isn't 8 million dead Jews equal to that of 1 innocent dead Palestinian child?

Peace would be so easy to have, if Hamas and other terrorist organizations would just stop trying to remove Israel from the map. That is Hamas' stated goal in their charter. All they would have to do is to stop the rocket attacks and Israel would be satisfied. However, because Israel chooses to defend itself, as is it's right, they get the short end of the stick and everyone wants to talk about how bad they are. Let's keep in mind who started this fight.

It is easy to see where Maureen falls on this issue, but the facts, as confirmed by the U.N., is that there is no winnning for Israel unless they offer complete surrender and give up their land.  

In my blog I wrote a piece: Israel: A No Win Situation In The Court of Public Opinion which details the facts of the conflict, who the instigator was, and how opinion tends to be squarely against the Israelis.
http://politicsandfinance.blogspot.com/

War is war, People die!  I get sick of hearing news reporters ask questions like "Is Israel being too hard on Hamas?"  That is the most dumb thing I have ever heard.  THOSE PEOPLE WANT EVERY PERSON IN ISRAEL DEAD!  There are no innocent people in Hamas.  They all hate, they want all Israelis dead so therefore they are the enemy.  If I am in battle with my enemy, I want them ALL DEAD!

Let Israel kill their enemy.  Leave them alone and support them...

Any cease fire only lets the enemy get stronger for the next one!  There will always be a next one until Israel is wipped out or Radical Islam is wipped out.  I say "LET THEM SHOOT EM!"

I think a better ratio would be 8 million dead 7th century dickweeds to 0 Israelis.  Oh, but the chil'n.  Which ones.  The ones whose parents strap explosives on their backs and send them off to blow themselves up?

I agree with all of you, and I am very surprised that there hasn't been any anti-Israel posts on here yet.  It must be too early for the libs.   If you get a chance, tonight Fox News will be airing their interview with Mosab Hassan Yousef, the son of one of the Hamas leaders.  See article below.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,475226,00.html

The truth is that Hamas, Hezbollah, and all of the other terrorist organizations are organized and funded by Iran and Syria.  They don't care about the Palestinians period!  All they want is the total annihialtion of Israel, and they are using the Palestinians as a pawn.  Anyone with half a brain knows that by now.  It is time for Israel to wipe them out once and fo all.  And I'm not advocating war mind you, but Israel is our strongest ally in the middle east, and we shouldn't allow them to be destroyed.  It is a matter of time before we have to deal with Iran and Syria.  Maybe, just maybe there can be some kind of peace after that.

They don't just want their land. They want them annihilated.  Wiped off the face of the earth. 

They have made this clear, throughout history.

They are cowards. They use mosque's to hide in and attack those they hate, but if we attack a mosque, it's world war 3 with islam. It's war with them anyway so I say attack. They attack our religious buildings, people, children, behead innocent people. 

They are evil and need to be annihilated before they annihilate anyone else who does not adopt their sick views..   And that, is their ultimate goal in which they are quickly succeeding.

BUD MULLINS #4

"THERE ARE NO INNOCENT PEOPLE IN HAMAS...I WANT THEM ALL DEAD."

WELL, FOR ONCE WE AGREE. ACTUALLY, (I CHECKED THE BLOGS ON THE PALIN THREAD) WE NEVER REALLY DISAGREED...IT WAS MORE A MATTER OF SEMANTICS THAN ANYTHING ELSE.

THE PROBLEM HERE IS THIS: WHILE THE UNITED STATES IS CLEARLY BEHIND ISRAEL, WE HAVE CONSISTENTLY DILUTED THEIR ATTEMPTS TO TAKE CARE OF THE PROBLEM CORRECTLY...WHICH MEANS BOMBING THE LIVING SHIT OUT OF EVERYBODY WITHIN HAILING DISTANCE, INCLUDING IRAN.

I AM QUITE SURE THAT WE WILL ONCE AGAIN ATTEMPT TO PERSUADE ISRAEL TO RESTRAIN THEIR MILITARY RESPONSE, BUT I DON'T SEE THEM BACKING OFF THIS TIME. I HATE TO SAY THIS, BUT ISRAEL (AND THE US) NEEDS TO ADOPT THE SAME ATTITUDE HELD BY THE PALESTINIANS...IN OTHER WORDS, "WE WANT EVERYONE CONNECTED WITH HAMAS DEAD...EVERYONE!"

I BELIEVE THAT WE ARE PRESENTLY STARING DOWN THE BARREL OF A NUCLEAR WAR...BECAUSE OF IRAN, NOT HAMAS. EITHER WAY, BOTH NEED TO GO.

I FIND IT SOMEWHAT EMBARRASSING THAT THE US WILL NOT SUPPORT A FULL SCALE BLOWOUT. UNFORTUNATELY, INTERNAL COMBUSTION ALWAYS WINS OUT IN THESE SITUATIONS. WHEN WILL WE DO WHAT IT TAKES TO FREE OURSELVES FROM PETROLEUM SLAVERY? MAYBE NEVER. IN THE MEANTIME, WE ARE ALWAYS COMPROMISED BY OUR OWN CHEMICAL DEPENDANCE.
MAYBE THE US NEEDS A 28-DAY REHAB? 
ML SMITH

Nice blog ML Smith.  ;-)

http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/2009/...

Really, some fact checking from the conservative side would be nice.

JLTC.   What we have here, i seem to feel redundant, is a communiaction breakdown.

You guys need to make up your mind.  Either you hate the viet nam war or you hate the iraqi war, or you hate the buthering hamas being attacked when they are the aggressors, yet, you don't seem to mind Janet Reno and Clinton going in and massacring innocent "American Civilians" becasue you justify it as "relgious extremist"   When is the BS going to stop with you guys?

I mean, really, give me a friggen break!@

Let me keep it simple:   War is War.  Killing is Killing. Murder is Murder.  Abortion, war, whatever!@

You guys need to get a serious labotomy or something!

I mean, you make "men are from venus, women are from mars" or vica versa, totally look like, earth spoken language!

You guys are messed up!  Really, you really need to be re born or something.

We Americans, in our splendid isolation tend to make these pronouncements of "facts"......such as, "the aggressors Hamas"
DS makes a "truthful" assertion:
<<The truth is that Hamas, Hezbollah, and all of the other terrorist organizations are organized and funded by Iran and Syria.>>
Oh, to be sure Hamas is in fact going out of their way to provoke Israel.  But does anyone wonder why they do this?   It would seem that DS and others who support what ML Smith calls for:
"SUPPORT(for) A FULL SCALE BLOWOUT"
-miss the point.  Despite the fact that Hamas regularly kills innocent civilians does not necessarily give the opponents of Hamas any moral high ground to kill innocent women and children.  It simply feeds the cycle of violence that has gripped this region for the past 60 years.
It reduces Israel to the status of a terrorist state and The United States as a supporter of a terrorist state in the eyes of many world wide.

DDW: WRONG AGAIN AS USUAL!  I'm wondering if you ever read your bible...  Or, know anything about GLOBAL HISTORY.  ISRAEL MUST EXIST!  When Isral ceases to exist, we all go down the tube.  Radical Islam Extremist completely takes over and the whole world becomes a war torn empire of various tribe of terroirism.  All fighting and beheading each other.  There will be no America as we know it.  There will be no England or any Country as we know them today.

Personally, I don't have a gripe with anything you say except you need some facts along with it.  Terriorist are operating GLOBALLY as I write this!  What ever city you are in, there are there to.  They have time on their side.  If you are against their belief, you are an Infidel.  In their Religion, ALL INFIDELS MUST DIE...  They even get rewarded in the hereafter for killing you and me!  They get rewarded for killing themselves in the line of killing one or more of Infidels.  I'm pretty sure that living here in the Good Old US of A, in the shadow of the freedom we have, that the majority of people don't have a clue as to the seriousness of RADICAL ISLAM.

How soon we FREEE AMERICANS forget.  Remember 9-11?  Remember all the American Flags hanging from every pole, every house, every car?  Any direction you looked you could see countless American Flags.  Hanging from sides of buildings, on people's clothing, they were EVERYWHERE!  Ever wonder where they are at now?  The same society, the same people, just different views now.

The people of this nation knows little of the price that has been paid for the FREEDOM we have in the United States.  Everyone just wants to complain about whether or not a war was right or wrong.

WE ARE THREATENED BY TERRIORISM MORE TODAY THAN EVER IN THE HISTORY OF WAR.  WE ARE AT WAR WITH TERRIORIST.  Never in the history of our survival as a nation have we been threatened more.  Up until now we managed to fight America's Battles on foreign soil, preventing them from being faught here in our own back yards.  Wherther you agree with those wars or not, winning them made us what we are today.  I personally like us more than any other country I can think of!

So, do we support this war on Terriorism or not.  We should be praising any country that join us in the fight against global terriorism...  Do we have to sit back and complain about the Viet-Nam war or the Iraq War and ignore this one?  I say not...  This one might be the most important of all.  THINK ABOUT IT.

"Stealth" Jihad - hiding in plain sight

Dear Fellow Conservative:
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For a limited time, HUMAN EVENTS is making Robert Spencer's Stealth Jihad available to you absolutely FREE.
In Stealth Jihad, Robert Spencer explains the all-encompassing, even totalitarian, nature of the Islamic law that the stealth jihadists are laboring to impose upon us -- and shows the many ways in which this effort is advancing:

by taking advantage of political correctness among government and law enforcement officials that keeps them from even speaking about Islamic jihad, much less taking steps to resist it
by demanding, ever more shrilly, the accommodation of Muslim practices in public places, universities, schools, workplaces, and even banking and finance
by smearing and silencing anti-jihad and anti-terror voices in America and worldwide
by using "hate speech" laws to try to stifle analysis of the elements of Islam that jihadists use to justify violence
by transforming public school textbooks into tracts that proselytize for Islam
and even by infiltrating the highest levels of the American government.

CLICK HERE to learn more -- and to get your FREE hardcover copy of Robert Spencer's Stealth Jihad today.
Sincerely,

Thomas S. Winter
Editor in Chief, HUMAN EVENTS

davidwalters,
Nice to hear from you again.  And we are right back to the same place we started a few months ago.....the U.S. is "the bad guy" for killing innocents.  David, oh David, when will you ever understand?  The U.S. doesn't "enjoy" killing anyone......something you CAN'T say about Islamic Terrorists!  Even though you say you don't believe in God, you still read the bible and have a strong appreciation for Jesus and His words.  I suspect that you even believe that we (U.S.) have been given a special place in history, and that we have been a very positive force for good in the world.  And to what other nations can you ascribe this same influence?  We don't go out of our way to look for fights David, you know that.  But we do stand up for countries who need help in protecting themselves from evil dictators and regimes.  I know you will want to argue this point, but please don't go there.  We've argued that enough. 

I wish Israel (and the Palestinians) could enjoy peace merely by the absence of violence, but that won't/can't happen as we know.  Seems to me they are being forced to defend themselves, and we need to support them in this case.  Islamic Terrorism MUST be defeated!!

So when we're attacked, like we were on 911, if we respond to defend ourselves and some innocent bystanders are at the wrong place at the wrong time, we're terrorist?

This applies to anyone attacked, any nation, any people.

If someone comes into my home, I am not going to allow them to put me or my family in harms way without a fight.  I will also not pull out a sling shot.  I am going to be on the offensive and get him before he gets me or my family.

David, truly that is beyond foolish!

I think that these liberals who keep saying that Israel shouldn't attack Hamas would try to negotiate with someone who was raping their wife, mother or sister.  They have no guts.

It's amazing to me that so many people seem to be willing to deny Israel the basic right to defend itself and it's citizens.
The United Nations Security Council even has a resolution before it, put forth by Libya, that would denounce Israel and attempt to force it to stop it's attacks, while at the same time, making no mention of the rocket attacks by Hamas. The United States is blocking that resolution, as they should.

From The Political and Financial Markets Commentator at http://politicsandfinance.blogspot.com. Please visit to read the full story and to sign-up for daily updates by feed or email.

Much Talk Of Disproportionate Response
Contrary to the opinions of many in the governments and media around the world condeming Israel, I do not believe that collateral damage and death of civilians is in any way the goal of this exercise.
People bring up the concept of a disproportionate response by Israel, but it, like any country, wants to protect its' citizens and borders from the missiles that are indiscriminately aimed at it, with the sole purpose of KILLING MEN, WOMEN AND CHILDREN.
Make no mistake, if Hamas had more powerful missiles with greater range they would use them in the same way they are using the current ones. If they had other types of weapons they would use them too. Does anyone think that there aren't other countries that are feeding them arms, and that the nature of those arms will only escalate over time?

How many civilian Palestinian citizens do you think love Israel?  NONE!  This includes Men, Women and Children!  THERE ARE NO INNOCENT PALESTINIAN PEOPLE...  Even with that being true, I'll bet Israel is being as careful as possible to preserve as many of the civilians as they can.  THEY ARE A PEACE LOVING, GOD FEARING NATION!  They don't just go out and kill for the fun of it.

DS....asserts that  i think the U.S. is "the bad guy"
<<the U.S. is "the bad guy" for killing innocents.>>
.....in this situation in Gaza.
- No, Hanas is the bad guy.  But our policies in that region have been consistently wrong.  It can be argued that Hamas as a political power in Gaza is a result of our failed policies.
DS futher claims....<<The U.S. doesn't "enjoy" killing anyone>>
-Yet we  support Israel in their policy which leads to the death of large numbers of non-combatants
(while paying lip service to "be careful to not hurt civilians)-in a crowded area like Gaza......
<>
DS, if we have been given that special place in history, we blew it in February of 1945 when we rain napalm on Dresden.  What good came of that?   Germany was already defeated;  we were simply using German civilians as guinea pigs to assertain the effects of 'new weapons".  How special of us, makes me proud to be an American.
<<But we do stand up for countries who need help in protecting themselves from evil dictators>>
-Do we?  How did we protect against evil dictators such as Samoza, or how exactlt did we improve the lot of Chilians when we murdered Allende?
You forget we in fact supported Sadam when it served our interests to hurt the Iranians back in the 1980's.
Don't kid yourself about the shining beacon of freedom America is supposed to represent.

Michael Haltman:
<<Much Talk Of Disproportionate Response
Contrary to the opinions of many in the governments and media around the world condeming Israel, I do not believe that collateral damage and death of civilians is in any way the goal of this exercise.
People bring up the concept of a disproportionate response by Israel, but it, like any country, wants to protect its' citizens and borders from the missiles that are indiscriminately aimed at it, with the sole purpose of KILLING MEN, WOMEN AND CHILDREN.>>
-So it is ok to target an area with an airstrike at a location YOU know is going to result in civilian deaths.  That's different from shooting a backyard rocket, lobbing it 6 miles toward some Israelis, maybe killing a few.
So long as the goal has result of "Doing Good"
Collateral damage and disproportionate response is  not an image on TV.
It is something real that happens to real people like you & me.
Is is terrorism in it's most brutal and cynical form ever......every bit, if not more brutal to a Hamas bombing.

david,

Since you continue to stand up for terrorists and refuse to acknowledge the moral differences between their actions and the actions of peace loving nations, I will no longer respond to any of your posts.  All you ever do is try to place blame for all of the worlds problems on the U.S. without providing solutions to the problems.  Were you ever told to stop complaining UNLESS you have a solution?  I recommend that to you David!

DS, (23)
-Part of the solution.....
<<Were you ever told to stop complaining UNLESS you have a solution?>>
Would be for a bit of reality to pass into the mass American conscience.....
-The reality that of U.S. support for corrupt dictators (like,Mohammad Reza Shah Pahlavi) is in part, the reason that so many in this world do not like us.
DS, you speak of the
<<the moral differences between their actions and the actions of peace loving nations>>
in the context of so-called "Bad nations" such Iran as opposed to "peace loving nations" such as America.
-Where was our moral high ground when Henry Kissinger and the CIA conspired to murder the freely elected head of state of Chile (Salvador Allende in 1973).
Yes, a bit of knowledge instead of rhetoric would be part of a solution.
No, you won't respond to my posts perhaps because of my superior argument,and maybe it would be difficult for you to face the truth about this once great nation i love.  I don't support terrorism......that's why i don't want America joining the ranks of terrorists states.

David Walters


I commend you for your persistence on this site.  Clearly, you don't tire easily.  


I challenge any of you to blog your thoughts on a progressive website.  Read other opinions and put down your own.  See how well you can make your points.  Maybe UC himself could go, since he claims he can out-debate any "liberal" argument.  You call a terrorist a terrorist, but when a nation that you support commits the same atrocities, oftentimes on a much larger scale, you see it in a different light. You DEFEND it.  Why?  


Go to: commondreams.org   


Both Democrats and Republicans have shown time and time again that they will not act in the best interests of us, the common people.  The question is: why do we continue to support them?

pleasehelp (25)......
writes:   <<(Both Democrats and Republicans)....The question is: why do we continue to support them?>>
Good question, since every administration since 1945 has engaged our once great nation into disastrous foreign policy (-except maybe Dwight D. Eisenhower).  Maybe it is the Military Industrial Complex Ike spoke of has far to much say in crafting policy that affects us.   Remember, it is F-16s & Apache helicopters killing babies in Gaza are made in good ol USA.

From commondreams.org  
(thanx pleasehelp)
-we learn Israelis are using White Phosphorus in crowded Gaza.  If they claim they are only targeting Hamas militants i tend to view this as a lie.  As a weapon, white phosphorus is intended to bring agonizing injuries to people in a wide area.....it burns flesh down to the bone and the only way to stop it from burning is to take a knife and cut it out!  If i saw a child injured with this stuff, i would pick up a weapon and begin killing Israelis myself...........i'd be enraged!
So many conservatives take such a cavalier atitude about war like responses to Hamas in Gaza.  Over 200 civilians have been killed, how many more suffer from agonizing injuries, i don't know.  But these actions will only harden more Palistinian and Moslem hearts against Americans&Israel, hearts that have already been hardened by 60+ years of U.S. foriegn policy that as a whole, has been a disaster.

If the people of Palestine do not like the current position that they are in then they should not have allowed Hamas in to their land. They should not have willingly let them setup rocks in their homes, bombs in their schools, and used their Masques as bases.

The Palestine wants peace, then rejecting Hamas and any other militant organization that is in their mist that wants to destroy Israel is what they have to do.

So according to you David, we should just roll over and let them do what they want. CIVILIAN CASUALTIES are a price of war. Do you David trully think that any war can be fought where there are no civilian casulties. Exspecially in todays battlefield, where the enemy does not have bases, does not wear a uniform, and has no qualms of setting bombs off in populated areas .

What would be your solution David? You love to critizes everyone else but you never have a solution of your own.

WOW!  I cannot believe some people are so blind to the facts.  Talk about school rooms with school children in them - Who do you think are in those school rooms with the children?  Who teaches them?  Talk about churches - Masques.  Do you think the Hamas stays out of the churches because there are civilians in there?  You're nuts if you think so.  The go into the churches, schools, homes, businesses and every other building in Gaza.  THE PEOPLE OF GAZA WELCOMES THIS.  So, who's side are they on?  Sure not the jews, they are the enemy of Israel?  WOW AGAIN!  A nut case could see what's going on here.  It kind of makes me sick when people say "STOP KILLING INNOCENT PEOPLE IN GAZA!"  There are NO INNOCENT people in Gaza.  Every one of them hates Israel.  It has been taught to them down through the ages.  That is their purpose of existance so they believe.  You must understand that Radical Islam teaches and believes that there is no rest or place for them until Israel is entirly wipped out.  They believe it wont happen as long as one of them is living.

I support Israel, let them kill their enemy be it men, women, children or animals!  Do what they must...  ISRAEL WILL NEVER REST UNTIL THIS IS DONE...

JarrodM you hit the nail on the head again!


Because of the  hate for Israel / the jews,  the palestinians are allowing it and evidentally give their blessing to it. 


They sympathize and empathize with hamas and their hate for Israel greatly exceeds their sense of what's right or wrong.


Obtaining peace, common sense, insuring their children will live,  much less live productive, healthy, safe lives, takes a back seat to their justification of whom they want to destroy. 


They may resent hamas and think they can get rid of them later, but that will never happen.  They have made a trade off, the palestinians.  


Two wrongs don't make a right but in their minds, the annihlation of Israel is worth the sacrafice. 


That being the case, they are the ones who are willing to throw it all away for the hate they hold in their hearts.  


They then should stop whining and take their medicine.

Israel needs to stand their ground! 


What if that was this country?  Actually we are next.


They have deeply seeded and intrenched themselves into our society, politics, religion on and on.  They have been a sleeping giant in this country, our politicians are sleeping with the enemy and they are getting ready to stike.


We won't know what hit us........that is those who are blind and refuse to see the signs.


Our government isn't telling us what we need to know for worry of chaos and hysterical fear.


The hamas/terrorist are a patient people.  They are waiting like a lion hiding in the shrubs with their den ready to pounce, any time now.


We are the most vulnerable we have ever been. 


Isreal must fight!  We must fight as well.  911 was nothing compared to what we are about to experience.


If you don't believe that, you are foolish.

<<  Do you think the Hamas stays out of the churches because there are civilians in there?  You're nuts if you think so. >>
So, Bud.....where would you fight from(if you were fighting for your freedom in Gaza)?  Is there like "designated fighting zones" in Gaza for combatants to utilize?  Hummm........
<<There are NO INNOCENT people in Gaza.>>
So it IS OK to us white phosphorus rounds where there is a good chance a chunk of it will most likely land on a child.....?(you are a right to lifer, aren't you?)
I sure as hell don't agree with Hamas or their tactics...........but we descend to their level when we support the use of barbaric weapons to kill or otherwise punish children caught in a crowded urban area like Gaza.
So much for the "morality" of our cause.

Hi David!  Missed ya!


What do think would be the solution?

Yoo Hoo...David.  You there? 


I made a mistake in my spelling anyway.


Let me try this again:


"What do You think would be the solution?"


;-)

Here is some good reading that might better shape your opinions of this whole situation:


http://bbsnews.net/article.php/20090101212318310



http://www.ifamericansknew.org/



http://www.alternet.org/audits/116855/



Please read.  It will benefit you and everyone else you come into contact with.  


I would also like to know where the Palestinians should fight from.  Please consider that they were invaded and live an urban area barely larger than NYC, populated by over 1.5 million people.  Maybe they could all meet up at the local park?

From CNN:
Tuesday was the bloodiest day of the Israeli ground offensive to date, when Israeli shelling struck a U.N. school in northern Gaza that was being used as a shelter by hundreds of civilians.
The Israeli military said Hamas militants were firing mortars from the school, prompting an artillery strike that killed at least 40 people and wounded dozens more. U.N. officials said there were no militants at the school.
"We are 99.9 percent certain that there were no militants. There were no militant activities in the school or in the school compound," said Gunness of the U.N. Relief and Works Agency.

So, what's your point?

how long did it take for the u.n. to assertain this and who did they ask? hamas? sympathizers?  israel? who?

All you psychopathic conservatives refuse to embrace reality. Israel has never been innocent. From its beginning, the leaders in Israel have endorsed policies aimed at gaining more land from surrounding areas to secure resource and power.  Zionist leader Chaim Weizmann, who would become the first president of Israel, in 1919 included the Litani valley among the “minimum requirements essential to the realization of the Jewish National Home.” David Ben-Gurion, Israel’s first prime minister, proposed including the Litani again in the 1940s on the eve of the creation of the Jewish state. In the 1950s, historical records show, Moshe Dayan, then chief of staff of the Israel Defense Forces, and others favored occupying and ultimately annexing southern Lebanon up to the Litani River.

The hate of the Palestinians is very understable (though I don't condone the violence). Israel has shown itself to be brutal, violent, and willing to torture civilians and military personnel alike. The country is a disgrace and should not be supported by the U.S. Neither should the Hamas leadership. But without knowledge, you ultra-sophomoric conservatives are only spouting rhetoric that you hear from right-wing talk radio. You are sad little people and I feel sorry for your families and neighbors.

From Wikipedia (of course all you Zionists will spout that Wikipedia is against you too)


In October 2003, the United States vetoed a United Nations Security Council resolution, which stated:

The construction by Israel, the occupying power, of a wall in the Occupied Territories departing from the armistice line of 1949 is illegal under relevant provisions of international law and must be ceased and reversed.

The United Kingdom, Germany, Bulgaria, and Cameroon abstained from the vote. The justification given by the U.S. for the veto was that the resolution did not condemn terrorist attacks made by Palestinian groups (see Negroponte doctrine). The United States, however, has been condemned by some countries for its support of the barrier.
One week later, on October 21, a similar (though non-binding) resolution (ES-10/13) was passed by the UN General Assembly 144-4 with 12 abstentions. The resolution said the barrier was "in contradiction to international law", and demanded that Israel "stop and reverse" its construction. Israel called the resolution a "farce".

[edit] Process of the ICJ
In December 2003, the United Nations General Assembly passed a resolution requesting the International Court of Justice (ICJ) to make a non-binding advisory opinion on the "legal consequences arising" from the construction of the barrier.
The hearings began in February 2004. The Palestinian Authority is not a member of the court but was allowed to make a submission by virtue of being a UN observer and a co-sponsor of the General Assembly resolution. In January 2004, the court also authorized the League of Arab States and the Organisation of the Islamic Conference to make submissions.
Israel initially announced that it would cooperate with the court, while noting that advisory rulings of the ICJ are not binding. Israel later made a written submission to the court rejecting the authority of the court to rule on the case, but announced (on February 12, 2004) that it would not appear at the court to make oral submissions.
On January 30, 2004, Israel announced officially it did not recognize ICJ authority to rule over the barrier issue. Israel also dispatched a 120 page document, elaborating on the security needs to build the "terror prevention fence" and purporting to demonstrate the atrocities committed by Palestinian terrorists. The document also included a judicial part with legal accounts supporting Israel's claim that the issue of the barrier is political and not in the ICJ authority.
On 23, 24, and 25 February 2004 the hearings before the International Court of Justice took place in the Peace Palace at the Hague.

Are you from the United States?  If so, BEAT IT!

RampantHypocrisy is who he represents and evidentally, where he resides in his mind.

Rampant,

I think you are highly influenced by left wing propoganda just as much as you claim that conservatives are influenced by "right wing" talk radio.  So, the real question becomes "who is right?"  I'm sure both sides can quote a lot of history to prove their position, but does that make either one right?  I don't think so.  Everyone wants to look at the symptoms of the real issue to determine this rather than look at the root cause. 

First, it wasn't the Palestinians or Arabs in general who were almost completely annihilated by the Nazis, it was the Jews!  Second, the land of Israel/Palestine has NEVER been totally owned by one or the other groups.  There has ALWAYS been fighting in that region, and the land has been occupied and re-occupied many times by opposing nations/groups.  So Palestinians are wrong to claim such.  Third, the "real" issue here is that all of the Arab/Muslim countries have ONE and ONLY ONE objective here....the total destruction of Israel!!!  They will never be satisfied with anything else.  ALL other demands for peace/land are nothing but a hoax, designed to keep the war against Israel going!  Be honest about this, or we will NEVER resolve this conflict.  Israel is entitled to defend itself!  If we were being attacked by Canada or Mexico, I guarantee you we would defend ourselves, and we should!  I can also state without doubt that if Israel laid down their arms, the "Palestinians/Arabs" would NOT do the same.  This IS the crux of the matter.  STOP trying to make it something that it is not!  Until Hamas, Hezbollah, and all of the forces behind them are dealt with properly by the U.N., NOTING will be resolved!  So, I say that we should stay out of Israel's business, and let them do what they need to do to protect themselves.  Maybe they can end the war by defeating the real enemy in this, just as we are in a war against the same enemy.....radical Islam. 

And

RampantHypocrisy, no one said anyone is innocent.  That's your warped, biased misinterpretation of what you perceive our "support" for them, to be.


None of the nations of the world are innocent, especially this one. 


You have "tunnelvision"

DS, you're my hero!  


;-)

2bluestarmom,

Thanks, but actually, you are MY hero!!  I'm proud to be your brother in Christ!!  God bless you sister, and keep up the good work of spreading the "truth" even though many do not want to hear it.  I love you sis!!

You are all warped...your sense of reality has been so corrupted that true evidence in this world is ignored. This has been the case for centuries in power-oriented organizations based upon religion. The goal of your "religious" organization is a consolidation of wealth, resource, and power and unfortunately, you, are the slaves of those at the top of the organization. You heap praise upon each other for supporting the "wisdom" of those who have told what to think. Without any intellectual pursuit of ideas, you are lost and are a sad part of humanity. I only wish that one day your closed minds could be opened, but I fear that to be impossible. May your DNA not be spread through more generations, for it breeds the hate, fear, violence and intolerance in this world. If a sentient "God" existed, the entity would be ashamed of your behavior and rhetoric. Please cease to disgrace the human race.

DS,
Your rationalization of Israel's behavior is invalid. Bringing up a hypothetical such "Canada or Mexico invading the U.S" is ridiculous, since the United States is the country who was landgrabbing in North America. Based upon a Manifest Destiny that even Israel's founders and leaders have embraced, it is easy to understand the hate by Palestinians and Lebanese alike. Israel has without provocation made a policy of gaining land and resource and has threatened war if it doesn't receive what the Zionists have called theirs. That is not to say that many instances of violence were without provocation. There has been plenty of that.  But to justify every bit of Israel's behavior with the Holocaust is academically unsound and has been refuted by a huge majority of sociogeopolitical scientists and scholars. But, you will refuse to take any of this into account, because you, as 2bluestarmom said, have "tunnelvision" and the only ones to make it out of the tunnel into the light of Zion will be the Chosen of God. What a tragic world we will live in if the intolerant and intellectually challenged who believe these Zionist lies retain the power that they have fought so hard to achieve.

The rampant hypocrisy of "religious" people has never been so apparent as in the three major monotheistic religions: Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. All of you sheep are a disgrace to humankind.

And so, the thought police have erased my posts, because any discussion that does not conform to your beliefs is not allowed in a forum

Sincerely,
the proof of rampant hypocrisy

I read with this blog with interest, looking at the differing views of posters. However, I was a little disappointed when I saw one the posters thoughts deleted. If you can't allow debate on sides of the issue, then what use is your discussion? I found nothing about rampants posts to be offensive, except possibly to people who believe differently. I find that to be very one-sided and it shows a lot about this site.

Awe....shucks!

;-)

DS


First, it wasn't the Palestinians or Arabs in general who were almost completely annihilated by the Nazis, it was the Jews!


What is your point? So I have to assume you think Native Americans should begin a violent uprising here in the USA, killing innocent civilians and all ancestors of the white men who committed a mass genocide on their people, right?  I'm following your reasoning.


the "real" issue here is that all of the Arab/Muslim countries have ONE and ONLY ONE objective here....the total destruction of Israel... Maybe they can end the war by defeating the real enemy in this, just as we are in a war against the same enemy.....radical Islam. 

Quite the statement.  ALL?  Can you back that with facts?  Why do you think Hamas gained so much popularity?  Do you realize that the Palestinians are being OCCUPIED?  Do you not understand that occupation and an oppressive/violent foreign policy (specifically, our own) tends to fan the flames of hatred and militancy?  The USA and Israel are never going to solve any problems by continuing to attack, occupy, and oppress predominantly Arab countries.  Indeed, radicalism and islamic terrorism are a DIRECT CONSEQUENCE of these actions.  Do you know any muslims?  Just like christians, jews, buddhists, etc. they are predominantly good people looking for peace and happiness, but when there land is OCCUPIED and their people subjected to economic sanctions, deprived of basic needs, and violently attacked, they do exactly what you would do: they fight back.  Supporting this OCCUPATION is not making you safer, nor is it making Israelis safer.  

An informative article on Hamas rise to power, please read:


http://www.alternet.org/audits/116855/



So, I say that we should stay out of Israel's business, and let them do what they need to do to protect themselves.



If you live in the USA, you aren't staying out of Israel's business. Take a look:


http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/usaid.html

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/



Voices of Israeli dissent, please read:



http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20090106_is...



Both Democrats and Republicans have shown time and time again that they will not act in the best interests of us, the common people.  The question is: why do we continue to support them?

The land of Jesus native friends?, his Apostols, surely, Archangel Gabriel news brang greather mision to Maria than the ordinary prophet aubdictions.
And, on soFla., hamas slogan is "go back to the oven, you need a big oven, source: Schnittshow, today"
But now the "news fashion" is the anti-Palin or Romney machinery (my sister was beattened last night for "her boyfriend, Amy's brother Ryan, Amy: bho strategist, on Miami acorn is the kgbkind of ORG$ doing the castrokind of logistics, acorn has my or anybody's info, on pdcruissers or  judges like Pedraza's laptops.

pleasehelp,

Your liberal and/or "make love, not war" hippie websites do NOTHING other than spread hate and evil on the subject!  First, DON'T compare what the U.S. provides to "legally recognized (by most intelligent and truthful people) nations such as Israel to what we provide to unrecognized states such as the Palestinian territories.  They are NOT recognized as a nation by the U.N., nor should they be at this point.  If they can rid themselves of terrorist control and begin to act like a civilized nation then they may become recognized.  Until then, they are getting exactly what they deserve.  Yes, there are peace loving Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank, but they are allowing themselves to be controlled by terrorists who want nothing less than the destruction of Israel.  Even after Israel has given up a lot of their territory to the Palestinians, they aren't satisfied.  And we ALL know that they never will be satisfied.  So your arguments are falling on deaf ears.  If you really feel sorry for the Palestinians, protest against Hamas and Hezbollah.  Do SOMETHING to stop them!!  Then we will be in a position to talk.  Until then, you are nothing more than a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.  There are some who will believe your garbage, but there are many who know the truth, and will not be swayed by your garbage!  My solution to the conflict is to convince the surrounding Arab nations to allow the Palestinians to live in their countries.  Why do you think that isn't going to happen?  Simple, they don't want peace fot he Palestinian people.  They want Israel destroyed!!  Get real pleasehelp!!  Spend more time on convincing the Arab nations to let the Palestinian people in, and less time on spreading your hate and lies!!    Go away!!

You know this fight is America's fight to...  Those guys also hate us.  I was born in the USA, raised in the USA, served in the Military for the USA and I would go fight for Israel today the same as I would the USA.

"If the enemies of Israel disposed of their weapons and declared peace in that region, there WOULD be peace in that region. On the contrary, if Israel disposed of their weapons and declared peace, there WOULD be 8 million dead Jews."


Well now, that's actually a good point.  Maybe it's been said before, but this perspective is a fresh one for me.
http://rightklik.net/

Think about this, if Radical Islam would quit killing themselves and others, there would be peace in nearly every continent of the world.  If you think about it, it's not just in Israel.  IT REALLY IS ALL OVER THE WORLD!  It will never be stopped unless it is KILLED...

They've been fighting in that area since anyone began writing history down.

What makes anyone think it's just going to "stop"?

- AP
http://aaronproctor.wordpress.com

Hamas vows to continue being cowards and attacking people who didn't do anything to them?

Wow...big surprise lol.

http://poorrepublican.today.com/

DS


Go away?  Throwing a tantrum and yelling "go away" doesn't make your argument very strong.  In fact, it reminds me of a toddler's reaction when he/she feels threatened.  NAME ONE "LIE" THAT I HAVE STATED.  To accuse me of spreading hate is borderline insane.


I'm here for discussion and I try to instill a different viewpoint into the same old, same old, blogging that any specialized site provides.  I try to back my opinions with concrete evidence, so that you understand my reasoning.  I understand that war and violence is and always has been part of this world and I do believe that war/violence is sometimes necessary.  Please address some of this:


Do you agree that Palestine is OCCUPIED by Israel?  Do you realize the conditions that an occupation creates?  


Do you think that violent foreign policy, sanctions, and occupation is an effective way to STOP radicalism and terrorism?  Is it quite possible that these actions AGITATE radicalism and terrorism?  Is it quite possible that the Palestinian people support Hamas as a direct result of occupation?  Is it possible that you would do the same if you were in there shoes?



How do you differentiate what is and what isn't terrorism as far as Hamas and Israel go?  Please explain to me how hamas is a terrorist org. and Israel is not.  


Are you seriously suggesting that all Palestinians should just up and move into other countries?  You are suggesting that as a serious solution to this problem?  That is so ridiculous on so many levels that I don't even know how to formulate a response.


Aaron:
"They've been fighting in that area since anyone began writing history down."



Taking this position as a beginning and an end is childish and counterproductive.  Push it away, give up.  Of course, it's not going to just "stop."  It will stop, or at least take dramatic steps back, when the realities of the situations are addressed.  Part of this is condemning groups with terrorist leanings, such as hamas.  Another part is acknowledging that the policies of countries like Israel and the US, often violent and oppressive, are the instruments that give rise to groups like Hamas.  These policies give hamas credibility among the people because the occupied and oppressed begin to see that they have no other options. Please READ this article:


http://www.alternet.org/audits/116855/



Try to make your points without using words such as "liberal" and "hippie" as they make any argument look weak and childish.

Please read this, as it contains good history and reasoning, as well as remarkable foresight:


http://www.kinghussein.gov.jo/kabd_eng.html

@pleasehelp

"How do you differentiate what is and what isn't terrorism as far as Hamas and Israel go?  Please explain to me how hamas is a terrorist org. and Israel is not."

If you can't understand that on your own there's no helping you. 

Ask the doctor to please turn off the life support, as your brain is already long gone.

http://poorrepublican.today.com/

Pleasehelp, I respect anyone's opinion.  That is their right.  Your's seems to be only to justify your position on Terriorism vs. the World.  I want to congratulate you on your choice of words but the subject here is not whether Israel is a Terriorist Nation or not.  The subject is on terriorism and Radical Islam.

Please use your intellect and explain to me the orgin of Radical Islam, to include were they are at today and what they are doing and what is their goals.  You might add the countries that are strictly Radical Terriorist Countries by name also.

I will await your answer.  I'm sure there are others wanting to hear the answer also.

pleasehelp,

Are you seriously suggesting that all Palestinians should just up and move into other countries?  You are suggesting that as a serious solution to this problem?  That is so ridiculous on so many levels that I don't even know how to formulate a response.

Yes, I'm serious!  I stand by my proposal for a solution to the problem.  There will NEVER be a solution that works as long as radical Islam and it's supporters are alive.  Israel will NEVER give up.  They will NOT allow the new age Nazi's to do what their predecessors did to them....and I don't think anyone would!  None of you tree huggers have a solution to the problem outside of Israel relinquishing all of their land to the Palestians, or maybe worse.    It doesn't take a rocket scientist to look at the moral values between the two opposing sides and figure out which side is evil.  Radical Islam IS EVIL!!  As long as the Palestinians support radical Islam, they will suffer.  And since they don't appear to understand that concept, they will surely suffer.  The "civilized" nations of the world have spoken in agreement.  Radical Islam will NOT succeed!!  So I repeat....go away hippie!!

Pleasehelp,

Are you suggesting that Israel has not the right to exist?

http://blog.openlyconservative.com

DS....59
Since Hamas is "evil", that gives Israel the moral authority to use white phosphorus rounds against targets that will most certainly include civilians?
I agree that Hamas are some bad actors, but don't you think that some of Israel's methods lowers them (morally) to the same level as Hamas?

david,

We're still waiting for your solution!  Remember, don't complain unless you have a solution.  What is your solution?  I provided my solution, now it's time for yours.  Or else you can just go away like pleasehelp should do.  Neither of you offer any solutions....only complaining about the greatest nation in history.  NOBODY ever said we were perfect, but we are head and shoulders above everyone else.  And if you don't think so, you and pleaehelp are always free to leave and go to whatever nation you feel is better.   End of conversation UNTIL you provide your solution to Palestinian and radical Islam problems.

I wrote a blog yesterday, Israel: The Subject of Yet Another UN Resolution at The Political and Financial Markets Commentator at http://politicsandfinance.blogspot.com, and then posted on Ecademy which is a primarily European social website.

The comments were both predictable and illuminating as to the fact that Israel will never be given due process by the majority of countries and news media around the world.

It goes under the title of don't let the facts get in the way of the truth.  You can see the post and comments at http://www.ecademy.com/node.php?id=120404

DS 62.....
There was a solution once to solve a problem.  "The Final Solution"......it was genocide then, just as your solution is now.
I find it ironic that many Israelis&Americans embrace Hitler's Final Solution and now want to apply it to Palestinians who have the audacity to inhabit land that was given to a Jewish state by someone other than those who actually lived there.  I bet i'd act a bit radical if some foreign country gave my land away.

david,

What in the world are you talking about?  NOBODY wants to see genocide of ANY people....unless you're like Saddam Hussein, Iran, Syria, Hammas, Hezbollah, or any number of other EVIL people/nations on this earth!!  For God's sake David.....wake up and look at reality!!  Israel would drop their weapons and live in peace with the Palestinians IMMEDIATELY "if" they could ensure that they wouldn't continue to be attacked and threatened by the "evil outsiders" who have hijacked the Palestinian cause in order to rpomote their own!  Get serious David and STOP spreading hate and discontent when you could be speaking truth about the situation.  My proposal is one that COULD work if the Arab countries would just ALLOW the Palestinians to live with them.  But they won't!  Why, because they aren't concerned about the Palestinians at all!!!  They ONLY want Israel destroyed!  SO, I ask you again David.  WHAT is yuor solution?

Are you really this opposed to providing your solution?  What is your motive David?  Seriously, if David had the power and ability to resolve this conflict once and for all, what would you do?

DS (65)
-WHAT AM I TALKING ABOUT?
Hamas(radical Islam) was elected by the voters of Gaza, so i suppose ALL of the voters of Gaza are evil people, so by your own reckoning.......

<<There will NEVER be a solution that works as long as radical Islam and it's supporters are alive>>-DS (59)

-Genocide is your solution.

As for my solution?  The world would be better served if America didn't lend Israel a hand in this mess. 

"The United Nations has asked Israel to investigate Red Cross allegations that Israeli soldiers stationed outside damaged houses refused access to relief workers despite knowledge of wounded civilians languishing inside. All the papers report that relief workers found four children nestled under blankets next to their dead mothers."
-http://www.slate.com/id/2208279/
No, i don not think it is in the best interests of our country to assist Israel.

david,

You might be right as far as radical Islam goes.  They NEED to be eliminated since it is THEY who hide behind innocent civilians and go out of their way to target innocents as a means to their ends.  Yes, they NEED to be killed...as quickly as we can!!

So, you obviously have NO solution, and that's ok because most people of your ilk don't either.  Their solutions to ALL of the world's problems are to blame the U.S. for them.....even though WE are the ones who fight for their freedom and provide almost ALL of the humanitarian support that they receive.  I find it hard to believe that we continue to be the "light of the world" as the same countries that we are providing assistance to hate us and call us names.  God will sort this all out in due time David.  Of course you don't understand that since you don't believe in God.

<<Their solutions to ALL of the world's problems are to blame the U.S. for them.....even though WE are the ones who fight for their freedom and provide almost ALL of the humanitarian support that they receive. >>
DS,
We Americans have such a good track record when it comes to providing freedom.  Salvador Allende comes to mind, or perhaps the Shah of Iran.
We may not want to remember the past, but our past keeps coming back to haunt us in something called Blow back. 
What has been gained for America in it's support of Israels claim to Palestinian land? 
Hundreds of U.S. Marines died in Beiruit in 1983......for what?   We are not hated for our freedom, DS........we are hated around the world for the trouble our policies cause.  My solution is for us to quit trying to divine god's will and disengage from being the perennial antagonist to the world.

<<Their solutions to ALL of the world's problems are to blame the U.S. for them.....even though WE are the ones who fight for their freedom and provide almost ALL of the humanitarian support that they receive. >>
DS,
We Americans have such a good track record when it comes to providing freedom.  Salvador Allende comes to mind, or perhaps the Shah of Iran.
We may not want to remember the past, but our past keeps coming back to haunt us in something called Blow back. 
What has been gained for America in it's support of Israels claim to Palestinian land? 
Hundreds of U.S. Marines died in Beirut in 1983......for what?   We are not hated for our freedom, DS........we are hated around the world for the trouble our policies cause.  My solution is for us to quit trying to divine god's will and disengage from being the perennial antagonist to the world.

david,

So why haven't you been willing to share what you really believe David?  You are an isolationist.  That's cool.  I could support that as well.  Stay out of everyone's business...and STOP providing all of the humanitarian support to them as well since it "offends" them for us to do anything but dish out the doe.   Yeah, I think we could all live with that.  Let's do it!

oh yeah....that also means that we just stand by and let all of the evil dictators around the world commit genocide against their own people.  Sounds like a great, moral plan to me David.

<<.......that also means that we just stand by and let all of the evil dictators around the world commit genocide against their own people>>
-DS (72)
All i can say is read the history of American foreign policy, and you'll see that MANY of the "evil dictators" of the past half century are the direct result of U.S. foreign policy & CIA interference.  Augusto Pinochet came to power in Chile with Nixon's help, Mohammad Rezā Shāh Pahlavi was propped up by numerous administrations since 1953 and he is one of the reasons the United States is hated so much in Iran to this day.  These are just two examples.
There was a time i was a "red-blooded, god fearing American" who thought much like you DS that the U.S.A. was god's anointed instrument of peace and justice.  Over time, reality set in and i see things differently.  Ike's call to beware if the "military industrial complex" resonates with me today in light of my past military service.  Our great military has become a huge cash cow for a few in this country; Ike was in a position to know, and it has been many of the special interest members of the MIC that charts U.S. foreign policy.
Bring our troops home.  We can't even secure our own borders........how the hell does one suppose we can secure Afghanisan's border?  Not only would it save taxpayers lots of cash, it would save lives in the long run.
Israel, deprived of American support would have to begin serious negotiations, which would include returning portions of Jerusalem to the Palistinians.  Yes, it is time for some isolationist thinking with respect to our foreign policy.........something that served our country well, something George Washington warned us of over 200 years ago.

"Some moderate Arab politicians will even tell you that the explosion in Gaza is part of a vast plot by Tehran and Damascus that would use both violence and voting to dominate the region. And if so, the strategy would seem to be working."
-http://www.newsweek.com/id/178115
Rage&Resentment permeates the politics of the middle east.  These people are perfectly willing to commit to martyrdom, much as any American would if our nation were to be under the thumb of foreign governments.  Just look at how American history idealizes The Alamo.  DS, there is no easy solution to the Palestinian issue.......all i can discern is that our past policies haven't worked-AT ALL.
A real solution would involve understanding and learning.  We see the mindless violence of terrorists and wonder why they do the things they do, and why they seem to be embraced by most  Islamic people.  Hamas was elected by the people of Gaza.....don't you ever wonder why?  On ther surface it appears to be quite insane for them to do that, but upon closer inspection, it becomes readily apparent.

david,

Who is to say that the elections were fair?  I don't trust what I hear from any news source over there....and most over here!  They are all anti-Israel and anti-U.S.   But even IF Hamas was elected fairly, I can tell you the main reason.  As you know Hamas is a three-headed monster....political, humanitarian, and military.  I'm sure most of the Palestinians who voyed for them were looking for their humanitarian help.  What a disguise huh?  Hamas, Hezbollah, all of them provide aid to their puppets in order to gain the support of the people they want to control.  Hmmmm, sounds a lot like what happens in ALL socialist societies doesn't it?  It also sounds a lot like what's happening in our own country!  And after the get control of the people, they have them for good....until a major revolt occurs.....similar to what happened when our GREAT nation was formed.  David, I don't LOVE war, but sometimes it is enevitable as you have said.  And after 9/11, the world has changed!  It will NEVER be the same UNTIL radical Islam is totally annihilated....TOTALLY!  This will not be easy, and will take a long time (as President Bush has always said), but it MUST be completed!  As far as your idea of giving half of Jerusalem back to the Palestinians, we know that won't guarantee peace.  NOTHING short of giving them ALL of Israel will meet their demands.  Why?  AGAIN, hear me out David.  It's NOT the Palestinians who want this war.  It's Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia, and all of the radical Ilsamic countries/regimes around the world.  Can't you just admit it David?  Radical Islam has declared a fight to the end with the rest of the world, just as Nazism did.   We MUST defeat them!!  STOP allowing people to play games with this.  This is NOT a game!   This is a fight to the death of either radical Islam or western ideology.  I don't want to believe that you support radical Islam David.  But if you do, just be honest anout it and we can stop playing games.

"Radical Islam has declared a fight to the end with the rest of the world, just as Nazism did."
-I'm not a huge Pat Buchanan fan, yet he makes some great points about the myths&misconceptions about the real reasons for war to break out between Germany and England in 1939 in his book Churchill, Hitler and the Unnecessary War.......
in the same manner we must ask ourselves why there is a thing called  "Radical Islam".
DS, Like i said, Rage&Resentment permeates the politics of the middle east......and these double "R's" just didn't pop up on a whim.  
" It's NOT the Palestinians who want this war."
-Really?
Voting for Hamas shows me the population of Gaza sees war as the only way to convince Israel to negotiate in a meaningful way, and end it's siege.
That the population is radicalized is a statement of how they have been brutalized and marginalized by Israel.  Our acquiescence to Israel's demands with respect to the terms of our mutual relationship  leaves us exposed to the world as anything but a peaceful, freedom loving nation.
If we as a nation are willing to be honest, we have to admit that just as Israel has a right to exist, so do the Palestinian people have a right to exist with a modicum of dignity as a nation.

david,
Why do you assume that I am against Palestinians?  I am not.  I am against radical Islam which has hijacked the Palestinian cause.  Get rid of them, and you will see a BIG change in the Palestinian/Israeli relationship.  Until that time, don't expect much to change.  And I also don't buy your premise that all of the middle eastern problems are caused by the policies of the U.S. or west.  That is hogwash, and is just ANOTHER excuse that radical Islam uses to push/justify their EVIL.  End of story!

Many people here believe Israeli actions in gaza could lead to WW3.
Unfortunately Islam has already begun the war.We know have no choice
but to fight it.Gaza is as good a place as any to start fighting it

DS,
I suppose you just don't get it.....that when people are pushed to the brink, they tend to push back.  There are few "moderates" in the Palestinian world today.
There is a good reason why radicals like Hamas & Hezbollah attract so many followers in Gaza, and Lebanon.  I wish it weren't true and that there would be more support for moderates.  Yet they do, and to pretend that our (United States) policy with respect to that region has been stellar is to be delusional. 
There was a time i supported Israel's claims, policies, and actions.  But to be fair, the Palestinians have had valid claims that have NEVER been seriously addressed by either Israel or the United States.  I do not support Hamas & Hezbollah, but i understand why they garner so much support. 

<<your premise that all of the middle eastern problems are caused by the policies of the U.S. or west. That is hogwash, .....>>
-Really?
So Iranians, for no particular reason, hate America's policies so as to sponsor Hezbollah.......
-Who put the Shah on the peacock Throne?  -The CiA did.   So Iranian mobs took over our embassy when his rotten regime fell.   We sponsored Saddam in his war against Iran.
And we continue to let Israel do as they wish........
And now the time comes for a reckoning.  There is a common misconception among many of my fellow Americans that this issue can simply be solved with additional military action on Israel's part with U.S. acquiescence.  That would be a mistake.

david,
HOGWASH!!  Radical Islamists HATE all western cultures and ANYONE who believes anything other than Islam.....FACT!!  It wouldn't matter what we did or didn't do.   They would still hate us!  And America is the shining beacon of freedom throughout the world.  They can't stand freedom!  They have a 7th century mentality which will NEVER change David.  And you will NEVER convince me otherwise.  Like I have said, the best chance of temporary (and maybe long term) peace in that region is for the Palestinians to move to Syria, Lebanon, or Egypt so that they can live with the people whom they most agree.  That really isn't that complicated.  Why don't they do that if peace is really what they want?  If my neighborhood became infiltrated with thugs and gangs, it wouldn't take me very long to leave!!   Either love America, or leave it David.  And that goes for all of you liberals!!

WW3 will come no matter what we in America do.  (Actually, WW3 is already in session as we write and read these comments.)  Radical Islam will conquer and rule the world.  They will kill people like me and you David, just as they have so many times before to those who believe differently.  We must be taken totally out of existance before they can achieve that.  THAT IS THEIR ULTIMATE GOAL.  It is in the teachings of Islam.  They are teaching it all around us, right here in America and in every country abroad.  The entire world is under attack by Radical Islam.  If you are not with them, you are against them.  If you are against them, you must die!

Of course, I cannot argue that point directly with a Terriorist!  They would just kill me if they got the chance.  Please read up on what Radical Islam's purpose is, what they are doing about it and where are they today.  I'm not sure that would change some radical Americans but it might get some of you to thinking.

One more comment: What if Radical Islam took control of a nation such as the United States?  What would they do with all that power?  They would destroy the rest of the world or convert them to Radical Islam.  They are slowly doing that very thing by recruiting sentiment from people all over the world!

Bud&DS........
Like a sore or an itch that bothers a person, the more one scratches it, the worse it gets. In our zeal to fight "Radical Islam", we can:
1.)  Cause even more hatred of America in that region.....
And worse yet
2.)  We become just like them (Radical Islamists).
Yet DS writes:
<<HOGWASH!!  Radical Islamists HATE all western cultures and ANYONE who believes anything other than Islam.....FACT!!  It wouldn't matter what we did or didn't do.  >>
-DS, you'd have to admit that there are some Radical Christians that HATE all middle eastern cultures and ANYONE who believes anything other than Christianity.......

The "solution" my friends is not more hate and killing......our zeal to neutralize the threat posed HAS an adverse effect, aiding the recruitment of more and more to commit worse crimes.  Has Israel become safer in the past 40 years or more of conflict with their enemies?  Are we any closer to finding those responsible for 9-11 in spite of our "enhanced interrogation techniques"? 
Bud wonders what happens if Radical Islamists  takes control of our country.......Seriously?   Where do you live?  Here in Moore County NC, everyone has guns, do you really think that is even a remote possibility.
But i am more afraid of the country i have fought for to engage in torture, and aid in the killing of innocent civilians.

First off, I don't give a damn if Islam likes me or not!  I don't care whether any of those idoits live or not.  I know one thing, they teach false doctrin and it is against me and anything I believe in.  Yes, I disagree with their teaching but I am not out to kill all of them like they are us!

-DS, you'd have to admit that there are some Radical Christians that HATE all middle eastern cultures and ANYONE who believes anything other than Christianity.......

There is a big difference in simply disagreeing with other cultures, or want to kill them all...  Christians do not want to kill anyone.  That is the goal of Radical Islam.

david,


-DS, you'd have to admit that there are some Radical Christians that HATE all middle eastern cultures and ANYONE who believes anything other than Christianity.......

David, actually, I DO disagree with you.  Christians (real Christians mind you) don't HATE middle eastern cultures or other "true" religions who aren't bent on destroying everyone who disagrees with them as Islam does.  So David, keep it real bro.  I can understand why you might think that though since you aren't a christian, and don't understand the heart of God.  David, God HATES evil......so I can truly say that God hates "radical" Islam.  And we have argued your point many times before about how we're creating more hatred by our policies.  HOGWASH!!!  You KNOW they would hate us anyway because they are only interested in conquering the world for Allah!   GET REAL!!

I find it funny that I follow the teachings of christ more closely than so many supposed christians, and I'm not even a christian!  


DS, thank you for addressing one of my issues.  You think palestinians should up and move off of their land and into other countries.  I think it sounds completely unrealistic and there is no chance of that ever happening.  So we disagree on that one.  I am curious as to why that is the only one you chose to address.  I mean, I know why, but for giggles I'd like to hear you explain. Outside of occasionally listening to the grateful dead, I am opposite nearly every stereotypical hippie trait you can come up with.  But you just want this "hippie" to go away. Stop saying that the Israelis are OCCUPYING palestine.  Stop understanding the reasons that make terrorism thrive and spread.  Stop attacking the root of the problem. Stop thinking.  Idiocy.  You are a frightened crowd, and your vision is blurred by ignorance, selfishness, fear, and the absolute panic that those characteristics breed.


csc5502,


Hamas is terrorist organization.  Israel is a terrorist nation.  Period.  If you can't figure out why that is true, you are paying no attention.

DS ....in (62) you ask for solutions. There are none. You lament that the leadership of Gaza is "Radical"........why is it Hamas rules Gaza instead of a more logical moderate?
Go back and read (56) that pleasehelp wrote:
http://www.kinghussein.gov.jo/kabd_eng.html
King Abdullah bin Al-Hussein was a moderate leader of an Arab state. Many Americans point out the fact that Radical Islam is such a problem...... <<HOGWASH!!!  You KNOW they would hate us anyway because they are only interested in conquering the world for Allah!   GET REAL!!>>
I wonder, when the radical doctrine of world domination entered into the collective minds of so many Islamic people? 
I wonder if there is a cause and effect connection between American policies with respect to Israel in the middle east and the rise of "Radical Islam"?
I'm asking you to really understand why we are where we are with respect to violence in Palestine/Israel and in the greater middle east. Is is simply that Islam is a false doctrine that preaches hate?
-If you believe this, you are missing some key understanding to the issue at hand..... (Why radicals dominate the voice of many Muslims). There is no real solution in Gaza or anywhere in that region DS, yet America can mitigate the growing problem, and it isn't more military action that will solve it either.....

pleasehelp,
I used the word "hippie" because it they are commonly known by almost everyone for their "peace without strength" philosophies.  I am hearing the same thing from both you and David.  Neither of you can offer a solution to the Palestinian conflict, but you still like to bad mouth the U.S., Israel, and ALL of the other freedom loving nations in the world.  At least my proposal would bring peace to the region as the Palestinians and entire Arab world would be able to live in peace.  I "guarantee" you that Israel would be a peaceful, helpful, great neighbor if that happened!  But it will never happen as you say because peace isn't the goal for Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran, Syria, or any other radical Islamic nation/state.  I'm really getting tired of repeating this statement, but that IS the crux of the problem.  Solve it and you solve ALL of the problems over there!!  And since the radical islamists will NOT stop their hatred and killing, the ONLY other solution is to ELIMINATE them as quickly as possible!  That is my final answer!  I will not respopnd to anymore of your anti-American rants.  Like I said to both of you, if you don't like America and our view of the world, please go to a country that you agree with.  PLEASE!!

So the violence in the Israel continues … but has it really ever ended? Ever since Israel became an independent state in 1948, they have been a target by the Arab and Muslim nations that surround the country. The only good news coming out of this is that the Israeli Air Force bombed a building in the Jabalya refugee camp in Gaza killing a senior Hamas leader and cleric Sheikh Nizar Rayyan.
The sad fact is that if the enemies of Israel disposed of their weapons and declared peace in that region, there WOULD be peace in that region. On the contrary, if Israel disposed of their weapons and declared peace, there WOULD be 8 million dead Jews.

There will be no rest for Israel until all Radical Islamic and anyone thinking like them are dead!

Well, Bud has illuminated us all with his perceptive grasp of reality:
<<................they (Israel)have been a target by the Arab and Muslim nations that surround the country.>>
So, for no real reason (perhaps it's just because Palestinians are by nature anti-semetic)...........Israel became a target of Arab&Muslim aggression.
So, perhaps Bud can illuminate us as to why this is?

DS....
I apologize for not having a workable solution that suits you.  Perhaps if i were to advocate the U.S. to facilitate an Israeli air strike on Iran, i would be applauded for real, workable solutions......
<<Neither of you can offer a solution to the Palestinian conflict, but you still like to bad mouth the U.S., Israel, and ALL of the other freedom loving nations in the world. >>
-DS, it's not that i like to "bad mouth" the US.....
Actually i'd love nothing more than to hail a history of successful policies in the mid east on the part of our nation, however events just cannot bear this out my friend.  Sadly history shows us the proof of failed policies instead.....
and this doesn't please me at all.  It shouldn't please you either.

david,
I wish you could stop beating yourself (and YOUR country) up the way you do.  There has never been a perfect person (other than Jesus), let alone a perfect country...and there never will be!  I still believe that we can all say without debate that the U.S. has been the best example of freedom and liberty the world has EVER seen.  Our policies aren't perfect David, but I can honestly say that from our founding fathers until today, our leaders have, for the most part, been men of conviction with strong moral character.  They have obviously always had the best interests of our country in mind in their policies....and that's understandable.  So, again, I implore you to stop beating up on yourself and your country.  Pray for your leaders and support them in good times and bad.  They need the knowledge and wisdom of God in order to lead "the greatest nation on earth" each and every day.  And if you ever come up with a solution to the Palestinian/Israeli conflict, let me know.  I want to see peace for both sides as you do.  God wants the same.

DS.....
i do love our lively conversations. 
<< There has never been a perfect person (other than Jesus),let alone a perfect country...and there never will be! >>
No one is asking for perfection, yet in boot camp i learned to strive for perfection......and if one does indeed strive for perfection, a higher lever of satisfaction can be attained. - Not perfection, but something more than just ............OK.
There have been times in our history this once great nation has been "the greatest nation on earth", but since the 1960's, we've been slipping steadily.

<<...........Pray for your leaders and support them in good times and bad.>>
-Right after 9-11 i did support our leader, hoping he had the wisdom and knowledge to deal with terrorism directed against our nation.  9-11 was a cowardly act of a desperate, deluded minority of fanatics.  However, my support of George Bush's wisdom began to wane when he began his attack on Iraq........not because i though it was somehow wrong to invade Iraq......
-(i believed the WMD reasoning), but because it was obvious the plan to invade was flawed militarily.   Gen. Eric Shinseki's critic of Rumsfeld's plan
was exactly as i had seen it......to few troops to secure the country.  At that point i did indeed become somewhat the cynic with respect to the wisdom of our leaders.  They were way beyond the help of prayer.
A real solution to Gaza & the greater mid-east problem will take into account the past, paying particular attention to what does not work with respect to our policies.......it's like beating one's head against the wall.
-It serves no useful purpose.
I have had the opportunity to visit that region while in the Army.....the Israeli military is top notched.  Yet, military action has not served them well in solving this problem they have.......and to continue to support any action Israel has taken against Palestinians as every U.S. president has done since Truman would be like beating one's head against a wall.

david,
I respectfully disagree with your opinions.  We are going to have to agree to disagree at this point.  But one thing we can agree on is that we both desire peace in that region.  And since that is also God's desire, we need to be diligent to pray for the peace of Jerusalem.  I'll leave the strategies up to those who have much more military and political knowledge than either you or I do.  God is still in control David.  I will trust Him in this.  Take care my friend.

Author: RampantHypocrisy
Comment:
You are all warped...your sense of reality has been so corrupted that true evidence in this world is ignored. This has been the case for centuries in power-oriented organizations based upon religion. The goal of your "religious" organization is a consolidation of wealth, resource, and power and unfortunately, you, are the slaves of those at the top of the organization. You heap praise upon each other for supporting the "wisdom" of those who have told what to think. Without any intellectual pursuit of ideas, you are lost and are a sad part of humanity. I only wish that one day your closed minds could be opened, but I fear that to be impossible. May your DNA not be spread through more generations, for it breeds the hate, fear, violence and intolerance in this world. If a sentient "God" existed, the entity would be ashamed of your behavior and rhetoric. Please cease to disgrace the human race.

-WoW!  Lots of good posts don't get to see the light of day, UC........why?

Even if there is a cease fire the violence will continue. The truth is, bloodshed is the only way to stop the bleeding. Hamas is driven by blind religion, and law and diplomacy won't stop them.

Michael Payne writes:
<< Hamas is driven by blind religion, and law and diplomacy won't stop them.>>
-Yes, i can agree with this half of the violent formula.  But what is the other half of the formula  Michael?  To cast the Palestinians as the only party to blame in this is the mind set that has led to repeated failures in the  America's foreign policy with respect to that region. 
Don't get me wrong.  I oppose terrorism.  Yet i can see a cause and effect in our total support of ALL of Israel's policies.  The diplomacy that may help, is to lean hard on Israel to stop treating Gaza as a vast concentration camp.  Using white phosphorus shells in such an urban environment is, if not terrorism, a war crime.

slammer writes.....
<<Bush has been the biggest disaster to ever hit the GOP and it might never recover.>>
Oh, just remember 1976........many said the same and look what happened.

Author: RampantHypocrisy
Comment:
You are all warped...your sense of reality has been so corrupted that true evidence in this world is ignored. This has been the case for centuries in power-oriented organizations based upon religion. The goal of your "religious" organization is a consolidation of wealth, resource, and power and unfortunately, you, are the slaves of those at the top of the organization. You heap praise upon each other for supporting the "wisdom" of those who have told what to think. Without any intellectual pursuit of ideas, you are lost and are a sad part of humanity. I only wish that one day your closed minds could be opened, but I fear that to be impossible. May your DNA not be spread through more generations, for it breeds the hate, fear, violence and intolerance in this world. If a sentient "God" existed, the entity would be ashamed of your behavior and rhetoric. Please cease to disgrace the human race.


THANK YOU!  


Both Democrats and Republicans have shown time and time again that they will not act in the best interests of us, the common people.  The question is: why do we continue to support them?

<< The question is: why do we continue to support them?>>
Why is it that there is but 2 parties to represent us?  One claims to be conservative the other claims to be progressive.  Most of us agree both parties aren't fulfilling their promises.
I least trust the party that represents the religious lobby in this country.  Their god is leading us to hell.

http://www.fpp.co.uk/online/09/01/atrocities.html

http://www.madison.com/tct/opinion/column/433414

pleasehelp,
Why do you continue your misleading, anti-peace propaganda?  Everyone with half a brain knows that this conflict is between Hamas and Israel, and NOT peace loving Palestinians.  As long as you feel it is ok to keep spreading hate, I feel it is just as important to keep pointing out the truth here.  If not for Hamas, Hezbollah, Syria, and Iran, Israeli's and Palestinians WOULD live in peace...side by side!   But the terrorists won't allow it, and it is Israel's right to defend herself against them!  I pray that all of those terrorist states/nations will ultimately be destroyed so that the Palestinians and Israeli's will "once again" live together in peace.

you are hilarious.


end

<<If not for Hamas, Hezbollah, Syria, and Iran, Israeli's and Palestinians WOULD live in peace...side by side!>> -DS (111)
-This could be the hilarious part of your post. Don't you even have a modicum of intellectual curiosity to wonder why Iran & Syria hates Israeli(....and U.S.) policy.  But "purpose-driven" Rev. Rick Warren doesn't agree with you fully either.....(not that i ever agree with Rev. Warren)
http://www.christiannewswire.com/news/647761506...

david,

First, I don't just accept everything that ANYONE says about ANYTHING....so I'm not sure why you think that I would approve of what Rick Warren "may" have said about Syria, Iran, or any other foreign policy issue.  Rick is a pastor, NOT a foreign policy expert!

Second, why do you use Rick Warren as a source when you don't believe in God?  That seems to me to be less than honest.

Finally, thanks for the link.  I think thebest part of it was the last couple paragraphs below.  I DO agree with them!   ;-}

"The pastor has no business involving himself in any role that appears to be representative of the United States and his promise to Syria to present a brighter view of that nation to America and Saddleback members demonstrates his willingness to serve as a mindless shill for a nation that embraces terror as a legitimate way of solving problems.
Rick Warren owes an apology to Israel, to the American people and to the victims of Syrian sponsored terror whose blood continues to soak the earth's soil."

DS,
Though i am an atheist......i have great respect for the words contained in the bible.  What i find dishonest is how many church leaders use the bible to influence people who, with good intent, believe.  In the same way many conservatives critique many Islamic leaders, i critique many Christian leaders for using the words in the bible....
There is a lot of good stuff to read in the bible, and i invite all to take in its wisdom............
"All the Believers were together and had everything in common. Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need."
-Acts 2:44-45
It seems as if the 1st church in Jerusalem was a bit Socialistic........what happened?

Don't forget, America is fighting "Terriorism."  Most terriorist hail
from those countries or live in those countries that you just compared
Christianity in America to.  That is 100% wrong!  Many so called
"Islamic leaders" attend and learn from the very teachings those
Terriorist learn from.  Most Christian leaders in this country do not
teach that we should behead or just outright kill people for the good
of our religion.  That is only one simple fact when comparing
Christian leaders in this country to Christian leaders in, lets say
"Radical Islam!"  Big difference...

When it shows the Terriorist worshiping in their masqs, or where ever
they worship, it all looks the same to me.  I can't tell the
difference between the actual Terriorist and their leaders.  Hummm, I
bet there arn't any.

Whether you are a believer or not, refuge or citizianship in this
country is far better than that of any other country on the globe.

<<Most Christian leaders in this country do not
teach that we should behead or just outright kill people for the good
of our religion.....>>-Bud Mullins
Our Christian history is replete with "god-sanctioned" crimes against humanity.  For the sake of brevity, i won't enumerate them.  When you make generalities such as:
<<When it shows the Terriorist worshiping in their masqs, or where ever
they worship, it all looks the same to me.  I can't tell the
difference between the actual Terriorist and their leaders.  Hummm, I
bet there arn't any.>>
-your words, first show dismissive disrespect to an entire group of people, so as to make it somehow OK to wage war on the entirety of  that society.....for what ever real purpose our so-called Christian leaders will have our society do.
Yes, there are criminals among Islamic society, just as we have had criminals in our society leading us.  I tend to NOT want to give the criminal element in Islamic society any more reason to enlist more into their cause.

Davidwwalters wrote: "-your words, first show dismissive disrespect to an entire group of people, so as to make it somehow OK to wage war on the entirety of  that society....."

Yes, that's exactly what I said!  Thanks...

david115,
When you read the bible, make sure you interpret it in context rather than just using a single verse to try to prove your point.  First, according to the verse you quoted, the believers weres selling what they had and sharing it amongst themselves, NOT with everyone else.  A lot of churches still practice that today.  And you also misunderstand Christ's teachings when it comes to providing to those in need.  David, you know better than that.  Christ isn't telling the government to take what they have and share it with everyone.  His teachings are directed to the individual person!  Whenever we (each person) sees anyone in need, we should help them in whatever way we can.  It is NOT the job of governments to do that!  Jesus NEVER taught to depend on the government for anything.  Quite the contrary, He taught that if a person didn't work, he didn't deserve to eat.  He taught everyone to be responsible, and to not expect others to provide everything for you.  So stop the socialism stuff.  Jesus was NOT a socialist!!

<<So stop the socialism stuff.  Jesus was NOT a socialist!!>>
-DS(119)
I love Luke's bit of "Historical Perspective" about the 1st Church in Jerusalem found in Acts of the Apostles.  The church was led by Jesus' brother, James.  Context?  This is Lukes, description, not my interpretation.  Read all of chapter 2, or for that matter the entire book of Acts and tell me what else it can mean.  I stand by Luke's words(......and as a Christian, it must be God's word to you, huh?)
<<...........selling what they had and sharing it amongst themselves, NOT with everyone else. >>
-What difference is it weather they shared it with their group or the larger population of Jerusalem?  It's still a socialistic concept.  I read the bible with NO preconceived notions as to what a book, chapter or verse is supposed to convey.   I try to place the entire work in its historical perspective......in the case of Acts, a Jewish Christian city in a Roman province.
Bud(118)
-<<Yes, that's exactly what I said!  Thanks...>>
You're welcome!

david,
I don't believe that I ever said that sharing was wrong.  You sure like to twist what people say to support your argument don't you?  There is a BIG difference between people "sharing" what they have with others and the government "taking" what people have and giving it to others.  Jesus NEVER taught that and you know it!!  I think the churches could do a much better job of helping those in need than the government does.  They would at least be doing it in love, expecting nothing in return!

<< You sure like to twist what people say to support your argument don't you? >>
-No DS, only making my point that Acts 2:44-45 wasn't used out of context.
<<There is a BIG difference between people "sharing" what they have with others and the government "taking" what people have and giving it to others>>
In 1st century Jerusalem, the Proto-Christians lived communally in Jerusalem.  Out of their collective funds they had a Temple Tax to pay.  Their local government took this from them.....it was a tax. 
There is no doubt about the socialist nature of this first church.  Sharing was a part of their community, and i didn't say you thought Sharing was wrong.  What i was trying to convey was that you fail to recognize the relation to sharing and this communal(socialist) nature of this 1st church.
My apologies for the misunderstanding.

<< You sure like to twist what people say to support your argument don't you? >>
-No DS, only making my point that Acts 2:44-45 wasn't used out of context.
<<There is a BIG difference between people "sharing" what they have with others and the government "taking" what people have and giving it to others>>
In 1st century Jerusalem, the Proto-Christians lived communally in Jerusalem.    There is no doubt about the socialist nature of this first church.  Sharing was a part of their community, and i didn't say you thought Sharing was wrong.  What i was trying to convey was that you fail to recognize the relation to sharing and this communal(socialist) nature of this 1st church.  Also mentioned in Acts was happened if you failed to share.
(ref. Ananias&his wife.....Acts 5:1)
Christianity was one of a number of sects which made up 1st century Judaism.  Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zadokites, and Jesus' followers all made up what were known as the Jews.  They all aspired to be the one true form of Judaism, and the infighting among these groups led to the Jewish Revolt of 69CE.  So,  this communal living could very well have turned out to be the government of the land (had history turned out differently).............
My apologies for the misunderstanding.

david,

Again, you're being dishonest.  You know very well that Ananias and Saphira were killed because they lied about their money, NOT because they wouldn't share.  They told the apostles that they had given away ALL of their wealth when they had kept some back.  Scripture even states that directly!!  And we could argue the historical reasons why the early church lived in a communal nature as well.  As you also know, they were under EXTREME persecution, and had to live this way in order to survive.  You make the same mistake as a lot of people who want to build their entire religion on a few (out of context) scriptures!  That is very dangerous as you also know.  Beware of false teachers David!  Look at the whole context of scripture and interpret it against itself.  God's principles NEVER contradict each other.

David & DS, the depth of your Biblical knowledge awe's me!  All though I have not received any specialty training in theology, I can tell at a glance that both of you seem to have some sort of professional theologian training.  I don't know if it is self-taught or from some college.  Either way, my compliments to both of you.

Now, don't be soooooo hard on each other!  Agree to disagree some of the time.

Bud,

I think David and I agree that we should help those in need.  But it isn't the government's job to dictate and control it.  That's a personal decision that every person must make according to God.  I will NEVER agree with David (or any socialist) on that.

Bud(126)...
-The first time i really read the bible was when i was locked up for 56 days awaiting trial for kicking a cop's front teeth out(-i was angry at him......)
That's where i found those gems from Acts Chapter 2&4.  So i'll throw that out there so DS can simply assume i'm insane......
My only other training was a man of God who taught my catechism class when i was a teen(.......i learned of the various sects that comprised 1st century Judaism), taught by Pastor John D. Mauny of St. James Lutheran Church in Fayetteville N.C.   My former father in law who was Special Forces Chaplin(he actually was a "tab" holder, having finished SF phase training) was also instrumental in my education.......none of it is formal.
I read books by authors such as J.D Crossan, and Bart Ehrman. 
I formally embraced my atheist status while living at the Durham Rescue Mission(.....a Baptist "Faith Based Initiative" in Durham N.C.), at which time i was kicked out.......
DS(124)........
<<Again, you're being dishonest.  You know very well that Ananias and Saphira were killed because they lied about their money, NOT because they wouldn't share.>>
-Dishonest?  Uh, keeping some back is the same as NOT sharing?                ;).........(Dave is chuckling)
<<As you also know, they were under EXTREME persecution, and had to live this way in order to survive.>>
-Yeah, i know.......remember James was killed by a mob.
The Essenes also lived communally.......modern day communes live communally.  They choose to live in that manner.  I can envision a commune where members live together for safety reasons, yet individuals can keep their possessions.......so for some reason, James' Church opted for this arrangement(...........selling what they had and sharing it amongst themselves)........maybe due to something Jesus imparted to James, that didn't get written down. Who knows?  Can we even be sure what was written down wasn't altered in some way by scribes who copied these texts?  Bart. Ehrman goes into textural criticism in his book "Misquoting Jesus".......read it sometimes, very informative.

No, keeping some back is NOT the same as not sharing.   Apparently, they shared most of what they had, but were killed because they lied.  You don't see the difference?  I'll not read all of your socialist books David.  I'll stick to scripture, thanks!

DS......
<< who want to build their entire religion on a few (out of context) scriptures!>>
So how am i taking Acts Ch. 2&4 out of context?

"And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover." -Mark, Chapter 16, verses 17 and 18.
- this would be a sect taking something out of context.  Try drinking draino....i don't care how much you believe, you are going to have a bad time at the ER.

david,
We agree on that!   ;-}

DS.......
<<Apparently, they shared most of what they had, but were killed because they lied.>>
Yeah, they lied about NOT sharing!  Wow!  Keep those blinders on if you will.
-But you didn't address the the problem of your argument  that i pointed out......
<<As you also know, they were under EXTREME persecution, and had to live this way in order to survive.>>
- I can envision a commune where members live together for safety reasons, yet individuals can keep their possessions.  Luke had a reason for mentioning on 2 different occasions.  It must have been important for him to mention 2 times, and what other context can it possible be?  It is presented to us in his book as a simple fact....."All the Believers were together and had everything in common. Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need."
-Acts 2:44-45

-had it been for safty reasons (selling all their possessions), wouldn't he (Luke)have mentioned it?

not necessarily...I'm sure he knew we could figure that out.   ;-}

DS...
God must have a really nice condo waitin' on you up there......
since you are so faithful(........there is a particularly hot place in hell waitin' on me i'm sure).  So God throws those curve balls to us to test our faith(.....or lack thereof)?

what curveballs?  I am looking forward to heaven!  I assume you don't believe in hell since you're an atheist.  But I wouldn't even joke about it if I were you.  It will be MUCH worse than anything you can imagine David!

DS(135)...
What Curve balls?  For me, i guess one of the pitches that made me wonder was(when i was a child) -was Noah's ark story.......how in the hell did Noah get all those animals on board without eating and fighting with one another.
(Then i find out later in life that the were more than 2 of some types of animals!)  I remember asking once  "......when did the time of miracles end?"
As i matured, i began to wonder why God would make me believe in something so unbelievable.
In college, i majored in geology, changing to engineering.  I believed at that time that the evolving planet we reside on in an evolving universe was simply God's tool. The universe seemed fine.   At some point as an undergrad, my girlfriend became pregnant......i joined the army to provide for my new family.  Deploying to a combat deployment, i had the opportunity to serve my nation by calling in an air strike.   It went horribly wrong, hitting an insane asylum, killing many civilians.  Soon, the concept of a God became an insanity.  If he is real, i'll give him a good piece of my mind when i see him!

david,
I think we've discussed those things before, but I'd be glad to revisit them again.  

1) I don't really care how many of each animal was taken aboard the Ark.  It would make sense for Him to make sure "at least" one male and one female of each was taken for obvious reasons.   What matters is that He put what was necessary on the Ark.  And they were saved along with Noah's family.  That  is all that really matters isn't it?

2) The time of miracles has never ended.  God is still in the miracle business David.  I actually believe that the US Airways landing on the Hudson was a miracle.  A better question is "why does God do miracles for some and not for others?"  I would like to ask Him that when I meet Him, but by then it won't really matter because I'll be so excited to just be with Him!  The best answer to that question is that He is God, and He chooses to do what He wants to do.  We have to trust Him and know that He is a good God, and loves us very much!  I have seen a lot of good come from times when He chose not to keep something bad from happening. 

3) As we both know, war is a terrible thing....though necessary at times.  Things obviously go wrong during wars as did with you.  That is not your fault David, nor is it something God did.  God allows man to make decisions, and we sometimes make some pretty bad ones.  Then we have to suffer the consequences.  But don't blame yourself, and don't blame God.  Why do bad things happen to good people?  I don't know, but He does, and I can guarantee that it hurts Him as well.  We aren't puppets David, and we live in a fallen world.  Satan comes to kill and destroy, but God will get the glory in the end.  That is faith David.  You need just a little of it, and He will do the rest.  Rest assured that all of my brothers and sisters on here are still praying for you David.  I suspect BlueStarMom has you on her list.  Someday you will be free David, and we will rejoice with you!

<<It would make sense for Him to make sure "at least" one male and one female of each was taken for obvious reasons. >>
-This would really screw up the gene pool of every species! 

<<I actually believe that the US Airways landing on the Hudson was a miracle.>>
-if both pilots were struck dead and the craft floated out of the sky and landed on the Hudson....that would be a miracle.

The real curve ball is war.  If a God existed, this entity is bizarre beyond belief to allow humans to do such to one another.  Again, if he is real and he judges me, i will laugh in his face!

-This would really screw up the gene pool of every species! 
<<How so?  Actually, it doesn't matter to me.  He knew what He was doing!>>

-if both pilots were struck dead and the craft floated out of the sky and landed on the Hudson....that would be a miracle.
<<Our idea of what constitutes a miracle is obviously different.  I actually think it's a miracle that He doesn't strike some people dead for what they say and do.>>


The real curve ball is war.  If a God existed, this entity is bizarre beyond belief to allow humans to do such to one another.  Again, if he is real and he judges me, i will laugh in his face!
<<Would you rather God take away your free will and make you do what He wants you to do?  That wouldn't be love would it David?  Yes, man's heart is deceitfully wicked.  Who can know it?  The obvious answer is God.  He alone knows the evil in mans heart.  Oh, and by the way, you won't laugh in His face.  You will be totally disgraced and humiliated by your actions in this life.  You will then KNOW that He did actually exist, and that you will spend eternity in hell.  That won't make you laugh David!>>

david,

I thought we needed a little break....


Stethoscope...click below:

http://www.youtube.com/v/bYI_aOyCn9Y&hl=en&fs=1

<<You will be totally disgraced and humiliated by your actions in this life>>
-Actually, in spite of all, i'm pretty darn proud of my conduct in this creation.  But i would ask God.......
"Why did you write it in hebrew&greek, so it could be mistranslated into english when you could have just thundered out in you God voice in every language just what you want us to do and not to do (like war.....)
-i'm sure that would achieve near total compliance with our free will intact!
Have a good Sunday morning in praise&worship.......i'm swimming laps at the pool!

You do know that npne of us are good enough though....
I will, thanks.  Have fun at the pool.

Oh, BTW....thanx for the link, but i have to wait t'll after the pool and can go by the library where i can get broadband....

http://www.metimes.com/Opinion/2009/01/23/jewis...

for all of you white phosphorous lovers:


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/mid...

"A senior army official also admitted that shells containing phosphorus had been used in Gaza but said that they were used to provide a smokescreen"
-there are slightly more inert methods of producing tactical smoke.....

there is always more than one "truth" :

http://www.sott.net/image/image/9591/israel-pal...

Well Dora.....Seems like the Palestinians have sold an awfully lot of land to the Israelis, huh?  They(the Palestinians) must be rollin' in dough....

Dora, david..
Enough already with the maps, or the argument that Israel has taken away all of their land.  First, it is almost impossible to separate Palestinians and Israelis in this way.  They have lived "together" for many years within Israel's boundaries.  Second, Palestine has never been a recognized state.  And third, boundaries of countries around the world have changed over time because of one tribe taking it from another.  Your argument is so lame.  I suspect your next argument will be that we should all move out of the U.S. and give all of the land back to the natives and mexicans.  Get off it....

DS(149)........
<< They have lived "together" for many years within Israel's boundaries...
...............Your argument is so lame
.....I suspect your next argument will be that we should all move out of the U.S. and give all of the land back to the natives and (M)exicans.>>

-Do Palestinians (both Muslim&Christian)have a voice in the Israeli Knesset?
Native Americans have a right to vote and can be elected to state&federal office, in fact they enjoy all the rights of citizenship.  Do Palestinians enjoy the same rights as Israeli citizens?

I don't know, but that's Israel's business.  It's their country.

DS.....i'm confused.
<<but that's Israel's business.  It's their country.>>
-on  one hand America is supposed to be encouraging democratic principles.  It seems like i heard that "freedom" was a reason we are occupying Iraq.
(We are occupying it until they are free........)

Israel is democratic.  Palestinians would be much better off embracing Israel and their values than they are with Hamas.  Hopefully they will understand that someday.  Actually, I think a lot of them already do, but they are now hostage to the militants.  We're staying in Iraq (because they asked us not to leave) until they can support themselves.

DS(153).....
i am only her to encourage the truth.  This statement may appear to some to be factual, truthful......

<<Israel is democratic.  Palestinians would be much better off embracing Israel and their values than they are with Hamas.>>

The Republic of South Africa appeared to be democratic prior to 1994, but until Nelson Mandela and the African national Congress was elected by ALL the inhabitants of that nation, it was simply an apartheid
government.  Do you really believe a single state solution is what the Jewish people want for Israel?

I don't know what "the people" want, but I guarantee you they would prefer that than what is happening today!  I visited Israel in 1984 and it was NOTHING like it is today.  We felt very safe there, and visited all of the territories without an incident.  The UN had a peace-keeping force there at that time.  I'm not sure why it ever left.  Maybe that's what needs to happen again.  Then they will be able to see who actually starts trouble first....that is if they really want to be truthfull about it.  I have pretty much lost faith in the UN.  It has become so corrupt, and if not for funding from the U.S., it would probably not exist.  That might not be a bad thing!  As far as South Africa gos, it isn't such a great place to live right now!  My understanding is that most people have to live inside a fenced in compound in order to be safe.  Sounds like reverse apartheid has taken over.  Maybe Mandella didn't finish the job?

DS(155)....
<<The UN had a peace-keeping force there at that time.  I'm not sure why it ever left.>>

On August 3 1981, the Protocol to the Treaty of Peace between the states of Egypt, Israel and the United States  was signed, establishing the Multinational Force and Observers.
The Multinational Force and Observers was not exactly a U.N. operation when i served with the 1stBn ABN 508th Inf  in the Sinai in January 1985.    (The place sucked, and i hated the Egyptian&Israeli officiers i had to deal with.)  Back surgery brought me back to Ft. Bragg early and that was welcomed by me.  Eventually other nations took over the responsibility for this duty, including i believe Fiji....And Israel has pulled back to it's pre-1967 borders with Egypt.  That's why the MFO's left.

<<My understanding is that most people have to live inside a fenced in compound in order to be safe.  Sounds like reverse apartheid has taken over.  Maybe Mandela didn't finish the job?>>
Years of apartheid has left a mark of inequality between the majority black population and their former white overlords.  The same is happening in Israel, where the Palestinian population outnumbers the Jewish population.  
Fences keep Palestinians from tending their farms and orchards and from visiting relatives in the next village........no wonder Palestinians are so unhappy.
My point in (154) was that a "single state solution" is NOT in the interests of Israel, since the Jewish population would be outnumbered by the Palestinian population.  A" 2 state solution" is workable only if Israel moves back to its pre-1967 borders.  That means lots of land and Jewish settlements will have to be abandoned.

Israel has shown that they are willing to move back their borders, but it hasn't had ANY impact on resolving the conflict.  And the reason is VERY clear as we have discussed before.  Iran and Syria do NOT want an end to the conflict!!  They have made it clear that their goal is the "total" destruction of Jews, and they will NOT stop until they reach their goal.  That's why the Palestinians need to wake up and "do the right thing" by rejecting Hamas, Hezbollah, and any other terrorist group/nation IF they really want peace.  I really don't understand how ANYONE can argue with that truth.  David, I believe that you are a reasonable person.  Please tell me that you can see that.  And, if that is true, what has to happen in order to get "real peace" in that region?  Be honest now.....

DS(157).....
-There was a time i supported Israel's policies. They had every right to preemptively strike at their neighbors in 1967.  And though they gave up a lot of desert (The Sinai) to the Egyptians, they cling to the rest of their annexed lands, filling it with Israeli settlements by forcefully moving the inhabitants(Palestinians) from their homes. 
Last Sunday, Bob Simon(isn't he Jewish?) reported on 60 minutes about the settlement of Palestinian lands in Israeli occupied territory.  One Palestinian home was repeatedly occupied by Israeli troops........could you imagine troops occupying your house any time of the day or night, restricting your movement and freedom of movement?  As an American i cannot support such activities, regardless of the motive or excuse.  It has become clear to me that the '67 war is an excuse for Israeli expansionism at the expense of the Palestinians.  If my home were to be occupied by a squad of Israeli troops repeatedly, i might just join Hamas too.  There comes a time when being reasonable doesn't work.

There comes a time when being reasonable doesn't work.

I agree, and that's why I CANNOT and WILL NOT rebuke Israel when they are constatntly terrorist targets.  When I see the rest of the world actually doing something about Hamas and Hezbollah, then I might be more apt to look at Israel differently.  But NOY until they are dealt with appropriately!  I have nothing more to say about it.

How many Palestinian and Israeli children have been killed in the unending cycle of violence?  Both sides cynically use the deaths of their innocents to up the ante.  Again, as an American and a human being i reject BOTH sides in this murder.  But our nation supports the murder of one side in particular and it is high time we withdraw our support of Israel.  Only then will moderate Israeli politicians negotiate with Palestinians in a meaningful way.  Only at that time will moderate Palestinian politicians be able to come to the forefront of Palestinian politics and sit with their peers and work out a 2 state solution that might work.   But as long as the Israeli war hawks see America's unending support for them, there is little initiative to really negotiate.

david,
I can't believe how naive you are!  Our support for Israel is probably the only thing that is keeping Iran and other terrorist states from annihilating Israel!!  Don't be so foolish David.  Again, "if" Palestinians REALLY want peace, all they have to do is to reject Hamas, Hezbollah, and any other terrorist state and turn to the REAL and ONLY peacemaker in that region.....Israel.  There is no sense for us to go any further here.

DS.....
-I remember the '67 war......ALL of Israel's neighbors we calling for Israel's annihilation.  The Israeli "War Machine" consisted mainly of WW2 surplus tanks and some French made aircraft.  (The Israeli Navy&Air Force almost sunk an American intelligence vessel, the U.S.S Liberty)
<<I can't believe how naive you are!  Our support for Israel is probably the only thing that is keeping Iran and other terrorist states from annihilating Israel!!>>
-Yet in 1967 Israel defeated the Egyptian, Syrian, and Jordanian military simultaneously.   Israel, far from being annihilated at that time is still on the map, albeit......a bit larger in area.  So why are you accusing me of "naivety"....Naivety would be succumbing to panic and fear, which is the game Israeli politicians are so adept at.  Israel can protect itself. And with all the talk of Iranian nukes, Israel already possess it's own nukes.

david,
Oh boy...let's just let them nuke each other!  That is a fine solution huh?  Things have changed DRAMATICALLY since 1967.  Yes, Israel is very capable of defending themselves as long as the UN and everyone else stays out of their way!  That's EXACTLY what they are doing David!  So let's leave them alone.

The solution is easy to say:

1.  Let the Palistians get Hamas out of their territory themselves.

2.  Then and only then can they make peace with Israel which would consist of being a good neighbor and not preaching "Kill all the Isralies" all the time...

The solution is impossible to achieve!

Bud,
Thanks for your support, but I would disagree with one thing.  With God, ALL things are possible!  Very difficult, yes.  Impossible, no.  Let everyone who believes pray for peace in Jerusalem.

DS(163)....
<< Yes, Israel is very capable of defending themselves as long as the UN and everyone else stays out of their way!>>
-Sadly, no Blue Hats were evident in any meaningful way in Gaza.....Israel has a nasty habit of killing U.N. Peace Keepers. 
http://canadianobserver.wordpress.com/2006/07/2...
-OOPS!  Another one bits the dust.

So, how many civilians died for Israeli revenge to be sated?
http://blog.wired.com/defense/2009/01/mystery-weapon.html

"There are a large number of reports from Gaza that suggest this type of weapon has been used, and, unfortunately, caused civilian deaths. There are reports and pictures of victims peppered with small particles, and descriptions which are consistent with very localized blast."
-Nice guys, huh?  Of course suicide bombers are bad too, so that makes it ok.....RIGHT?

-Yes, i deplore Hamas....yet didn't they WIN their election?  The people of Gaza have spoken, and that does add legitimacy to Hamas as a political organization.  Without U.S. AID($$$$$$$), Israel wouldn't be able to prosecute these expensive acts of revenge, and perhaps be forced to negotiate.

Israel has won their defensive wars.....1967, The Yom Kipper War, but their forays into Palestinian territory have been disasters

David, I am sorry.  You seem to miss the whole point.  You keep wanting to point out how many people Israel has killed, explain all the rockets that continue to fall.  Every day, every week, pretty much all the time.  If everyone would leave Isreal to hell alone, they wouldn't kill anybody!  THEY WOULD NOT HAVE TO.  They are a peace loving nation.  They would be good neighbors with anyone who wants to be a good neighbor.  What part of that do you not comprehend?

Bud....
<<......explain all the rockets that continue to fall.>>
back in (158) i stated:
"It has become clear to me that the '67 war is an excuse for Israeli expansionism at the expense of the Palestinians.  If my home were to be occupied by a squad of Israeli troops repeatedly, i might just join Hamas too.  There comes a time when being reasonable doesn't work."

WE Americans fought against injustice back in 1776.......the Brits were appalled that we colonialist were so inconsiderate as to rebel against what they believed to be a fair, just administration of these colonies.
No, I haven't missed the whole point.  The rockets are a paltry show of anger against the injustice if the Israeli occupation.

I served as a Military Advisor to the Israeli Army during the 1973 Yom Kippur War. I have been all over the world and pretty much seen it all and done quite a bit of it myself, but I have to state here that the Arabs (Palestinians) have a capacity for hatred that I have never experienced before or sinse.

It has been my experience that whenever they call for a cease fire or peace negociations it is merely a ruse to regroup and rearm themselves for the next round of attacks and fighting. The Israeli's are caught between a rock and a hard place. They really do want peace and remember that when Israel became a nation they begged the Arabs living in Israel to stay and become a part of the nation.  It was King Fazil who demanded that the Arabs leave Israeli territory and issued a fatwa to kill all jews whenever possible. Which they have done with a vengence.

There will never be peace in the middle east.

<<I served as a Military Advisor to the Israeli Army during the 1973 Yom Kippur War. I have been all over the world and pretty much seen it all and done quite a bit of it myself,
....but I have to state here that the Arabs (Palestinians) have a capacity for hatred that I have never experienced before or (since).>> -WilliamS.English
-Since i was in the same area (Sinai) 10 yrs. later i was aware of just the same thing from the Egyptian side....but what i also noticed (capacity for hatred), was matched by an equal amount of contempt and arrogance on the Israeli side.

<<it is merely a ruse to regroup and rearm themselves for the next round of attacks and fighting.>>
-What else would expect a fighting man to do when he is out gunned?