I recently came across your blog and have been reading along. I thought I would leave my first comment. I dont know what to say except that I have enjoyed reading. Nice blog. I will keep visiting this blog very often.

Susan

http://ovarianpain.net

Thank you, Susan.
I appreciate your kind words.

Thank you Susan. Theres me and theres Anti-Aliy, but its nice to see shes being kind also (that wont last, trust me)

Data in a vacuum is useless. How do these things compare to US data?  How available is US data?  Why do these countrys citizens live longer? 

For example:

"The Canadian Medical Association Journal found that 50 people in Ontairo ALONE passed away while waiting on necessary surgery (not just cancer)."
So whats the comparison from US data?  Zero? 

"More than 43,000 operations were canceled between January and September of 2008. that equates to over 1,800 people NOT being treated within 28 days of their original surgery date."
The question is WHY were they canceled? Were they canceled by the patient, by the government?   Did the diagnosis change? Did the need go away?  Whats the comparison to the US?

Good questions.

The only stats I can find on people in the USA passing away while awaiting any kind of surgery are the 8,000 who passed away last year waiting on an organ transplants.

As for Canadas stats on organ transplant death, its higher than ours but we have 90,000 people waiting, they have an average of 4,000 people that qualify in their country and SOS4000 (which is a non profit in Cananda) estimates at least one a day dies.

So, doing the math .08% of OUR waiting pass, and 14% pass there. Does that put anything into perspective of comparision?


The reason for the dealy in 43,000 operations was lack of beds. They were canceled by the hospital because they didnt have the room for the patients, there was no change in diagnosis, the need did NOT go away, they simply didnt have the open beds to put the people in. And to be honest with you. ANY search I run on rescheduling surgeries in America spits up more stories from Canada, UK and Calcutta.

Im sure it does happen but its not for lack of beds, and its not creating so many problems that someones writing articles on it like in other countries. The way I look at it, 1 time does not make news. constantly having that happen, THEN it becomes news.

I had to reschedule my c-section because another girl was breeched and needed one immediatley. So, instead of having my son at 1pm I had him at 7pm. Thats not exactly life threatening had they said "come back next week" it would have been a problem for me, but I had my child with a couple extra hours a pain!

If you have any other questions please feel free to ask.

go ahead, UC- then you will see that it is not I.

never said that you did, UC- 
but Aliy did- read your own site sometime.

1) like you, UC- I dont like being accused of something I did not do.

2) I enjoy life- I dont enjoy stupid people doing and saying stupid things.

3)  I probably read more books in a week than you read in a year.
chill.

Dora, saying it was you was a GUESS. If it wasnt you, fine but the imposter (before suddenly being nice to people) sounded a LOT like you. Trying to use big words, trying to make me look "stupid smart" (you know, someone trying to use big words that has no clue what shes really saying) it just seemed strange that someone would steal my identity and start posting a lot like you do. Youd have assumed the same thing if someone started posting radial conservative views with YOUR name.

Man, my pats head is gone again! Seriously....I cant catch a break with this thing!

I am a Canadian and the mother of an adult child who had cancer five years ago. Through that illness ( now cured) and many others our family has been extremely satisfied with the Canadian Health care system. 
Canadians in general are furious about  the adds on American Television and the statements on Conservative blogs that refuse to acknowlege that Canadians love their Health Care System which  provides universal care 
to all with dramatically lower costs and better outcomes than the American profit based system. 
Of course you can find isolated horror stories to report. How many similar stories could be reported in the US if anyone cared to look. Among your uninsured and underinsured there must be millions of stories of Americans dying and suffering from receiving no medical care at all except on an emergenciy basis.
Canadians like the citizens of almost every Western civilized country consider quality health care a right of every citizen and decry the FOR PROFIT sytem you have in the US.

Susan,
Thank you for this post. Believe me there are americans who can see behind the disinformation and understand that the citizens of our nation are being fed lies to advance the needs of industrial giants.  Here is an eye-opening interview with Wendell Potter, an ex- PR executive from Cigna
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/07312009/watc...

I know you may not have a vested interest (besides that of wanting the right thing to be done) bu I ask you help to keep up the fight against this attack by posting your comments whereever you can, particularly those sites which disagree with your pov.

M

As long as people pay for their own healthcare and there is no public plan, im in agreement with getting costs down.  As long as the taxpayers are not paying for illegals to get healthcare (which we are now), im in agreement with anyone who wants to pay for healthcare to get it!

Susan, How much do you pay in taxes? Just a rough estimate, like 12% of your income? The arguement can be made about how much Canadians hate it, the medical tourism industry sites Canadians and people from UK coming HERE for medical treatments they cant get at home. So someone in your country is miserable.

The point of your system our system is about to be based on is "you can treat all of the people some of the time or some of the people all of the time."

The problem a lot of Americans are asking is "How do you ensure you are in the "some" that get treatment all of the time?" There IS no guarantee, THAT is what we dont like.

Im really glad that you love the health care system up there, there are a lot who do. And I will agree there are people here who have horror stories, hell Im from Florida, you know cutting off the wrong limb is a once a week occurance here! No one is arguing that our system is perfect.

Also,
Out of the 48 million Americans uninsured in this country, there are at least 13 million that think they are too young and healthy to get sick.
There are at least 10-15 million who are just too lazy to fill out the required paperwork for medicare or medicaid. They qualify, they are just too lazy to do it.

There are HOW many illegals that wont be paying in to the system at all? (theres NO provision in the bill that says these illegals have to apply for socials or pay taxes, the way its written, they just suck off the system which theyre doing NOW anyway!)
Once you cut those people out youre left with about 10 million uninsured. And you know the really sad thing. MOST conservatives would totally agree to expand medicare/medicaid to those 10 million. Its when you start saying things like I am suddenly going to be responsible for  paying for some illegal to visit a hosptial that conservatives start going "no way!"
Think about it. If 30 million Americans ran across the boarder to Canada and wanted YOU to float THEM do you think youre country would put up with it? Would YOU yourself be willing to fork over more of your income to support me who is NOT a Canadian tax payer? I dont think so.

Theres also the lack of tort reform, malpractice suits, medicare and medicaid fraud thats rampant, I think if youre going to fix healthcare you should start by FIXING the stuff thats wrong, NOT adding programs that will in turn become fiascos right along with them.
So, as you see, its NOT just the horror stories from your country that go into our decision NOT to support this. Its a BUNCH of other stuff.

And Mike,

Disinformation is something made up. Its false. I know thats the buzz word for liberals this week. Not ONE of the stories was made up. You want to say Im only showing one side of the issue, so be it.But please, dont call me a liar.

Thanks Mike.  These people would never dare look into what Wendell Potter has to say.  Wendell Potter, you see would blow their whole game out of the water.  Wendell Potter used to work for the health insurance industry. 
Every single dollar that the health insurance industry saves through denial of payment on claims goes to their profit and greed.   They are not about patient care.   Not even close. 

You can view Wendel Potters congressional testimony online or read the text.

Ok, lets get one thing straight Dora. NO ONE IS SAYING HEALTHCARE ISNT BROKEN What we ARE saying is THIS Obama-rationed care plan is NOT the answer.

We would like you to FIX the stuff wrong with healthcare before expanding corruption.

Does Obamas plan addres ANYTHING Potter said? No, all it does is expand problems we already have to include people who 1. dont want insurance 2. are too lazy to fill out the paperwork for insurance they DO qualify for and 3. are ILLEGAL.

Medicare is totally messed up there is more fraud and corruption in that one agency than when Al Capone was running Chicago! FIX it. Hell just last month they arrested more than 30 people committing medicare fraud! Are you saying thats not a problem?

There is already a law that says they cant exclude pre-existing conditions (if you have had coverage) if you havent had coverage you can only be excluded for 12 months! so I dont know WHY thats such a big deal to you. Just like you pointed out Hyde, Im pointing out something thats ALREADY A LAW.

And why not make these illegals apply for SS cards and PAY TAXES, Maybe Obama wouldnt be talking about cutting 131 billion from medicaid, taxing food, and STILL having a short fall if he just makes the how many million of THEM pay some taxes too.

I know there are problems with our current system but the answer is not to pile on more corruption. The answer is to address problems we have in existence NOW. Even other countries medical jouranals are laughing because Obama isnt addressing ONE thing that needs to be done to actually control costs. Even THEY know its going to fail!

Aliy

I did not mean to infer you are a liar.  I am saying your data is useless unless you can compare it to existing US.  As you have yet to do so, I assume you dont it.  This calls into question credibility.  You can say these are facts, which may be true, but alone they mean nothing toward proving your argument. 

BTW: I am an independent.

Try going back up and reading the WHOLE big answer I put in there about my research that took me a while because its really, really hard to find stats that just dont exist.

And again, I am NOT engaging in Disinformation, by using that word, which is defined as "false information deliberately and often covertly spread (as by the planting of rumors) in order to influence public opinion or obscure the truth" you did call me a liar.

You are welcome to look up any of the facts in the post, you are welcome to look up any of the other stats I found today. Go right ahead, I didnt make up ONE iota of my information.

You want to question my credibility, go ahead, not ONE of the things I said were false, made up, or rumor. Thank you.

CLOSET DICTATORS

Leftist Democrats often behave like petty dictators caricatured in comic books. Democrats cannot stand lawful dissent or genuine legal opposition to their policies. They are so out of touch with the lot of Americans at the ground level that they imagine conspiracies from the upper echelon of the Republican Party - by accusing Republicans of having orchestrated such groundswell, massive, grassroots opposition to President Obama’s “health-Scarce” and “E-Con-manic” policies. From Washington DC’s Obama “Chicago machine-style” politics, every thing appears to be a “con job” in the mass media and on the Internet. For when there is no provable consent from the American people for alleged legislative agendas, Democrats in Washington DC are only assuming they have legitimacy for implementing them, while pretending they can ignore the will of the American people.

Leftist, socialist-leaning Democrats fantasize unanimous agreement while courting and dispensing socialist thought “with an American flavor” against which they expected there would be no opposition. That is naïve and cynical. Democrats are showing contempt for democratic structures and constitutional due process of law as enshrined and guaranteed in the First Amendment. They fancy they had it “in the bag” with their grandstanding “wordsmith” tactics by which they would “sweep the world off its feet” with feats of oratory. Remember Goebels in the Third Reich! How about George Orwell’s “1984!” Feats of mass media oratory, alone, are not sufficient to win governing consent from the American people. In Obama’s camp, all “foot soldiers” or rather “mass media soldiers” are still on campaigning alert that espouses a defensive mode in all directions, even though, they already won the election in 2008.

We remember the socialist left during the Vietnam War – actress Jane Fonda even rode a tank with North Vietnamese soldiers by her side - all in the name of “war protestor.”

Democrats harbor many illusions of ill-gotten power. Democrats fancy there is some Goebellian secret to manipulating the masses into a frenzied mob or into silent sheep that will only rubber stamp Obama’s wishes. It looks like as if when Obama and his cohorts cannot stir the masses into a heap of “baba sheep,” they start demonizing the Republicans as well as disrespecting the integrity of democratic institutions and First Amendment inalienable rights of the People to protest, demonstrate against and petition Government for redress of grievances. “Tea parties,” demonstrations, peaceful protest, and peaceable assembly are as American as apple pie and baseball.

Many of us have always considered the possibility that Democrats are “closet dictators” who lash out in rage when they cannot lawfully “get their way.” They have a tendency to rattle the words of representative government while at the same time practicing contempt towards people who live the spirit and letter of truly free government by their actions. That attitude is very cynical and worse, unrealistic, all at the same time. Democrats live in a world of fantasy if they expect Obama to be the “first magician” in the White House; for, the fact of the matter is, Obama is no different from any other President in the United States of America whose ideas of governance are not necessarily accepted by all Americans. Confidence to govern is consent-based and cannot be imposed from above.

There are no “baba sheep” or frenzied mobs here to give them such “total confidence.” “Confidence” is utilized in parliamentary systems whereby the government or current administration is dissolved and new elections are called. But in our system of representative government, the President is elected for a fixed term of four years. Here, politicians have to earn “confidence” from our lawfully given consent. “Confidence” appears to psychologically matter to Obama and his staff in a manner not amenable to immediate vote getting – at least not until 2012 when Obama may seek a second term. It is as if they expected Obama to become the first “knight on a white horse” wooing and cajoling masses of people into kow-towing acceptance of every thought spewed forth out of Washington DC. The next presidential election is not until 2012. Now, then, it is Obama’s and the Democrats’ leftist legislative agenda that they covet “confidence” for. Rightly so, Americans are provably demonstrating they do not consent to it.

In short, our inalienable rights to peaceable dissent, protest, demonstration, opposition and assembly are already constitutionally guarantied and secure. We have no kings or nobles here – all politicians are subject to lawful dissent, legal opposition as well as to the much-dreaded opportunity to be “booted out of office,” comes the next election. And this outcome, Democrats fear the most, hence, their illicit approach to maintaining “the people’s confidence” in their attempts to shove socialist thought down their throats. It appears that Americans are voting early – they do not consent to Obama’s agenda, and this is not a conspiracy. It’s open dissent, in the good old American Way!

Wake-up, Democrats! This is the United States of America. We have the God-given inalienable constitutional right to not only disagree with and oppose Obama’s socialist meanderings but also your attempts to implement them in this nation without the lawful consent of the American people. There! And that’s the gist of it!

CLOSET DICTATORS

Leftist Democrats often behave like petty dictators caricatured in comic books. Democrats cannot stand lawful dissent or genuine legal opposition to their policies. They are so out of touch with the lot of Americans at the ground level that they imagine conspiracies from the upper echelon of the Republican Party - by accusing Republicans of having orchestrated such groundswell, massive, grassroots opposition to President Obama’s “health-Scarce” and “E-Con-manic” policies. From Washington DC’s Obama “Chicago machine-style” politics, every thing appears to be a “con job” in the mass media and on the Internet. For when there is no provable consent from the American people for alleged legislative agendas, Democrats in Washington DC are only assuming they have legitimacy for implementing them, while pretending they can ignore the will of the American people.

Leftist, socialist-leaning Democrats fantasize unanimous agreement while courting and dispensing socialist thought “with an American flavor” against which they expected there would be no opposition. That is naïve and cynical. Democrats are showing contempt for democratic structures and constitutional due process of law as enshrined and guaranteed in the First Amendment. They fancy they had it “in the bag” with their grandstanding “wordsmith” tactics by which they would “sweep the world off its feet” with feats of oratory. Remember Goebels in the Third Reich! How about George Orwell’s “1984!” Feats of mass media oratory, alone, are not sufficient to win governing consent from the American people. In Obama’s camp, all “foot soldiers” or rather “mass media soldiers” are still on campaigning alert that espouses a defensive mode in all directions, even though, they already won the election in 2008.

We remember the socialist left during the Vietnam War – actress Jane Fonda even rode a tank with North Vietnamese soldiers by her side - all in the name of “war protestor.”

Democrats harbor many illusions of ill-gotten power. Democrats fancy there is some Goebellian secret to manipulating the masses into a frenzied mob or into silent sheep that will only rubber stamp Obama’s wishes. It looks like as if when Obama and his cohorts cannot stir the masses into a heap of “baba sheep,” they start demonizing the Republicans as well as disrespecting the integrity of democratic institutions and First Amendment inalienable rights of the People to protest, demonstrate against and petition Government for redress of grievances. “Tea parties,” demonstrations, peaceful protest, and peaceable assembly are as American as apple pie and baseball.

Many of us have always considered the possibility that Democrats are “closet dictators” who lash out in rage when they cannot lawfully “get their way.” They have a tendency to rattle the words of representative government while at the same time practicing contempt towards people who live the spirit and letter of truly free government by their actions. That attitude is very cynical and worse, unrealistic, all at the same time. Democrats live in a world of fantasy if they expect Obama to be the “first magician” in the White House; for, the fact of the matter is, Obama is no different from any other President in the United States of America whose ideas of governance are not necessarily accepted by all Americans. Confidence to govern is consent-based and cannot be imposed from above.

There are no “baba sheep” or frenzied mobs here to give them such “total confidence.” “Confidence” is utilized in parliamentary systems whereby the government or current administration is dissolved and new elections are called. But in our system of representative government, the President is elected for a fixed term of four years. Here, politicians have to earn “confidence” from our lawfully given consent. “Confidence” appears to psychologically matter to Obama and his staff in a manner not amenable to immediate vote getting – at least not until 2012 when Obama may seek a second term. It is as if they expected Obama to become the first “knight on a white horse” wooing and cajoling masses of people into kow-towing acceptance of every thought spewed forth out of Washington DC. The next presidential election is not until 2012. Now, then, it is Obama’s and the Democrats’ leftist legislative agenda that they covet “confidence” for. Rightly so, Americans are provably demonstrating they do not consent to it.

In short, our inalienable rights to peaceable dissent, protest, demonstration, opposition and assembly are already constitutionally guarantied and secure. We have no kings or nobles here – all politicians are subject to lawful dissent, legal opposition as well as to the much-dreaded opportunity to be “booted out of office,” comes the next election. And this outcome, Democrats fear the most, hence, their illicit approach to maintaining “the people’s confidence” in their attempts to shove socialist thought down their throats. It appears that Americans are voting early – they do not consent to Obama’s agenda, and this is not a conspiracy. It’s open dissent, in the good old American Way!

Wake-up, Democrats! This is the United States of America. We have the God-given inalienable constitutional right to not only disagree with and oppose Obama’s socialist meanderings but also your attempts to implement them in this nation without the lawful consent of the American people. There! And that’s the gist of it!

I noticed Mike is suddenly gone. He was all about calling me a liar and saying Im an uncredible source but as soon as I provide exactly what he asked for in comparision data hes suddenly not here anymore. Wonder why that is?

You cant win a debate with me by saying "no sir, you suck" Bring FACT, Im here and Im chock full of fact for ya!

Before a solution is developed, someone needs to clearly delineate the darn problem. I recently took my son to the emergency room with a broken hand, with insurance I might add. The doctor thanked us for being the only real emergency of the evening. The other patients he had seen during the day were seeking narcotics or had a minor issue like itchy scalp (true of a previous patient). I asked why so many people would come to the hospital without an emergency situation, when I just paid a $75.00 co-pay. The answer was that they arent paying the bill, taxpayers are. The doctor went on to say that during extreme weather, people come to the emergency room several times a week with no real medical issues; but why not, its free. In many states Medicare patients have claims filed on them for medical services on an average of once every two weeks! This is 10 times as often as those having private insurance and making co-payments. People will continue to abuse the system until these types of situations are corrected. When people have no financial investment in medical services, they will continue to use and abuse the system. The current healthcare proposals would be a huge disaster and an endless entitlement program of abuse, waste, and deficits. Everyone needs to contribute something to their medical care, even if it is a $5.00 co-pay. The smallest of investment would eliminate the burden of abuse on the system, lower cost, and improve services. But no, we will continue to destroy this nation giving more people something for nothing.

decosys--you are right! good post! some people voted for obama because they thought he would ensure welfare was increased. that is exactly what happened! why should these folks support anyone else? they get something for nothing under this administration! they have no incentive to fend for themselves in this world! those folks also received an additional $250 of our hard-earned money from the "stimulus" just because they choose not to obtain skills/education to better themselves! some dead people received the money too! Everyone needs to contribute to the services they use but obama will continue to ensure only certain people will!

To Decosys: You gotta remember something about these emergency rooms. Back when you could not go to these places without an amergency, you couldnt get a doctor there either because they didnt want to work there for lack of business. Doctors did not work in these rooms, they were on call and sometimes it would take lots of time to summons a doctor who might be working in another hospital area. After it was approved that non emergency cases could be seen in these emergency rooms, then the doctors wanted to work there. The DOCTORS themselves supported this little move. Why? They can now work in the emergency room, see a host of regular patients and get paid for all of it. ITS ALL ABOUT THE BUCK! The doctors arnt complaining because they are making a lot of money in the emergency rooms.

Wow Decoys I couldnt have said that better myself. Half the problem here is that stupid law that no one can be turned down for "emergency service" If they REALLY want to play with health insurance they should go after defining what an "emergency" is and ONLY include THAT in the law that says hospitals cant turn them down! What a great post Decoys thank you!

i live in Australia and this article is VERY MISLEADING, they are undoubtably referring to aboriginal communities that are all totally segregated from the rest of society. They dont have garbage collection let alone access to health care.This is because of complex form of segregation that is firmly in place in Australia. One of the results of this is that Aboriginal people suffer from ear eyes and throat disease and regularly go blind from one particular disease that is all but eradicated in the rest of society. There is also a twenty year life expectancy gap between indigenous Australians and the rest of society. my point ii all this is an indictment on Australian society at large but not the health care system. As an Australian citizen i regularly use the health care system and it is a god send it is great. I see a what ever doctor i want, whenever i want for free!!! I dont ever have to worry about it.

ANCHORAGE, Alaska - Former Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin called President Barack Obamas health plan "downright evil" Friday in her first online comments since leaving office, saying in a Facebook posting that he would create a "death panel" that would deny care to the neediest Americans.

"The America I know and love is not one in which my parents or my baby with Down Syndrome will have to stand in front of Obamas death panel so his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their level of productivity in society, whether they are worthy of health care," the former Republican vice presidential candidate wrote.

"Such a system is downright evil," Palin wrote on her page, which has nearly 700,000 supporters. She encouraged her supporters to be engaged in the debate.

The claim that the Democratic health care bills would encourage euthanasia has been circulating on the Internet for weeks and has been echoed by some Republican leaders. Democrats from Obama on down have dismissed it as a distortion.

The allegation appears to be based on a provision of the House bill that would require Medicare to pay for end-of-life counseling sessions, on a voluntary basis, for beneficiaries who want the service.

Medicare already covers hospice care. And legislation passed by Congress in 1990 requires that patients be asked if they have a living will.

An e-mail sent to Palins spokeswoman to confirm authorship of the Facebook posting was not immediately returned Friday. There was no immediate reply to phone messages left late Friday with the White House and House Speaker Nancy Pelosis office seeking comment on Palins remarks.

Republican criticism has also included claims that the reform plans will lead to rationing, or the government determining which medical procedures a patient can have.

Palin resigned as Alaska governor on July 26 with nearly 18 months left in her term. She cited not only the numerous ethics complaints that had been filed against her also her wish not to be a lame duck after the first-term governor decided not to seek re-election next year.

Palin, popular with conservatives in the Republican party, has said she wants to build a right-of-center coalition, and there is speculation she will seek the presidency in 2012. In the two weeks since she resigned, Palin has made only one public appearance, giving a Second Amendment rights speech last Saturday before a gun owners group in Anchorage.

Palin or her aides post notes on her Facebook account about once or twice a week, usually to set out policy statements, issue news releases or refute rumors circulating on the Internet.

Palin also has been largely silent before Fridays Facebook post. She was a voracious user of the social networking site Twitter, and promised to keep her supporters updated with a new private account after she left office.

AckAck--I really like Palin! In addition to your comments, i would like to bring up several facts. obama has not distinguished the illegals from US Citizens/Americans! those that disrespect our laws and are here ILLEGALLY should not be allowed to be in our healthcare system or any system in the US to begin with! If they have to be treated, they should be sent back to their country afterwards. Futhermore, where are all of the millions of doctors and healthcare professionals that will be needed as of Day 1? obama and is idiot supporters ignore this! this healthcare failure is just that because we dont have the healthcare professionals necessary to treat people. since obama and his gang are so smart, im sure they have a plan to intimidate folks into going into the profession and getting a degree by the end of this year. im sure obama has a plan to ensure that doctors stay in their positions even though their salaries will be cut! LOL! what idiots! lets not forget that obama had everything figured out during his campaign and promised the American people that he had a way to pay for his plan and the middleclass would not suffer because of it! hahahahahaah! what a clown! he is a disgrace! it is also is a failure because small businesses cant afford the government penalies/taxes they are going to have to pay so our economy will continue to decline as a result. i also dont understand how in the hell obama and his idiot supporters have the nerve to criticize those of us who have common sense and are angry! just because they are morons can cant understand simple concepts is no fault of the right! the protestors are sick and tired of not being heard. if they are like me, contacting the one idiot democrat we have in my state does no good. she continues to vote for anything obama and his mob want. it is sickening! this administration is trying to tie healthcare with our failing economy to divert the real cause! that is typical of liberals/democrats! only the stupid will buy into what this snake oil salesman is pushing! the protestors are not disrespecting this idiots! the idiots are disrespecting the American people and need to suffer the consequences! they should expect yelling at this point. nothing else has worked! instead they lie and try to deceive anyone foolish enough to believe them--the left-winged media and other liberals.

by the way, i guess obamas promise of pay as you go is out the window with the new planes they are ordering for the "elite" in Washington? LOL! obama has no integrity and anyone who trusts him or his administration is a fool. they have proven time and time again they are lying to the American people! therefore, with their track record who in the hell is going to support him in any capacity, especially with this healthcare debacle? LOL!

Jackie, you are right on with your assessment of "Where is our health care people" going to come from. Well, health care provisions will be cut immediately. You will not be able to just bust into a doctors office and see a "Doctor!" In general medicine, you may not be able to see a "Docror" at all! You will see many, many under-educated physicians assistants at work in this system. You will see many, many nurses aids at work in this system because those are the people who will put on a white coat and work for substandard pay. They work cheaper but not qualified to do what they will be doing in the years to come.


I am concerned about medi-care cuts and the system as a whole. Right now I am at ease with my insurance. I dont want to lay here and die with the flu just because I am too old to be significant to the system. THINGS LIKE THAT IS WHAT OLDER PEOPLE ARE WORRIED ABOUT! Obama and company can stand up and tell any lie they want and say "Thats not how its going to be!" The truth is, it will be that way and they know it. I cant see why we are not making a bigger fuss over this heath care change...

If Bubbles or Jackie or 2blue paid any attention at all- regarding the "end of life" item which was included in one of the health care reform bills- you would know that this particular item was inserted by a republican- additionally, it merely is a service offered (hurry, you three, go look up "offered") through medicare that says people interested in making preparations regarding a "living will" - they would assist them in doing this. Do any of you know what a "living will" is? Do any of you know what DNR is? If any of you have lost a parent, a sibling, or a friend who had no will, then you all are familiar with the chaos created when no one knows what the deceased final wishes were.
This utter nonsense babbled by the ultimate babbler, Ms Palin, regarding the death squad out to snuff her child- or Bubbles here fearing that because of his incontinence, he is a burden on society and should be "put down"... utter nonsense. Why the hell do you think these uninformed fools are ranting and raving at town meetings! Its because they loaded up on utter nonsense that suckered you in as well. As long as people like you prefer to remain ignorant you will continue to do the bidding of special interest groups who will not even say thank you as they take even more of your money. Frankly, you deserve what you get for being so dense.

Idiot Dora--the reason people are angry is because people dont trust obama and the democrats! they know that the damn fools havent read the bill but want to push it through anyway. so lets be honest here! obama has lied so many times to the American people and folks are starting to wake up! Even the damn democrats have admitted that the bill is so complicated that it would not make much sense even if they read it. Most people also understand that spending money we dont have will cause us one hell of a lot more problems than it is worth. By the way, you need to stop with your hatred and lies! Tell the truth for once. obama and his idiot friends have no integrity and they have lied too many times already for anyone to trust them on anything! As for cost cutting, we see how much they are working on this issue by the amount of money they are willing to shell out on planes that we could do without! So this goes to show just how serious they are about keeping their word. where is the pay as you go system obama was talking about? of course, obama and his mob are now trying to convince people that fixing the healthcare system will fix the economy. that is bullshit! the housing market is the problem. jobs are a problem. so their healthcare system will ensure more jobs will the lost. how stupid are you about economics? instead of passing laws to ensure the problems with our healthcare system are corrected, the government wants to interfere and cause problems for everyone. they are going about this the wrong way and the people will suffer. oh yeah, i forgot--you dont give a damn about them!

Dora, you cancerous friggin idiot! How can you write the shit you write in these bloggs without hesitation. Or without even knowing what you are saying. Not only do you not know what you are writing, you write it with pleasure and without regard to who it hurts or affects. You are beyond help!

Section 1233, page 425-426, of the bill states that every 5 years seniors get end of life counciling. There is no "offered" option to help you make a living will. It is going to council you to make one, its going to council you to select a proxy. Its promoting hospice and other programs that only offer pain management options until you croak.

All those suggestions are wonderful but taking a man whos 65 and saying "you need to name a proxy, you need to give power of attorney, you need a DNR and by the way, a living will is needed for you" when he may be perfectly healthy is insulting.

They say its not manditory, unless youre on medicare, THEN its something you have to do. You dont want to do it, dont go on medicare.

On page 426 of HR3200 it says:

"An Explination by the practicioner of the continum of end of life services and supports available, including palliative care and hospice and benefits for such services and supports that are available under this title"

Sure sounds to ME like they want to council you every 5 years about numbing your pain until you croak.

Im sure youre going to read that differently than I did, and that is the problem with these bills, you say potatoe, I say potatoe (that doesnt work as well in print) but the fact is its there and how do we know which of our interpurtations are the correct one? We dont. You ever heard "better to err on the side of caution?"

Im also sure youre one of those people who read in the consititution the government shall "collect tax for the welfare of the people" and think that means welfare as in paying so someone who is lazy doenst have to get off their fat ass and work. It actually means like roads, military, and stuff the general population will benefit from, some form of infastructure. But its like a liberal to take that word and make it mean I have to support the lazy asses.

Amber, NO, I was NOT referring to aboriginal communities. Its just a fact that you can treat some of the people all of the time or all of the people some of the time, I want to guarantee Im in the Some of the people that get treated all of the time.

Here is an article from just last year that states children are waiting up to 4 years for ENT surgery they need:

http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,,240...

I know you think your system is awesome (and I"m not saying my system here is great) but maybe theres a whole bunch of the population youre missing over there. I was able to find them with a couple key strokes.

¿sıɥʇ ǝǝs ǝuoʎuɐ ʇ,usǝop ˙uʍop ǝpısdn ʇuǝɯuɹǝʌoƃ ǝɥʇ ƃuıuunɹ sı ɐɯɐqo

Dora-get a clue as to what is going on in the world. You and your holier than thou attitude stink. Were all impressed that you can read books. Wow! Put the book down and see real life and how it is affecting us.

Finding every outlier and making that a platform to condemn bureaucracy is brilliant - if only it hadnt been done by Glenn Beck and every othe right wing zealot. I agree that waste, incompetence and fraud can be annoying.

However, to face bankruptcy because you get sick is just insane. The young subsidize the old, the healthy subsidize the ill - the bigger the group, the lower the overall individual cost & risk. These are basics that explain how a single payer plan, with one administration and the best elements of UK, France, Netherlands and Canada plans can save US money and provide decent care for all.

With 47,000,000 uninsured Americans, and millions MORE underinsured, we need a change!
What we have is failing more and more, day by day. It will bankrupt us and turn the USA into a 3rd world nation if we dont change it. From what I understand, even Congressman Blunt (R-MO)acknowledges we need a change.

We need to address this healthcare insurance crisis like responsible adults, not like juveniles unwilling to consider alternatives.

Im being totally responsible when I say this Mark. Hows that universal Mass care doing up there? Isnt Mass almost bankrupt?

I would be willing to let a couple blue states try this wonder system out and if it works, wonderful. If not, we only have a couple states that learned the hard way this thing sucks.

The problem youre noting with the Netherlands is that they go to the doctor 2 times a week MINIMUM. My friend Tine calls it "preventive care". Do YOU have that much time to take off work?

The problem with Canada, they have FAR less people than we do and even THEY would be pissed off if a bunch of Americans ran up there and asked them to pay more so we could just use the medical system.

The problem with France, on May 8th the economic minister came out and said the public/private is failing and by 2012 the country will be bankrupt.

I agree something needs to be done about healthcare but pick an issue and solve it like adults you said. Lets try that. I always say take an issue and tackle it.

You cant throw out the cow because the milk went bad. figure out WHY the milk went bad. Did you leave it in the sun? Once you find out WHY you can answer how to not let it happen again.

They just made a massive nationwide sweep of medicare fraud and arrested at least 40 doctors and countless patients for it! Fix THAT.

Pick any liberal talking point on this bill and figure out the cause and solution to that one thing and address THAT.

47 million uninsured Americans. Lets do it together:

(someone in another post found an article and he would like me to use his figures so here it goes) try 12 million illegals that brings the number down to 35 million.
There are 14 million already eligible for programs (medicare, medicaid) that are too frigin lazy to get up off their asses and fill out the paperwork. That brings it down to 21 million.
9 million make over $75,000 a year, that brings it down to 12 million Americans uninsured.

You want to talk to me about raising the maximum pay allowance for medicaid so they qualify for it. Id be willing to do that. Im sure youll find other conservatives will too. Look, solved another without a sweeping overhaul! Were doing GREAT Mark. Give me another talking point and Ill find a way around THAT without a sweeping overhaul too.

There are two things I fear with this bill Mark.

First Not all doctors can afford an MRI machine in their office. Under O-blah blah care if all doctors dont have it, none will. Do you really think they are going to invest the money to give EVERYONE an MRI machine? No, theyre going to take them away from those who have them. They are talking about saving money here Mark, in the long run, whats cheaper, smashing all MRI machines or buying them for all the doctors who dont have one?

And the other thing Im really worried about is if I am reading this bill wrong, GREAT, if Im NOT and the liberal supporters are, were totally screwed. Which interpretation do you agree with, and what if once its law, thats not the way they meant it?

You cant guarantee that YOUR interpretation of the bill is correct just like I cant guarantee you my views are correct. I can only tell you what Ive understood from what Ive read and it scares the hell out of me that I might be right.

And before some dummy goes and accuses me of it. Im using the MRI as an example. As far as I know, thats NOT in the bill.

aliy - Okay, lets just look at demographics of the uninsured (and leaving out maybe another 100,000,000 UNDER-insured). My response has not been fact-checked. Frankly, I dont have the time to verify methods, standards, and analysis used.

Howevah, according to The National Coalition on Health Care, nearly 46 million Americans, or 18 percent of the population under the age of 65, were without health insurance in 2007, their latest data available. The large majority of the uninsured (85 percent) are native or naturalized citizens.

THAT MEANS (drumroll please)... that 15% or 6,900,000 are NOT native or naturalized citizens. Who they are? I dont know. Mexican? Asian? Martian? I dont know.

Whether a significant portion of the 39,000,000 uninsured are eligible for Medicare I dont know. Im not an expert. Please post verifyable notes regarding that demographic please.

Quibbling over details is a waste of my time and yours. You probably hate government, taxes, immigrants (legal or not)... I dont know. However, ignoring the suffering of fellow citizens is evil and corrupt, in my book. If you want to live like that, go ahead. I cant live like that.

What do you personally hope to gain my supporting the insane health system we have now?

Dont you think that with projections of the "status quo system" costing more and more and leaving fewer and fewer insured, at greater and greater cost that it represents an economic threat to our naitonal security?

markinboston to aliy: aliy - Okay, lets just look at demographics of the uninsured (and leaving out maybe another 100,000,000 UNDER-insured). My response has not been fact-checked. Frankly, I dont have the time to verify methods, standards, and analysis used.

Mark, are you a politician? You sound like one of our senators or congressmen! You have the answers and willing to vote for it but you havent read the question...

Listen to the people not politicians or news media! If you listen to the people you may hear something strange - like, WHAT THE PEOPLE WANT! Not the politicians, THEY WANT VOTES! Not the news media, THEY WANT RATINGS! I am a senior citizen and I sure as hell dont want to lay and die with the flu just because I am insignificant to the system.

It stands to reason that the system Obama and company is proposing WILL NOT WORK LIKE THEY SAY IT WILL... I am for working on the system we have right now and not changing it totally. WE HAVE THE BEST HEALTH CARE IN THE WORLD HERE IN THE U.S..

The selling politicians can stand up and tell us anything they want to tell us while getting us to buy into this health care plan. Lets say that it passes and we get government for ALL THE PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY. The first phase of this plan will probably look good and work okay but what about down the road when reality sets it? What about when there is no money to pay for the health care that people receive and you cant get anymore taxes out of the people? What about when rationing and corner cutting sets in and they start the weeding out process of who can and who cant get care just to keep the cost down? IT WILL HAPPEN! There is NO QUESTION ABOUT THAT! Ten years or less into this plan will be desasterous...

WHY CHANGE THE ENTIRE SYSTEM? Why not get serious and work on the one we have? Im sure it would be much simplier and Im equally sure more people would help with it.

Right now the only thing pushing this CHANGE int the system is a EGO DRIVEN POLITICIAN out of Chicago that could care less about me or you as long as he can change an entire country. BOTTOM LINE - The proposed system CANNOT WORK!

Washington Post confirms Grandma faces Euthanasia under Obamacare


The Washington Post has just confirmed as false two statements in the new White House video and AARP emails, which had denied claims of Euthanasia in "Obamacare" health bill HR 3200, that hostile, socialist government takeover of your hospital, doctors, children, and grandparents. An editorial by respected bioethicist and Wash. Post Editorial Board member Charles Lane entitled, "Undue Influence: The House Bill Skews End-of-Life Counsel," blasts the false claims by AARP and The White House that HR 3200 does not push euthanaia on seniors.

1) Proof that EUTHANASIA is pushed by Obamas socialist government "health" care.

President Obama had been confronted by a North Carolina woman asking if "everyone thats Medicare age will be visited and told they have to decide how they wish to die."

In response Obama joked morbidly about euthanasia, that he hadnt yet hired enough bureaucrats to conduct such an operation, yet he could not deny the New York Posts discovery the House bill "compels seniors to submit to a counseling session every five years (and more often if they become sick or go into a nursing home) about alternatives for end-of-life care" (pages 425-430). In other words, your grandmother will be told, when insufficient resources are rationed to young people, that her duty to die begins with mandatory "end-of-life counseling," or as Obama explained, "encourage the use of living wills" that terminate otherwise salvageable lives prematurely through signed "do not resuscitate" (DNR) legal releases that authorize "pulling the plug" on Grandma.

AckAck, you ask, "Mark, are you a politician?" Yes I am, and Im on the Death Panel. Sorry, but your times up. Good bye.

Polls state that despite the stupid comments from Palin, etc., the majority of Americans SUPPORT health insurance reform.

Why change the system? Dude, are you retarded? Because it SUCKS! Entire nations pay less per capita with BETTER RESULTS then what we have.

Look, I know reform is not easy, and health care and health insurance touches us all in personal ways. Defining many details in such a revision is time consuming, and not everyone with be happy with the results. However, it will still be better than what we have now! Some people have been so tuned up with right wing fear that they can hardly function. That is sad.

How can you presuppose health insurance reform cannot work? Do you have so little faith in our country that you presume we will fail at fixing something that is badly flawed? Shame on you.

Mark, I knew you sounded like an Obama crony! So, for your information, you have nothing to say to me. I do not like liberals IN ANY WAY! They are brainwashed just like the terriorists... They lie, cheat, kill, steal and many other Un-Godly things I do not care to mention!

What I dont figure is why you are here on a conservative web site unless it is that you work for ACORN! Ha, thats it - Obama gave you $300.00 and told you that you could lie and be a politician, just like him, if you worked for ACORN... And, you really think you are a politician. Go figure.

AckAck - Thanks for your comments. I am flattered you consider me an Obama crony. For the record, I am not a politician, I just play one on email - little attempt at levity there.

I am glad to plague you - I think the right wing has been in a bubble of self-imposed isolation, and while we may dislike each other a modicum of dialogue is refreshing.

Really, arent we ALL brainwashed? We get beliefs and attitudes from parents, friends, society, personal experience. I cant persuade you that my point of view is valid, and sadly thats because you are a retard. LOL.

So - where do I sign up for that $300.00? Got a URL link?

If we have the best health care in the world then why are we somewhere in the fifties regarding infant mortality. Saying something a lot does not make it true.

http://www.thehopeforamerica.com/play.php?id=1517

http://www.bcbs.com/blueresources/mcrg/MCRG.pdf (starting on page 35 blue Cross breaks down figures for 2008 uninsured)

Honestly, Mark, I dont support the care system we have now. Its expensive and sucks really really bad. I paid over $4,000 last year out of pocket for medical stuff (tests, drugs, doctor apts.) do you know how much actually went toward my deductable? $8. I think it really sucks.

But instead of adding a program to the already watered down care we get, and drawing money away from Medicare and medicaid (which are already hurting in a lot of areas anyway) instead of coming up with a program that doesnt address (according to other countries who DO have the system) the things that will make it a failure (fraud, the illegal drain on the system, the cost thats already estimated more than we can afford) Take ONE issue and address it.

None of this bill actually adresses any of the stuff that will make this a failure. You want us to do like a medicare for the whole country but just a week ago over 40 doctors and a BUNCH of people were taken into federal custody for medicare fraud!! Fix that before you add more fraud to an already corrupt system.

There are things I take issue with. Like they say "this will insure all children" well, if anyone had read the first stimulus he signed, they already did that. So that is not a good agrument.

Or they cant deny pre-existing conditions with this bill. Did you know thats already a law. If you HAD insurance for 1 year prior to changing they can not legally deny you. And if you didnt, you hold credible insurance for 1 year and they HAVE TO COVER YOU.

Already a law Mark, so I dont know why this is a talking point. Its like running on a platform of "Im going to build a big building and hold criminals in it, Im going to call it JAIL" and expect the people to think youre doing something new. They are NOT coming up with anything new, they are just repeating the easy stuff because its already a law!!!

Or how about the catch phrase "no ones trying to kill grandma" they talk about how there is no provision in there saying they have to get hospice counciling. However, it came out over the weekend that Obama and his ilk would take that out if its really a deal breaker. They are willing to take out a provision that they have been insisting for months was never in there to begin with! Makes me trust them even LESS.

The AARP has come out in the last week and said they support healthcare reform but not really THIS bill also. So all that crap about how its AARP endorsed is just that, crap.

So, its not that something doesnt need to be done, but I just dont think THIS bill is the answer. Is that fair enough?

The problem is the UNINFORMED Conservatives. You latch onto a catch phrase that sounds good to you from any concervative radio nut and think that is gospel. Lets work together to get a decent health care system. You know what we have is not working. If we keep what we have, the price for health care goes up and up and up. You are going to pay more - no matter what you do. Lets hunker down and work this out together without all the teen age shouting.

Oh!! Gospel! My favorite Book! ;-)

Definition of a Liberal or What God thinks of liberals



God himself gave the definition of a liberal when he said in an Old Testament prophecy, “The vile person shall be no more called liberal.” He was speaking of a time to come when vile people will no longer be allowed to hide behind the label of liberal--thinking themselves sophisticated and modern and open minded. But they will be shown for what they really are--vile.



Isaiah 32:5-8
5. The vile person shall be no more called liberal, nor the churl said to be bountiful. 6. For the vile person will speak villainy, and his heart will work iniquity, to practice hypocrisy, and to utter error against the LORD, to make empty the soul of the hungry, and he will cause the drink of the thirsty to fail 7. The instruments also of the churl are evil: he deviseth wicked devices to destroy the poor with lying words, even when the needy speaketh right. 8. But the liberal deviseth liberal things; and by liberal things shall he stand.

The word Liberal by itself when looked up in dictionaries has mostly a desirable definition. But the scripture is clear that vile people are being referred to as liberal. God said there would come a time when the vile would no more be called liberal. This shows that right now vile people are being called liberal and God says he will stop this practice some time in the future. He also said the churl (rude and stingy) are being called bountiful.

There is another scripture in Isaiah 5:20 that addresses this. It says, "Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!"

In Isaiah 32:8 (quoted above) it says "But the liberal deviseth liberal things; and by liberal things shall he stand." He is saying that the truly liberal or noble person will do truly noble things and stand. You only have to examine the behavior of the liberals today to see that they are not noble or princely. They are the people who want abortion on demand which is gruesome and horrid--not noble. So we know the scripture is true that vile people are being called liberal.

Some English Definitions:



Liberal - marked by generosity; given or provided in a generous and openhanded way; broadminded; not bound by authoritarianism, orthodoxy, or traditional forms. Also: lacking moral restraint, licentious


Vile - Morally base, shamefully wicked, despicable, vicious, loathsome, disgusting.



Villainy - Conduct characteristic of a villain.





From Strong’s Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries by James Strong



H5081 Liberal

áéã›ðˆ

naòdŒòyb

naw-deeb

From H5068; properly voluntary, that is, generous; hence, magnanimous; as noun, a grandee (sometimes a tyrant):—translated to English as--free, liberal (things), noble, prince, willing ([hearted]).



H5036 Vile

ìá˜ðˆ

naòbaòl

naw-bawl

From H5034; stupid; wicked (especially impious):—translated to English as--fool, foolish, foolish man, foolish woman, vile person.





The next time you hear anyone is a liberal, show them Isaiah 32:5 and tell them, "This is what God thinks of liberals."



Do not think that this page is an endorsement of the deeds of the so called "conservatives." I am not playing politics here. Politics has descended to the level of gang warfare with political parties being the gangs involved.



I keep hearing the word freedom, but there seems to be less freedom. Democracy in some nations has become nothing more than the slaves getting to choose and vote for their slave masters.

2blue, wonderful post. Those reasons are why so called "Liberals" have no words for me. I am a christian and their words are "Vile". The devil is hiding behind the word "Liberal" just like the homosexuals are hiding behind the word "Gay." The devilish people who think that way make themselves believe the word "Liberal" and "Gay" describes a good part of society! THEY HAVE NEVER BEEN MORE WRONG...

AckAck. I look at it this way. From the beginning, Satan has tried to use Gods word to attack. Whether, Jesus, prophets, saints, me, you, man, woman....he has used his word.

I use Gods word as a shield to bounce off the fiery darts from the enemy.

They call us crazy. Have at it! I am bananas for Jesus! Their words mean nothing to me. When it is all said and done, in the grand scheme of things, when we are all face to face with our Creator, then we will all know. They can choose to be Anti Christ if they wish. God gave us free will.....but they can try, try they do, to challenge us by calling names, using His word, and it just wont work.

True words 2blues. My wife and I was talking today on the way to an event and she had changed churches within the last year and I had not. I went to her church and listened to the preacher. A total difference in preaching and teaching techniques from the two. The church I had attended seem to never teach the full scripture that the sermon pertained to. I had alway thought that to be different. Then it came to me that the scripture was not being fully taught because it was in conflict with some life styles and the preachers was not fully doing his job for fear of hurting someones feelings. THATS WRONG!


The church I now attend the preacher is in full contact with Gods way. He says all sinners need to hear Gods word pertaining to certain things. Another thing, there are not near as many TRUE ATHIEST that claim to be. They only ward off God to fulfill their life styles. Of course liberals hate the kind of trash we are now talking... Ha, Ha.

Jesus would be in favor of a single payer system. There are few religious figures more socialist. Remember you have to give up everything you own in order to get into heaven, right?

it is obvious you dont know the Bible. i suggest educating yourself before making such dumb comments about subjects you know nothing about. of course, if you are taught by liberals, i can understand your confusion!

I agree, wonderful post 2blue!!!

God deliver me from these Bible Thumpers......  such "inward looking people".     All they can do is quote the bible but dont do anything to really help a person.    Yes,   of course you want no real Health Care....... some poor soul might be helped.   You certainly are not ready to make any sacrafices for that purpose.    Somehow you Bible quoting missing the whole point.



Holly

Professing to be wise, they became fools. You have no idea what you are talking about. Its the same old rhetoric, the same mind set that you and your radical group follows.

You have missed the boat. Your elevator does not go all the way up. You dont read a thing anyone here posts. We all have substance. You pick out key words that you have been conditioned to look for, or what you want to gleam in on and like the accuser of the brethren you are, you do the same thing over and over.

You want God to deliver you but you dont acknowledge His ways and you rebel against everything He stands for.

Its funny how you all use quotes or derivatives of His word to attack.

You want Him to deliver you but only if its convenient to your cause. If He answers you, you wont even know it because you dont know His voice. You wont let Him into your heart.

Its the same thing with everyone of you who come here.

Pardon me....... I wasnt the one to start using "quotes and derivatives"....... YOU did. 

Dont you know by now,  especially for someone who so obviously knows the Bible backward and forward, that you can find a quote to support your view on almost anything.    There are so many contradictory quotes,  you can discount any one of them.   Wake up. 

For someone who is sooo Christian,  how can you be so judgemental (one of the things the Bible tells you not to be).   You literally do not know a single thing about my relationship with God and you set yourself up as judge and jury to do so.     At least I do not presume to know what God knows.



I can throw the same argument back to you ...... Conservatives have the "same old tape" tape playing in their heads over and over again.... bunch of robots.    Not a creative idea in the bunch.   So give me two positive sggestions on what you would do for medical care.   All you guys know is how to tear down stuff.   Wreck it and walk away.    I would hope you at least realize that SOMETHING needs to be done with our medical care system -  what do you want done???    Be positive.    Lets work on this together - isnt that what Jesus would want???



Holly

Pardon me....... I wasnt the one to start using "quotes and derivatives"....... YOU did. 

Dont you know by now,  especially for someone who so obviously knows the Bible backward and forward, that you can find a quote to support your view on almost anything.    There are so many contradictory quotes,  you can discount any one of them.   Wake up. 

For someone who is sooo Christian,  how can you be so judgemental (one of the things the Bible tells you not to be).   You literally do not know a single thing about my relationship with God and you set yourself up as judge and jury to do so.     At least I do not presume to know what God knows.



I can throw the same argument back to you ...... Conservatives have the "same old tape" tape playing in their heads over and over again.... bunch of robots.    Not a creative idea in the bunch.   So give me two positive sggestions on what you would do for medical care.   All you guys know is how to tear down stuff.   Wreck it and walk away.    I would hope you at least realize that SOMETHING needs to be done with our medical care system -  what do you want done???    Be positive.    Lets work on this together - isnt that what Jesus would want???



Holly

I am one of those "Bible Thumpers" you want delivered from. I volunteer every week in a free medical clinic hosted by a local church. There are several in the area. We are there for people who are uninsured and dont turn people away because they dont believe like we do. And none of the patients or volunteers want the universal health care that the libs are trying to push down our throats

Holly, "No bodys trying to kill Grandma" isnt that a liberal "catch phrase" and this weekend they came out and said they would be willing to take that out of the bill. Havent you liberals been arguing its NOT IN THERE?

Do you feel used by Obama? He gave you a catch phrase that turned out to be a LIE and you (or liberals like you who support what you dont understand) ran around using it

Im all for fixing healthcare but this bill is not the answer. There are things I"m taking issue with, see my response just above to Mark and you will see a few things I AM informed about and its things liberals LOVE to spit at people but its compeletely inaccurate.

Talk about not being informed.   Where did you ever get the idea that it was "liberals" that started that catch phrase about Grandma???   Conservatives came up with it much sooner.   AGAIN, talk about not being informed..... did you catch your star spokesman,  Newet on the talk show Sunday.   He was specifically asked if he had read any of the Health Care bills that have been written so far.    Naturally, the answer was "no".

In his words,  "too much to read".



The catch phrases so far have come from your favorite radio liers, like Rush Limbaugh.   Trying to scare everyone to death with outrageous phrases and misinformation.    



Do you have Social Security?    Do you have Medicare?    Want to give them up because they will make us a socialized nation??



Holly

Holly, youre not making much sense. Its Obama whos quoted as saying "nobodys trying to kill off grandma" If HES a conservative, were even worse off that I thought.

Newt does NOT speak for me. I dont care if he read the bill or not. Ive pulled a lot of stuff out of it I dont like.

You read it one way, I read it another, I really hope youre correct in the way youre reading it but since Obama said over the weekend that hospice shoot can come out since its a real deal breaker, Im guessing what I understood from what I read was spot on.

Yes, thats correct, he admitted theres a hospice shoot in the bill. Weve been hearing for months now that its just not in there, but low and behold, hes taking it out. IF youre too slow to follow that, it means IT WAS IN THERE.

He also is saying hes going to take out any single payer stuff now. You know that stuff theyve been telling us for months was NOT in the bill, yeah, theyre going to take it out now, And for those of you who are just a little slow on THAT, it means IT WAS IN THERE.

Oh, and lets not forget Huffington Post broke the story over the weekend, with a memo to pharmacutical companies that Obama agreed not to ask for lower prices for drugs. Isnt that one of the things that was suppose to save us money? Cheaper drugs? He also signed an agreement NOT to go to Canada for the drugs cheaper too.

No tort reform, no cheaper drug prices, so, lawyers and pharmacutical companies are going to be raking the same amount of money now but doctors are taking less? Yeah, I can see how you liberals would want to stick it to the little guy. Good job. I thought you wanted to dent the rich guy? Picking on the doctors and letting the big ole pharmacuticals keep their profit margin, thats not very "damn the rich" is it? I guess its selective damn the rich, you only damn the rich you dont like.

I will more than likely not see SS when I get to that age, they had estimated that the system would be broke about 20 years before I got to it and with 181 BILLION MORE in debt from July alone, Im guessing its not going to make it another 10. However, I paid into these systems, my parents and grandparents paid into it and I would expect a civilized society to take care of its elderly, not consider them cheaper dead. Its not socialized, its compassion. Taking my tax money to give an illegal something he doesnt deserve or earn, is CRAP.

Lets see--are you talking about words like hope and change? obama has proven time and time again that he is a liar but you idiots continue to support him. now just to help you out so that you will have ANOTHER example of his lies here goes: a Republican Rep from the house took obama us on his word. obama said that his door was open and that he would meet with people on healthcare. well, the rep has gone through the proper channels and sent a letter twice now requesting obama stick to his word. LOL! guess what? he has yet to receive any response of the so-called leader. keep up your ignorance. you are the ones that are UNINFORMED!

hey blue star mom, this is a earnest question. I ask this question because it helps to know who i am talking to. Are you a white supremist? Sometimes i get the feeling you are based on some of the comments you post

How did I know the race card would be thrown out by a liberal AGAIN. Is there NOTHING else you can bother calling conservatives but racists?!

You cant break our arguements so you attack us as people and were fine with that but keep in mind, it was conservatives that championed civil rights throughout the years. Martin Luther King Jr. was a conservative himself. We are all for civil rights. Its very simple, everyone equal, everyone work and pay in, everyone gets benefit back out. We dont believe in holding one group higher than another for any reason. Everyone needs to get in there and contribute, not just the few you think deserve punishment. THAT is more racist that anything a conservatives said in a long time.

I am a child of The Living God. God is Spirit. He is not a color. When he looks upon us, he doesnt see color. He sees our spirit. These bodies are just vessels. I could be the color of the rainbow, it doesnt matter.

I Love all people no matter what "color" they are. I dont like what some people do. Just as God Loves the sinner, he doesnt like the sin.

If the illegals who are breaking laws to be here were, purple, polka dot, black, white, it doesnt matter. Its the law they are breaking to be here. Others who come from their countries, who have come here to become legal citizens, are doing so by process. And they have to wait many years to reap the benefits that we, tax payers, citizens are "suppose" to reap. Unfortunately, they have to wait while watching others break laws and be rewarded for doing so.

See amber3, what you fail to realize is common sense and respect. When I go to someones house, I dont break in and steal from them, what they have worked for. I dont take. I go invited. I respect them and appreciate their invitation. If they extend to me food, a place to lay my head, etc. I am grateful and the way I show my gratitude can come in many forms. Example, I abide by the rules of their home. Some things are a given. I dont go in and put my feet up on their table, expel gas, defecate all over their home etc. This extension of respect, appreciation and courtesy seem to escape radicals. Radicals, evidently, werent raised that way. If you were, you have chosen instead to rebel.

I am not a supremest of any type. What I have stated on this web site or in the real world are facts from my experiences or observations.

Hey Amber, did it get cold in the rafters? Or did the cave catch on fire and run you out? Anyway, keep them wings flapping and help keep our mosquito population to a minimum. Good to hear from you. NOT!

Are you and susanwallace related to Timothy Leary amber3?

It sure explains alot. Oh, youre cousins?! Sort of?

Well, that tells us even more.....what?
Your father, married his sister who is his uncles mother.... and theres more?!

Oh wow, the apple doesnt fall far from the tree, does it?

Ive been reading blue star moms posts for a very long time. to even mention white supremist to her it ignorant! obviously, you are making up shit at this point as all liberals do or are you just causing trouble as all liberals do! what a stupid comment!

Jackie, the race card belongs to the liberals and they use it as their "ACE" in the hole. Blame Bush, use the race card or both.

Blue 2. Thank you for answering my question, I know it was a little invasive, its just an area of contention for me.

I grew up in southern cali. My friends were from all walks of life, all colors. They still are. Again, Most of my friends, whom are from all walks of life, color, concur. (one has to make sure, when speaking to radicals, to keep repeating the statement to avoid misunderstandings!)

They are sick of the hypocrisy as well. Radical Liberals make this a race issue. Radical Liberals, including your politicians and yes, your president, are trying to incite racial riots.

Its just a matter of time before that one plays itself out.

Ive lived with a hernia for almost 7 years now because my wife and I both are self employed and cannot afford the extortion passing for health insurance in the United States. At least if we had a health insurance plan like all the other developed nations in the world Im sure they would have gotten around to doing my surgery by now!!! As it is I keep waiting. But if you have health insurance, well bless you. Funny how everyone who is opposed to a government run health plan are the same ones who already have health insurance.

My father and his wife also own their own business. They ensure they earn enough to pay for their own health insurance. The last time I heard it was $1,600/mo! They understand it is a choice to own their own business and would go out and get jobs that have benefits if necessary. In his earlier years, my father has worked 100 hour work weeks to ensure he provided. My husband and I want to own our own business too but one of us will work to ensure we have healthcare benefits. However, no one disputes that we need to make changes. However, republicans also understand that there is a right way and wrong way to handle the situation. The democrats have not address how they are going to ensure that there are enough healthcare professionals to cover the new patients. there will definitely be rationed healthcare unless this issue is resolved and you wont get your surgery for a very long time anyway. they have also not addressed exactly how people need covered. idiot obama said 46M and now he says 30M. so what is the difference? why would you want to take any money that is saved (which is speculation) out of medicare when that entitlement program is in trouble now? that is not only stupid, it is selfish. it is robbing peter to pay paul again. of course, there is also the problem with the lobbyists that obama and his merry crooks are in bed with. until these issues are addressed, any healthcare reform will fail. lets get serious about what the real issues are. are you wanting real reform or just the crap obama is trying to throw at people. you know the hope and change garbage. trusting a moron who has failed policies is stupid! nothing this idiot has done has proven that he knows what he is doing. of course, what should anyone expect from a guy who has never been in business and knows nothing about managing a budget.

i meant--they have also not addresss exactly how many people need to be covered.

apparently i cant type tonight. it should have been addressed.

nebuchadnezzar9, I dont know what kind of business you could have that would put both, you and your wife, in a "self-employed" catagory. I can tell you this though, the day you chose to be self-employed was the day you becaue totally responsible for your health insurance costs and everything else in your life. Dont take this wrong, it might not concern you, but way too many people in this country fit into the self-employed catagory and chose to drive new cars and live in bigger houses and surround themselves with luxury items instead of buying health care insurance. Health care insurance is expensive, along with the fact that - NO ONE MAKES A SELF-EMPLOYED PERSON PURCHASE HEALTH INSURANCE, NOT EVEN WORKMANS COMPENSATION IN MY STATE - people chose to spend their money on other things. I for one dont want to pay taxes that pay for insurance for these people. How do I know that? I AM ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE! I have been self-employed for more than 40 years.

I have two big problems with the government controlling health insurance for Americans.

1. THE GOVERNMENT CANT DO SHIT IN RUNNING ANYTHING!
2. THE GOVERNMENT CANT DO SHIT IN RUNNING ANYTHING!

Do we need health care reform? Yes, we do. NOT A COMPLETE NEW SYSTEM. The system we now have needs a lot of work and I am sure, without changing the entire system, something positive could be done with it. I have medicare and it is far from perfect. It has worked, even without oversight. Take that system, add good oversite, add to it and I bet you something could be added that would make it work for everyone.

It would be nice if all this was real and we could just go to a doctor when and where we wanted, but it aint gonna happen. This Obama plan is aimed at a certain group of people that you will never hear the media mention. That one group of people is what it is about and no more. MARK THESE WORDS! Here is why this WILL NEVER work. Right out of the chute:

1. Not enough health care personnel. (People who become doctors and nurses with masters or other high level degrees go through all that schooling to make money in the health care industry. That will not be attractable if this plan is approved.) Meaning, there isnt going to be enough health care people in the beginning and there damn sure isnt on down the road.
2. COST! The cost is just too much to even speculate... So, this means cuts here and cuts there, trimming entitlements here and there, rationing care to patients until some people wont get anything out of this plan. Thats why most people want to keep their present plan and add to it. Most likely starting with the older people and working down to those who would be deemed terminally ill or had birth deformaties that would require long term care. Some democrats want to call this speculation, I call it COMMON SENSE...

By the way, I feel for you and your hernia. I just had that operation about two years ago.