 wheelers (Hear the insurance dogs groan). Etc.
OK..this country has been turned over to "bidness", the only thing that matters is "money, honey" Hope you are happy, it definently won't last.
It's not about Religion, it's about how much can you bill? Can you pad it, can you steal it without getting caught. Can you "Cutty up" to a Cadillac..
What utter bullshit.
It is now Shallow Whitebread Culture methodically destroying the engine, or source of strength that propelled this Country.
Have you driven from Houston to Atlanta lately? Just to see the land?
Oh, I forgot, you're special and you fly your "frequent liar" miles, have a Scotch and DONT look out the window because you'd never know where you were anyway. Har Har, Geography (funny jock grin)....let's talk about 'dat back nine...
The entire South is good arable dirt 100 feet deep...we can grow all of anything we need.
The main point is this system is now based on "billing"...I need to control the oil, the corn, the car sale, the electricity, the face lift, the Viagra...
so I can "bill you" and do sum "bidness".
Oh yeah...let's grind the infrastructure and the people to bits so we can sniff and snort and drink and buy and even believe that we matter?
Do you have handtools, work on your own car, fix anything at your own house? Do you grow anyhting or even plant anything...no....you're SO SPECIAL , Don't you, in your startched little hearts, feel inadequate?
C'mon..you really can't do anything but act and think shallow, and pay de bill of the people who keep you running. The scond the lights go out, the fridge goes off, the pump is dry....you are "easy toast"

Michael-

Thanks for responding in a rational manner, as my post was a bit inflammatory.

You have to realize that for people like myself, you may as well be talking about Spiderman. I mean, if you just changed the word "Jesus" to "Larry" and said the same things, you'd be institutionalized.

For me as a Charismatic Atheist, I'm just glad that the general message of Christ was something I can get behind. It is common sense. As far as being a sinner from the get-go, that's a terrible concept. I believe that we are all born pure and free from evil. We get lost along the way, damaged and injured. If we are lucky, we find wisdom in the end- and that is the non-verbal understanding that we are like I say, A miracle with legs.
We are a part of some bizzare evolving continuum of life...and it's OK.

I won't accept any easy comforting answers to the big questions- if they are a lie. And for sure, there is no guy that looks like santa clause with a toga on- floating in the clouds-with lightening bolts coming out of his fingers who made all this in his spare time... as an experiment of good vs. evil. It just ain't so. Doesn't matter how high the steeple is on your church, It's not true. And whatever it really is, we have about as much chance understanding it as fire ants do. So, just smile, accept your insignificance and be nice to others.

How much you want to bet that in 500 years, we look back and chuckle at the whole Jesus cult? Zues, Ra, Bacchus, Minerva, Vulcan...they are all in the dust bin. And so will be this monotheistic god with no particular name.

Good thing? People who have little or no control over their actions and emotions have somewhere to turn. Religion provides a framework which
keeps folks in a nice regimen- passing the time until they feed worms.
It is a delightful story, not unlike Dracula. Drink my blood and you will live forever.

Scriptures? What, you'd be able to write an account of the roaring 20's from hearsay and it would be accurate? Doubt it. Same for the writers of the Bible.
I've heard it's good reading. I'm not into fiction though. Don't have one around. Voltaire, now that's good reading.

Hey, we are so off-topic now that Michael is going to have to create another string for us. As well, I'm not going to learn anything from die-hard Christians. It's like discussing auto-mechanics with your 5 year-old nephew
who is into Sponge Bob. "But Sponge Bob lives under the water and has 74 holes in his body - he doesn't need a car". Shut up Timmy, just hand me the wrench.

Bye all!

Yavor

Michael-

Here is my take on Jesus and his dad:

Did Jesus exist? Yes. Was he God's son? No. Who was he? An alien.
At about the year 0, some extraterrestrials were cruising by and checked out earth. They thought.."Wow, this young culture is really screwing up..so much suffering". "Should we go down there and set them straight?" "We could scare the crap out of them, set down some rules and then go home". "Our mission was done early on Xanax 7, why not do some good and we can still get back in time"? "It's the least we owe them".

So, ignoring the "prime directive" (not to mess with other civilizations), they go about getting Xymox (Jesus' real name) into Mary with in-vitro and the rest is history. Some years later, Xymox's civilization kills themselves off.
(they are not coming back- we are stranded)

OK, the names have been changed to protect the innocent, but the story is true. How could this tale be true? Think of it, every religion on earth says that "we will return to - up there- in the sky- Nirvana, Heaven, Valhalla". They are coming back for us. Why? Because they created us. Yes, Evolution and Creationism are both true. Things evolve and adapt, but the highest form of evolved life on this planet is the ape. An advanced life form came along and mixed their DNA with the Apes and came out with us. You have Apes, then a big "gap", then self -aware bi-peds with a serious logistical dilemma. "How the hell did we get here - and what are we doing here"? We are plagued with the notion that something is wrong. The story of creation is the experiment of the blending of Aliens with Apes. The curse of "self-awareness" in the garden of eden is the "gift" of perception of linear time. We know we will die.
Before we had self-awareness, we lived happily in blissful ignorance of our own mortality....like the other animals. Once the aliens saw that we were capable of being mis-behaved, they made sure we had the one thing that would insure our own demise.... consciousness.

Because of this knowledge, we make up all kinds of fanciful stories..religions..to fill this gap in out brains. This religion is the thing that will extinguish us. We are self-terminating.

Now, with modern Physics, we know that linear time does not exist. All things which can happen- which is all combinations of every possible outcome and manifestation of everything - is all happening simultaneously - as if an infinite number of single line vectors through a center singularity. Each vector line is a possible "reality".

"Life" as we know it, is the illusionary perception of one "string" vector of possible reality. In other words, infinity is the reality that another world exists which is exactly the same as ours, except you are a democrat. That's how many times the dice have been rolled. That's how many realities there are.

So, back to the story of this hippie guy and his toga'd dad in the clouds. They speak in some pre-cursor to Iambic pentameter...they are vengeful yet kind. They know everything that will happen to everybody, yet they give you free will. They created you - in the image of themselves, yet they blame you if you (their creation) mess up. You worship them without even a shred of evidence they exist - and the more things go wrong on earth, the more you praise them (post tsunami, 9-11..etc). It is so pitiful.

Come up with a new God. A corporate guy in a suit...looks like the guy on the Enzyte commercial. He loves money and so should you. He keeps a shit-eating grin and so should you. He power-smites his enemies, and so should you. He sleeps in a zip-lock bag so he is fresh in the morning. That's closer to what Baptists believe than the message of Jesus. Realize, if Jesus came back, the Baptists would turn him over to the feds to be sent to Gitmo. He is just the kind of person they hate. He probably smelled like garlic.

Jesus is just the kind of guy that loves democrats. He'd be a far-left liberal. He is an MLK, Ghandi, Bobby Kennedy type. He is the kind of guy that the power-establishment kills. I agree with him totally.

Glad that southern Protestantism is the kind of practice that takes up 30% of your week in useless activity. Between church, NASCAR and football, there is no time left to educate of better yourself. You are fully managed. Your mind will never conceive of any other possibilities than what are in that all-inclusive manual. In your spare time you can watch Fox news so you can keep your fear level up. Glad I know what you'all will be doing. You think you need that containment - because without it - you might look at pictures of naked girls or drink some fermented grape juice. You are not capable of running your own life. Give up responsibility for it to toga-clause in the clouds.

I didn't mention the repubs, because they have nothing to do with spirituality. They just use you to stay in office.

Yavor
Cleveland

There just isn't any proof....there is no way to prove Jesus or any of this stuff.
Cal Tech and Lawrence Livermore and the others CAN prove just about every single thing we encounter on, under, or above this Earth....but there is simply no evidence for religion.
Somewhere, long ago and far away, a meteor was infected with self replicating DNA and came skating our way and here we are. Clay impressions on the sea floor mimic self replicating patterns. The sea fan is thought to be the very first "multi-celled" organism...where several different types of single celled "bugs" live in the fans tubes in it's leaves, and work together to harvest nutriends...
this "tube" evolved into our mouths and digestive track....it's simple and elegant when you look at it. Basic, really, and obvious.
I won't rule out a "creation scenario". There may be a "creator", but he is as interested in me personally as I am with the moths fluttering around my front door light. We aren't special, and we have a short time here and EVERYONE is basically wasting this gift.

Wow - if you were to read this post (and all the comments) from the bottom up, one would suspect that this is some liberal hang out.

Janelle-

Ha! Indeed this is starting to look like some LIBERAL blog. Forget those lies above, just remember:

Jesus was sent here to die for your sins, the sins you committed before you were here. He created you and knows everything about you and your future, but he gives you free will - just to see what happens. If you (his creation) don't bow to him, he is going to send you to a sea of fire for infinity. He just does that to the things he creates that go bad. He isn't going to blame himself, he is perfect. He is all compassionate, but cross him and you'll see vengeance like you never imagined. If you confess all your sins to him (ones you do in this life) you are forgiven. Just remember to confess right before you die....and then just sit there motionless until you stop breathing.

He may have looked like Charlie Daniels, but he is all O'Rielly at heart.
He may have preached "turn the other cheek", but he is really the master of whup-ass. He may have made wine with his first miracle and hung out with prostitutes and street-people, but he was all about fine linen and good cologne (check out those sandals closely- Manola Blonics!). Republicans just used to dress that way back then. The rich guys who ran the government and churches, they were the democrats. They were all about business, money and power. They hated people who championed the poor and defenseless.
They got rid of people like that. Who wouldn't? I know, it's confusing.

OK, I was funnin'. Truth is, the current bunch of Christian religions have corrupted the message of Jesus so far that they are 180 degrees the opposite now. They compete with each other for supremacy. They infiltrate the government for political power (just what the founding fathers were trying to escape). They are allied with the business powers that be. If you look at everything Jesus stood for, this is just what they hate. Compassion for the poor, passiveness, minimalism, love everyone, forgiveness (have you forgiven Clinton?). The religious establishment has attained the level of the golden cow worshipers. It is time for Christ to come back- and topple the organized religions of today. That's going to be your surprise.

Want to know what the un-beatable presidential ticket is going to be in 08'?
Gore - Edwards. It is time for the liberal backlash- and it isn't going to be pleasant. We are so sick of you people and your arrogance.

Yavor
The one true Zog.

PS: remember, it's half the country and the rest of the world -against you.
PSS: Christians worldwide: 15% Atheists: 16%

My simple rebuttal is this to Yavor and Bowman:

As best that the liberals can do is berate those who believe in Christianity by spewing out rhetoric that only they can stomach.

And, as usual, the Christian today is likened to people who go to AA or other support groups, because christians as weak willed individuals who act more like sheep than logical thinking people.

Also, they berate the Bible and Jesus Christ, but of which have been proven historically based in fact. The only thing that the non-christians (aka liberals) is Genesis and Jesus's resurrection. They will say otherwise, but I expect the hate from them to keep spewing, like a ruptured sewer line.

Simply put, anyone who does not act or say or think like they do are deserving of ridicule. Note how they state we have "infiltrated" government, like we are some sort of covert operation.

Yavor writes:
"Gore - Edwards. It is time for the liberal backlash- and it isn't going to be pleasant. We are so sick of you people and your arrogance."

I respond by saying that this only shows the mean-spiritedness of the left. They claim to be the party of tolerance, yet they cannot tolerate anyone who does not think like they do.

And logic? When did the liberal left ever stand on logic? They are more concerned with their own selfish wants and passions that the concept of self-control and morals only slows them down as they rush to grab and stash away more stuff for themselves.

Please don't keep posting your garbage by calling people like me idiots, robots, and illogicals. It gets tiring.

Now, as for the Global Warming thing (that IS what this whole site was supposed to be about, until "they" decided that it all of the wolrld's problems were at the feet of conservatives, christians, and Republicatns), I submit a link to the Wall Street Journal Opinion Journal page.

http://www.opinionjournal.com/diary/?id=110009804

It proves my point about the hypocisy of those (or, at least the biggest mouthpiece) who claim the destructive power of global warming. It seems the media is starting to think twice about the whole issue. Could it be they don't want to wake up one morning, only to realize that they have egg on their face?

Michael A. Davis
p.s.- I am still praying for you liberal bloggers.

Mr. Davis,
I have an invisible powder to sell you. It comes in a can that is seemingly empty if you peel the lid off. It is called "Everything Better Powder". I give it to you for free because I think everything is better with it and I want you to spend your time, treasure, and effort using and spreading the word of it instead of your normal sober pursuits. (I may just want to waste your time...I'll go catch the tasty fish and fornicate in a silk tent while you waste your time with my
"Everything Better Powder".)
Here is how it works....your steak taste ok, especially if it is a KC blue stamp
T-Bone....however...if you shake a little "Everything Better Powder" on it suddenly it tastes tremendous...like the buttered beef your folks bought you on graduation night....folllow? OK, your computer is glitching a little and running just perceptably slower....ah ha, shake a little "Everything Better Powder" and it "seems" to be more stable and running faster. Are you beginning to BELIEVE? The engine in your Mucilageo Nazalle seems to have lost a little pep? Just a slight dash of "Everything Better Powder" and it hums like a turbine again. Follow? Now you want to tell your friends about
"Everything Better Powder"...and, and gather in groups to compare notes on
"Everything Better Powder", and elect officials that will ensure tax free status for factories that make "Everything Better Powder" so you and those LIKE YOU have a constant and expanding supply.
Get it? The can is empty. It's all in your head.

Bowman - you are pathetic scum. You scream for tolerance, yet you have none at all. You lack faith, wisdom and most of all....character.

Get a life pal. Life is more than the nine to five, well maybe not for you.

Dear Bowman,

I truly feel sorry for you. I mean, the best you can come up with is "everything Better Powder"? You are really letting me down. Come on, now. You can do better than that.

But again, it is the same liberal mumbo jumbo. Just mix in a little witty analogy, then finish it with some Marxist/Communist garbage and you have a response that does nothing but make me wonder what you do all day.

Again, you do not wish to talk about Global Warming. You have taken such a solid stand in you mind that it is true that it is no longer up for discussion, so you take this blog's space to ridicule Christians and conservatives and Republicans while AGAIN giving no data, no links to data, no tangible argumentation.

I really do hope you respond again. Your whole post teems with dread, fear, and anger. Please tell that this is not how you live your life. I, on the other hand, enjoy life and celebrate each day that God gives me.


Your friend in Jesus Christ,

Michael A. Davis.

P.S.- I am still praying for you and Yavor and here is another link:

http://www.ourcivilisation.com/aginatur/prog1.h...

Global warming? Mobile Gloming. Total Bowling. Oval mowing.

Bowman- what say dude? This duality is way beyond rational discussion ehh?
As if one could talk to people who worship super-heros (and are over 5 years old) rationally. There is truly nothing that could be said to bring light into the closed and dark room of faith. It's like telling Amway members - "you will never get the cabin cruiser and fur coat". You may as well have said "I am a vectron from blixoland and I'm here to take your fingernails". They look at you blindly as they scan their brains for one-line retorts they heard on Limbaugh. There is no thought actually happening. That's why they all have that possessed-blank Enzyte guy stare.

Their minds have been totally programmed with comebacks for every possible argument. In fact, that is primarily what is preached in Church these days. "How to defend the irrational 101". Don't get enough? Listen to AM hate radio. It's 24/7. We finally have our own Radio Moscow too. It's called Fox news.

Luckily, the mix of conservative ideology and christian values is a mental conundrum time-bomb. It is about as stable as salad dressing. Stand back and watch it de-laminate in the next 20 months.

Global warming? It is so obvious to any trained scientist. Over 300 peer-to-peer scientific articles in publications such as Nature support
carbon dioxide levels corresponding to rises in global temperature.
There is no question among real scientists. The question is how to get the un-educated public to support ignoring this hard data and letting the government act as if it doesn't exist. This is the goal of the corporate and administration dis-information campaign. Why? So these industries which they personally make money from can continue to garner obscene profits at the expense of public health and potential disaster. Their goal is to place doubt...enough doubt so that ignoring Kyoto and killing any restrictions which might impact profit margins for their own vested interests - the Houston energy industry - seem reasonable. Their propaganda-trained lackies regurgitate the exact dis-information dispensed on Fox and AM hate radio.

Carl Rove knows how to manipulate the un-educated and hateful. He panders to the lowest level of human behavior and it always works.
Scare them and appeal to their greed and arrogance. We may have I-pods, but we are still animals. The republican intelligencia who promulgate this stew of hate, arrogance and greed are themselves throttled by the power of controlling millions of devotees who would sanction anything in their name.

You think university Professors (the main source of global warming data) stand to benefit from global warming? If bloated government is the negative result of believing global warming data, then how come this current administration isn't cashing in on it? They are the kings of bloated government no-bid contracts. Oh, I forgot, they represent the oil industry.
As soon as they can get into the cash stream of ethanol, bio-diesel and CO2 remediation, global warming will be an accepted fact. It's about the money stupid. Sad thing is, they have a bunch of trained ideologs ready to cross any line and smash any constitutional right to keep their cashflow coming.
Hats off to the best thieves in American history.

Cynical? No, Hopeful. Hopeful that this system, which is the best model so far, will self-correct before it implodes. Hopeful that truth and justice will prevail over greed and corruption. Hopeful that the truly good people of the USA will step forward and say -Enough. Hopeful that the old WWII teeth-grinders, who taught the young ideologs to hate and swagger like Hitler youth - will die off with their old and obsolete ideas. Hopeful that America will learn to live in the adult world of nations- That we will come out of our adolescence without driving into a tree. Hopeful that our cock-suredness won't make us go through some terrible correction, so that we might learn that it is better to think and then act. Hopeful that we will have our values re-adjusted without having to suffer terribly as most other nations have done. It is unlikely that we will be this lucky. We are in fact, not God's chosen country.

Yavor

PS: "Dear God, I'm an American. What are you?" Timmy- Third Grade

Dear Yavor,

To save yourself from further embarrassment, please do us all a favor and just stop. With each posting that you put up, you only show your own hate. You ramble on with not much more than mindless prattle and little solid evidence to back up your remarks.

You belittle religion, claim that the oil industry is running everything, Republicans are power hungry loonies and President Bush is an idiot.

Do you have any idea how stale your ramblings are? The fact is, the left has never gotten over President Bush winning in 2000 and 2004. Your seething anger for him blinds you to all else. If President Bush is for something, then you are against it. If he is against something, then you are for it. You call us mindless followers, yet you fail to look in the mirror and take a hard look at yourself. What keeps the left going is hate.

It must be a very lonely world you must live in.

Now, as for me, I am like my life. I love my wife and two kids, drive an SUV and go to church on Sundays and Wednesdays. Also, I am working towards teaching at a local college here, and will then continue on for my Phd.

But wait a minute! If I am a christian, how can I possibly have the intellectual capacity to ascertain a Masters degree? Who could have "thunk it?" If I were to believe the propaganda that the left spews, I shouldn't even be able to walk and chew gum the same time. I must be an over-achiever and not know it...


Now, on to the argument of global warming. Please follow this link:

http://www.longmontfyi.com/Local-Story.asp?ID=1...

It is a fascinating read. Apparently, kids held a 'mock court' to rule on global warming. Their conclusion? It is not man made. Wow. Kids can see through the "Al Bore....er I mean Al Gore" effect.

Sincerely, your friend in Christ,

Michael A. Davis

PS- I am still praying for you and still waiting to see some links and solid debate....

Well, it's time to tell the truth. Yavor is a synthetic personality.

Michael- this wasn't want it seemed to be. I'm a student in sociology and criminal justice at University of Arkansas in Fayetteville. I'm writing a paper on the social and political effects of Blogs. It is actually a collaboration between several students - working in teams. We posted to several blogs and charted reaction to "sympathetic" and "counter" postings. We created personality profiles and email accounts for our synthetic bloggers. "Yavor's" postings were actually co-written by my team. It wasn't easy to make it seem like it came from the same person/mind. It was challenging and pretty hilarious at times. We didn't get many responses to Yavor's postings here, but thanks for yours. We did get some useful data and will complete our research paper shortly. Sorry if we raised some blood pressure! Blogging is a new internet application which holds real promise. It's anonymity and immediacy are unique. It has provided us a great tool for studying human behavior.

Take care and best wishes in your masters degree / Thesis.

Ron Nagley U of A

PS: Yavor is a dog name in Hungarian.

Michael-

We chose six different blogs. We had conservative "personalities" in liberal blogs and had "levels of reactiveness" in the created bloggers. I was just surprised that the "Yavor" character didn't get more responses, as this personality was at the highest provocation level . He was:

Highly reactive
Strays off topic
Angry / contentious
long-winded
College Educated (4 year)
Middle-aged
White

There were enough responses to make it valid data for the paper. We got more responses when the character was less provocative. That was one of the eye openers.

In any case, thanks for the use of your blog and best wishes.
I'll post a link to the paper when it's finished. As moderator you
might gain some interesting insight into the the human mind as
it pertains to the blogisphere.

Ron

Ron,

I must admit it was rather interesting. I must admit that in the beginning, I was a little bit annoyed by the postings of Yavor, I found that later on as more postings were generated, the less offended I actually became.

I found myself becoming more conscientious of how to respond. I found great delight in carefully studying what was posted and responded to those statements that were not cohesive with way of thinking.

In all actuality, I found myself waiting for the next posting, so I could articulately critique the next postings. But, as in all things that are temporal, they must end.

Michael A. Davis

BTW, I do not fear debate, so I have been known to post on several sites. I am not fearful to let my viewpoints be known. I find it very exhilarating.

Ron writes:

"There were enough responses to make it valid data for the paper. We got more responses when the character was less provocative. That was one of the eye openers."

I have to respond to this statement. I could have already told you that this would happen. Just like in real, live encounters with people, debate is always more enjoyable when hostility is left at a minimum. People do not like confrontation, especially when there is the realization that they are going to be demeaned for what they say.

The more enjoyable a conversation, the longer the conversation lasts. And it is no different on blogs. It is a classic example of the 'fight or flight' principle. And since a person can simply disappear into the web without fear or reprisal, that it what most do. They do not need to fight. They simply go somewhere else where their viewpoints are more acceptable.

Granted, there are some who thoroughly enjoy a good debate (like myself) and have trouble backing down when insipid statements are posted (ok, maybe insipid is a little strong-heh).

I hope you get an A on your research. I could have given you an A+, but you ended the blog debate too soon. I was just getting warmed up....... ;)

Michael A. Davis

P.S.---I am still praying for you.....

I have to admit that I am undecided on the issue of whether or not global warming is a real problem. I'm keeping an open mind and watching/reading what I can find on the subject. I just picked up a copy of An Inconvenient Truth. That whole open mind thing, ya know...

I mean, who can argue with the man who invented the internet?! ;)

Have a great day.

To both Michaels-

Thanks again guys. It was only because of the anonymity and way that blogs
work that this idea became interesting. We luckily had an atheist and a few democrats in the group so it wasn't so difficult to "fab up" Yavor. I'm a conservative so I had more input on our other creations.

You are totally right about the fight-or-flight principle. These are the kind of things we are trying to learn here. The Web offers so many new forums for communication- and so many new possibilities for inappropriate/asocial behavior. It also has so much promise. It is just beginning to have it's impact on society.

You can pray for me, but I'm already saved and have played for years in our Praise Band at Church. Hey, everybody needs prayers!

So take care and hope we didn't offend too much!

Ron

Something you need to realize is the fact that Global Warming, like Islam, Christianity, or Catholicism, is a religion. It is more like Islam than the other two, so you should probably be protecting your neck, they'll be coming after you with the long knives.

I'm still waiting for a debate about Global warming.......waiting Al....I'm waiting.


Cheers!

Has anyone else noticed this?!?!?!

First let me state that I believe that global warming is real!! What I don't believe is that it is a major catastrophy and that it is truely cyclical. That there is very little man can do to impact the greenhouse gasses that the earth creates on its own without the assistance of man. The increase in volcanic activity both on land and suboceanic procudes vast amounts. The earth is in a phase of polar shift whereby the north and south poles at some point in the distant future will flip, as it has so many time in eons past. There are spots on unusual magnetic activity occuring all over the planet. As a result of this pending shift, the suns rays are penetrating more to heat the earth. Then there is solar activity itself. See: http://www.agu.org/pubs/crossref/2007/2006GL028...

I live in the north east, New Jersey specifically.
I have noticed that global warming has caused extended summer like weather, delaying the biological process of trees turning colors and losing their leaves. I still as of at least the middle of November, have seen trees that are STILL green. A month earlier we would have been crackling through the dried up leaves as we go Trick-or-treating! If my knowledge of botanics is correct, as long as the leaves are green, Mother Natures plants are still converting CO2 into O2! Am I wrong???

I firmly believe that the earth is in a natural warming cycle. Perhaps Mother Natures knows for herself that the levels of O2 to CO2 is shifting and on her own is taking action to adjust the balance. We have enjoyed as much as an entire month of trees doing their conversion act. (Can some scientist guestimate what voulme of CO2 has been converted in this extended season?)

Man can never come anywhere near what Mother Nature can do to heel her ailing child. Mom knows best!!!

Don't get me started on the polar ice caps melting and drowning us all. Look at the magnitude of ocean to ice cap ratio. I find it difficult to believe that if ALL the ice melted (I doubt that it all ever will) that we would experieced any more than lowland costal flooding. Gore is an IDIOT!!!!

It was with jocular intrest I read that the Pope sent out a cautionary speech regarding "global warming", saying "beware of dubious ideology" -- That's a big statement-- "dubious ideology" completely encapsulates the global warming fanatic drive.

Look at the tree huggers, PETA, the idiots in the trees in Berkeley -- all driven by "idology" -- operative word "dubious".

You know for an 80 something guy, the Pope is pretty akami (Hawaian word for smart), he gets that this is a politically driven, left wing, scare tactic to try and undermine 1st World economic stability.

So I am very pleased to see the 800 pound theological gorrilla that is the Holy Roman Apostolic and Catholic Church droppin' the hammer on this non issue.

H Capper - is the pope that old? I thought he was in his 60s.

Thanks for sharing

When I was younger, I did believe in global warming, but I've grown since those days. I took a class on Geology last semester, and I found that 90% of what I was told my whole life wasn't exactly the way they were telling me. This world has the power to change. It has the ability to switch the north and south poles whenever it wants. The poles, actually change every 100,000 years or so. That could potentially mean the freezing and warming of waters. The geography of Earth was actually really different a couple of thousand years ago...again, geologists know this stuff based on fossils and rock sediments they've found...most of the United States was inexistent (including my lovely state of Florida and California). Ocean levels have varied over thousands of years, and so has the variety of life. This and all the rest of the information that I learned in that class has really gotten me to challenge "global warming"...at least, in thinking of it as a bad thing. The Earth's temperature's changed a lot during the last 1,000,000 years...what's happening now could be just something that Earth does normally, but doesn't do it very often. On a last note, however, the one thing I can definitely still see eye to eye with environmentalists is that we do need to recycle. Everything else...uh...I think I'll discard.

Which model of SUV was responsible for the global warming of Britain during the Roman period which enabled them to grow grapes?

Hmm...I'm going to start by saying that I used to believe that global warming really was a HUGE problem. Everyone at school told me so. I went to schools where the word global warming was so terrifying that they would--well--get really scared, and if anyone, and I mean ANYONE, dared to say that global warming isn't that much of a problem, people would seriously freak. You just couldn't get away with something like that. No way. I'm in college now, and people are still very much that way, still. But, I've changed. I've changed my beliefs, because I understand something that still many scientists understand as well, and I want to thank my state u. for exposing me to GLY1101 (a Geology class). I really do. I learned a lot about life in the Paleozoic, Mesozoic, and Cenozoic eras. I have learned that by analyzing rocks from back millions of years ago, and we're talking about way before the period of the Dinosaurs here, the Earth changed temperatures and the rhythm of life many, many times. Geologists determine this information analyzing the actual land layers and so forth, and also by analyzing fossils left behind. There have been about 2 ice ages, but there is not that much information about all of them, and many scientists also believe there have been several mini Ice ages in between as well. The Earth also spent many thousands of years as a tropical planet, where about 80-90% of the world was covered in complete water. Again, they've determined this information by analyzing the fossils of creatures left behind. Most of the fossils that have been collected are from sea creatures, very little are from land. There is more known about sea life than land life. I recall looking at the map of the U.S. and how it was back 10,000,000 years ago, and it was completely different. The entire North American continent was actually shifted south, and everything except the central and northern eastern parts was covered by water. What does this all mean? Well, according to academic Geologists, it means that the Earth was hotter than it is today.

So, what the author was providing was essentially information that he and a large group of academic geology professors meant to me that perhaps, global warming is natural. It might just be possible that we may be magnifying it a little more than usual, but it's something that has been going on for billions of years, and thanks to that process, we are here. Maybe the oceans wouldn't have teemed with life like it did if it weren't for this constant change in temperatures. Just like, if it weren't for that meteor, which hit the Earth millions of years ago in the end of the Cretaceous period, which not only wiped away about 75% of all life on earth and started a mass ice age, we wouldn't be here. I have come to believe that it is a normal part of our little planet's way of maintaining itself (and, yes, this is a small planet...).

Thus, I think that we should let mother nature take her course and not interfere, because these are forces that we, as humans, cannot compete with, and for those of you who are still skeptical about the information I have given, this is information that academic scholars, not by partisan groups, like Greenpeace, or news stations, like CNN or Fox News. This is information that Geologists in universities from around the world have analyzed and studied for years and years. Maybe the time has come for us to change. The earth is prepping to bring new forms of life, and we will either have to adapt and evolve along with the change, or we will have to die off. It might sound cruel, but hey, that's the way it is. In the history of earth, there have been numerous organisms that have died off and given life to different organisms. Does this mean that I am encouraging people to NOT take care of this lovely planet we live in? No, by all means, I still do believe it is IMPORTANT to take good care of this planet while we're still here. We should all make sure to throw our trash in our trash cans, plant more trees and flowers, and take care of other organisms as well, because, let's face it: we're here today, but that doesn't guarantee that we'll be here tomorrow. Let's do our best in making our planet beautiful and clean, because it is our home, and like a house, if you don't clean it, it will get dirty. But, what we cannot do is rearrange things in the house, and no, we shouldn't go back to living in the stone ages like Al Gore wants us to. We can lead modern lives without doing that and still keeping our world clean...I am Republican, I do identify myself as a conservative. I don't like Al Gore, I think he's a scam and so are all the Hollywood people (except maybe Leonardo DiCaprio...he seems pretty into the whole green thing, and that's fine...I respect that); the reason is that they're all fake. They're all people who say they are green, but then when the lights and cameras are turned off, they step outside, walk to the parking lot, get into their nice luxury cars and drive off to homes that spend more electricity in an hour than the entire South American continent (exaggeration). Nature has its plans, and it's best not to interfere. It will only bring disastrous results.

The CO2 growth rate over the past decade was about twice as fast as that found in the 1960s. Yet, all four major global temperature tracking outlets (Hadley, NASA's GISS, UAH, RSS) have released updated data. All show that over the past year(2007-2008), global temperatures have dropped precipitously.... an average of .70 degrees Cel.

How is is possible for the carbon dioxide rate to double over a decade and earth's temperature go down? Answer, because man made global warming is a hoax. The earth has warmed some 16 degrees Far. since the last ice age. Most of that warming was before the internal combustion engine or the first goal plant was built. It was not caused by La Nina as some scientists are trying to say now...If that is the case, why was El Nino not part of the warming of the 1990's?

Did the invention of the Model T cause the glaciers to melt that formed the Great Lakes...of course not. So what caused such GIGANTIC glaciers to melt thousands of years ago? Again, the answer is not man...it is natural temperature changes that the have ALWAYS occurred.

One thing these scientists are correct about...the debate is over. The earth has always heated and cooled several degrees. Case Closed.

This just in folks (ticker machine sounds in background) .. turns out that the greatest effect upon earth's temperature swings are caused by the Sun. WHAT???!! How can this be? Just because it's the complete source of our climate?? This sounds like a Neo-Con conspiracy!!
Stand by for further news! (stands to the left) .. .. ..

Ok, this just in! (breaking news flashes across screen) Not only is the sun our BIGGEST cause of , of, well, just about everything, it turns out that our sun cycle is at an 11 year peak and guess what? The normal amount of sunspots are down to almost nothing (it should be peaking). The last time this aberration has occurred in recorded history was the winter years which destroyed Napoleon's armies in Russia. So guess what, there is a very good chance that the earth is about to enter a very COLD period. I for one will be burning fossil fuels as much as I can. I'm gonna try and save the planet!! Of course we could all burn fossil fuels and carbon like crazy and it would have no effect upon the colder climate changes either. The climate is 95%to 98% a NATURAL occurrence and not man made. I think we should take Al Gore (even his name is scary) and throw him into a volcano to appease the Sun.

Out.

America leads the way!! Kyoto my ass .. Though it's not part of the Kyoto accord, the U.S. is actually closer to meeting its requirements than the countries that adopted it.
GREENHOUSE GAS EMISSION INCREASES FROM 1997 TO 2004:

World - 18.0%
Nations in Kyoto acc. - 21.1%
Nations not in Kyoto - 10.0%
U.S. - 6.6%

How bout them apples. Thank you George Bush for being right .. again.

out.

By the way at the last environmental summit a few months ago, the Kyoto protocol was declared a failure.  Flawed from the get go, but no one would admit it.  What a farce. 
George Bush right again.  
Thanks George.

If the Guru of the Greenies, Al Gore were really concerned about "Global Warming" why would he keep a home located in the south that  that consumes In one month more energy than the average American household does in a year. The average bill for electricity and natural gas runs over $2400. In natural gas alone, this property consumes more than 20 times the national average for an American home.

Eco-Freaks have caused this nation to waste time and money reacting to their Doom and Gloom world ending prophesies.  Most of which were lies used to gain increasing control over our Society.   They want to regulate others while continuing the behavior they what others to stop..

Want a list of Eco Freak BS..

MTBE gas additive, Failure, harmful to humans.

Demonized Nuclear Power, stopping all construction of new plants for the
last 3 decades.  The world continues to harness this Energy....

Coal fired generation plants, leaving behind millions of tons of Radioactive ash piles with concentrations of radioactive uranium and thorium.  Not to mention the tons of CO2 they put out to the atmosphere.
(They are now starting to recover the CO2 but what about that ash piles?)
A Nuclear plant would never be allowed to put this kind of radiation out.
Take a Gyger Counter onto a Coal Fired generation site..........

Spotted Owl crap..  come to find out after real scientist looked into it another owl was the culprit in Spotted Owl numbers, meanwhile a whole
industry (Timber) has been ruined and cost thousands of jobs...

Not to long ago Eco-Freaks were blaming Man for a coming "ICE AGE"....
Turns out that a cooling maybe more in line with what is going to happen than warming, no so much by man but our own suns cycles lack of sunspots this go around...

Stopping the extraction of Oil in many areas using misleading ads.  (ANWR) ads are of pristine Mountains and streams when they know full well the area of drilling is on the coastal tundra.  Also ignoring the many pictures of animals thriving amoung the buildings and equipment of Prudhoe Bay..f

Stopping the construction of new oil refineries around America that would be less vulnerable to the extreme weather of the gulf coast. 

All this has caused us to "Take more Interest in Oil Producing countries because Eco-Freaks have painted us in a corner"  We now have to send our kids to help foreign friendly regimes stay in place to access their oil cause we can't use our own....

Eco-Freaks can claim anything they want and do it with urgency and doom and gloom scenarios, to scare our society into allowing further Governmental regulations.  By the time real science checks out their story
the legislative damage has already been done...

I for one will wait and not panic over Global Warming until a clearer picture is presented, taking into account all factors...  We have enough Government in our lives without being herded to more unnecessary regulations and laws....

Al Gore you silly guy, quit hiding behind the name Yavor. I want to be like Mike!!!!

http://soundpolitics.com/public/2008/12/12_days...

This website is a joke, right?

Tell me that you guys just try to out do one another  to see who can make the most outrageous comment.    That's what you do,  right?
It's all a joke.  Nobody is this stupid on purpose.

Did any of you ever go to school beyond the 5th grade?

THE LAST ATTEMPT
How can an economic problem in one country bring a worldwide financial crisis that decimates the financial stability of major industrialized nations, and causes even more cataclysmic conditions in developing or underdeveloped cultures?  It is said to have begun on Wall Street and then spread all over the globe in a matter of weeks. 
“Globalism” – the blurring of national borders and the erasure of national sovereignty – is the precursor of world totalitarianism.  The economic infrastructure is being established as we speak, while the secular superstructure of a “counterfeit animism” is being fashioned to lure the irreligious masses into the newly crafted “trap of the collective.” 
That “counterfeit animism” crept into our lexicon via the pagan pronouncement that “trees have spirits” from the “tree hugging” extreme environmentalists.  Then, it progressed to “New Agers” promoting a brand new “spirituality” whereby Shirley McLane vociferated “I am god.”  Today this “trap of the collective” has donned a “new garb,” once again.  It masquerades back and forth as “global warming” and then as “climate change.”
What tactics or strategies will “the son of perdition,” “the man of lawlessness,” exploit to bring about “this new world order?” Generally known, he will attempt to machinate a one-world “religion,” a one-world “economy,” and a one-world “government.”
 It appears that our Secretary of State, Mrs. Clinton, has already been approached with such a temptation, on Friday, May 1, 2009.  A “request” was made by a man in the audience at a “town hall gathering,” or “press conference,” to the effect,” if” the Obama Administration would consider “global governance” in his approach to policy-making.  Is that the camel’s nose sniffling its way under the “tent of meeting,” or “tabernacle?”
Why did Moses chastise and punish the 23,000 Israelites in the Desert?  While Moses was being given the Ten Commandments by Almighty God on Mount Sinai, the Israelites were carousing and drinking at the foot of the Mount as they forged themselves “a golden calf.”  Many had forgotten the goodness of God and the miracle that had just taken place – the parting of the Red Sea so that they could make their way to freedom.  The sin of idolatry, moral adultery and spiritual desertion, the first manifestation of “the mark of the beast” as prophesied in Revelation – they were worshipping “Baal” rather than their Creator who had already foreordained a plan for their prophesied prosperity.  Today, many Americans are worshipping dinosaur bones and skull bones of dead apes in museums and libraries while they foolhardily deny their Creator and all His blessings.
What will happen to the nation or nations that succumb to the newly crafted “trap of the collective?” Babylon, that “great harlot,” will fall from its height of “counterfeit star.”
In Biblical history, we learn that there were blessings and curses, rain and drought, abundance and famine, prosperity and destitution.  “Curses” are there for a purpose – to serve as a “warning” to the “fool” who says in his heart there is no God.
My fellow Americans, REMEMBER, the true, original and genuine basis and foundation for our Union.  Know the Founders’ deepest sentiments regarding “the causes that impel them to the separation.”
You are blessed with free will.  Be careful how you “invest” your inner-being individual energies.  Be careful how you “invest” our “national energies.”   By now, historically, we have a good understanding of the reasons why we fought in World War II.  Do you have such certainty in the “causes” for which you “fight?”
Our elected public officials are accountable to us, WE, THE PEOPLE.  As we face Eternity, they are ultimately responsible and accountable to Almighty God for how they utilize our common electoral will.
Be careful to watch over America’s sovereignty as a free republic, as a representative democracy and as a light of liberty that has been so brightly shining on the earth for more than two centuries.  Be cautious with” the principle of total immersion” into “global causes” which make us lose sense of the federal principle so carefully and meticulously protected by America’s constitutional Framers – the federal principle is based on the blessings of self-government.
We will recover from the current crisis because we still have a certain amount of “control” over “financial instrumentation operations.”  We are already “engaged” in the world.  We participate in “international relations” and legislate treaties as needed, in accordance with the Supreme Law of the Land, the Constitution of the United States of America.
Here, we have no “Caesar” in the Capital, no “Herod” in the local town – just “neighbors” elected to serve in our stead; “neighbors” who can be recalled or voted out of office.  We don’t have to re-invent the “wheel of government.”  To reach one of these “neighbors,” you don’t need the “international operator.”  REMEMBER THIS.
 For, the blessings of liberty have already been secured to ourselves and our posterity.  We just have to remain faithful to keeping them.
God bless you in Christ Jesus, our Lord and Savior.           Sincerely,         LEO

Let them know you're FED UP!!

http://www.zazzle.com/thelibertytree/gifts