MSNBC Calls Veterans, Senior Citizens, Hockey Moms and Business Owners Hooligans

August 4th, 2009 John Michael Rivera

MSNBC has labeled groups of veterans, senior citizens, hockey moms and business owners showing up at local townhalls to protest the Obama health proposal, as raw hooliganism.

MSNBC feels that protesting against President Obama or any liberal for that matter, and standing up for what you believe in is subversive and should be discouraged whenever possible, which in liberal double talk means all the time.

The Obama administration, demonstrating their insecurity says: “constituents venting personal concerns, about Obama’s health care proposal, at townhall meetings were deemed organized groups of conservatives, manufacturing anger towards the Obama plana hilarious accusation since the conservative right has had no organization for quite some time.”

The Obama administration was not counting on voters disagreeing with President Obama, let alone actually demonstrating their dissent. Obama, it seems, does not have any experience in having to debate or defend his opinions due, in part no doubt, to the paralysis of the Republican Party and their refusal to defend themselves and their beliefs against liberal attacks.

For the uninitiated, liberals deplore debating their positions and beliefs because to debate assumes that you can argue for your ideas rationally, another foreign concept for liberals. This is why liberals avoid debates like the plague or paying federal income tax.

_____________________________________________________

John Michael Rivera is a conservative blogger writing for The Conservative Spotlight a conservative blog. He has a background in political philosophy and lives in a heavily fortified compound in an undisclosed location in Virginia.


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  • Dora
    gosh- now that the shoe is on the other foot,  you are all upset???
    where was your support for those of us who protested the Iraq invasion... oh yeah... we were called "traitors"- "anti-Americans"- "communists"  and those were the nice names.

    you are the same people that said of Watergate: "why all the fuss over a third rate burglary?" 
    Nixon said,  ""When the President does it, that means it is not illegal"
    have any of you noticed the flaw in that statement yet?

    as for your "hooligans"-  your "grass roots dissenters"  (aka "tea baggers"  aka extreme right wing  fringe-ies)
    Go read who RICK SCOTT is.  His background.  What his connection is with the so-called "grass roots" tea baggers/disruptors of the town hall meetings. Staged events meant for You Tube.  Bought and paid for by those lobbyists that you hate so much...or claim to hate. look up who is providing the funding to bus the "grass roots" protesters around to the various town hall meetings...take a look at the memo to "protesters" as to how to be as disruptive as possible so as not to allow the town meeting to take place- to not allow any two-way conversation... how to react if dubba name was mentioned,  how to shout out the speaker...   you know,  those "real Americans" who are so "into democracy"  - worried that their "freedoms"  are being taken away...shouting down anyone who tries to speak... oh,  and catch a glimpse of the signage-  look familiar?  everything including the kitchen sink-  except facts.

    there is no... wait, let me repeat that : NO euthanasia anything proposed in ANY of the suggested health care bills that have come out of ANY committee or promoted by ANYONE. Nothing. 
    secondly:  ever heard of the Hyde Amendment?  2blue, Jackie, all of you idiots... LOOK IT UP.  It has to do with abortion... obviously you are all aware of what the Hyde Amendment says. .. no wait... obviously you are not- hence your stupidity shown here stating what your lunatic fringe friends probably forwarded to you in your email.
    stop making shit up regarding  the health care proposals.   
    third... single payer has been "off the table" for weeks.  yes Obama campaigned on this,  no one has ever said that he did not... however,  failing to achieve this a "public option" was proposed. 
    do you  have any idea what  "option" means?  no, obviously you dont or you wouldnt be drooling all over the place with outrageous statements about "Obamacare".  

    Just once it would be nice if you - any of you - could actually debate the pros and cons of a particular proposed piece of legislation using actual facts.   Just once. 
    Too much to ask of people who refuse to read.
  • 2bluestarmom
    You are ignorant and a fool. Not worth wasting a breath on. But worth ignoring!
  • 2bluestarmom
    By the way, that was for you Dora. We are not here to debate with you. We are here to find ways to save our country. Go to Russia or Venezuela and take the thugs in the White House with you!
  • Karen Woznia
    who is this deranged person, Dora? she real? or just astroturfing around and getting in your face :-)
  • 2bluestarmom
    Ok...I give up! Tried to put the video on here.  Here is a link to the video:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXKOotf3B2k&...
  • Karen Woznia
    A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul
    George Bernard Shaw
    ...or shall we paraphrase and replace  Paul with Dora and her ilk....not that she would know who GB Shaw is (without wiki help :-)
  • aliy
    Hey karen,

    My favorite quote is from the bible. On a Census Tax God told Moses "a rich man shall pay no more, a poor man shall pay no less" Lets see our politicians wrap their heads around THAT! Even in Biblical times they were talking Fair Tax!

    As for the post, it was broght to my attention yesterday that liberal democrats are saying those of us who quote Obama (like the 2003 speech where he said he was FOR a single payer system) are "spreading disinformation". LOVED that quote "disinformation" The definition of Disinformation is "spreading information that is false, doctored, or otherwise fake" How in the WORLD can using Obamas OWN WORDS be FAKED?!
  • Dora
    The Widows Offering
    LUKE 21
    As he looked up, Jesus saw the rich putting their gifts into the temple treasury. He also saw a poor widow put in two very small copper coins. "I tell you the truth," he said, "this poor widow has put in more than all the others. All these people gave their gifts out of their wealth; but she out of her poverty put in all she had to live on."
  • aliy
    And if the poor in our country were REALLY that noble Dora, Id have no problem helping them.

    I only have a problem helping people who wont help themselves. The ones that think because they breathe I am responsible for them. THAT is who I have a problem with.

    However, you missed the point of the post. I was arguing for a flat tax.

    I must say though, its great youre quoting the bible. DS must finally be getting through to you.
  • susanwallace
    Ali.
    Exactly why are you arguing for a flat tax. Are the Rich in your country not rich enough yet.?
    Did my providing you with the current information on income distributionin the US have no effect on your thinking.? "The latest figures on income distribution in the United States show that the top-heavy spread continues to grow. A mere 300,000 people have incomes equal to the total income of the bottom earning half of the entire population. Thats 150 million people. Those 300,000 had incomes 440 times greater than the average income in the United States. The last time the income imbalance was so large was in the 1920s&30s."
  • Dora
    and you missed the point of my post- Jesus was arguing in favor of a progressive tax.
  • ds1
    Dora, Dora, Dora......Why must you misquote scripture like that? In Luke 21, Jesus was NOT arguing in favor of ANY kind of tax! He was making the point that anyone who wanted to follow Him would need to give up EVERYTHING that they held dear! You know, take up your cross and follow Him! Jesus NEVER addressed the tax issue!! As a matter of fact, He didnt have much to say about the government at all. His idea of helping the poor was that the church should be the ones to do that....NOT the government!! Socialsim is NOT a christian value Dora! You continue to misinterpret scripture to support your values! The first rule when interpreting scripture is to look at it "in context" Dora!!
  • John Michael Rivera
    Dora, thank you for your comments. I can see that you put a lot of thought into what you wrote, judging by the length of it. Your thoughts, however, are all over the place.

    Are you suggesting that Rick Scott is behind *all* of the protests going on at local townhall meetings across the country? I think you give Mr. Scott more credit than he deserves. I have not seen or read anything that suggests otherwise.

    You mentioned that the protests were paid for by lobbyists, "Which lobbyists?" And who is paying for the buses to transport all those hooligans Dora? I dont know, do you?

    And since were discussing the protests, what is this memo for disrupting the townhall meetings you mentioned? Can you provide us with more information about that memo/s.

    You also claim that you were belittled when you protested our invasion of Iraq. Who did that that Dora? Was it the mainstream media? I would like to know.

    Dora, if your going to make accusations be able to produce reputable sources that substantiate what youre saying.

    Thats the way to debate issues, not with rants and raves!

    I do want to thank you Dora for taking the time to read my post and commenting on it. And for giving me the opportunity to discuss it with you.

    Being able to intelligently debate issues with people that disagree with me is what makes all the effort to write for blogs worth while, well at least for me anyway!
  • Dora
    John- you can start with this:
    Last night, Rep. Gene Green (D-TX) hosted a rowdy town hall meeting to discuss health care reform. Fox’s local Houston affiliate reporter, Duarte Geraldino, reported that he talked to the participants and found that “some attendees admit they don’t live in the district.” How did they get there? Geraldino noted “an internet campaign” by far right activists urging their allies to attend and heckle Democratic Representatives. Geraldino then aired a clip showing one participant acting disrespectfully towards Rep. Green. “Pay close attention to the man behind the congressman,” Geraldino says in this clip, “he seems to have forgotten the part about respect.”

    More to come.
  • aliy
    And during the stumping for POTUS, Im sure NO ONE from outside the area traveled to see Obama speak right?

    Come on Dora. Why is it OK for your side to rally for a cause, I remember people traveling on planes and busses to get to Crawford TX to protest Bush (and lets not forget all those people who camped with Cindy Sheehan) but that was partiotism because at the time you and all liberals were saying "dissent is the highest form of patriotism" but now, standing up for what we believe, organizing and making a voice heard and letting someone know were dissenting is some form of treason?!
  • Dora
    Aliy- at every single George W. Bush rally- no one but his supporters were allowed . All were screened. Individuals wearing anti-bush T-shirts were removed.
    The protests in Crawford were to draw attention to the Iraq war, the needless deaths, the refusal to allow the coffins to be shown, and the utter arrogance of that administration and that individual. Frankly, if Bush had just stepped outside his front door and spoken with Sheehan- I seriously doubt that anything more would have been made of it.

    I have nothing against protests, Aliy. They are our right. I object to the disruption being caused by "concerned grass-roots "real" Americans" who have no interest in anything other than chaos and disruption. Congressmen are having town meetings to have a discussion with their constituents to help them understand what proposals are afoot, how these would or would not effect them, alternatives, and to answer questions from interested voters. Your "real Americans" are similar to those attending the teabagger events and the McCain/Palin events. The signage, the ignorance, the violence that is encouraged. If you dont see this as dangerous- you have not been paying attention.
  • aliy
    And didnt you vote in someone who swore to CHANGE that? Didnt you vote in someone who said the open dialogue was welcome? You cant say Bush was wrong for quiteing protestors then tell protestors to be quite. Thats what Im talking about. You seem to think these rules and laws YOU fight for dont apply to the rest of us. YOU have the right to protest but I dont. YOU have the right to have your voice be heard, I dont. Its hypocritical Dora.

    OK, And youre saying us "real Americans" (as an insult) are the same ones who attended the tea parties and McCain/Palin events. Thats DEMOCRACY Dora. We have the right to support what candidate we want without being told were traitors to our country.

    We ARE real Americans we dont agree with you or your party but we have just as much right to call ourselves American as you do.

    The ignorance (and arrogance) is coming form YOUR side. Youve got a website to snitch on your neighbors (Can you say Heil Hitler?!) Youre telling everyone that anyone who doesnt agree with Obama is a traitor to their country (Whats next conservative concentration camps?!). Youve had your time to speak your mind, its OUR turn. Get over it. Youre just pissed were taking pages from your "rules for radicals" playbook.

    And PS- As someone with 2 friends and a family member in Iraq and Afgh. Showing me coffins on the news is TACKY AND OFFENSIVE! If thats what you were REALLY protesting for (to show me the dead bodies of my friends and our servicemen) you are truely sick and twisted. Do you also spit on our soldiers when you see them on the street? What a disrespectful thing to protest for.
  • Dora
    http://recessrally.com/

    This site will tell you the corporate sponsors and lobbyists.
    You might need to go to this site in the wee hours because Rachael Maddow just exposed every single one of the individuals behind this.
    The site is flooded - I havent been able to get there for the past half hour.
  • Dora
    Right-Wing Harassment Strategy Against Dems Detailed In Memo: ‘Yell,’ ‘Stand Up And Shout Out,’ ‘Rattle Him’
    This morning, Politico reported that Democratic members of Congress are increasingly being harassed by “angry, sign-carrying mobs and disruptive behavior” at local town halls. For example, in one incident, right-wing protesters surrounded Rep. Tim Bishop (D-NY) and forced police officers to have to escort him to his car for safety.
    This growing phenomenon is often marked by violence and absurdity. Recently, right-wing demonstrators hung Rep. Frank Kratovil (D-MD) in effigy outside of his office. Missing from the reporting of these stories is the fact that much of these protests are coordinated by public relations firms and lobbyists who have a stake in opposing President Obama’s reforms.
    The lobbyist-run groups Americans for Prosperity and FreedomWorks, which orchestrated the anti-Obama tea parties earlier this year, are now pursuing an aggressive strategy to create an image of mass public opposition to health care and clean energy reform. A leaked memo from Bob MacGuffie, a volunteer with the FreedomWorks website Tea Party Patriots, details how members should be infiltrating town halls and harassing Democratic members of Congress:


    – Artificially Inflate Your Numbers: “Spread out in the hall and try to be in the front half. The objective is to put the Rep on the defensive with your questions and follow-up. The Rep should be made to feel that a majority, and if not, a significant portion of at least the audience, opposes the socialist agenda of Washington.”
    – Be Disruptive Early And Often: “You need to rock-the-boat early in the Rep’s presentation, Watch for an opportunity to yell out and challenge the Rep’s statements early.”
    – Try To “Rattle Him,” Not Have An Intelligent Debate: “The goal is to rattle him, get him off his prepared script and agenda. If he says something outrageous, stand up and shout out and sit right back down. Look for these opportunities before he even takes questions.”

    The memo above also resembles the talking points being distributed by FreedomWorks for pushing an anti-health reform assault all summer. Patients United, a front group maintained by Americans for Prosperity, is currently busing people all over the country for more protests against Democratic members. Rep. Pete Sessions (R-TX), chairman of the NRCC, has endorsed the strategy, telling the Politico the days of civil town halls are now “over.”
    Meanwhile, AHIP, the trade group and lobbying juggernaut representing the health insurance industry is sending staffers to monitor town halls and other right-wing front groups are stepping up their ad campaign to smear reform efforts. The strategy for defeating reform — recently outlined by an influential lobbyist to the Hill newspaper as “delay” then “kill” — is becoming apparent. By delaying a vote until after the August recess, lobbyists are now seizing upon recess town halls as opportunities to ambush lawmakers and fool them into believing there is wide opposition to reform.
    .............more to come
  • Dora
    Patients United, a front group of conservative activists, is currently busing people all over the country to protest Democratic town halls. So if you see footage of people disrupting meetings in New Hampshire with thick southern accents, that’s the reason.
  • aliy
    Again, that is our RIGHTS as US citizens. To protest, and to travel to other parts of the country without showing 9 forms of ID and a retina scan. You make it sound like you can ONLY speak your mind if youre in your voting block. Who CARES if they are driving people around. The point is there are enough people willing to GET ON THE BUS.

    If people didnt support this movement, they wouldnt get on the bus.

    If Obama is THAT worried about this why doesnt he call his army of "change" that got him elected to get on a bus and go SUPPORT him? From what we hear everyday an overwhelming MAJORITY of people support him, where are they all? Why cant they organize and come support the bill if they care that much.

    You are just going to have to face facts that there are MORE people against this stupid healthcare crap that are for it. If your "majority" (which by the way was only 52% of the vote) is for healthcare, let them come out and show it. Why doesnt your buddy Rachel Maddow rent a bus to drive liberals around in?!
  • Dora
    Beyond the fake manufactured bussed in protests over things that are not even in ANY proposed legislation regarding health care reform, 
    this isn’t democracy in action. It’s action deliberately aimed at thwarting democracy.
    Dick Army- former House member, now lobbyist - represents huge Dubai groups, AIG, and a number of other lovely people - special interest groups whos only interest is in seeing no health care bill for the specific reason is that it would take money from their pockets... dear Dick is one of the organizers of tea baggers and recess rally disruptors  -  very "grass roots"... uh huh.

    You people insist upon voting against your best interests while you continue to line the pockets of those who screw you.  Its madness.
  • Dora
    "bused"  ^
  • Dora
    FLASHBACK: Fox News urged left-wing hecklers be "Tased" or "beaten to a pulp"
    That sure doesnt sound like the Fox News of today which seems quite impressed by the GOP mini-mobs which have been formed expressly to heckler Democratic politicians who want to discuss health care reform with their constituents at town hall meetings.
    Loudmouths = democracy in action! How dare anyone object?!
    But back in 2007, when anti-war protesters who make up Code Pink, made headlines by disrupting an official event, the Fox News morning team was seriously miffed to put it mildly.
    During a discussion about a Code Pink member heckling Hillary Clinton at a recent event, Fox News host Brian Kilmead said that people who confront politicians are “threatening” and should be Tased or “beaten to a pulp” .

    Code pink was also the subject of one of UCs rants on this site.
    He had a little hissy fit that they were disruptive.  How dare they!

    I have not seen any such stink eye here directed at the mobs that have refused to allow members of congress to address legitimate residents within his district questions regarding health care reform.

    Is this more of the do as I say not as I do philosophy held by you here?
    certainly looks that way now, doesnt it.
  • Dora
    Come on now people-  why is it that you cannot even try to be honest?
  • aliy
    There is NOTHING wrong with making your numbers great and making your voice heard. No matter how Anti-American Dora thinks it is.

    The only reason liberals are saying its Anti-American is because it doesnt agree with them. When it was Bush in office they were great patriots for organizing protests, traveling in busses like gypsies all over the country to show up and protest everything from the war to Bush picking his nose!

    It sucks when the shoes on the other food and people are pissed off enough at YOU to get together and organize huh liberals?

    The only thing I can say about president Obama that might ven be close to a compliment is he sure is good at polarizing an entire country.
  • susanwallace
    An Outsider’s Opinion -
    The latest figures on income distribution in the United States show that the top-heavy spread continues to grow. A mere 300,000 people have incomes equal to the total income of the bottom earning half of the entire population. Thats 150 million people. Those 300,000 had incomes 440 times greater than the average income in the United States. The last time the income imbalance was so large was in the 1920s&30s. In the 40s to 60’s the gaps between wealth and income were lessened thanks to war, the income tax, pro-employee legislation and labor organizations that forced a mild redistribution of the profits. Thats all gone.
    Your constitution intended that there would be one vote for one person. But since money is political power in America the selection of politcal candidates is in the hands of Golden 300,000. They more or less decide who gets on the ballot: Under your present political arrangement the two major-party nominees represent little more than disagreeing factions within the Golden 300,000, and you get to help choose which one is elevated to the ultimate power in the White House.
    Some choice, but that is what you are left with and will continue to be stuck with unless the income gap is chopped down, way down, so that the top people are hauling in only 150 times the average income of the rest of you. Outsiders like myself do not call that democracy and it is certainly not what your founding fathers intended. But you can be certain that any effort to chop it down will be met with huge opposition from the Golden few with millions spent on television adds . It is time that ordinary Americans especially conservatives started asking themselves why they support candidates ,parties and policies be they republican or democrat that continue to enrich the Golden few at their expense.
    The Canadian politician who brought Universal Health Care to Canada over the dead bodies of the Insurance industry and the rich asked Canadians that very same question. He put it this way,“WHY DO THE MICE KEEP VOTING FOR THE CATS”
    Conservatives should stop buying into the Republican cries of shared values ie issues like abortion which they always support and do nothing about after they get elected. These are smoke screens. Americans had better start paying attention to the real issue- HE WHO HAS THE GOLD MAKES THE RULE. And the rules are that the rich have no intention of publicly funding education, health care, energy reform or any other program that will result in the redistribution of income that is so desperately needed if the United States is to remain a functioning democracy. Because issues are so complicated today it is easy for the Golden 300,000 to mount huge televison scare campaigns to make people believe they are on their side protecting their freedom of choice, fighting deficits and defeating that old boondoggle Socialism. But all Americans need do is to keep their eyes on the MONEY.
    In the Health fight ahead while the republicans scream that a government program will cause you to lose your choices please ask yourself if that isn’t exactly what the private insurers having been doing for years. And when the blue dog democrats and the republicans ask who will pay for Health care reform scream in one loud voice the Golden 300,000 –it’s the least they can do.








    The election of Obama defied these realities because the internet allowed him to raise huge amounts of money from millions of small donations from ordinary citizens. But make no mistake the members of the house both republicans and blue dog democrats know full well they will not get on the ballot for re-election if they defy the interests of the Golden 300,000.
  • aliy
    Good post. Very good information in there.

    Let me answer your question. If my current insurance company does something I dont like (as they often do) (loss of choice) I can fight them, or I can buy DIFFERENT insurance. I"m a pretty healthy gal. They are making TONS of money off me and not paying too much out but the yearly blood work. (and I pay a portion of THAT too) But if its the government and only the government and they say "no mamogram for YOU" where then do I go?

    Its not that we dont think medical needs to be fixed, we just want them to FIX, not add fraud to corruption. Right now Medicare is full of fraud and corruption and we want to EXPAND that?

    I was talking with an older woman today who thinks medicare is WONDERFUL and I said "what if they cut $131 billion out off YOUR plan and give me one" she was NOT happy about that but you know what, thats the EXACT bill thats on the table.

    If 30 Million Americans sneaked across the board to Canada and demanded free healthcare with no intention of paying ANYTHING into the system, just wanted you Canadians to pay more in taxes so we dont have too. Would Canada be pissed? Thats the EXACT bill thats on the table. Ive read 698 pages of it. I KNOW whats in there.

    Saying nice things like "you can keep your doctor if you like him" is like telling a child its no big deal they threw a ball through the window. It IS a big deal, its going to be expensive to fix but you dont want the child getting upset. Hes treating us like kids.

    If they put all these restrictions and taxes and rules on small business my boss is going to go "oh, cheaper insurance option, sign my employees up" What smart business owner woudnt do that?! So telling me I can keep my doctor is CRAP and eveyone knows it.
  • susanwallace
    Alyi,
    Let me see if you dont like what your insurer does you can do what? Fight them?
    Exactly how do you fight them? Or you can change insurance companies? Great idea except give or take a minor issue or two the same number of dollars paid in premiums will get you just about the same thing regardless of which insurer you choose. The choice you are talking about doesnt exist. The private insurers have only one motivation and that is to make money, lots and lots of money. The only way they can do that is to charge premiums that will bring in more dollars than the care they provide actually costs.
    In the Canadian system everyone belongs rich or poor . So if there is anything they do not cover that the public thinks they should there is an immediate hue and cry. What our system covers or doesnt cover has never really been an issue. What has been an issue from time to time is WAIT TIMES. This NEVER applies to essential surgeries but only to elective surgeries--things for which someone can wait . But even wait times for elective surgeries are not tolerated by the public for long and when they become an issue the party in power had better fix the problem or they will find themselves out on their ear. Our system is not perfect but the statistics are very clear and no one disputes them. The Canadian Health Care system covers everyone at a much lower cost and with better health outcomes than the for profit system you have in the United States.
    Posters on these blogs talk about Canadians travelling to the US for care. I am sure a few do. Any Canadian who wants to travel to the states for treatment is free to do so. But if our system was not excellent your bloggers would be able to find thousands of stories about rich Canadians going to the states for health care. Not the isolated few they can come up with after extensive research.
    PS. We choose our own doctors and if we dont like the care we are receiving we change doctors.
  • aliy
    Thats Great Susan but understand here in the USA we already have a couple government run medical programs and they are COMPLETE failures. Medicare is full of fraud and in some places you have to travel OVER an hour to find a doctor who will take it! (like MY DAD) VAs, my friend Torey had to travel over 4 hours to find a doctor who would take THAT (since the nearest VA was over 6 hours away) And Indian Reservations, lets not even TALK about what goes on there.

    Were talking about handing our lives over to a bunch of people who are completely self absorbed and will only add corruption to fraud. Youre also forgetting stats like Canada has 4,000 people eligible for transplants, weve got over 90,000 here. Its nice to say Canada can do it cheaper but when you look at the sheer volume of what our government is trying to bite off its stagering! AND they want to include illegals.

    You didnt answer my question about if 3 million Americans came there and wanted you to pay your taxes so they could have free health care without paying in. Would you do it? Would you be willing to let them raise your taxes so I can have medical and not bother to pay into the system for it?

    That is part of this bill. No matter how many liberal say "no sir" it IS. Look it up H.R 676 section 202. The formation of a migrant worker insurance program. PS- for those of you who dont know what Migrant Workers are, its people who have no intention of being here legal just working a farm and sucking off our system.

    And to be quite honest with you Susan, Ive found a LOT of stories about rich people from Canada and England coming here for medical care, its called Medical Tourism and those are the two countries they concentrate on coming here. I dont know what provice youre in up there but the Ontario area (over a 10 year period) spent as much as $300 million a year in what they call "cross boarder medical expenses" basically, youre country paid OUR hospitals money becuase people came here for treatment.
  • susanwallace
    For Ali,
    You are exactly right about the $300 million my province of Ontario spent over ten years on "cross border: medical expenses. This is an amazing positive for our system NOT a negative. When the Ontario government was re-organizing our hospital system to eliminate wait times for surguries they established this program to ensure that no-one in Ontario would have to wait for essential care. If anyone needed surgery Ontario could not provide in a timely manner our provincial government paid for them to get that care in the US.

    Now for your other question. I understand your illegal immigrant problem.
    But you need to understand why you have that problem and who is profiting by it.
    Your illegal immigrants and immigrants on work Visas come to the US for jobs.
    If there were no jobs and their children could not attend your schools they would stop coming and those already in the US would return home. No fence no matter how high will ever keep these people out.
    Currently these immigrants receive care in your emergency rooms which is a very expensive way to deliver care. Their medical care and schooling for their children is paid for by the middle class tax payor. Who benifits?
    Your corporations and other employers who want cheap labour including the rich wanting a supply of cheap maids and gardeners have been allowed to ignore the laws you actually have on your books against hiring undocumented workers. If these laws were enforced the problem would go away. Instead employers have been allowed to profit from;the cheap labour while downloading the costs to the taxpayers. It also allows these employers to treat these workers vary badly and there is nothing they can do about it.
    These workers pay no income tax while at the same time using services they do not pay for..But dont blame them, blame the real culprits --those who employ them.
    Corporate America claims they do the jobs Americans will not do. But Americans would do them if they paid a living wage. The employers claim that the costs for agricultual products would go up for consumers if they had to pay
    a living wage. But isnt that true for any product manufactued or service provided in the US and is that a reason for bringing in immigrants to do every job Americans now do. Where it can be demonstrated that a short term supply of labour is needed to fill an immediate need a guest worker program can bring workers with the employer having to guarantee their return to the home country at the end of their work Visa and pay for their medical care while they are in the country.
    Doing something to provide medial coverage for legal Immigrants workers on short term work Visas seems to me to be a good thing. Does the Bill say who will be paying their premiums? I sure hope it is the employers and not the tax payers. As it stands now those workers just show up at emergency rooms for care and you pay for it.
    In Canada employers who hire illegal workers are heavily fined. Further no child can attend a public school here without proof that they are legally in this country.
    You have a huge immigrant problem and frankly it is one that neither the Democrats or Republicans want to solve because it is not in interests of the rich in your country to do so. The rich get richer and the middleclass and the poor pay for it.
  • aliy
    Ok, Susan, but understand that if we INSURE them without them doing something to become legal and paying into the system, its STILL us paying for them to get this care. Instead of insurance companies getting charged more which translates into higher premiums for me, its going to be collected in a tax of some kind (already suggested is a food tax)

    They were suppose to do something about this fine for illegal workers but theres been nothing really done about it or we wouldnt have 30,000 of them still here undetected.

    It has nothing to do with the rich getting richer, thats a totally moot point in this, this is about healthcare and who the hell is going to pay for illegals. Citizens of the USA dont WANT to pay for them. We want to make THEM pay into the system, whats fair is fair!

    If we all just sit back and say "oh well, the rich need to get richer" were all screwed. What youre seeing here isnt an uprising against YOUR system. Its about the preposal to insure these people who are NOT going to be forced to contribute.

    There is a congress woman running around telling people we are NOT GOING TO INSURE ILLEGALS. That is a bold faced LIE. Its IN THE BILL. Section 202. THAT is what this is about. THAT is what us conservatives are pissing about. Its the bold face lies coming from our reps about the bill. They didnt read it (Conyers said "why read the bill its 1,000 pages, youre not going to understand it") but a LOT of us (including ME) DID read it and DID understand it and we are NOT happy about the stuff burried in there.

    Im not saying a republican can do better, Im saying fix the problems we have before adding corruption to fraud. Can you at least agree to that?
  • aliy
    Did you ever date a guy (girl) who was always worried you would cheat? Did you later break up with them because they cheated on you? Come on now, we ALL have one of those in our past. I think the liberals are acting all paranoid that theres some grassroots evil millionaire in a liar somewhere bussing conservatives around to "get in peoples faces" (little Obama shout out there) because that is EXACTLY what THEY DO.

    Was it NOT Obama who told his followers to get out there, get in peoples faces? See, they are just pissed we took a page from their radical rulebook!
  • Dora
    It was only a matter of time... mob mentality, loaded with misinformation= recipe for violence.
    Police officers were called to calm down an unruly crowd outside a health care reform town hall meeting in downtown Tampa, Florida on Thursday evening, according to local news reports.

    Angry protesters screamed, yelled and banged on windows as officers hurried to guard the entrances to the facility, where U.S. Rep. Kathy Castor was trying to discuss the various health care reform proposals being debated in Congress. One photojournalist said that a fistfight broke out inside the building, reports WTSP.

    Many of the hundreds of protesters said that they had been inspired by a conservative activist group promoted by Fox News host Glenn Beck and some received emails from the county Republican party, according to the St. Petersburg Times:

    Instead, hundreds of vocal critics turned out, many of them saying they had been spurred on through the Tampa 912 activist group promoted by conservative radio and television personality Glenn Beck. Others had received e-mails from the Hillsborough Republican party that urged people to speak out against the plan and offered talking points to challenge supporters.

    The spectacle at the Childrens Board in Ybor City sounded more like a wrestling cage match than a panel discussion on national policy, and it was just the latest example of a health care meeting disrupted by livid protesters.

    The Tampa Tribune reports that some protesters carried racist caricatures of President Obama and added details of more fights and scuffles:

    Several of the protesters signs bore an image of Obama with his face painted as the Joker, an image that drew protests of racism locally when it appeared on a Web site thought to be associated with the Pinellas Republican party.
  • aliy
    Dora, YOUR protestors held pictures of Bush with his face painted as the joker. Whats good for the goose is not racist when done back. This race card is NOT going to work this time.

    Heres ONE picture you liberals made of Bush:

    forbiddenplanet.co.uk/blog/2008/07/a-very-nasty-supervillain/

    And another:

    politicalhumor.about.com/library/images/blbushjoker2.htm

    And finally:

    http://www.freakingnews.com/Joker-Bush-Pictures...

    How can you sit there and act like painting Obama as the Joker is racist when YOUR team did this more than once to Bush and it was all fun and games then?

    Its in poor taste no doubt, that I will give you. I guess you are just really upset the conservatives are stooping to your classless level on this one. But its NOT racist. The race card cant be played when you threw down this image first.
  • AckAck
    Aliy, its not the same for the liberals. They dont see it the way you and I see it. Dora if freaky and I understand that, unless she has a change of heart, theres just no talking with her on any level. No point in it... Now, having said that does not mean we need to lay down and take the crappy rhetoric she spews!
  • aliy
    You know it really irks me that Doras last post is all about the "riot" in Tampa when a black conservative had his FACE BASHED in by union workers (St. Louis) becuase he was handing out "dont tread on me" flags!!! Notice how in Tampa where they were yelling--THATS violence, but this poor man get beat to crap to the point he was in the hosptial and Thats OK. Wheres Obama saying the union guys "acted Stupid"? Wheres Jessie Jackson? Wheres Rev. Wright? Wheres the ACLU? Wheres the NAACP? They kicked his teeth in while calling him the N word and liberals are cool with that. But God forbid we dont let Kathy Castor promote health care lies!
  • AckAck
    Aliy, Obama and the unions are the same. YOU GOTTA REMEMBER WHO WE ARE TALKING ABOUT HERE - REMEMBER CHICAGO? You watch what is already happening and it will only get worse. Large corporations are already being threatened that if they dont use total union labor they wont get the contracts they bid on and they may get shut down completly... When they run out of large corporations, guess who they will target? Everything in this nation will be government run if we dont stop Obama and company.
  • AckAck
    Dora, I hope it get worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse! I hope it gets to where you cant walk down the street without being confronted for your evil ways...
  • Calvin
    Liberals, or rather, Statists, dont like Conservatives having a voice. The more Conservatives fight back against statist schemes, the harder it is for statists to shove their agenda down our throats. We are the majority, now we have to act the part and get these idiots out of our country!
  • Dora
    What idiots, Calvin...be specific. Name some names. Majority of what? Stupidity?

    Who is shoving what?
    If you are talking about health care reform- what specifically bothers you? Do you believe that the status quo is just fine? Are you insured? Are you happy with it? What specific item in which health care reform bill bothers you... there are four presently. The fifth one is still in the Senate finance committee. Now, I am certain that you must have read them all for you to make such statements. One of them, regarding single payer, is over 1,500 pages long. That one has been off the table for several weeks. A dead issue. It also happened to be the shortest bill.
    Its really amazing how you fools, with absolutely nothing between the ears and no interest in improving your lot or have a clue as to the dreadful state of our health care system, or the urgency for the reform of this are the first ones to grab the pitchfork and the ropes for a lynching.

    By the way, dear Calvin, how did your representatives vote last week when a bill was put before them "....whereas we do not endorse socialized medicine... whereas...etc... we hereby vote to end Medicare" ??
    Let me help you out, Calvin... they all voted no. Everyone. Not a single elected representative voted in favor of this. Nobody. From ANY party. Were you sleeping that day- or do you just listen to Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh?
  • AckAck
    Dora, still living the rafters!
  • AckAck
    Ok Liberals - HERE IT IS STRAIGHT FROM THE GREATEST HISTORY BOOK ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH - "THE HOLY BIBLE"

    As the Apostle Paul wrote to believers at Corinth, he described "a great and effectual door" opened to the preaching of the Gospel, but there were "many adversaries" (Cor. 16:9). In spite of great opposition, the Good News of Jesus spread throughout the then known world. It is now spreading throughout this land as a result of our corrupt leaders of this country.

    The same open door stands before us today. Many are longing to hear the message of forgiveness and eternal life through Jesus. Yet, as with Paul, there are many enemies, prejudice against Christians and their message, false religions, physical threats and persecutions, threats from unstabe governments, kooks and reprobates, injustice and immorality and a plethora of other Satanically inspired oppositions attempt to both close the door and keep believers from entering.

    Yet, the door remains open. We have perhaps greater opportunities today to share Jesus than before. So, with that in mind, I open this discussion up to those who would openly oppose Jesus and the Second Coming. Those Athiest and other non-believers that partake of crime, sins and vile deeds in their life. WAKE UP! Its still not too late for you or America...

    ALL CHRISTIAN BROTHERS AND SISTERS ARE ENCOURAGED TO WADE IN!
  • Leslie_H
    AckAck- Ive believed for sometime that there is no such thing as an atheist. What I mean is, if someone told me they didnt believe in gravity I wouldnt get upset because I know they are just foolish. But have you ever noticed the insane anger toward Christians that comes from atheists? I believe its because deep down they know that God is real only they dont want to admit it because their whole world view and lifestyle would have to change. I dont want to convince atheists that Christ is their savior, I just pray that they will accept what they already know is the truth.
  • AckAck
    Leslie H. I have known for many years that God and Godly ways are enemy to the non-believer. I was joined with God through baptism while attending a Missionary Church in Eastern Kentucky many moons ago. So, while growing up and doing the things I did in life, my greatest fear was God. So, I know firsthand what fear God puts in the non-christians life.

    Im sure you have heard the old saying that if an atheist is going over a large cliff in an automobile, he stops being an atheist and yells "Oh God!"

    My point was that I see the christian conservatives standing up and speaking out right now more than I have ever hear or seen them. I can see why, WE ARE TIRED! I am tired and angry and many others are tired and angry of not getting our voice heard in Washington. We never ask much, just hear us... Look at the democrat town hall meetings on the health care project, not a one of them has escaped the grips of the Almighty!

    We all need to join in and let our voices be heard.
  • susanwallace
    I am a Canadian who happened onto this site by mistake. I have posted two comments to which almost no one has replied.
    It seems this blog is only for ranting and raving and not for serious and thoughtful discussion of the issues. I do get the message that many of you feel that both as a group and as individuals that you have almost no say in political matters. This I agree with. But I think you are all dead wrong about the cause.
    If your enemies are the atheists and statists and liberals why then when you sent George Bush to the white house and elected a Republican congress and senate did you not see things go your way.
    Well from this outsiders point of view you have simply identified the wrong enemy. American conservatism depends for it’s very existence on grass roots conservatives like yourselves never making the mental connection that is obvious and self evident everywhere else on the planet. Your interests are not alined with the RICH. The laissez faire capitalism and free markets you support whole heartly has simply led to corporate America and the Super Rich it creates getting almost total control over your political system and your cultural system. So much so that they consistently convince you to act against your own self interests.
    The statists you so decry – (those that believe that economic and and politcial power should be controlled by a central government leaving individuals with relatively little say) exist alright and they are in control. But they are not the socialists or liberals you rail at. They are the very people you support .
    To be blunt your real enemy is the Super Rich be they Democrat or Republican.
    And they have convinced you to abandon equality and economic security at the historical moment when you need them the most. If you are still reading and have not yet grabbed a pie you would like to throw in my face re-read my previous post to understand why what I am saying is undeniable.
    It AIN”t the liberals in control there are practically none of them left in the US.
    The latest figures on income distribution in the United States shows that the top-heavy spread continues to grow. A mere 300,000 people have incomes equal to the total income of the bottom earning half of the entire population. Thats 150 million people. Those 300,000 had incomes 440 times greater than the average income in the United States. The last time the income imbalance was so large was in the 1920s&30s. In the 40s to 60’s the gaps between wealth and income were lessened thanks to war, the income tax, pro-employee legislation and labor organizations that forced a mild redistribution of the profits. Thats all gone.
    Your constitution intended that there would be one vote for one person. But since money is political power in America the selection of politcal candidates is in the hands of Golden 300,000. They more or less decide who gets on the ballot: Under your present political arrangement the two major-party nominees represent little more than disagreeing factions within the Golden 300,000, and you get to help choose which one is elevated to the ultimate power in the White House.
    Some choice, but that is what you are left with and will continue to be stuck with unless the income gap is chopped down, way down, so that the top people are hauling in only 150 times the average income of the rest of you. Outsiders like myself do not call that democracy and it is certainly not what your founding fathers intended. But you can be certain that any effort to chop it down will be met with huge opposition from the Golden few with millions spent on television adds . It is time that ordinary Americans especially conservatives started asking themselves why they support candidates ,parties and policies be they republican or democrat that continue to enrich the Golden few at their expense.
    The Canadian politician who brought Universal Health Care to Canada over the dead bodies of the Insurance industry and the rich asked Canadians that very same question. He put it this way,“WHY DO THE MICE KEEP VOTING FOR THE CATS”
    Conservatives should stop buying into the Republican cries of shared values ie issues like abortion which they always support and do nothing about after they get elected. These are smoke screens. Americans had better start paying attention to the real issue- HE WHO HAS THE GOLD MAKES THE RULE. And the rules are that the rich have no intention of publicly funding education, health care, energy reform or any other program that will result in the redistribution of income that is so desperately needed if the United States is to remain a functioning democracy. Because issues are so complicated today it is easy for the Golden 300,000 to mount huge televison scare campaigns to make people believe they are on their side protecting their freedom of choice, fighting deficits and defeating that old boondoggle Socialism. But all Americans need do is to keep their eyes on the MONEY.
    In the Health fight ahead while the republicans scream that a government program will cause you to lose your choices please ask yourself if that isn’t exactly what the private insurers having been doing for years. And when the blue dog democrats and the republicans ask who will pay for Health care reform scream in one loud voice the Golden 300,000 –it’s the least they can do.
    The election of Obama defied these realities because the internet allowed him to raise huge amounts of money from millions of small donations from ordinary citizens. But make no mistake the members of the house both republicans and blue dog democrats know full well they will not get on the ballot for re-election if they defy the interests of the Golden 300,000.
  • AckAck
    Susan Wallace, I have visited your beautiful country both in the summer months and the winter months. I loved them both.

    Thank you for that great post and for sharing your insight on politics here in the United States of America. I dont know how you feel about our two countries being as close as I think we are but I, for one, have always thought we should be able to visit each other without border conflict. Thats just my thoughts and I am sure I resonate for millions of Americans. I would hope for many Canadians also.

    You are 100% right in your assessment of problems in America. I have always been aware of these problems. I am a senior citizen and since I became mature enough to pay attention to and understand a fraction of the politicial structure in America I have know some of this.

    I am one of those people who always voted, voiced my opinion and tried to lead in areas that I feel I could be effective in. I know about money and the power it gives one. I am equally aware of how politicians fit into the spiral we have been for years and years.I have not given up and I will never give up but we seem to be in an irreversible direction of self destruct! If I were to give you my total assessment of how we are today, I would tell you "WERE SCREWED!"
  • aliy
    Susan, Im a little dissapointed that you think all the talking back and forth you and I have done is "no one is replying" Ive done nothing but answer youre questions and ask my own. Which, by the way, you still havent answered.

    So, here again, Ill ask it.

    If 30 million Americans ran to Canada and asked you to pay higher taxes so we could have free health care, would you just buckle under and do it?

    So far youve answered me with the reason we have so many illegals and told me the rich get richer. But that really doesnt answer the question I asked.

    Would you pay higher taxes so I dont have too and so I can have YOUR healthcare?
  • susanwallace
    aliy,
    I have now read the section you refer to and the rest of the act and there is nothing in the act about covering illegal immigrnats. Section 202 is about tax provisions including how they apply to non-resident aliens----non resident aliens are people who file income tax in the United States because they have earned income in your country and must pay tax on that income. It has nothing to do with illegal immigrants who never file tax returns.
    If you are refering to some other section please post the exact text you are referring to. Otherwise I can only conclude that either you are unable to read or you intentionally intend to lie to people.

    PS A copy of the complete bill is available on-line for anyone who cares to read it.

    Section 202
    1 gross income shall be determined as provided in section
    2 67(e).
    3 ‘‘(e) INFLATION ADJUSTMENTS.—
    4 ‘‘(1) IN GENERAL.—In the case of taxable years
    5 beginning after 2011, the dollar amounts in sub6
    section (a) shall be increased by an amount equal
    7 to—
    8 ‘‘(A) such dollar amount, multiplied by
    9 ‘‘(B) the cost-of-living adjustment deter10
    mined under section 1(f)(3) for the calendar
    11 year in which the taxable year begins, by sub12
    stituting ‘calendar year 2010’ for ‘calendar year
    13 1992’ in subparagraph (B) thereof.
    14 ‘‘(2) ROUNDING.—If any amount as adjusted
    15 under paragraph (1) is not a multiple of $5,000,
    16 such amount shall be rounded to the next lowest
    17 multiple of $5,000.
    18 ‘‘(f) SPECIAL RULES.—
    19 ‘‘(1) NONRESIDENT ALIEN.—In the case of a
    20 nonresident alien individual, only amounts taken
    21 into account in connection with the tax imposed
    22 under section 871(b) shall be taken into account
    23 under this section.
    24 ‘‘(2) CITIZENS AND RESIDENTS LIVING
    25 ABROAD.—The dollar amounts in effect under sub-
    VerDate Nov 24 2008 12:51 Jul 14, 2009 Jkt 0
  • Leslie_H
    AckAck- Amen
  • aliy
    Oh PLEASE let me answer Dora on this one:

    Q: "what specifically bothers you?"
    A: insuring illegals (read section 202 of the bill, its in there. If you are too lazy to scroll through ALL those pages, you can go to Conyers site and theres link DIRECTLY to that section)
    Q:"Do you believe that the status quo is just fine?"--
    A: HELL NO. Medicare, indian UHC and VA hospitals are raught with corruption and fraud and we just dont want that expanded. FIX THAT FIRST. Then try to sell me on joining the misery, thank you.
    Q: "Are you insured?":
    A: Yeah, I have Humana, and they SUCK they denied a mamogram last year for me becuase they dont feel Im old enough to need one. However, I had ever right to go purchase it myself thank you. So my lump was diagnosed and I have to get it re-done in two months, my doctor is desperatley looking for a way to write it so Humana WILL cover it. Why not address the problems with private insurance regulations like THAT first.

    My point: There has been NO give on the side of liberals for any provisions in these bills that would instantly bring conservatives to your side.
    1. make it mandatory for illegals to register to become legal before they are covered.
    2. Reform tort law
    3. change the law that says the hospital MUST provide service no matter an individuals ability to pay. (life threatening emergencies, yes, Ill conceed "ARE YOU LEGAL?" Should be the last question asked so well give you that. Its the hang nail in the ER that were sick of covering.)

    If you were to do just those 3 simple things a bunch of conservatives might jump on the band wagon! But no liberal is willing to conceed to NOT covering illegals, no liberal is willing to conceed to reforming tort law (and more than likely, no republican either) and no one is willing to take off that provision that you HAVE to treat a hang nail at the ER.

    DEBUNK:

    Talking point 1 for liberals (AKA LIE #1) People are being denied insurance for pre-existing conditions.

    You legally cant deny pre-existing conditions (already a law on the books) if someone had insurance for 12 months prior, and if they didnt, they only need to keep it 12 months and its covered. So that argument is OUT THE WINDOW.

    Talking point 2 for liberals (AKA LIE #2) 46 Million uninsured.
    Lets break that down. 30 million illegals, that brings it to 16 million uninsured.
    13 million who are too freaking lazy to go fill out the paperwork for the medicaid they DO qualify for. That bring the total down to 3 million.

    If you came to me and said 3 million people need help. Id have no problem helping them. Meet us 1/2 way Dora, if your side were willing to conceed to some of these points wed get a hell of a lot further in the fixing of health care.

    But as long as you are going to make ME pay taxes for an illegal to be covered....We will never come to a meeting point.
  • JackieM
    Aliy, liberals and democrats have been informed of everything you said. however, as usual, they refuse to acknowledge anything we have said. that is why people are angry. dora will read your post and tomorrow will start the same rants and will continue to spew her hatred for this country and its people. democrats/liberals have gone too far. they deserved to be yelled at because calls/emails have not worked. they dont give a damn about what the American people actually want. they are hell bent on fulfilling their agenda to destroy this country and the people have no say in it apparently until election day.
  • susanwallace
    Jackie;
    Do you listen to yourself? Can you tell me what exactly is the motivation for these liberals democrats or what ever you call them to want to destroy their own country.
  • JackieM
    oh yeah i can tell you! they dont think it is destroying our country. they think "spreading the wealth" is for the benefit of all and it isnt! every move this administration has made has taken more and more of our freedoms away. obama campaigned on transparency but this is the most corrupt administration we have ever had and there is very little transparency. look at their principals. they understand that the deficit is out of control and that they are now the major reason for it but continue to blame Bush. they will ensure our recession lingers longer than necessary because they dont want to implement policies that will actually work. these policies are simple and can be proven throughout history and through simple economics. they refuse to acknowledge them because they promised their base they would stick it to the "rich." i will be the first to criticize my own party because they didnt stand by the republican principals. however, two wrongs dont make a right! liberals/democrats believe in killing babies and support people in our government (one of which is in obamas cabinet) who support late term abortions. then they will swear that it doesnt happen unless the mothers or babys life is in danger. this has been proven false but they dont care and they continue to spew the same garbage! life is not valued by them but selective births are! personal responsibility is also not a priority! the liberals/democrats are trying to destroy everything this country was founded on! Im sick of it!
  • susanwallace
    aliy I repeat
    What you are you are telling people is simply untrue. I have read the section you refer to and the rest of the act and there is nothing in the act about covering illegal immigrnats. Section 202 is about tax provisions including how they apply to non-resident aliens----non resident aliens are people who file income tax in the United States because they have earned income in your country and must pay tax on that income. It has nothing to do with illegal immigrants who never file tax returns.
    If you are refering to some other section please post the exact text you are referring to. Otherwise I can only conclude that either you are unable to read or you intentionally intend to lie to people.

    PS A copy of the complete bill is available on-line for anyone who cares to read it.

    Section 202
    1 gross income shall be determined as provided in section
    2 67(e).
    3 ‘‘(e) INFLATION ADJUSTMENTS.—
    4 ‘‘(1) IN GENERAL.—In the case of taxable years
    5 beginning after 2011, the dollar amounts in sub6
    section (a) shall be increased by an amount equal
    7 to—
    8 ‘‘(A) such dollar amount, multiplied by
    9 ‘‘(B) the cost-of-living adjustment deter10
    mined under section 1(f)(3) for the calendar
    11 year in which the taxable year begins, by sub12
    stituting ‘calendar year 2010’ for ‘calendar year
    13 1992’ in subparagraph (B) thereof.
    14 ‘‘(2) ROUNDING.—If any amount as adjusted
    15 under paragraph (1) is not a multiple of $5,000,
    16 such amount shall be rounded to the next lowest
    17 multiple of $5,000.
    18 ‘‘(f) SPECIAL RULES.—
    19 ‘‘(1) NONRESIDENT ALIEN.—In the case of a
    20 nonresident alien individual, only amounts taken
    21 into account in connection with the tax imposed
    22 under section 871(b) shall be taken into account
    23 under this section.
    24 ‘‘(2) CITIZENS AND RESIDENTS LIVING
    25 ABROAD.—The dollar amounts in effect under sub-
    VerDate Nov 24 2008 12:51 Jul 14, 2009 Jkt 0
  • JackieM
    i dont give a damn about this article. all you have to do is to listen to the damn liberals/democrats and obama. they want to ensure 46MM people. they have also admitted in the interviews that ive seen that illegals are a part of this number. they are damn liberals/democrats for goodness sake. this is what they do. entitlements are what they do best!
  • JackieM
    this bill is like the "stimulus" bill and it can be changed at the last minute so that people wont even realize it! so regardless of what is in the bill now, provisions will be added and rest assured as with the "stimulus," it wont be good for the American people. democrats/liberals proved how dishonest they are and cant be trusted regardless of what they say. the American people are seeing this! This bill will destroy jobs and further hurt this economy. Yeah, the liberals/democrats are fulfilling their agenda of destroying this country!
  • Dora
    Susan- I am impressed that, as someone who is not even a US citizen, you are far more informed than these people here. Jackie admits that she hasnt even read the drafts for any proposals... remember there is NO one BILL yet...NONE. These people glue their faces to the television and avidly listen to air-headed Palin squawk, rant, and rave over something NEVER proposed. Its absolutely nowhere in any proposed legislation... AT ALL. They continue to do this regarding "end of life care" The mention of this has only to do with medicare workers letting medicare recipients know that this is available to them to assist in formulating a "living will" so that family will know their wishes and not be guessing when their time comes.
    These freaks have decided Obama is pushing euthanasia. Apples and oranges yet they see them as one and the same. The absolute ignorance here is astounding. How shameful that these loudmouths are so lazy they cannot just wander over and read the legislation proposed. How shameful that these ignorant people cannot grasp simple concepts and common decency.

    With the continued level of stupidity here and the turning over of the site to bible thumpers, right-wing fringe fanatics, and foul mouthed
    fools, there is no reason for either of us to be here Susan. They will continue to believe the way that they do because they are too ignorant to learn for themselves from the actual source. They depend upon others to interpret for them. They rush to right wing websites for reinforcement even after the "information" has been thoroughly debunked... fools like Bud/Bubba/Bubbles/AckAckBacktoBasics, and any number of other names he has taken here... he continues to believe the "Kenyan Birth Certificate" was real... even though the forger has admitted that hed punked the gullible on the right. Jackie bought it. Shes all over anything she can find that sounds negative on Obama. 2blue as well... Leslie also. Negative, bitching and moaning. You just have to shake your head and walk away, Susan. Honestly, they are just not worth the time. I thank you for your astute input here.
  • JackieM
    I never said I didnt read the bill you moron! by the way, you are the one who comes here to bitch and moan! LOL! it is funny that you acuse others of something you are the queen of!
  • AckAck
    Dora, you would be impressed with a pile of cow turds if they were liberal. Chew on this for awhile:

    Ah, democracy! It never works better than when informed citizens gather in town hall meetings to discuss and debate the issues of the day.

    But, oh, democracy! Its never more damaged than when partisan zealots plot to disrupt town hall meetings in order to prevent any honest debate of the issues.

    And thats exactly whats happening in health care forums held across the nation by members of Congress. Weve seen it in Philadelphia; Austin, Texas; Georgetown, Del.; Salisbury, Md; and other communities. Taking a page right out of a Nazi playbook, organizers bus in professional protestors and arm them with instructions on how to take over meetings, shut down discussion, shout over any pro-health care reform speakers, and then post video of the resulting chaos on YouTube. Its mob rule, pure and simple.

    Having encouraged viewers to show up, sympathetic anchors on Fox News then pretend these are "grassroots" protests springing up spontaneously across the country in opposition to President Obamas plans for health care reform. Nonsense. Theres nothing spontaneous about them. Theyre not grassroots protests, theyre "Astroturf" protests. Just look at whos paying the freight, who shows up and what orders theyre given.

    Funding and direction for the Stalinist-style campaign comes from two conservative, lobbyist-run Washington think tanks: Americans for Prosperity, headed by Tim Phillips, former partner of Ralph Reed in Century Strategies; and FreedomWorks, led by former House Majority Leader Dick Armey. Previously, both organizations funded and orchestrated the so-called "tea parties" staged on April 15. And in many ways, todays town halls are simply a continuation of yesterdays tea parties, with many of the same players and tactics.

    Tea baggers, in fact, have been busy lately. They came out in force on July 20, the 40th anniversary of the Apollo 11 landing, to deny that Neil Armstrong ever walked on the moon. They became overnight "birthers" to deny the authenticity of Obamas birth certificate. And now the same tea bagger/moonie/birther fringe element of the Republican Party is turning out to deny Americans health care reform.

    How do tea baggers know when and where to show up? Easy. Organizers e-mail a list of scheduled congressional town hall meetings nationwide. Pick one near you, or sign up for the bus.

    And how do they know what to do when they get there? Thats easy, too. A leaked memo by Robert MacGuffie originally posted on the FreedomWorks Web site, TeaPartyPatriots.org, spells it out. Rule No. 1: Artificially inflate your numbers. Advises MacGuffie: "Spread out in the hall and try to be in the front half. ... The Representative should be made to feel that a majority, and if not, a significant portion of at least the audience, opposes the socialist agenda of Washington."

    Rule No. 2: Be as disruptive as possible. "You need to rock the boat early in the Reps presentation." Why? Rule No. 3: "The goal is to rattle him, get him off his prepared script and agenda. If he says something outrageous, stand up and shout out and sit right back down. Look for these opportunities before he even takes questions."

    Clearly, the tea baggers goal is not to take part in any debate over health care, but to prevent any debate. And that, I believe, will prove counterproductive.

    The more their disruptive tactics are seen on YouTube, the more these town hall bullies will turn people off. Americans dont like rude, ugly, obnoxious behavior, on the left or the right. Health care is a serious issue, demanding and deserving of serious debate. Turning loose the mob to shut down that debate is not the way to win the hearts and minds of undecided Americans.

    Astroturf protestors have one other problem: While theyre against Obamas plan for health care reform, theyre not for anything else. There is no alternative Republican plan. The only thing they have to offer is the status quo -- which is simply unacceptable. Because the status quo means insurance companies continue to rule: able to deny coverage because of a pre-existing condition, able to limit or drop coverage because of serious illness, and able to raise premiums annually -- thereby bankrupting both families and businesses.

    In the end, the staged town hall protests will hurt the oppositions cause, not help it. Which is why, were I a Republican member of Congress, Id encourage these yahoos to stay home. Were I a Democratic member, Id pay them to show up.

    (Bill Press is host of a nationally syndicated radio show and author of a new book, "Train Wreck: The End of the Conservative Revolution (and Not a Moment Too Soon)." You can hear "The Bill Press Show" at his Web site: billpressshow.com. His email address is: bill@billpress.com.)
  • AckAck
    Dora, I could care less about a "Fucking Birth Certificate" Obama needs to show his! Thats all, no more. I guarantee ALL the other presidents presented theirs. Why do you suppose he wont show his?
  • aliy
    Here is Democrat Conyers explination of the bill:

    http://conyers.house.gov/index.cfm?FuseAction=I...

    You will note in "Who is Eligible" "anyone living in or visitiing" the USA. If you are a tourist, why would you need MY taxes to pay for your medical insurance? That is specificially for illegals. They can call them "visitors" but its illegals.

    And for those of you not paying atttention, were being told no one is in favor of a single payer system but what is that bill ALL about? Single Payer. This one you dont even HAVE to read, its right there in the title "SINGLE PAYER" its a LIE to say thats not the end game of this bill.

    You Susan, can argue and fight and ignore my question as much as you want but the fact remains, were being lied too and I dont like it. I dont care if your country found the cure for cancer, I dont like being lied too.

    Now answer MY question:

    If 30 million Americans came to Canada and wanted YOU to pay higher taxes for US to have health care, would you do it?
  • susanwallace
    Aliy,
    You have told people over and over that you know what you are talking about because you have read the bill. Are you not mortified to find that you have not even been referring to the correct bill. HR 3200.
    There are senaotors and congressmen that have written and introduced many different bills including the Conyers bill which is a National Health Care bill. This bill never even reached the floor of the house or even had any widespread support.
    Before claiming you are being lied to I and rallying against bill HR3200
    I suggest you read it --and report honestly on what it says. If I as a Canadian can locate the correct bill on -line and read it why cant all of the people on this blog do so.
    "It is better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."
  • Dora
    http://www.whitehouse.gov/realitycheck/



    http://www.healthreform.gov/
  • aliy
    Susan, again, Im working my way through the over 1,000 pages, sorry I cant do it as fast as you did.I have a job, family and responsibility other than finding a way to pick a fight with a liberal.

    Ive referenced MANY things that I have already found in HR 3200 if you would read my posts you would save yourself from looking like a fool.

    And Ive noticed STILL no answer. If 30 million Americans ran across the Canadian boarder and said "Were here now, pay more taxes so we can have your insurance" WOULD YOU BE HAPPY ABOUT IT?
  • susanwallace
    Aliy.
    You have commented on lots of things none of which are in the proposed bill. And exactly how can you comment on anything before you have read the bill. If you have found things in the bill to which you object by all means raise your objection and quote the section of the bill to which you object so all can read it.
    That is the basis for informed and reasonable discussion.
    I did give you a complete response regarding your immigrant problem. But since there is nothing in HR3200 which is going to provide ANYTHING to illegal immigrants I fail to understand
    why you keep raising this issue unless it for the purpose of trying to falsly imply that it does.

    Following is a copy of the full explanation that I gave you previously so please stop claiming that I did not answer your question.I was perfectly clear that I would not be happy paying the costs for illegal immigrants.
    THIS IS WHAT I WROTE
    I understand your illegal immigrant problem.
    But you need to understand why you have that problem and who is profiting by it.
    Your illegal immigrants and immigrants on work Visas come to the US for jobs.
    If there were no jobs and their children could not attend your schools they would stop coming and those already in the US would return home. No fence no matter how high will ever keep these people out.
    Currently these immigrants receive care in your emergency rooms which is a very expensive way to deliver care. Their medical care and schooling for their children is paid for by the middle class tax payor. Who benifits?
    Your corporations and other employers who want cheap labour including the rich wanting a supply of cheap maids and gardeners have been allowed to ignore the laws you actually have on your books against hiring undocumented workers. If these laws were enforced the problem would go away. Instead employers have been allowed to profit from;the cheap labour while downloading the costs to the taxpayers. It also allows these employers to treat these workers very badly and there is nothing they can do about it.
    These workers pay no income tax while at the same time using services they do not pay for..But dont blame them, blame the real culprits --those who employ them.
    Corporate America claims they do the jobs Americans will not do. But Americans would do them if they paid a living wage. The employers claim that the costs for agricultual products would go up for consumers if they had to pay
    a living wage. But isnt that true for any product manufactued or service provided in the US and is that a reason for bringing in immigrants to do every job Americans now do. Where it can be demonstrated that a short term supply of labour is needed to fill an immediate need a guest worker program can bring workers with the employer having to guarantee their return to the home country at the end of their work Visa and pay for their medical care while they are in the country.
    Doing something to provide medial coverage for legal Immigrants workers on short term work Visas seems to me to be a good thing. Does the Bill say who will be paying their premiums? I sure hope it is the employers and not the tax payers. As it stands now those workers just show up at emergency rooms for care and you pay for it.
    In Canada employers who hire illegal workers are heavily fined. Further no child can attend a public school here without proof that they are legally in this country.
    You have a huge immigrant problem and frankly it is one that neither the Democrats or Republicans want to solve because it is not in interests of the rich in your country to do so. The rich get richer and the middleclass and the poor pay for it.
  • JackieM
    Susan--you dont have to read the bill (which there are at least three right now--at least two in the congress and one in the senate according to a democratic senator today)! LISTEN TO WHAT OBAMA IS SAYING! obama wants 46 million people insured. his administration has broken this number out and has made it clear that their intent is to cover the 12MM or so illegals that are included in the 46MM number. we are American citizens and pay the taxes so why are you arguing with us on something that is of no concern to you? why are you arguing about issues that we are very familiar with? do you know our government as well as we do? do you know the people within the government as well as we do? do you know the system obama came from and how many of his cronies that were not qualified to do the jobs he appointed them for? do you know where his department of education idiot came from and that he made the place he was over worse than it was before he got there? so now obama gives him a promotion! we know this morons are dishonest and corrupt. as a matter of fact this is the most corrupt administration we have ever had. any American citizen would be stupid to trust these dishonest idiots to create a bill that would be in the peoples best interests, i.e. the stimulus! by the way, jobs are going to be lost as a result of any of these healthcare proposals being passed except for the ones the republicans are working on. but hey, why in the hell would you care about that? you are not the one that will be out of work. LISTEN TO OBAMA when he spoke in his townhall meeting today about how the shortage of medical personnel is a problem now. so where in the hell is he going to get the millions of healthcare professionals to start work on day one of the failed healthcare plan? i would assume you understand how long it takes to get through medical/nursing school so you know that if they pass this bill and it goes into effect next year there will be rationing of healthcare! obama is not qualified to be in his position. it is obvious just by listening to him today that he either is too stupid to understand how busineses operate (he has no business experience) or he doesnt care and wants more jobs to be lost! take your pick!
  • susanwallace
    Can you spell RACIST?
    You dont even hide it well.
  • AckAck
    Hey! I can spell it! RACE-IST. Hows that for a farm boy? YOU CLUCK!
  • susanwallace
    It is the corporations and the rich that really have control of your country. Consider the followin
    Corporations operating on U.S. soil continue seeking permission to import foreign workers even in this terrible economy. In the case of lower-skilled occupations, this importation removes the incentive for businesses to improve the productivity of the jobs and raise wages. Importation of higher-skilled workers tends to lead to discrimination against older American workers and slams the door of opportunity on many American students who otherwise would have a chance at those jobs if the corporations were willing to provide minor re-training. The importation of foreign workers is especially harmful to those Americans who are under-represented in the high-tech field: blacks, Hispanics, and women. But the labor-importing corporations are very well organized and protected by both republicans and democrats.
  • AckAck
    SusanWallace, you dont know diddly crap about what is going on here in the United States. ITS THE FRIGGIN UNIONS AND THEIR DEMANDS ON CORPORATIONS THAT HAS LED TO THIS. How many of the large corporations are either in big trouble or headed in that direction? Many of them. WHY? Because of high wages and high overhead. I PERSONALLY KNOW THIS. Without these "RICH PEOPLE" and "BIG CORPORATIONS" youre so quickly bad mouthing, this country would be like Iraq! Or worse. These companies seek workers from other countries, especially Mexico, because they will work for less than "UNION SCALE."

    Heres the gig. Unions were okay when they first came into play. They were indeed looking out for the worker. Not so anymore. ALL the unions in America are basically ran by the politicians or some form of power coming from Washington. IT IS NOT FOR THE WORKER ANYMORE!

    Politicians learned along time ago that unions had a lot of members and those members had a lot of family members who were "VOTERS" and the grabbed them. Just like before the black man had the right to vote. As soon as that happened every politican in the world grabbed a black man and hugged him. Im not making this stuff up, it is reality.

    WE HAVE TO HAVE THE RICH MAN AND THE PRIVATE OWNED CORPORATIONS TO EXIST HERE IN AMERICA. Without them, were doomed to a different way of life. It pisses me off when I hear someone say, "Lets take the money from the rich and give it to the poor!" Give the poor anymore and the rich wont be rich.
  • aliy
    Thank you Jackie and Ack!

    Ive read LOTS of bills. Do liberals really think 9 of them can prepose universal single payer and the 1 guy who sits in the white house is totally against it?!

    There are TONS of healthcare bills out there everyone wants to put out and I would like to mention Ive also read the AMAs bill which I think is WONDERFUL. Ive read a lot of other peoples ideas that are just great.

    I even like the ideas republicans are throwing out there to try to work with the 1,000 slice roll of toilet paper Obama is pushing. Like apply for an SS number and start paying taxes before we give them insurance. They keep saying no to that provision.

    Just like they did with the provision in cash for clunkers that said it had to be an American car. They took that out two days before a vote too!

    Susan needs to just go home to Canada where she would be pissed if all of US jumped the boarder and made HER pay for OUR healthcare but shes right there saying we all should be paying for illegals here. Just like a liberal, do as I say, not as I do. Its always a good fight when youre telling someone to do it. If its such a great idea Susan, why dont you come down here and pay YOUR money to insure some illegals!?
  • aliy
    And another thing, healthcare is a PRIVILAGE, NOT a RIGHT. We have a RIGHT to vote, we have a RIGHT to bear arms, we have a RIGHT to free speech, NO WHERE in MY constitution is it written that you have a RIGHT to healthcare.

    So, Susan, I will be happy to talk to you once you get a copy of MY CONSTITUTION and show me where it says people in this country have a RIGHT to have ME pay for their healthcare. Until then, Im done talking to a hypocrit.
  • susanwallace
    Please explain why the rich in your country keep getting richer and richer with less than 10% of your population controlling more than 85% of the wealth?
    As to unions --membership in unions has decreased in the US over the last ten years from it height of 39% of hourly and salaried workers
    to 9% today. Your ignorance is appauling your racism is immoral..
  • aliy
    I also submit that Ive at LEAST made it 500 pages into HR3200 (and still working) because I actually sited EXACT verbage from it in "tales from the waiting room". Go check.

    The Problem is that you are reading the bill one way and we are reading it another. When you say "end of life counciling about hospice" that to me sounds like dope you up until you croak, because that is what Hospice IS.

    You read it, I dont even KNOW what you think it means but its GOOD to you? They are specifically refering to a company whos entire business is to keep terminal people comfortable until the pass and you think thats a GOOD thing? Really?
  • AckAck
    Aliy, Ive read as much as I can stand and understand it less now than I did before.

    One thing is happening that I am soooooooo glad that it is happening. Conservatives are coming out and standing up to the democrats. The dems are in charge right now but it is looking bad for them in 2010 dont you think?

    Right now is our chance and every liberal is being negative and calling names because everything is back firing in their faces. Even Obama, his town hall was so rigged it was funny. I mean it was comical!

    Thank you and Jackie for being GREAT AMERICANS... I want to get into one of those town hall meetings. We have one scheduled here in Oklahoma and I will keep you filled in on what happens. You just might see me on UTUBE! LOL
  • JackieM
    Please let me know how it goes. You know I want to hear! The liberals/democrats are acting like whiney children because they are not getting their way. All of the basic lessons we learn from our parents are forgotten quickly by these idiots!
  • susanwallace
    I have never in my entire life met with the level of ignorance Jackie, Aliy and Ack Ack consistenlty display.No facts of any kind will alter their viewpoints. Religion is based on faith but politics and economics requires the use of reason.
    How ACK ACK can believe what she wrote despite the facts on income distribution in your country is beyond all reason
    The latest figures on income distribution in the United States shows that the top-heavy spread continues to grow. A mere 300,000 people have incomes equal to the total income of the bottom earning half of the entire population. Thats 150 million people. Those 300,000 had incomes 440 times greater than the average income in the United States. The last time the income imbalance was so large was in the 1920s&30s.
    Is this the socialism you believe is taking over your country. Is this the corporations
    and rich you are telling me are doing poorly and that is why they need to hire illegals?.
    But now that you have decided to attack me personally and basically tell me to mind my own buisness I will do so.
    So as one of the last free journalists in your country said--Good-night and good luck.
  • JackieM
    it is funny that this idiot comes to this site and apparently doesnt read our posts from last year on that back up everything we say. then she calls us ignorant! what a joke! her lack of business sense astounds me! obama is the same way. i could prove everything we have said but it is just too easy in this case. why cant liberals come to this site with something thought provoking for a change? i get sick and tired of idiot liberals ignoring every fact and asking the same questions over and over again. are they slow learners or just stupid? might i suggest they invest in really good history and economics books. common sense and business cant be taught very well and has to come naturally for a person to be good at them. i guess we know where liberals stand on those two subjects. that is why they are liberals.
  • aliy
    Jackie, shes a CANADIAN. She doesnt know the first thing about whats really going on in this country. And shes spending a LOT of time here trying to tell all us Americans were stupid. Shes not part of the problem, shes a a misguided Obama worshiper from another land. Im ignoring her, Ive tried and tried to talk to her and its just a waste of time and energy.
    She admits she wouldnt like it if Canada made her pay for illegals to have insurance but she expects us to do it with a smile. Hipocrit
  • susanwallace
    No! Not all Americans just you right wing nuts that spread lies and have the nerve to claim that the tenants of Christianity support your biggoted postions.
  • aliy
    Oh, here we go again, "right wing nut" you left out teabagger, birther, and housewife Susan.Youre slipping.
  • 2bluestarmom
    susanwallace may be from canada or may be not. she is a troll and nero-bama supporter who came here with the intent of trying to act like she was sincere and wanted dialogue but her intentions all along (if she is a she) was to show her true colors.

    She is a radical, slick, crafty, and disingenuous to say the least. A sheep in wolves clothing.

    susanwallace, dont let the door hit you on your way out!
  • aliy
    Keep us posted. Ack on your town hall. My reps here in the Orlando area are scared to piss to even have one!
  • JackieM
    Aliy--trying to fix stupid is a lost cause so we shouldnt even try! LOL! thank goodness we are not in that category and God have us the sense we need to see through obamas lies!
  • JackieM
    This administration is just laughable! I was just listening to that moron gibbs. After all the talk of bipartisanship and bring people together, obama is the reason this country is more divided than ever. he is such an idiot! the administration was insistant that the townhall meeting was legitimate and was not screened. LOL! now after watching the freak show yesterday, it was obvious that something was going on because this was not a diverse group asking the really tough questions. so gibbs admits today that tickets for this circus were only sent to the democratic representatives to give out to folks. so how is this bipartisan and representative of the people? i would laugh at the stupidity of this but it is just too sad! i am just thankful that there are people in this country who are not stupid enough to believe obamas lies. obama has a real problem on his hands right now. his track record of lying has caught up with him so smart people dont believe a word he says. therefore, when he has the nerve to stand up in front of a controlled robotic crowd, he will only be heard by the freaks who are stupid enough to support him. all the rest of us are just shaking our heads knowing that as soon as he opens his mouth the lying begins.
  • susanwallace
    Liar liar pants on fire--not only does the house bill not include illegals it specifically states that illegal immigrants cannot get coverage.
    CNN gave the claim that it does a Pants on Fire Award. They showed the exact wording from the bill which I had previouslyalready read.
    The facts wont matter to Jackie any more than it would matter if Obama walked on water.
  • 2bluestarmom
    susanwallce;
    You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your fathers desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.


    4Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in my name, claiming, I am the Christ,[e] and will deceive many. 6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of birth pains.

    9"Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
  • susanwallace
    For 2bluestar mom-can you spell Religious Nutcase.
  • 2bluestarmom
    See what I mean. What sane person, would act like a 5 year old "liar liar pants on fire" This is a liberal socialist. They do this all day, 365 a year!
  • Chris
    2bluestarmom ObamaCare is the best way to go. You get to comment after going here: http://www.WhiteHouse.gov/realitycheck Just make sure NOT to come back with a bible quote! lmao
  • 2bluestarmom
    I am so scared! You think we are worried that you guys are going to "turn us in?"

    We probably have been submitted 1,000 times over. You guys are a vicious group of piranhas and pit bulls. You dont let go once you sink your teeth into your victims.

    You dont get it. You never will.
  • Chris
    Sheer nonsense! The droolers, drunks, and gun toters that showed up at the request of LIEsites like this one were rowdy, ignorant and incapable of civil discourse. I dare Rivera to take me on as a "liberal who deplores debating his position". Make my day, and Ill prove you for the charlatan that you are! You can start it off after you go here: http://www.WhiteHouse.gov/realitycheck
  • susanwallace
    For your information:
    My name is Susan Pamela Wallace. I am seventh generation Canadia. I live in Toronto Canada.
    .I am the mother of two adult children. My son lives in Toronto and is the owner of a small Software Development Co. He says he is the only venture capitalist he knows that supports our left leaning party called The National Democratic Party(NDP); We have three other parties the Liberals, Conservatives and the Block. I myself nornally vote for the liberal party but have on occasion voted Conservative.I have never voted for the NDP. Both of my children graduated from University.They both were required to work every summer to help pay for their university educations.
    I put myself through University. I have two degrees -A -BA. from McMaster University and a graduate degree from other from Florida State USA.--
    I am a retired school elementary school prinicipal and the author of four published childrens
    books and several other publications in the field of education.I have travelled extensively in the US and throughout the world.
    I came to this site by mistake. I came with no hidden agendas. I was intially motivated to post on this site after reading a post by Aliy that made false statements about the Health Care system in Canada..
    I do not understand why it is impossible for you to believe that there are many sincere people in this world that do not think the way you do.




    .
    I
  • 2bluestarmom
    Wow, thats impressive susanwallace......and so, whilst you were putting yourself through school, if your teacher didnt like your reports or gave you a bad grade, did you yell "liar liar pants on fire" to him/her as well? Perhaps you are just going through your second childhood?

    I can only imagine what is in those childrens books you published....if you dont like someone, call them liar liar....go out and pick fights with people in their homes or their websites....rebel against your parents and turn them in if they act fishy...oh, thats if you are in the U.S. of course.
  • AckAck
    The trolls are out! When the going gets rough for the liberals they send in the trolls... These people are nothing more than game playing idiots. ALL OF THEM. I wont respond to anymore of them and their kidish, "Liar, Liar, Pants on fire" politics. LOL. They can all kiss my country ass!
  • Dora
    The "going isnt rough" poor deliberately ignorant AckAck alias Bud alias Bubba alias Back to Basics alias bubbles alias bubble-brain, not for us- you see, we are on the right side of history, the right side of doing the moral thing, the right side of humanitarian efforts, the right side of compassion, and, most importantly, the right side of the law.

    You? You are nothing but a bigoted fear-filled old white man who does not like the idea that the complexion of this country is changing. You cannot accept that the majority of this country elected our president with not just the popular vote, but also with one of the largest electoral margins in recent history. You cannot accept the fact that the overwhelming majority of the country dont have a problem with gays in the military, gay couples, or gays in general. You still wearing polyester suits, Bubba?


    Take note of what is happening to your fellow fool, Glenn Beck- so far, because of his irresponsible statements, he has LOST over 20 national corporate sponsors for his show.
    Your "country ass" is in a sling, buddy boy. Your stupidity and ignorance will be your downfall. You have the ability to learn. inform yourself, yet you prefer to look and sound stupid. Your choice.


    ...and just in case you missed it, Aliy was on tv
    Aliy attends a town hall meeting... watch her in action!!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYlZiWK2Iy8

    see how stupid you are... YET?



    Oh... and this might have been 2blue, or the ever not-so-bright Jackie at this town hall meeting- it seems to be her level of education ...seen on the hand lettered sign:

    NO Pubic Option!

    True story.

    Damn, you people are dumb.
  • AckAck
    OH MY GOD! Dora is out!!! Gee Dora, I sure thought it was nesting season for ding bats... How in the world did you escape? One of your rafters broke or something worse? (I hope!)

    PS
    Dora, you can kiss my country ass to!
  • aliy
    Ack, Dora only comes out when the ashes are on the ground.

    You notice when stuff is happening like earlier this week with the whole liberal revolt against Obama taking out public option (they pissed enough hes now put it BACK IN) and Obama taking out the hospice shoot (which for all we know they put back in at 2am when no one was looking) shes absent to comment.

    She only comes out when she wants to insult and not have to answer any real questions. Did you notice shes more than happy to post a youtube video and say its me. But, when she ran around here posting over and over that "nobody wants to kill grandma" (using Obamas catch phrase) and then he came out and said he would take that out of the bill, she was slient!! No Dora, Hmmm HER leader turned on HER and she just dropped out for a few days until the smoke cleared and people are on something else.

    Shes a master at dodging serious issues. Shes a GREAT name caller, I want to know what liberal school taught her those names, theyre AWESOME. but she sucks at actually addressing whats really going on.
  • AckAck
    Dora La-Whora sitting in a tree,
    P - I - S - S - I - N - G.
    Along came a spider,
    And sat down beside her,
    And frightened Miss Dora,
    Right out of that tree.

    She fell straight down,
    And fell on her head,
    She then layed there,
    Until her face turned red.

    She cursed at the spider,
    You little mother,
    You bug me so bad,
    YOURE ACK ACKS BROTHER!
  • Chris
    Re:Doras link OMG, I liked that utube link so much, it bears repeating. Chris writes: Thursday, August, 20, 2009 11:46 AM
    Well, gollyeeeeeeeeee, Maggie
    "My 80/20% policy is $250.00 a month for the family with no more than $2,500.00 deductable and no more than $4,000.00 a year out of pocket." That sounds like a real good deal for all of us. Can you give us the age and sex of the adults, and number of kids you have on it, and the State it was written along with the Insurance Company? Im sure theres a lot of us would like to shop a plan with low rates like that!
  • Chris
    Doras link here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYlZiWK2Iy8 So, whos going to tell me that our President is a Nazi, and why?
  • Chris
    sausanwallace. You sound like a nice, responsible and middle of the road person. If you wish to read my post above your comment, you might get some idea what its like posting a blog at a Conservative LIEsite. Most have no respect for a contrary opinion, are uneducated and factless. They would read a comic book before a newspaper, and cut n paste lies from others LIEsites, or in the case of 2bluestarmom, from irrelevant biblical passages. You can help dispel the mis and dis information posted here by telling what its really like to be on the Canadian National Health Care system.
  • Chris
    TO the redneck ACKACK (love that name). read my posts, make my day by posting another lie about ObamaCare.
  • Chris
    JackieM. Give us a link that proves that what you said RE:Gibbs only gave tickets out to the Obama Town Halls to Dem Reps to give out to their folks. My Bushchit meter is clicking furiously, and Im ready to flush you through the all gone machine.
  • AckAck
    Chris, I know liberals are natural dumb asses but youre an exception to your breed. Ill say it one more time for you - I DONT READ LIBERAL BULLSHIT! Youre wasting your time here with me...
  • Chris
    AckAck. You make my point that you have no facts, and are afraid to read anything beyond what you already believe. No need to convince me that Im wasting my time with you.
  • AckAck
    Thanks, bye!
  • aliy
    Chris, we have ALL posted MANY times what weve found in the bill. Ive posted page, section and line and liberals STILL say I havent really read it, Im just spitting back what Rush told me. Nothing we do is going to convince you that we actually have fact. If the fact is something you dont like, youre just going to call it a lie.
  • AckAck
    Aliy, notice how liberals stand up and lie through their teeth and when they get caught, it was just a typo, a slip of the words or something? Then they cover up their lies and rhetoric by saying we tell lies. I wonder how many of them will go down with the boat? The boat is sinking you know but thats alright because its "BUSHS FAULT" Not Obamas! Theyre all like athiest, they dont really believe what they say they believe...
  • aliy
    I love when they repeat things Obama said then when Obama retracts he just leaves all his supporters out there in the breeze. Ive never seen people follow someone whos left them out to dry so fanaticly.
  • Chris
    aliy You seem somewhat civil, so Ill ask you to share with me and others here what you claim is a Obama retraction. Also, if you post a link to what the bill really says that youve so vehemently opposed to, I promise to read same, and get back to you. OBTW, Im not an atheist.(sorry to have to correct your spelling). Wink
  • aliy
    I am civil if youre civil back. And I would be happy to pin point stuff in the bill Im against. Im sure I do spell like crap (especailly when Im missing my glasses, I cant see anything Im doing wrong)

    Obama retraction:
    "no bodys trying to kill grandma, its just not in the bill" and "Its not mandatory, its there if you want it" this past weekend he agreed to take out the stuff about mandatory hospice becauase in fact, it WAS in there.

    The basic language of "all citizens and non-us citizens" I dont know how a lawyer might interpurt that but Im seeing covering illegals. Obama said in one of this prime time specials that illegals drain the system so he wants to insure them, but people argue with me that he never said that or he really doesnt mean that.

    Pg 42 says the commission will choose your benefits for you (that takes away my choice)

    pg 58 the governemen will have real time access to your bank accounts for the purpose of collecting premiums and co-pays.

    There is no tort reform so a doctor is going to work for 1/2 the money and have the same liability.

    There is no free education so the doctor is going to work for 1/2 the money and have the same student loan.

    If you change jobs youre going to be put on the public system like it or not. No choice in the matter

    If an employer doenst go with public option they are going to have to pay an 8% tax increase!!!!

    I can go on but thats just an example of a few things I think dont need to be in this bill.

    I will say it again, we dont need a monster, we need someone to adress a specific problem with a specific solution, not give the whole country an enema and start over with a loft pipe dream the CBO says is NOT going to work.
  • Chris
    Re:the most recent AckAck attack. Hey, youre improving, no nasty language in your last post. So, tell me what Ive lied about, or typo error, slip of words, etc..
  • AckAck
    Chris, Im bored as hell thats why I am even bothering to respond to your stupid comments.

    Look around you, ALL of Obamas policies and procedures are falling apart and you liberals dont know how to act. His entire administration comes down to the radical politicians he has around him. NONE of the civilized American people support his agenda anymore. You guys just run around in circles, bumping into each other. There has not been one townhall meeting that has been a success for any of the liberal politicians. Obamas town hall meetings were pre-written and there was so much security at these things, not to mention the left wing news media - THEY WERE STAGED!

    Bottom line, youre screwed if you dont change parties...
  • AckAck
    Chris, COME ON OVER!
  • Chris
    Your chance to make your case about ObamaCare here, after to read it. http;//www.WhiteHouse.gov/realitycheck
  • susanwallace
    Hi Chris its Susan the Canadian.I have not forgotten your request to describe the Canadian system. I apologize for taking so long to respond but I have been incredibly busy. I will do so shortly.
    In the meantime do not let Aliy off the hook to post the sections of the house bill 3200 she claims allows illegal aliens to get coverage and her other false claims.
    Posting line and sections numbers along with preposderous and down right false interuptations of what those lines say IS NOT WHAT I CHALLENGENED HER TO DO.
    I challenged her to POST the section(s) of the bill that support her claims so that readers on this web-site could decide for themselves if her claims are true or false. This would prevent her from simply lifting her information off other conservative web-sites and repeating their false claims.
    If she/he has actually downloaded and read bill 3200 it is very simple for her to copy the section and POST it. Until she does I will continue to call her a LIAR. Discussing anything with her/him is useless if her intention is only to mis-lead by repeating false claims made by others.
  • Chris
    susanwallace:I think the Cons are indoctrinated never to read a link posted by anyone questioning them. However, they have no problem adamantly insisting that any Con LIEsite link is Gospel. So now I challenge them to post me one of their links, so that I can blow it up. Im still waiting. Chuckle.
  • AckAck
    Chris, I dont have to make a case... Just look at it. The liberal democrats are now threatening to make it a one party deal! Even though the majority of the people are against it right now. Tell me where I am wrong. Take a look for yourself, do some reading and watch something besides CNN and MSNBC.
  • Chris
    AckAck, Heres what you dont get, you get real news at CNN and MSNBC, but you go to Faux News for REPORTS, which are not breaking news. You think you have all the facts, but your mind is made up. Post any link you want, and I promise to not only read them, but comments as well. Now, if you want a REAL staged town hall, check this out. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYlZiWK2Iy8
  • AckAck
    Chris, where do you get off that this skit is any different from the one I watch on FOX? Its still Barney being Liberal Barney! He has no morals nor common sense. He is just a typical radical liberal who only wants people on board, never mind anyone having a mind of their own. WHATS UP WITH THIS? Dont make sense!
  • Chris
    AckAck: I didnt know that Faux was running that same video as I posted below about that silly, brain washed woman calling Obama a Nazi. Now, tell me she knew what she was talking about, or that someone didnt put her vacant self into being there.
  • Chris
    AckAck, Id be only too happy to tell you why youre wrong. Just post a link that makes the case that the Dems "are threatening to make it a one party deal". Ta taaaaaaaa
  • AckAck
    Chris, I visit this link when I am in the mood for a good laugh... Are you really that stupid as to believe this liberal backed rhetoric? This crap is put out by move on and company. Its hard to imagine any human being stupid enough to believe that stuff!
  • flyfshr1cd
    AckAck, would you believe the wording of the full bill? I just read a letter to the editor in my local paper claiming that pages 16 and 17 of HR3200 proves that you would not be able to keep the insurance you now have. For your benefit, as well as all others reading this, read those pages and site line and verse that confirms that claim.
  • AckAck
    Chris and Fly, visit this link:

    http://www.wayofthemaster.com

    You will find nothing but good and truth here.
  • aliy
    The link led to nowhere. If you would find it again and repost it Im really interested in OBAMAs idea of "reality" is. I need a good laugh.

    After all hes been telling us "there is no hospice shoot in the bill, no ones trying to kill grandma" but last week agreed to take that out of the bill so Im really interested in what OTHER "reality" hes going to shove down our throats!
  • flyfshr1cd
    Aliy, you repeat lies again about Obamas bill, and I know youve never read it the summary, so here it is again. http://www.WhiteHouse.gov/realitycheck OBTW, the actual bill can be found here, so you get to recite line and verse to make your case AFTER YOU READ IT! http://www.defendyourhealthcare.us/images/BILLS...
  • Leslie_H
    Well, I personally dont trust anything from the White House website, just as Im sure you didnt when Bush was in office (truthfully I didnt trust it then either), but I did look up the bill in its entirety. I know the bill doesnt contain a mandatory switch to the public option, but what is troubling to me is Title 1 section 102 which says that you can keep existing coverage as long as the company doesnt adjust any part of it including price. My insurance company adjusts premiums and copy almost every year. Also what if I didnt have my own private insurance when the program started, but decided later that I wanted it? The bill seems to only provide that option for those who already have insurance. From http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h3200/text
    CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

    SEC. 102. PROTECTING THE CHOICE TO KEEP CURRENT COVERAGE.

    9
    (a) Grandfathered Health Insurance Coverage Defined- Subject to the succeeding provisions of this section, for purposes of establishing acceptable coverage under this division, the term ‘grandfathered health insurance coverage’ means individual health insurance coverage that is offered and in force and effect before the first day of Y1 if the following conditions are met:CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

    3
    (1) LIMITATION ON NEW ENROLLMENT-CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

    80
    (A) IN GENERAL- Except as provided in this paragraph, the individual health insurance issuer offering such coverage does not enroll any individual in such coverage if the first effective date of coverage is on or after the first day of Y1.CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

    (B) DEPENDENT COVERAGE PERMITTED- Subparagraph (A) shall not affect the subsequent enrollment of a dependent of an individual who is covered as of such first day.CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

    9
    (2) LIMITATION ON CHANGES IN TERMS OR CONDITIONS- Subject to paragraph (3) and except as required by law, the issuer does not change any of its terms or conditions, including benefits and cost-sharing, from those in effect as of the day before the first day of Y1.CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

    9
    (3) RESTRICTIONS ON PREMIUM INCREASES- The issuer cannot vary the percentage increase in the premium for a risk group of enrollees in specific grandfathered health insurance coverage without changing the premium for all enrollees in the same risk group at the same rate, as specified by the Commissioner.CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

    (b) Grace Period for Current Employment-based Health Plans-CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

    (1) GRACE PERIOD-CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

    8
    (A) IN GENERAL- The Commissioner shall establish a grace period whereby, for plan years beginning after the end of the 5-year period beginning with Y1, an employment-based health plan in operation as of the day before the first day of Y1 must meet the same requirements as apply to a qualified health benefits plan under section 101, including the essential benefit package requirement under section 121.CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

    (B) EXCEPTION FOR LIMITED BENEFITS PLANS- Subparagraph (A) shall not apply to an employment-based health plan in which the coverage consists only of one or more of the following:CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

    3
    (i) Any coverage described in section 3001(a)(1)(B)(ii)(IV) of division B of the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 (Public Law 111-5).CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

    2
    (ii) Excepted benefits (as defined in section 733(c) of the Employee Retirement Income Security Act of 1974), including coverage under a specified disease or illness policy described in paragraph (3)(A) of such section.CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

    4
    (iii) Such other limited benefits as the Commissioner may specify.CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

    14
    In no case shall an employment-based health plan in which the coverage consists only of one or more of the coverage or benefits described in clauses (i) through (iii) be treated as acceptable coverage under this divisionCommentsClose CommentsPermalink

    (2) TRANSITIONAL TREATMENT AS ACCEPTABLE COVERAGE- During the grace period specified in paragraph (1)(A), an employment-based health plan that is described in such paragraph shall be treated as acceptable coverage under this division.CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

    (c) Limitation on Individual Health Insurance Coverage-CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

    24
    (1) IN GENERAL- Individual health insurance coverage that is not grandfathered health insurance coverage under subsection (a) may only be offered on or after the first day of Y1 as an Exchange-participating health benefits plan.CommentsClose CommentsPermalink

    6
    (2) SEPARATE, EXCEPTED COVERAGE PERMITTED- Excepted benefits (as defined in section 2791(c) of the Public Health Service Act) are not included within the definition of health insurance coverage. Nothing in paragraph (1) shall prevent the offering, other than through the Health Insurance Exchange, of excepted benefits so long as it is offered and priced separately from health insurance coverage.
  • aliy
    Be careful, youre going to be accused of listening to Hannity or Bill OReilly!!! After all us conservatives cant Possibly think for ourselves, were not reading Obamas version of the bill!! Were not informed, dont we listen to the president when he says its good for us? These liberals are getting sad since Acorn started paying people to disrupt conservatives.
  • flyfshr1cd
    Leslie, Congrats on posting pp 16.17 on HR3200 and posting it here for all to read. However, you didnt paste Title 1, Section 102 to make your case about taking your insurance away with a rate increase. However, 9 (3) states clearly that insurers cannot increase rates unless done on a uniform % basis. So not only can you keep what you have, they cant gouge you with a discriminatory increase should you have big claims. Section 24 (1) allows you to apply to a new private plan after the 5 years grace period. OBTW, these are the same type on "nasty mandates" that states like yours have to protect consumers. Read it over again RE: your concerns where Ive indicated, and report back to us that youve been lied to.
  • Chris
    Hooliganism here:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYlZiWK2Iy8
  • AckAck
    Chris, tell me about all the hooligans running in and out of churches, girls kissing girls and boys kissing boys, dressed like PURE IDIOTS? Running all over the US yelling they are offended by the word GOD on money or any other place it might be. Those took the name "GAY" because it sounded GOOD! Hummm... Wonder who got that changed in the dictionary. I know when I just dont know who. OF COURSE I DO! It was you, you little maggot! Or people like you. You dont hear about all this crap on CNN or MSNBC do you? Well, well - wonder why? Oh! I know... THEYRE MAGGOT STATIONS! Darn, anyone should be able to figure that out. I promise though, I didnt have any help on that one, I was able to do it myself.
  • susanwallace
    ,
    Pathetic- CNN is owned by a very large corporation just as Fox News is. Both corporations have only a profit motive.
    Chris I am not coming back to this web-site. I think these people are not just ignorant they are mentally unbalanced and down right dangerous.
  • Chris
    OK, susan. Hope you read my last post about hate. Godspeed.
  • AckAck
    Susan, I dont really know why I am responding to your idiotioc remark. Dont matter how big something is, FACT IS - CNN is a liberal news outlet. ANYTHING they report will be radically liberal biased... GOT IT?
  • Chris
    Hate. Conservatives hate just about anything and anybody who doesnt think like them, look like them, have the same religion, and have the same sexual preferences. How does hate serve anybody? Does it make you feel better? Does it put more love in your heart? What would Jesus say about the hate in your heart? Is that what He taught? You may find out soon. Think about it.
  • amber3
    I hope we get a public option. Here in Australia if you can afford it (make over a certain amount) you are not even eligible for the public healthcare, but if you cant ,you get healthcare automatically. another result is everything is much cheaper, from doctors($30) visits to prescription drugs (literallyfrom 1/2 to 1/10 the price). So if you are young, healthy, and earning good money, its really not worth purchasing health insurance because it affordable without it.
  • Chris
    amber3, Thanks so much for your post, clearly your country shows what health care should be all about.
  • AckAck
    Chris, if you dont know you should read and learn. This clearly isnt about health care. Obama and company could care less about you and me. But, as long as he can gain ground in socalizing this country with people like you, he will. Thats exactly what this is about. Its simply about government take over. Too bad for him, a lot of people are waking up and realizing what is taking place in their own back yards.

    However, a lot of people want the government to be in charge and slowly, little by little its happening. Those people are standing by the thousands with their hands out wanting the government to pay their rent, buy their food, furnish their car, etc. Are you one of those people? You sound like you are.
  • Chris Doyle
    amber3. Thanks for the real truth about government sponsored health care.
  • 2bluestarmom
    Yes, truth. Lets look at "truth" Yall seem to be on the same page. Why is that?

    You are the children of your father the Evil One and it is your pleasure to do his desires. From the first he was a taker of life; and he did not go in the true way because there is no true thing in him. When he says what is false, it is natural to him, for he is false and the father of what is false.

    Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

    And that my friend, is the "truth"
  • flyfshr1cd
    We all want the truth, right? We should know the difference between a opinion, and a lie. Right? So yall tell me about what Palin is quoted about "death Panels", then read the HR3200 bill. Fair enough? http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/stateme...
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