The Good, the Bad, and the Stimulus

January 28th, 2009 Jr Accountant

Obama’s planned “economic stimulus” passed in the House today by a 244-188 vote. There is, as with all political and economic news these days, a good and a bad to this announcement.

Above all else, if you have not reviewed the actual appropriations of Obama’s plan, I absolutely recommend doing so. After all, this set of economic shock treatments will likely cost each American taxpayer around $6700 in the long run - this number is, of course, in 2009 money, which will shortly be devalued if Ben Bernanke and the Federal Reserve have their say, running the presses non-stop to cover endless government and private bailouts.

Full disclosure of the stimulus in actual dollar figures suggested by the committee may be found here and here. Warning: the contents of this bill are not pretty. Reading of this bill may cause nausea, vomiting, shortness of breath, and vertigo. The pork is overwhelming and feels an awful lot like a giant government bailout. We have been down this road before (Citigroup, anyone?) and the scenery is certainly not entirely unfamiliar.

It is disgusting that this bill passed at all. Beyond that, it is sickening that our new President and Congress chose this as the hallmark of the new administration. Way to kick things off with this bloated joke of a bill, passing a government makeover at the taxpayers’ expense off as a stimulus to rebuild the broken economy which has damaged so many of those selfsame taxpayers.

The good? Not a single Republican in the House voted yea. It shows a strength and unity that the party has been desperate to formulate in recent years; could it be that Conservatives have once and for all learned that we are greater than the sum of our parts?

The bad? The Democrats still got their way.

It is a frightening reflection of the divide we now have to fight against; even when every single one of our conservative representatives in D.C. stand against a self-indulgent joke of a bill such as Obama’s stimulus, we are still defeated by the Spendmores on the other side of the aisle. That is a more frightening realization than the bill itself.

There is a healthy way to stimulate our floundering economy. This, my friends, is not it.


Rating: 2.9/5 (61 votes cast)

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  • dontpaytaxes
    To: Congress, the House and the President

    Re: Taxes

    Sign this petition at:

    http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/irefusetopay/


    Over the past year, you’ve ignored the will of the people in many respects. You’ve pushed a monstrosity of a health care bill on us, which we’ve begged and pleaded you stop pushing. You’ve ignored the welfare and security of the people’s ability to find work and instead tossed them enough crumbs to get by through the intermittent passage of a UI bill that barely feeds a family of two, depending on where you live. You’ve pushed every possible anti-small business legislation in an order to crush the middle class and rich to help even out the dire needs of the poor. This is not America. This is class warfare, this is redistribution of wealth, this is tyranny and this is soon to be anarchy. In order to prevent anarchy, in order to prevent the violence and uprisings which we all feel are on the brink of happening, WE THE PEOPLE would like to present you with an alternative. The outcome of this alternative would end up keeping the peace, something we all want, something that is necessary to a civil society. This alternative would also help CONTROL the fanatical and power hungry desires of an out of control government. What is the alternative? Paying taxes. Or not paying taxes!

    The government needs OUR tax revenue for the overall general welfare of the country, which includes the upkeep of America’s infrastructure as well as the funding of our military, something we can all agree brings every man, woman and child protection. The problem that we all understand is that once this health care bill/education passes, among other anti-business bills such as cap and trade, the unionization of all businesses and other atrocious anti-business bills, NO AMOUNT of tax revenue will be enough to feed this out of control beast riddled with social program after social program. Just as Medicare costs were thought to be in the millions when the program first surfaced in the 60’s, in only a few short years we learned that the costs were potentially back bone breaking and today we have somewhere between 50 to 100 trillion in unfunded Medicare and social security liabilities. If it weren’t for the full faith and backing of the Chinese, Japanese and other countries who buy our treasuries and if weren’t for the productivity of the US worker whose pay check the government receives FICA taxes from, we’d had found ourselves in third world economic status in no time. But now that the government is taking away our economic freedoms, our ability to push this country forward without being swamped by social programs that tax us to death, now that the country is on the verge of losing its triple A bond rating, the possibility that those countries stop funding our liabilities is great. The fact that the US economy will be burdened by these bills and thus slow even more is no secret. And these problems equate to the death of the United States. It also means that no amount of tax revenue will keep our head above water and paying even a dollar in taxes will be a dollar wasted.

    So we come to you with this idea. Should you pass health care, should you continue to destroy the economic freedoms this country has enjoyed for two hundred plus years, we will not pay our taxes. If you think that you can control millions and millions of Americans through the IRS, then you’re sadly mistaken. Your IRS agents will be swamped with a convoluted mess of never ending paperwork, case loads and aggravation which means the revenue to the US government, which is drastically dropping due to the recession we’re in, will continue to drop and drop and drop. And let me assure you that soon enough, the US government won’t even have enough tax revenue to put gas in Air Force One.

    So we now present you with two options. The first, continue pushing through your despotic nonsense and chance losing the tax revenue of millions and millions of tax paying citizens. The second, come back to the center and start governing how WE THE PEOPLE want you to govern. I can assure you that should you choose the latter, the country will continue as it has for the past couple of hundred years but should you choose the former, you’re essentially risking civil unrest throughout the country, your political careers and potentially the life of this country. So I leave you with this… The choice is yours…. Choose wisely.

    Truly and Sincerely,

    The People of the United States

    If you would like to sign but don’t want to sign your own name, then sign “Susan B. Anthony” or “John Adams”. If an email is asked for, use ‘[email protected]’ or any other fake email. The point is to get as many signatures as possible. Thank you for your political patronage AND please, pass this around to anyone you think would be interested in signing it. Thank you!

    Sign this petition at:

    http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/irefusetopay/
  • Kaiser
    I'm still confused why we Americans are more anti-American, than anyone associated with al-Qa'eda.

    Have we lost our sense of nationalism? (Yes--It's not nice to be American)

    Do we care about our future? (No-- Let's all go bankrupt, and get bailed out. We don't need to earn our freedom.)

    You know, the best way to fix our situation may ultimately be to accept the inevitable: failure. We need to fail, so we can actually fix our problems. I'm getting more and more depressed about the state of the Union, when we're bailing out failures, instead of holding them accountable. (Ford, Chrysler, GM, AIG, FreddieMac, FannieMae, etc) Since when was it the job of America to fix their mistakes? What benefits did they provide our nation? The false sense of safety? I don't remember the last time I heard any of those above listed companies ever provide a legitimate service. From what I've heard, they've screwed their employees, their consumers, and the nation through their activities.

    This just in: Microsoft just asked for bailout money. The richest man in the world (currently--Bill Gates) can't cut expenditures to keep up with decreasing revenues... And they're asking to be bailed out. Really? 

    This leaves me with the following thought: What the hell? Our nation doesn't deserve it's freedom, and power in the world. We don't. We can't fight a war. We can't uphold proper ethics. We teach our children to not earn a living. We don't offer anything anymore. Small countries are laughing at us.

    This is a problem that has been propogated by both parties. Not just the Democrats. Not just the Republicans. Idiots on both sides have destroyed our value.
  • JackieM
    David--real tax cuts for small businesses and working folks did not get us into this mess.  so you are saying that $13/week will stimulate the economy?  what if taxpayers received $100 or more a week (provided they would normally pay at least $100 in taxes anyway).  would that stimulate the economy?  maybe!  if you are for the obama/pelosi bill, i have news for you:  obama wanted more tax cuts for the middleclass but thanks to him not having a backbone, he didn't get them but signed the bill anyway.  he is no leader!  David, by the way the investment class is defined as most Americans since they have some kind of retirement plans.
  • davidwwalters
    Again....."pork", "stimulus","wasteful spending" are all words.....yet all of them inject cash into an economy that is stagnant.  How do you move stagnant water?  You create flow, and with that analogy, we need to get money flowing again JackieM....
    Tax cuts for the investment class seems to have been part of the catalyst for the the mess we're in now.  All this money  seems to have been burning a hole in their collective, proverbial pocket.....all these bundled mortgages were snaped up by someone seeking a "good return"......
    But then what do i know......i don't "have actual business experience in the way the economy actually works (not from books)" so, i don't  "understand this."
  • JackieM
    I don't agree with doing something is better than nothing since a lot of the stimulus plan was pork.  it is like saying i have $100 and it is better to blow it on candy for my consumption than to invest it for my future.  throwing hard-earned taxpayer money into a black hole is not better than spending it wisely.  our children and grandchildren will pay a tremendous price for the decisions that obama and the left-wing nuts in Washington have made.
  • boby
    I like the stimulus the government needs to bolster demand somehow.  The problem with the stimulus is politicians.  It's impossible to pass a good stimulus bill because there are so many varying points of view.  Some think tax cuts others think spending is the way to go the end result is what we got.  Which is the best congress is going to be able to do.  The good thing is there is political will to do something which right now is better than nothing.  So we should stop complaining and just be happy our leaders where able to do something.
  • Michael R
    Obama,
    "if Congress passes our plan, this company will be able to rehire some of the folks who were just laid off."

    Jim Owens, the CEO of Caterpillar
    "I think realistically no. The truth is we're going to have more layoffs before we start hiring again"... "is a little light on the heavy construction."

    Caterpillar CEO Contradicts Obama
    http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=6866999
  • davidwwalters
    Michael R.   
    <<
    Instead, (Jim Rogers, former partner of George Soros and one of the world's most successful investors,) urges the UK authorities to take the radical step of allowing the commercial banks to fail.>>
    Michael, you know, there is merit to this proposal.  What if we did?  Many of the repercussion that may spin off of such an event may indeed be helpful to our nation, and hurtful to our creditors(China?)......
    With the resources we do in fact have access to in our own country could spark a resurgence of our failing industrial capacity.  I've pondered this more than a few times.
  • Michael R.
    Belefast Telegraph

    Britain will go bankrupt - learn Chinese and move to China, says investment guru


    Thursday, 22 January 2023


    When asked his advice for a young person growing up in Britain, Jim Rogers, former partner of George Soros and one of the world's most successful investors, is forthright. "Move to China; learn Chinese." Mr Rogers warns that Britain will go bankrupt if the Government continues to follow its present policy of attempting to save the banks through subsidy and nationalisation.

    Mr Rogers is still more forthright in his advice to the Prime Minister, who he urges to resign, but not before abolishing the Bank of England. "They are the ones printing all this money," he said. "Central bankers are not gods or geniuses; why does anyone think they are?"


    The US Federal Reserve, Mr Rogers thinks, is also on the road to bankruptcy, and he points out that the US has already had three central banks in its history. Instead, the Singapore-based billionaire urges the UK authorities to take the radical step of allowing the commercial banks to fail. He cites the example of South Korea, Russia and other nations where such financial violence was followed by a renewed burst of growth and prosperity, in a relatively short space of time.
    In the overwhelmingly likely event of Mervyn King and Gordon Brown ignoring Mr Rogers' advice, the "crushing" burden of debt and of taxation to service that debt will bankrupt the UK, "technically or de facto", with a "terrible" inflation to follow.
  • davidwwalters
    <<Jon Stewart ripped Bill O'Reilly on Monday night's "Daily Show" over his hypocritical stance on privacy.
    O'Reilly, whose producers proudly ambush anyone who disagrees with him, has taken up as one of his pet causes the privacy of celebrities stalked by paparazzi.>>
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/02/10/jon-st...
  • davidwwalters
    Yeah, Michael R. i did!  Watchin' last nite's John Stewart now, all those famous "I'm sorry's"   -Nixon's was the best!(just to be fair, Clinton's was 2nd)......
    How 'bout that crack Sen. Arlen S. made on Laura Ingram? 
    INGRAHAM: "Is it nice to be wined and dined at the White House? And, you're treated pretty well when you're a Republican bucking other Republicans, right Senator?"

    SPECTER: "Now let's get off it Laura. I'm not drinking any wine at the White House and I don't dine at the White House. If the president wants to talk to me -- I talk to him and I make my own independent judgment. Don't give me the wine and dine baloney, young lady."
    Didn't get to listen to Mortimer(Rush) today.....i try for his slant as well, but my girlfriend absolutely will not listen to him,   hell, he's funny!
    If i have time, i'll tune in for a dose of O'Reilly later.
  • davidwwalters
    Yeah, Michael R. i did!  Watchin' last nite's John Stewart now, all those famous "I'm sorry's"   -Nixon's was the best!(just to be fair, Clinton's was 2nd)......
    How 'bout that crack Sen. Arlen S. made on Laura Ingram? 
    INGRAHAM: "Is it nice to be wined and dined at the White House? And, you're treated pretty well when you're a Republican bucking other Republicans, right Senator?"

    SPECTER: "Now let's get off it Laura. I'm not drinking any wine at the White House and I don't dine at the White House. If the president wants to talk to me -- I talk to him and I make my own independent judgment. Don't give me the wine and dine baloney, young lady."
    Didn't get to listen to Mortimer(Rush) today.....i try for his slant as well, but my girlfriend absolutly will not listen to him,   hell, he's funny!
    If i have time, i'll tune in for a dose of O'Reilly later.
  • Michael R.
    Did you just finish watching Keith Olberman before those post?  I am not sure what time zone you are in so I can't match the time so it just as easily could have been Mathews.
  • davidwwalters
    "The New Paradigm for Financial Markets: The Credit Crisis of 2008 and What it Means"
    -yeah, sure Sean&Mortimer(Rush) would approve of George Soros, being Billy Clinton's bank way back.....but whatever else you may think of him, he knows how to money from the market....
  • davidwwalters
    Like the energizer bunny.......

    "Obama, Democrates Refuse to Listen to the American People"
    ...it seems some Republican's(most?) have wax in their ears......it's time to give it up Michael;  Bush Jr. was a wreck for the American Nation.  The Millennium Plot was thwarted.....and 9-11 happened less than 2 years later on Bush Jr.'s watch.  This economic meltdown occurred on his watch, thankfully near the end of his term.  Hopefully President Obama can fix it, but it may have been more than the world economy can handle........and America may never recover.

    -you keep going.....
  • Michael R
    Could we also get some congressional hearings on who did this?

    KANJORSKI: On Thursday [Sept 18] at about 11 o'clock in the morning the Federal Reserve noticed a tremendous drawdown of money market accounts in the United States, to the tune of $550 billion was being drawn out in a matter of an hour or two. The Treasury opened up its window to help. It pumped $105 billion in the system and quickly realized that they could not stem the tide; we were having an electronic run on the banks. They decided to close the operation, close down the money accounts and announce a guarantee of $250,000 per account so there wouldn't be further panic out there.
    KANJORSKI:  If they had not done that, their estimation was that by two o'clock that afternoon, five-and-a-half trillion dollars would have been drawn out of the money market system of the United States, would have collapsed the entire economy of the United States, and within 24 hours the world economy would have collapsed.  It would have been the end of our economic system and our political system as we know it.  We're really no better off today than we were three months ago because we've had a decrease in the equity positions of banks because other assets are going sour by the moment.

    Who drewdown that money?  Why are their not congressional inquiries right now?
  • Alex
    There is a great visual diagram of where the stimulus is going to be spent over at Left Right News http://www.leftrightnews.com.  Left Right News does a good job of posting the latest breaking headlines and it seems to have a conservative bent to it.

    If you life Drudge report, you'll like http://www.rightleftnews.com
  • Michael R.
    Did you read "Against All Enemies" (by Richard Clarke)

    Do you mean the book of Clarke's where he said in reference to the Millennium Plot's handling by the Clinton Administration as an example of "exactly how things shouldn't be run."? 

    This is getting very old.  If you think I was using Clarke or Berger as any credible source then you need to take some time, reread what is posted above.  As I have told you in another thread where the arguments are all the same tired old MSNBC "vast right wing consipiracy" rhetoric, let everyone else read our exchanges, research it themselves and come up to their own conclusion.  I am locked in mine and you are locked in yours so let the others decide on here.
  • davidwwalters
    "There you go again....."  -was it Ron Reagan?
    "There were a couple of points, including in December, where there was intelligence indicative of bin Laden's whereabouts," former National Security Adviser Sandy Berger told The Associated Press. "But I can categorically tell you that at no point was it ripe enough to act."
    "The Kool Aid is strong with you my friend."
    -This puzzles me, are you refering to The Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test?

    But back to the point of this little tale......it isn't that Sandy Berger did commit a crime(he did).....it's that the real crime against the American people that was done by the Bush Administration as testified about by both Richard Clarke AND Sandy Berger....
    -this is why i charge you with obfuscation(the process of darkening or obscuring so as to hinder ready analysis)
    Did you read "Against All Enemies" (by Richard Clarke),
    -i find it fascinating you'd want to cite him as a defense of the Bush Administration....
  • Michael R.
    Are you just having a conversation with yourself?  "no legal authority" is what my sources say about the reasoning, not for killing, but accepting a Sudanese offer to hand over Bin Laden in March of 1996.  Or do you think that didn't happen?  What do your sources tell you?

    Sandy Berger was caught red handed after the third time of taking documents and said he was just careless.  It is a felony, but it was pleaded down to a midemeanor even though he ADMITTED to intentionally destroying National Archive Documents which you or I would be sitting in a jail for doing.

    The Kool Aid is strong with you my friend.
  • davidwwalters
    Michael R. (61)
    ......who was that guy that said,  "There you go again....."
    << But I sure you are right, Bush made him do it.  (and after all of this he finds himself in Team Obama, go figure)>>
    -Thanks for pointing out what i DIDN'T say.....
    My point was, Sandy Berger wanted to see what Richard Clarke had said.....
    (can you say obfuscation?)
    But i am sure that Sandy Berger's crime was as serious as you'd like some to believe......wasn't he convicted of a misdemeanor?  I was under the impression (by my de-briefing from the army) that such activity you described was a felony......maybe i'm wrong, after all, someone here said.....i must be an idiot.  (Was that you ML Smith?)

    U.S.S Cole.....sad tale.(weren't there any armed guards on duty around such a high value target?)  Yes Clinton could have "possibly"(as you like to say).......killed Bin Laden, but from what i heard he was not willing to be responsible for the collateral damage.  Why, what did your sources say?
  • Michael R.
    As for Sandy Berger, seeing as how he destroyed 3 of the 5 copies of the Millennium Alert After Action Report each of which is said to have hand written notes on them, its hard to say what, of for whom he was protecting although he was acting as former President Clinton's designated representative to the 9/11 commission.  But I sure you are right, Bush made him do it.  (and after all of this he finds himself in Team Obama, go figure)

    Just so you do not accuse me of leaving anything out or cherry picking information, here is the full detail of his theft.
    Mr. Berger, while acting as former President Clinton's designated representative to the commission investigating the attacks of September 11, 2001,illegally took confidential documents from the Archives on more than one occasion. He folded documents in his clothes, snuck them out of the Archives building, and stashed them under a construction trailer nearby until he could return, retrieve them, and later cut them up. After he was caught, he lied to the investigators and tried to shift blame to Archive employees.
    Is this a joke David?  Turn off MSNBC and NPR and do a bit of research.  These ongoing Olberman and Mathews type arguments are getting tired and old.
  • Michael R.
    Ok, here is the whole thing that I took an excert from...


    MR. BOB KERREY, Committee Member: Well, I think it's an unfortunate figure of speech because I think -- especially after the attack on the Cole on the 12th of August -- October 2000. It would have been a swatting a fly. It would not have been -- we did not need to wait to get a strategic plan. Dick Clarke had in his memo on the 20th of January overt military operations as a -- he turned that memo around in 24 hours, Dr. Clarke. There were a lot of plans in place in the Clinton administration, military plans in the Clinton administration. In fact, just since we're in the mood to declassify stuff, he included in his January 25th memo two appendixes: Appendix A, "Strategy for the Elimination of the Jihadist Threat of al Qaeda;" Appendix B, "Political- Military Plan for al Qaeda."
    So I just -- why didn't we respond to the Cole? Why didn't we swat that fly?
    MS. RICE: I believe that there is a question of whether or not you respond in a tactical sense or whether you respond in a strategic sense, whether or not you decide that you are going to respond to every attack with minimal use of military force and go after every -- on a kind of tit-for-tat basis. By the way, in that memo, Dick Clarke talks about not doing this tit for tat, doing this on a time of our choosing.
    Yes, the Cole had happened. We received, I think, on January 25th the same assessment or roughly the same assessment of who was responsible for the Cole that Sandy Berger talked to you about. It was preliminary. It was not clear. But that was not the reason that we felt that we did not want to, quote, "respond to the Cole."
    We knew that the options that had been employed by the Clinton administration had been standoff options. The President had -- meaning missile strikes, or perhaps bombers would have been possible, long-range bombers, although getting in place the apparatus to use long-range bombers is even a matter of whether you have basing in the region.
    We knew that Osama bin Laden had been, in something that was provided to me, bragging that he was going to withstand any response, and then he was going to emerge and come out stronger. We --
    …We simply believed that the best approach was to put in place a plan that was going to eliminate this threat, not respond to it, tit-for-tat.
    MS. RICE: The fact is that what we were presented on January the 25th was a set of ideas -- and a paper, most of which was about what the Clinton administration had done, and something called the Delenda plan, which had been considered in 1998 and never adopted.
    We decided to take a different track. We decided to put together a strategic approach to this that would get the regional powers -- the problem wasn't that you didn't have a good counterterrorism person. The problem was you didn't have approach against al Qaeda because you didn't have an approach against Afghanistan, and you didn't have an approach against Afghanistan because you didn't have an approach against Pakistan. And until we could get that right, we didn't have a policy.
    In the memorandum that Dick Clarke sent me on January 25th, he mentions sleeper cells. There is no mention or recommendation of anything that needs to be done about them. And the FBI was pursuing them. And usually when things come to me it's because I'm supposed to do something about it, and there was no indication that the FBI was not adequately pursuing the sleeper cells.
  • davidwwalters
    -Michael R, didn' Sandy Berger, take  documents authored by Richard Clarke, which were highly critical of Bush Jr.'s handling of foreign policy matters?)  to testify at the 9-11 Commission......
    i mean, don't just take Sandy Berger's word for it, take Mr. Clarke's assessment as well my friend.   Again, you cite only portions of Mr. Clarke's testimony
    -(Shame!  Half truths? again?)
    ....didn't Clarke testify before the 9-11 commission that Bush was too preoccupied with Iraq to prosecute the war in Afghanistan (something our sitting Cmd-in-Chief used in his stump speeches)?  Get it righ Michael......get the BIG picture, and don't "cherry pick"
  • Michael R.
    let me ammend the above, there was more but I sent it too soon.  One more time.....

    I do not feel "belittled" by anyone who sites a man who stuffed national securtiy intel docs from the national archive down his pants and left the building with it.  By the way, any word yet on what was in those docs.


    From the National Security Archive;
    The Delenda Plan
    "We decided to take a different track. We decided to put together a strategic approach to this that would get the regional powers -- the problem wasn't that you didn't have a good counterterrorism person.  The problem was you didn't have approach against al Qaeda because you didn't have an approach against Afghanistan, and you didn't have an approach against Afghanistan because you didn't have an approach against Pakistan. And until we could get that right, we didn't have a policy."

    "In the memorandum that Dick Clarke sent me on January 25th, he mentions sleeper cells. There is no mention or recommendation of anything that needs to be done about them. And the FBI was pursuing them. And usually when things come to me it's because I'm supposed to do something about it, and there was no indication that the FBI was not adequately pursuing the sleeper cells. " Condoleezza Rice


    Richard Clarke
    "There was no plan on al Qaida that was passed from the Clinton administration to the Bush administration." Clarke also noted how Bush changed the Clinton administration terror tactics "from one of rollback of al-Qaeda over the course of five years, which it had been, to a new strategy that called for the rapid elimination of al-Qaeda.”
  • Michael R.
    I do not feel "belittled" by anyone who sites a man who stuffed national securtiy intel docs from the national archive down his pants and left the building with it.  By the way, any word yet on what was in those docs.


    From the National Security Archive;
    The Delenda Plan
    "We decided to take a different track. We decided to put together a strategic approach to this that would get the regional powers -- the problem wasn't that you didn't have a good counterterrorism person.  The problem was you didn't have approach against al Qaeda because you didn't have an approach against Afghanistan, and you didn't have an approach against Afghanistan because you didn't have an approach against Pakistan. And until we could get that right, we didn't have a policy."

    Richard Clark
    "There was no plan on al Qaida that was passed from the Clinton administration to the Bush administration." Clarke also noted how Bush changed the Clinton administration terror tactics "from one of rollback of al-Qaeda over the course of five years, which it had been, to a new strategy that called for the rapid elimination of al-Qaeda.”

  • davidwwalters
    << And Shannon is correct that while they sat in jail, those buildings still fell into a heap of fire>>
    -Michael R (55)
    Yes this is a good point you made.  And not to belittle you though, Sandy Berger tried to warn Ms. Rice and FBI field agents tried to warn their superiors, yet somehow the terrorists armed with box cutters were able to take control of several aircraft with disastrous results.  i am not a huge fan of Bill Clinton, but after the 1993 attacks, he did a fairly good job in countering Al-Queda terrorist attacks(except maybe the U.S.S. Cole).
    It seems clear to me that one of 2 things plagued the Bush Administration prior to 9-11:
    1)  They were asleep on the job
    2)  They simply ignored the clear danger, for what ever reason.
    Me?   -i think they were asleep on the job.  Have you ever heard of the "Peter principle"?  i believe it applies to Bush/Cheney in this context.
  • Michael R.
    "So we are told by our leaders that we have killed one terrorist or another, and it makes some of us feel better."

    Embrace the suck soldier.  Unfortunately there are certain realities that we must face.  You are correct in that we arrested Abdel-Rahman and his co-conspirators for the 93 bombing of the WTC.  And Shannon is correct that while they sat in jail, those buildings still fell into a heap of fire. (after which we arrested Khalid Sheik Mohammed, mastermind of the attack)

    The bombings are not what Bin Laden sighted as his reasoning for Jihad on the West, rather it was Western Troops in Saudi Arabia and the continued support of Isreal.  Now which would you choose to give up first?  Obama says he wants to make peace with the world, but according to our enemies, far beyond Bin Laden, these are the main points of contension-- so do we make nice?

    Every war has unintended casualties (nicer word than collateral) and yet some wars are won.  Those wars are won because there are clear cut victors and clear cut losers and this is a truism that is found in every war throughout history.  America, when it came to terrorism has fought a war of attrition using tit for tat tactics never allowing for a victory.  You are advocating we back off of even the tit for tat that the Clinton Admin employed by sending in a cruise missle here and there and imposing sanctions which as Iran said yesterday, actually advanced their cause in some ways.

    Obama is in charge now and I have no doubt that the public line is that we have changed our policies "to please someone higher up lower on the food chain" but that theory will be put to the test, daily.  So we shall see.
  • davidwwalters
    <<I may be a civilian but I also know what happened to those two building despite you arresting those guys.  3000 people died and the buildings burned and collapsed and all that after your "far better solution".>>

    No, you're not stupid Shannon. Perhaps you're right......we should bomb the hell out of 'em, to hell if we kill a few innocents.  After all, 3,000+ died in NYC on 9-11, right?  That'll show 'em.....after all Americans are the toughest, strongest, best......a real superpower.
    So we are told by our leaders that we have killed one terrorist or another, and it makes some of us feel better.  We ignore, or in some cases are not even told of the deaths of some bystander.  What difference does it make so long as we got one of the bad guys. It doesn't really matter if the older brother of one innocent victim decides to join the jihad.....
    Yeah, i had my hat handed to me, i am sure.  We should just kill and not worry about any consequence of our actions, and this thing will continue long after i am dead.  I have seen the faces of the living and the dead.  Both of them spoke to me in a way that will always remain simply an abstraction to you Shannon.
  • Shannon
    David says.....
    "Bringing a terrorist to justice in a court of law is a far better solution than to bomb suspected terrorists and cause the deaths of innocents instead...
    Salameh, Nidal Ayyad, Mahmud Abouhalima and Ahmad Ajaj,
    -who were each convicted in the World Trade Center bombing."

    I may be a civilian but I also know what happened to those two building despite you arresting those guys.  3000 people died and the buildings burned and collapsed and all that after your "far better solution".

    I still say you were handed your hat David by someone who seems to have you beet on the intellectual front.   Go ahead, tell me how wrong and dumb I am but I guess everyone will have to read all of what you said vs him and decide for themeselves.  Thank you for your service!
  • davidwwalters
    Shannon....
    What a civilian doesn't realize is that on the surface it is true that predator drones and AC-130 gunships if fact killed someone.  I have in fact called in an air strike(Grenada 1983,i saw the decapitated head of one of my victims, it was a civilian, along with a combatant.....)
    -in fact collateral damage (ie. DEAD civilians) does occur.  It would appear to the uninitiated that Michael took a head off , when in fact, to those with some knowledge of these matters, you are showing your own ignorance to the big picture.  Killing civilians in our "War on Terror" is creating more enemies for us, and these guys are serious about killing us......why give them even more excuses?
    Bringing a terrorist to justice in a court of law is a far better solution than to bomb suspected terrorists and cause the deaths of innocents instead...
    Salameh, Nidal Ayyad, Mahmud Abouhalima and Ahmad Ajaj,
    -who were each convicted in the World Trade Center bombing. In May 1994, they were sentenced to life imprisonment(have they escaped yet?).....is the BEST method of justice.
    Following the Rule of Law is more difficult, but it is the only way our nation can claim it's status of moral superiority.  Without moral superiority, we lose cooperation of friends and allies whose help is critical in securing real intelligence on suspects who we NEED to  bring to justice.
    <<Fazul Abdullah Mohammed
    U.S Embassy Bombing 1998
    Status: Possibly killed in Somalia,.......>>
    Doesn't it make sense to be sure ("General consensus among terrorism experts......")? Or is it just your opinion that a simple body count counts as justice?  So who is "full of crap"........
    Shortly after my experience in Grenada, i was injured on a training "jump".
    I had to change my MOS from airborne infantry(11B-2P) to 81Q-2P.....a Military Geographical Intelligence Specialist......I held a TS.  I know from first hand experience how intel is manipulated to please someone higher up on the food chain.  This is the mistake the Bush Administration has made in the "War on Terror".......the intel was tailored to suit the preconceived notions of some of our so-called leaders.  So take the advice of someone with experience instead of some cut&paste "expert".
  • Shannon
    David says...
    "In Basic Training at Ft. Benning,  there was an entire day devoted to the Geneva Convention, and the treatment of enemy combatants. "

    you sound like a real expert next to this guy David.  If I were you I would take note that I am in way over my head.  I thought he was full of crap until I looked up some of the names and he is correct.  Go home David, live to fight another day there soldier, he just about took your head off.
  • Michael R.
    David,
    Others who the Bush Administration has tracked down.  Sometimes indictments and legal procedures are not enough as was found out by the Clinton Administration with Bin Laden who was first indicted in 1998, imposed sanctions against Afghanistan to force their cooperation and the result was, well what it was.  The Bush Administration put a death sentence on him as well as other co conspirators in not just the WTC attacks, but other attacks against America and its people.  
    Mohammed Atef
    U.S Embassy Bombing 1998
    Status: Killed in Afghanistan on November 14, 2022 by a Predator missile attack on his home outside of Kabul.
    Fazul Abdullah Mohammed
    U.S Embassy Bombing 1998
    Status: Possibly killed in Somalia, January 8th, 2007, by an AC-130 gunship attack led by the cooperation of U.S. and Ethiopian forces.
    Mustafa Mohamed Fadhil
    U.S Embassy Bombing 1998
    Status: General consensus among terrorism experts is he was captured in Pakistan in 2004.
    Fahid Mohammed Ally Msalam
    U.S Embassy Bombing 1998
    Status: Killed January 1, 2009, in an unmanned predator strike in Pakistan along with Sheikh Ahmed Salim Swedan.
    Ahmed Khalfan Ghailani
    U.S Embassy Bombing 1998
    Status: Captured in Pakistan on July 25, 2004.
    Sheikh Ahmed Salim Swedan
    U.S Embassy Bombing 1998
    Status: Killed January 1, 2009, in an unmanned predator strike in Pakistan along with Fahid Mohammed Ally Msalam.
    Saif Al-Adel
    U.S Embassy Bombing 1998
    Rumored to have been arrested in Iran.
    Muhsin Musa Matwalli Atwah
    U.S Embassy Bombing 1998
    Status: Killed April 12, 2023 along with 6 other militants by Pakistani forces in a helicopter gunship raid on the village of  Naghar Kalai near the Afghan border.


    These are just a few more to add to your list of terrorist brought to justice under that evil Bush Regime.  Do you want more?  I have a whole Libya file to throw your way if you would like.
  • Michael R.
    David,
    Not to be disrespectful, but I am assuming that Intelligence when you were in the army was not your MOS.
    "-and various other Iraqi Army Officers seem to inhabit your list of successes.  But were they responsible for the attacks on the WTC?  No, Bin Laden still resides somewhere, making videos"
    I listed only associates of Al-Qaeda in Iraq who had dual roles both as Iraqi Military and or Intel and as members or supporters of Al-Qaeda.  Do you notice any big holes in my list?  Do you see one name that does not stand out of a prominent Al-Qaeda member who was the "mastermind" of the WTC attack?  I left out Khalid Sheikh Mohammed who was apprehended in Rawalpindi, Pakistan and was CHARGED February 11, 2023 with war crimes and murder by a U.S Military Commision and faces the death penalty if convicted. 
    PER THE 9/11 Commision
    "the principal architect of the 9/11 attacks". He is also thought to have had, or has confessed to, a role in many of the most significant terrorist plots over the last twenty years, including the  World Trade Center 1993 bombings, the Operation Bojinka plot, an aborted 2002 attack on Los Angeles' U.S Bank Tower, the Bali nightclub bombings, the failed bombing of  American Airlines Flight 63, the Millennium Plot, and the murder of Daniel Pearl.
    Captured under the Bush Administration and on December 8, 2022 confessed along with his co-defendants and expressed their desire to plead guilty,  yet his trial is now on HOLD per orders of the OBAMA administration.

    We have hunted, captured and killed terrorist throught the world regarless of where they have hidden.  This is all open sourse information that I am giving you here.

    Jamal-Al-Badawi was ordered released:  WHY?
    Jamal-al-Badawi was granted his freedom after turning himself in 15 days ago and pledging loyalty to Yemeni President Ali Abdullah Saleh, said the official, speaking on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak to the media.  The official said police were told by the government to "stop all previous orders concerning measures adopted against al-Badawi.  AP



    -As i recall from my history class, our "Minute Men" had no uniforms either my friend.

    David, are you, a former American Soldier, comparing enemies of the United States to the Minute Men?  I am embarrassed for you sir.  Your views both of history and current events seem skewed by partisan hatred and utter neglect and disregard for the truth. 
    Am I wrong on any FACTS that I gave you above.  Reread my post.  Reread your questions and ask yourself, as an American, as a solidier, as a human being, are you on the right side of history in this debate?  You, Dora and others I am sure I have not had the "pleasure" of meeting yet should really do some soul searching and come to grips with why you have such hatred and misguided views regarding our country.  I wish you well sir because you have served our country and I and others here appreciate that but do not turn around and do a diservice by looking over what is in front of your eyes, TRUTH.

    I know you will not read this.  I know that at best I will get a skim over by you but look at the tone of your post.  Look at the quick jabs against Rush, Bush, Cheney, and any other Conservative name that happens to pop into your head at the time.  I hope one day you will realize the good that you, and the rest of this country has done....one day.

  • davidwwalters
    Michael R....
    The litany of problems you listed in 46 were handed to President Obama, wrapped with a bow, thanks to the previous administration.  Unlike Mortimer Limbaugh, i wish our president well in attempting to fix all the problems of that most F**k's-UP administration ever.....
  • davidwwalters
    Michael R.....
    "Abed was a former Iraqi general"
    " Al-Mashadani, "the former leader of the Military Bureau in Baghdad during the Saddam Hussein regime"

    -and various other Iraqi Army Officers seem to inhabit your list of successes.  But were they responsible for the attacks on the WTC?  No, Bin Laden still resides somewhere, making videos....
    "Jamal-Al-Badawi was sentenced to death in 2004 for his role in the bombing, but escaped from jail early in 2006. He handed himself in two weeks ago. The US, which lost 17 sailors in the attack on the Cole.  Ordered released.
    -Why?
    But the point is,
    it may be impossible to seek justice for any of these terrorists who have been captured so far, since the Bush Administration has compromised their legal status with their torture.  I remember swearing in (in the Army).....to uphold The Constitution.   In Basic Training at Ft. Benning,  there was an entire day devoted to the Geneva Convention, and the treatment of enemy combatants.   And don't give me this mealy mouth "illegal enemy combatant" shit either.
    -As i recall from my history class, our "Minute Men" had no uniforms either my friend.
  • Michael R.
    David, You need to understand that Bin Laden is not on the loose, he is on the run. The most dangerous terrorist in any thinking mans book is not the last one, but rather the next one.

    1. Afghan tensions are high and growing daily between Obama and Karzi
    . On the eve of the U.S. inauguration, his office announced that Afghanistan and Russia had agreed to cooperate more closely on defense matters. During a speech to the Afghan parliament on Jan. 20, President Hamid Karzai expressed a litany of complaints about the West and the new administration.
    2. Access to Afghanistan is being cut in Kyrgystan. "The fate of the air base has been sealed; there is no doubt the bill to revoke the basing agreement will be ratified" Kyrgyz President Kurmanbek Bakiyev stunned Washington when he announced the closure of the base earlier this week after securing more than $2 billion in financial aid and credit from Russia.
    3. Pakistan warns Obama of severing ties. Pakistan has told America it has the choice of “reviewing its options” (meaning Russia) after President Barack Obama warned aid to the country would depend on its cooperation in the war on terror. According to the envoy, "Bush was more inclined to Pakistan. Obama should hear us out. He must pay attention to other factors in the region."

    And that is just one area of the world that is "hot" right now. Any of this make you feel safer? Naivety, as others like Biden and Clinton accused Obama of is not what will stop the next strike. Appearing on Al-Arabiya is not the path to garner faith in the American people or show our enemies that we still have the resolve to do what it takes to track them down once and for all. But you may feel different however these are the facts that we are dealing with today.

    Now how about the stimulus package. These Liberals have such a one track mind but I shall stay focused from here on out!
  • Michael R.
    "I hope President Obama can straighten out this mess"

    Doing a good job so far....you get the news, right?

    "Kyrgyzstan will not reverse its decision to close a U.S. air base on its territory that is key to American and NATO operations in Afghanistan, a top Kyrgyz security official said Friday. Losing Manas now would pose a serious challenge to President Barack Obama's plan to send up to 30,000 more U.S. forces to fight surging Taliban and Al Qaeda violence in Afghanistan."
  • Michael R.
    Both Today, both under Obama's watch....

    2004 confession that AQ Khan was involved in the proliferation of nuclear technology to Iran, North Korea and Libya.  Feb. 6, 2009 ordered released.
    Jamal-Al-Badawi was sentenced to death in 2004 for his role in the bombing, but escaped from jail early in 2006. He handed himself in two weeks ago. The US, which lost 17 sailors in the attack on the Cole.  Ordered released.

    Under Bush's watch however/caught or killed
    Abdel Fatih Isa - former Iraqi Army officer and al Qaeda emir
    Ahmad Hasan Kaka al-'Ubaydi - Ahmad Hasan Kaka al-'Ubaydi is a former Iraqi Intelligence Service officer, and is now believed associated with Ansar Al Islam affiliate.
    Rafid Ibrahim Fattah - He traveled throughout Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran and Iraq for the last 15 years, forming a relationship with al-Qaida in 1999. He served as a liaison between terrorist networks, as an operations officer coordinating the activities of the various terrorist groups, and as a security chief for a terrorist training camp in Afghanistan, according to the U.S. military.
    Kurdi moved to Iraq in 1992, joining the Islamic Movement of Kurdistan.
    Muhammed Hila Hammad Ubaydi - aka Abu Ayman, Until his capture, Abu Ayman, the former aide to the Chief of Staff of Intelligence during the Saddam Hussein regime for 30 years, was the leader of the Secret Islamic Army in the Northern Babil Province . Abu Ayman has strong ties to terror leader Abu Musab Al-Zarqawi, still considered the head of Al-Qaeda in Iraq .

    Izzat Ibrahim al-Douri
    - possibly dead, "The former vice chairman of Saddam's Baathist Revolutionary Command Council. He swore fealty to Zarqawi last year and commands a significant element of the Baathist/al Qaeda converts. H has significant links in Syria and is an important source of funding for al Qaeda in Iraq (link)."
    Unidentified man - "The man who was killed was later identified as a retired officer in the Iraqi Air Force serving under the Saddam Hussein regime. The male who initiated the gunfire is a suspected al-Qaeda terrorist for whom the troops were searching, as well as the retired officer's son. "
    Abu Asim - A former Special Republican Guard officer under Saddam Hussein, authorities believe Abu Asim has been active within the insurgency since the fall of the former regime. Associate of Abu Musab al Zarqawi
    Fadhil Ibrahim Mahmud Al-Mashadani, "the former leader of the Military Bureau in Baghdad during the Saddam Hussein regime, was apprehended by security forces in a military operation conducted at a farm in the northeast of Baghdad," a government statement said."
    Abu Talha, also known as Mohammed Khalaf Shkarah al-Hamadani , a key facilitator and financier for al Qaeda, the purported head of Abu Musab Al Zarqawi's terror cell and former member of Saddam Hussein's once ruling Baath Party and a warrant officer in the former Iraqi army

    Abed Dawood Suleiman and his son, Raed Abed Dawood, - Abed was a former Iraqi general believed to be Jordanian extremist Abu Musab al-Zarqawi's "military adviser", his son Raed was a former Army captain in the Iraqi arm

    And just before the first bombs fell on Iraq, Abu Nidal was found "ridiled with bullets" in his Baghdad apartment (ruled a suicide).  Widely regarded as the world's most dangerous terrorist leader and responsible for killing more Americans prior to Sept. 11th than any other man.


    Those are facts.
  • davidwwalters
    <<Relations between the new Obama administration and Afghanistan didn't get off to a good start Sunday when Afghan President Hamid Karzai angrily condemned a US operation that he said killed 16 civilians.>>
    I suppose this is all President Obama's fault?
    Michael R....
    for 7 years we've been bogged down in Afghanistan, while we wasted the lives of 4,000+ of our sons&daughters for Bush?Cheney's war in Iraq.  These are the facts, and I hope President Obama can straighten out this mess made by your man(excuse me for stretching that term.....)
    February 26, 1993, the WTC was attacked the first time.  Justice was served against four men convicted of carrying out the bombing: Abouhalima, Ajaj, Ayyad and Salameh,  in March 1994.  On September 11, 2023 the attack was carried out again on Bush's watch, and to date there have been how many convictions?   Obama is still loose now, who knows where, while our excursion into Iraq has drained our once great nation in blood&money.
  • Michael R.
    OOPS, I forgot to address the
    " -to have your " high level intellectual debate".......
    -it would help if you used actual factual information."

    New York Daily News


    Afghanistan president Hamid Karzai rips deadly U.S. raid
    BY HELEN KENNEDY
    DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITER
    Monday, January 26th 2009, 1:12 AM
    <!-- ARTICLE CONTENT START -->
    Relations between the new Obama administration and Afghanistan didn't get off to a good start Sunday when Afghan President Hamid Karzai angrily condemned a US operation that he said killed 16 civilians.
    This loss of credibility over the two wars that many on both the right but primarily the left is one of the reasons that we have a hard time trusting anything today.  Obama is the leader of discontent by way of the Alinsky Model. "rub raw the sores of discontent," Saul Alinsky's
    Mike Kruglik, Obama Mentor- The New Republic, about Obama:

    "He was a natural, the undisputed master of agitation, who could engage a room full of recruiting targets in a rapid-fire Socratic dialogue, nudging them to admit that they were not living up to their own standards. As with the panhandler, he could be aggressive and confrontational. With probing, sometimes personal questions, he would pinpoint the source of pain in their lives, tearing down their egos just enough before dangling a carrot of hope that they could make things better."


    Now this President is saying that debate over a massive bill that does not provide the stimulus it promises in name is calling any debate against it "Tired GOP Arguments"  Andrew, the people you speak of will get help through actual stimulus

    CNN.com

    • $2 billion earmark to re-start FutureGen, a near-zero emissions coal power plant in Illinois that the Department of Energy defunded last year because it said the project was inefficient.
    • A $246 million tax break for Hollywood movie producers to buy motion picture film.
    • $650 million for the digital television converter box coupon program.
    • $88 million for the Coast Guard to design a new polar icebreaker (arctic ship).
    • $448 million for constructing the Department of Homeland Security headquarters.
    • $248 million for furniture at the new Homeland Security headquarters.
    • $600 million to buy hybrid vehicles for federal employees.
    • $400 million for the Centers for Disease Control to screen and prevent STD's.
    • $1.4 billion for rural waste disposal programs.
    <!--startclickprintexclude--> <!--endclickprintexclude-->
    • $125 million for the Washington sewer system.
    • $150 million for Smithsonian museum facilities.
    • $1 billion for the 2010 Census, which has a projected cost overrun of $3 billion.
    • $75 million for "smoking cessation activities."
    • $200 million for public computer centers at community colleges.
    • $75 million for salaries of employees at the FBI.
    • $25 million for tribal alcohol and substance abuse reduction.
    • $500 million for flood reduction projects on the Mississippi River.
    • $10 million to inspect canals in urban areas.
    • $6 billion to turn federal buildings into "green" buildings.
    • $500 million for state and local fire stations.
    • $650 million for wildland fire management on forest service lands.
    • $1.2 billion for "youth activities," including youth summer job programs.
    • $88 million for renovating the headquarters of the Public Health Service.
    • $412 million for CDC buildings and property.
    • $500 million for building and repairing National Institutes of Health facilities in Bethesda, Maryland.
    • $160 million for "paid volunteers" at the Corporation for National and Community Service.
    • $5.5 million for "energy efficiency initiatives" at the Department of Veterans Affairs National Cemetery Administration.
    • $850 million for Amtrak.
    • $100 million for reducing the hazard of lead-based paint.
    • $75 million to construct a "security training" facility for State Department Security officers when they can be trained at existing facilities of other agencies.
    • $110 million to the Farm Service Agency to upgrade computer systems.
    • $200 million in funding for the lease of alternative energy vehicles for use on military installations.
  • Michael R.

    "Perhaps the guilt should be shared with those conservatives who so vehemently support Bush Jr.'s adventures"
    davidwwalters
    Friday, February 6th, 2009
    ---------------------------------------------------------

    "One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line." Ex-President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998
    "If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program." Ex-President Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998
    "Iraq is a long way from [the USA], but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face." Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Feb 18, 2023
    "He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983." Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998 ( chief of the Obama-Biden US/UN Transition Team)
    "[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs." Letter to President Clinton, signed by Senators Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, and others Oct. 9, 1998 (Obama choice for HHS)
    "Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process." Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998
    "Hussein has chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies." Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999
    "There is no doubt that Saddam Hussein has invigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to redefine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer-range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies." Letter to President Bush, Signed by Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL,) and others, December 5, 2022
    "We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandated of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and the means of delivering them." Sen. Carl Levin (D, MI), Sept. 19, 2002
    "We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country." Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002
    "We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction." Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002
    "The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons." Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002
    "I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force if necessary to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security." Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002
    "Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power." Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002
    "There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years. We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction." Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2023
    "He has systematically violated, over the course of the past 11 years, every significant UN resolution that has demanded that he disarm and destroy his chemical and biological weapons, and any nuclear capacity. This he has refused to do" Rep. Henry Waxman (D, CA), Oct. 10, 2002
    "In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons." Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2023
    "Saddam Hussein's regime represents a grave threat to America and our allies, including our vital ally, Israel. For more than two decades, Saddam Hussein has sought weapons of mass destruction through every available means. We know that he has chemical and biological weapons. He has already used them against his neighbors and his own people, and is trying to build more. We know that he is doing everything he can to build nuclear weapons, and we know that each day he gets closer to achieving that goal." Senator John Edwards (D-NC), October 10, 2023
    "While the distance between the United States and Iraq is great, Saddam Hussein's ability to use his chemical and biological weapons against us is not constrained by geography - it can be accomplished in a number of different ways - which is what makes this threat so real and persuasive." Senator Dianne Feinstein (D-CA), October 10, 2023
    "We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction." Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), Dec. 8, 2002
    "Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime. He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation. And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction. So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real." Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003
    "The essential facts are known. We know of the weapons in Saddam's possession: chemical, biological, and nuclear in time. We know of his unequaled willingness to use them. We know his history. His invasions of his neighbors. His dreams of achieving hegemonic control over the Arab world. His record of anti-American rage. His willingness to terrorize, to slaughter, to suppress his own people and others. We need not stretch to imagine nightmare scenarios in which Saddam makes common cause with the terrorists who want to kill us Americans and destroy our way of life." Senator Joseph Lieberman (D-CT), September 13, 2023
    "Make no mistake: Saddam Hussein is a ruthless tyrant, and he must give up his weapons of mass destruction. We support the President in the course he has followed so far: working with Congress, working with the United Nations, insisting on strong and unfettered inspections. We must convince the world that Saddam Hussein is not America's problem alone; he is the world's problem. And we urge President Bush to stay this course for we are far stronger when we stand with other nations than when we stand alone." Governor Gary Locke (D-WA), January 28, 2023 Democratic Response to President Bush's "State of the Union" address
  • Andrew
    So many people I know who don't want a handout are out of jobs.  We need to pass the recovery bill so that we can stop employing them to do nothing (welfare, unemployment, no taxes, foreclosures, etc) and get them back to work where they can live and give back to society and our economy.
  • davidwwalters
    Michael R ......
    -to have your " high level intellectual debate".......
    -it would help if you used actual factual information.

    <<
    .......Some have insulted the troops saying they air raided villages and killed civilians in the night (Hamid Karzi I believe just said the same about an attack ordered under the current admin.
    ) >>

    -instead of just what you'd like to pretend  are facts.  As a former soldier, i can tell you killing civilians is a part of war......it doesn't make it right, but it just happens.  When a leader commits troops to combat, that leader is responsible, not the troops for the actions or mis-actions that are likely to occur.  The insult his on that leaders shoulders, but the guilt remains with the soldier....
    Perhaps the guilt should be shared with those conservatives who so vehemently support Bush Jr.'s adventures. "Get over it"?-(Jr. Accountant)
    It will take years to do that.
  • Jr Accountant
    Michael, you are killing me over here hahahaha

    Dora, when you're ready to have an intelligent and educated argument about your beliefs and the current status of this country, please feel free to look us up.

    Until then, you might try heading back to kindergarten for some remedial classes on A) English B) Grammar C) socialization

    Stop blaming this on war-mongering and oil. It's over, ok? Bush is gone. Get over it. Now YOU tools are in charge. Deal with it.

    Do you too have a shrine to Obama in your house?! Careful. It might be repossessed.
  • Michael R.
    Wow, now that was the high level intellectual debate I was expecting from you Dora.   Every time I see your name pop up now I expect the HEY Kool Aid guy to pop through my computer screen.  When you want an honest debate using facts as opposed to senseless rhetoric you let me know.
  • Dora
    feel better? 
    how's your truck?
  • Michael R.
    "name the sentence- tell me one word that i said that is wrong."

    My god Dora, I almost had to copy and paste entire posts but lets just keep it down to a hate filled few. 

    "neo-cons and bible-thumpers could not care less because you are going to be swept up in the rapture...  go wait by your space ships and get the hell out of government since you hate it so much. "

    "take your made-in-china- flag pins and phony patriotic selves away from my face. "

     "you all act like the idiot streaker who darts down the 50 yard line to draw attention to himself... however, upon closer inspection,  he has nothing ... really nothing.   ... well, maybe he drives a big truck to compensate for this."

    Does this strike you as the rants of a serious person? 
    "show me where you are so correct."
    My belief Dora is that we are in a time that dictates we have both compitance as well as confidence leading our country.  That is almost indesputable.  700 billion in TARP money, much of which we can hardly account for should not be followed by a now 900 billion dollar "stimulus" plan that has 25% stimulus in it at most and 75% built up of programs including building a recreational facility at a public golf course.  That shows neither compitance in the people who are proposing it or confidence in the system that would enact this debacle.

    tell me and the rest of the world why you were not selected as one of the chosen ones to guide us from the mess we now face.
      Over the course of the past 8 years and going long before that we have had people, primarily on the Left who have tried, sucessfully so now to instill mistrust in the American people about our leaders for their own political gain.  Some have insulted the troops saying they air raided villages and killed civilians in the night (Hamid Karzi I believe just said the same about an attack ordered under the current admin.)  Some have questioned our policies although they led to the unseating of a dictator in violation of 17 UN Resolutions, stopped the daily SAM attacks against US planes and ultimatly led to the nuclear disarmament of Libya.  Some simply wanted to blame a single man for every ill in America when it took an entire government, both Republican's and Democrats to, not just create, but continue to prop up failed institutions like Fannie and Freddie (I give you Chris Dodd and Barney Frank, both of which still sit in office by way of the same people who put in Obama)
    why were you not elected? 
    Why was I not elected as President?  I would like to think it is simply because I didn't run.  My party however was not elected into office because my party failed to run a conservative.  47% didn't vote for Obama, and how many more would have not simply voted against a man, but for a conservative nominee?  We will soon see.
    what input do you possess that is itching to get out?
    This is a great interview!  I would say rebuild confidence.  Obama is in, great, now he needs to act in a way that restores faith in our government, not continued fear and distrust that is seeing one gov after another world wide become more and more centrally controlled.  Obama's approval ratings have fallen over 20% in 3 weeks.  Now I do not care for political reasons but more for confidence reasons that sees a markets in a perpetual free fall.  He needs to stop campaigning, he won, now he needs to lead and lead in a way that will make people like myself and the other 47% of Americans believe that we will make it out of this.

    Dora, the last sentence about my only being here to complain seems to be nothing more than you projecting your own faults on others.  I am here on a Conservative Blog and have added my opinions on a topic or two.  Meanwhile you are here doing what?  Complaining, complaining complaining.  Is that helpful Dora?  Then go away!
  • Dora
    michael, what part of what i said suggests to you that i am mentally unstable?  name the sentence- tell me one word that i said that is wrong.
    go ahead.
    show me where you are so correct.
    tell me and the rest of the world why you were not selected as one of the chosen ones to guide us from the mess we now face.
    why were you not elected?
    what input do you possess that is itching to get out?
    perhaps it is like McCain's statement that he (and apparently only he) knows how to get Bin Ladin
    ...and he- only he knows "how to win wars".. wow... a man serving the people such as this and withholding such valuable information...  what's up with that?  why have we not heard how he plans to do these things?    oh yes... he lost .  and why again did he lose?  because he does not have a clue- and neither do you michael.  some come peanut... some complain.  i will place you in the complain, complain, complain group, michael.  you have no answers, only critique, refusal,  and negativity.   be helpful or go away.
  • davidwwalters
    MichaelR wonders:
    << Dora,  Does anyone take you seriously, here or anyplace?>>

    -Actually Michael, her concerns and righteous indignation are well place.  It's not <<the refuge of a feeble mind.>>as you bluster.   Since 1980 the country has come under the influence of those you now chose to call the "A principled minority" and their legacy has left us in the current mess.
    Continue to follow the lead of Mortimer(Limbaugh)......and try to ruin this once great nation so YOUR party can find their way back to the reins of power, by obstruction, obfuscation, and out right lies.
  • Michael R.
    Dora,
    Does anyone take you seriously, here or anyplace?  I agree, thousands of jobs are being lost and if Pelosi's numbers are to be believed 500,000,000 a month are being lost.  Sometimes I think that I and others should join in the same hate filled rhetoric as those on the left but that seems to be the first refuge of a feeble mind. 

    If you wish to convince anyone that your way is correct, try a dialogue that gives confidence in opinion, not questions to your mental stability.

    Now to the reasonable people,

    Keep the heat up on the Senate.  A principled minority coupled with a vocal backing of support from the people equal a majority and we are proving it today in Washington!  The conservatives are winning the day and the support for this plan is dwindling by the day.  Rushed legislation is a recipe for disaster and we the people are being heard so keep writing, keep calling and remind this President and this Congress exactly who they work for.
  • Dora
    a suggestion was made that any republican (or blue dog dem) that votes against the efforts currently being made to jump start this economy be granted none of the benefits for their state that would have come their way.  let these obstructionists explain that to their own constituency.   seems fair to me.
    we need to stop the bleeding- people, families are being put out in the streets...  thousands of jobs lost every single day.
    you neo-cons and bible-thumpers could not care less because you are going to be swept up in the rapture...  go wait by your space ships and get the hell out of government since you hate it so much.

    you messed up big time...  you put this country in a financial hole that will take years to fix... you pick and select what part of our constitution you will follow... and spent 8 years telling me how "unpatriotic" i was because i happen to believe in the rule of law.
    take your made-in-china- flag pins and phony patriotic selves away from my face.  YOU LOST.   Deal with it.  keep it up, you will wander the next 40 years as a minority party and it will be of no loss to anyone.
  • AP
    Way to "bring everyone together", Obama.  *sighs*
  • Idaho Spud
    The "Stimulus Package", contrary to those who rail against it would be a very good thing for the country.  It is full of PORK.  Muslims hate pork!
  • davidwwalters
    Jason(26)........
    <<
    Obama refuses to learn the lessons of the failures of FDR, ,...........>>
    -You didn't articulate exactly what FDR's failures were
    Were massive construction projects(Hoover Dam, TVA just to name a few.....)
    a failure?  The electricity generated by the TVA project had such a positive direct impact on our war effort in WW2 (The electricity generated was instrumental in aluminum production for aircraft and for the the Atomic Bomb project at Oak Ridge Tn.).   And it put people to work.  Failure?  Where did you get this revisionist history from?  FDR learned from failures......Herbert Hoover's failures!
  • Jason
    Obama refuses to learn the lessons of the failures of FDR, in fact, he intends to repeat those mistakes, but on a bigger scale.  We've only seen the beginning.  God help us.
    http://www.rightklik.net/
  • davidwwalters
    Jr Accountant.....
    <<I agree with you 100% - something must be done about China. But how can we do anything if we need them to prop up our floundering economy?>>
    -We have very little leverage.  In my 54 short years, i have noticed that our economy is almost devoid of any manufacturing.  What's up with that.....?  We need to find a way to actually produce stuff that will sell in a world economy, i wonder if it is even possible.
    Until that time, our economy will be beholden to the Chinese......not a good idea, it seems, but i can say exactly why.
  • Jr Accountant
    David,

    You are absolutely right, and China is a completely separate issue in and of itself (don't get me started). We should absolutely be concerned not only that they are our largest creditor but that Geithner and Company have the absolute audacity to say *they* are the ones manipulating their money. Obviously he hasn't looked at the Fed's balance sheet lately. http://jraccountant.blogspot.com/2009/01/hypocr...

    I have openly shown my distaste for the Bush administration - while I identify as a conservative, I would much rather look at each individual administration, cabinet member, Senator, etc for their political choices than say "Well he MUST be ok because he's on MY team!" - that's just ignorant. Republicans are just as capable of ruining America as Democrats, it's just that they have different ways of doing it.

    I agree with you 100% - something must be done about China. But how can we do anything if we need them to prop up our floundering economy?

    See! Liberals and Conservatives CAN agree. :)
  • davidwwalters
    Jr Accountant.....
    as most of the people on this blog know, i am a progressive liberal.  But i agree with you that this bill passed by the house is not exactly a well thought out plan for recovery.  Perhaps the Senate will hammer out a more intelligent bill that can help our nation recover.  I did notice that you did place some of the blame for our current crisis on the previous administration.  You have some credibility by your insight into our economic crisis...
    <<Second, dismantle the Federal Reserve so that actual relief from endless debt is possible.>>
    -But i see scant notice paid to the problem of the de-industrialization that has occurred in our nation over the past 40 years.  China owns so much of our "paper" because of an imbalance of trade.......we as a nation do not make anything any longer.  We have to have some wealth generated by something other than Wall Street schemes.
  • JackieM
    Bill--wow! thanks for the news.  i didn't hear that but can only hope it is defeated.  It is about time we do what is right for our country.  of course, it is interesting how a lot of democrats are still in the obama craze even though our country cannot afford this lame policy.  this past week i have noticed his cheap car salesman tactics hard at work.  i can't understand why more folks don't see through him!  i guess it will take a depression for those "slow" people to wake up!
  • Bill
    JackieM, as I was on the way to my son's to watch the Super Bowl with him, I heard on the news that the Republicans in the Senate think that the "porkulus" bill may be defeated.  Maybe enough senators on both sides of the aisle will put away partisanship and do what is right for our country.
  • Jr Accountant
    Jarrodm,

    I'm not sure what you mean about the money supply and interest rates (you said: "The FR by changing the amount of money that banks have to have on hand, change the interest rate, which in turn increase or decrease the available money supply. Currently the money supply is their with as low as interest rates are.")- trust me, I am intimately acquainted with the inner workings of the Federal Reserve. From what I see, we should be absolutely panicking over Fed manipulation of money supply. Why did Bernanke choose to suffocate M3 stats just before the housing bubble popped? Why has the money supply increased 106.52% in an 18 week period? We will not see deflation. We will bypass that entirely and go straight to hyperinflation, at which point I hope everyone is prepared because it will be a frightening ride. http://skepticaltexascpa.blogspot.com/2009/01/z...
    The Fed discount window and interest rate manipulation would be a reasonable indicator of overall economic health IF we were playing under "regular" rules of economics. In case you haven't noticed, we are not functioning in a healthy market by any standards. And the Fed is just pouring more funny money into the hole.


    Harrysmom,

    You're right. Republicans have to take responsibility for their own boneheaded moves. I am not trying to say that the last 8 years have been full of wonderful, brilliant moves on the part of that administration. But we are in the here and now. As I pointed out in an earlier comment, I am not a Bush Republican. We have that right, you know. I don't have to like every conservative just because their voter card says "Republican Party" - but right now, we have a larger, more subversive threat. Do you realize that your entire concept of happiness and freedom is being auctioned off via bailouts and pork-stuffed stimulus packages like this one? Your world is about to change profoundly if something is not done IMMEDIATELY to change this. We don't have time to yell at each other "Democrats did it!" "Republicans did it!" ad nauseum - instead, we need to unite on this one simple issue and give sound money a chance in America before it is too late for all of us.

    We can argue about abortion and gun control and gay marriage later. Right NOW, we have to expose every dirty, corrupt, disgusting connection between the private banking cartels and U.S. government - starting with the Federal Reserve. But that is just the beginning.

    You're more than welcome to continue nit-picking other issues but don't ask to borrow my gun when financial armageddon hits and you and your family are sleeping in a foreclosed home sharing a can of beans around a can of Sterno. If you'll even be able to afford that.
  • JackieM
    BILL--you said it!  however, after this past week it is evident more than before that pelosi and obama are not going to do what is right for this country.  Both sides are to blame and republicans are just now acting like true republicans with this stimulus!  maybe they have finally seen the light?  who knows!  now that the democrats are in charge and after all of their rhetoric, they are proving to be failures also!  we need true leadership and unfortunately this administration is not providing it.  But if you are a person who likes welfare, obama's team is certainly serving that up on a platter for all takers!
  • Bill
    We need a TEAM of candidates, both presidential and congressional, that are committed to less government, holding people accountable for their actions, protecting our homeland and borders, promotion of self-reliance, and reminding the American people that we have the greatest country in the history of the world, offering immeasurable opportunities for those willing to take advantage of them. Yes, those opportunities require effort. Some would call that effort “hard work”, but I think earnest work is a more fitting definition. If such a team of candidates would band together to run on a uniform platform as stated above, the support they would receive from the populace would be overwhelming.
  • JackieM
    yeah and when are democrats going to take responsibility for their failures.  there have been plenty of them.  they are certainly continuing to ensure this country is destroyed on their watch.  and what about all of their rhetoric to help this country?  ha!  obama and his buddy pelosi are ensuring pork is a big part of this doomed plan.  we need permanent jobs and obama's plan as it stands today ensures we won't get them.  of course, throwing millions of dollars towards a certain group that served in WWII will definitely help create jobs, huh?  what a joke!  someone in the news said that this past week was a big embarrassment for obama and the democrats because people were not buying that this pork-filled plan will work.  i happen to disagree with that statement.  with the exception of about ten, the democrats know no shame and aren't smart enough to understand people are not buying what they are selling.
  • harrysmom
    Interesting that you use Marxist rhetoric to describe the Hill Republicans ("Conservatives have once and for all learned that we are greater than the sum of our parts")    To use Rousseauvian rhetoric, I would argue that the Republicans now need to accept personal responsibility for their indiscretions of the past 8 years.
  • Pete
    Your site is great. I enjoy reading it!
  • JackieM
    obama and his mob have launched a political campaign against those who don't support the bill.  they are saying that those who don't vote for the bill will be responsible for our economy's demise.  this shows what kind of integrity this idiot has.  i just can't believe people are still for this guy.  he reached out across party lines and heard what republicans were saying and then blew them off.  anyone who wants this bill to pass as it is with all of the pork is crazy!  i guess waterparks in FL are a necessity.  ha!  we need permanent jobs in this country!  we need to help small businesses and the people with tax cuts!  it is easier to save jobs than create them.  there should not be anything in this bill that does not create jobs!  anything else is just pork!  today i heard obama say that it was ridiculous that the banks who received bailout money were laying people off and mismanaging our money!  what a joke!  he voted for the tarp and had ample opportunity to include restrictions and oversight.  but oh no, let's just complain about it now after the fact.  the banks are just like the folks in Washington.  They don't care about their responsibilities to the taxpayers.  i wrote on one of the UC blogs about this a while back and was against the bailout because of lack of oversite.  obama is continuing to show his stupidity!  everyone who voted for this bill is responsible to the taxpayers for its failure.  but you don't hear the democrats complaining about their big contribution to this mess!  what a big surprise.
  • Michael R.
    Watch Senator Ben Nelson saying many Republicans and Democrats have "similar views" about their concern over the stimulus bill.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9-kTttUELQ
  • Michael R.
    "what you all fail to understand entirely is that the people- overwhelmingly rejected your ideas and ideology and tactics...the result of this was the election of Obama to LEAD.  "

    First, 47% did vote against him.  Second, just because someone is elected to office doesn't mean that you  agree with his (or her) policies as aptly pointed out by Hillary Clinton in regards to G W in saying it was patriotic to question the leadership. 

    I still see a tremendous amount of hate on the left.  I see a growing amount of discontent on the right.  I argue neither.  I am asking people, take one piece of legislation, one policy initiative at a time and simply ask, is this right or wrong for the country.  You continue to argue the man all you like, I will continue to argue the position and we will see what the outcome is.

    I praised 11 democrats by name-urged others to right to them and say they (the dems) did the right thing and even spent the time to put in the handy links to their sites.  Is that wrong?  Is that a failed " tactic" that I should stop?  It would be much easier to put out meaningless jabs at the other side as I see the left doing constantly as it does nothing but solidify my beliefs that the more reasoned people do reside on the right side of the isle.

    Rise up above the pettiness of partisanship and have a meaningful discussion about the issues and it will not be Obama or another Republican who wins in the end, but rather you and I.
  • Dora
    the "ditto-heads" are aptly named.  and neo-cons talk about the democrats as "lemmings"....pfft.
    irrational limbaugh,  the new leader of the republican party would rather have the United States fully in the grips of a long and dark depression than to see Obama or any democrat have any measure of success in attempts to clean up untold piles of mess created by Ronnie's failed "trickle-down, de-regulate" philosophy and the illegal activities of king bush and company that sullied the face of this nation creating enemies and distrust around the world.

    what you all fail to understand entirely is that the people- overwhelmingly rejected your ideas and ideology and tactics...the result of this was the election of Obama to LEAD.   You don't want to play the game?  then get off the field.  you all act like the idiot streaker who darts down the 50 yard line to draw attention to himself... however, upon closer inspection,  he has nothing ... really nothing.   ... well, maybe he drives a big truck to compensate for this.
  • Michael R.
    "This fight is not over.  Call and email your Senators "
    "haha .. like that's giong to help. Get a life neocons..."
     
    What do you have against citizen participation?  I sure hope that your attitude is not shared by others on the left as this is all of our countries, not just yours.  It may not help, it may not sway a single senator, but it will not hurt and on the outside chance that we can have a day like yesterday where bipartisanship ruled the day and Republicans and Democrats alike stood tall against a bill that will do nothing but weaken our country, then I say it is a worthwhile effort.
    Maureen, do you really think that little jabs like you put on this site mean anything to anyone?  Do you believe that any of us read your hate and say wow, don't advocate a position to our lawmakers, that really makes sense?  Of course not so doing what you are doing isn't helping your cause and it is you who needs to get a life.
  • maureen
    "This fight is not over.  Call and email your Senators "

    haha .. like that's giong to help. Get a life neocons...
  • Michael R.
    This fight is not over.  Call and email your Senators and these in particular
    Sens. Susan Collins R-Maine
    Olympia Snowe R-Maine;
    Judd Gregg R-N.H.
    Lisa Murkowski R-Alaska
    Charles Grassley, R-Iowa.
    as they are all targets of a MoveOn.Org add pressuring them to vote for the stimulus.

    We need to stand up and support them, to tell them that we will stick behind them in the face of mounting pressure.  Tell them that uncompromising, unwavering conservatism is what the country needs now.
  • Michael R.
    A list of the 11 Democrats who put their country above their party.
    1. Bobby Bright - Alabama's second district
    2. Parker Griffith - Alabama's fifth district
    3. Allen Boyd - Florida's second district
    4. Walt Minnick - Idaho's first district
    5. Brad Ellsworth - Indiana's eighth district
    6. Frank Kratovil - Maryland's first district
    7. Collin Peterson - Minnesota's seventh district
    8. Gene Taylor - Mississippi's 4th district
    9. Heath Shuler - North Carolina's 11th district
    10.  Paul Kanjorski - Pennsylvania's 11th district
    11. Jim Cooper - Tennessee's fifth district

    And every single Republican, without exception!  Every one of these Congressmen deserve an email from all of us saying thank you for standing on principle.  Today was still a victory in that it gave many of us hope that their are still principled, reasonable Americans still in Congress.  Outnumbered for now, but not for long.
  • Michael R.
    "what is the plan to get us out of this economic crisis?."

    The first step for anyone bringing anything together or getting us out of this economic mess is to create some level of trust in, not just the financial systems, but everything again.  I don't trust our government anymore to do what I believe is best.  I don't trust our financial institutions any more to do whats right.  I don't trust our politicians anymore to do what is ethical.  And finally I don't trust the people to see through any of it.  Fix that and we will have a recovery.
  • ML Smith
    A "Stimulus Package?" Sorry, but it looks like a "Sedative Package." And who will need this sedative? Right, the same people that got us into this mes to begin with.

    Once again, we are being forced to accept another 800 billion dollars in toxic and illiquid debt. Dangerous? How about catastrophe? If the program falters, America's economic base crashes - it won't be a mild tail down entry into the Hudson River, that's for sure. We are staring down the barrel of economic disaster. America - a Third World Nation? Look at the package closely and try to calculate the consequences of failure. You won't be able to calculate that unless you have ice water running through your veins.

    Welcome to Obama World! And be ready to adjust your lifestyle accordingly...if you are lucky enough to have one when the fit hits the Shan. I'll leave that one for you to decipher - I don't have the stomach for it.

    Jarrod M - thank God someone knows the truth about the Federal Reserve, and that would be a good place to start if we're looking for a scapegoat. Privatized money systems don't fare to well historically. In our case, the history is in our face.

    This is a great time to start bitching - when we've spent the last 30 years being duped into thinking that America has money. If you count the number of $3 bills, this bill will take us down a worn and crumbling path that leads to ultimate and irreversible destruction.
  • Jarrodm
    So much for BO bringing the world together.
    http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090129/pl_afp/uspoliticstradedispute_20090129173404
  • Michael R.
    "what is the plan to get us out of this economic crisis? You are the expert, no?  Maybe we can start another unjust war for oil perhaps?

    Why do you liberals hate so much?  This is our country, all of ours and this stimulus bill is just as bad for you as it is for me.  Any stimulus that does not provide actual stimulus is the wasting of dollars that none of us can afford right now.  Forget you are a liberal and remember you are an American.
  • Jarrodm
    Any one that has studied economics at any level would know that the only solution to getting out of this mess, is to lower taxes across the board, lower interest rates, and for politicians to stop trying to make fiscal policies.

    Jr Accountant, I would think that you would know that the Federal Reserve first of all is a private company not a part of the government, and second they make monetary policy not fiscal policy.  The FR by changing the amount of money that banks have to have on hand, change the interest rate, which in turn increase or decrease the available money supply. Currently the money supply is their with as low as interest rates are. The problem is that there is no longer confidence in the economy because of the politician's and the news organizations have said over and over how bad it it.

    In America money is not backed by anything more then consumer confidence, when there is no confidence people are not going to spend, when people don't spend, companies have to get rid of employees. So until the confidence is fixed, and people start to see that they have money, and that they are going to continue to have money rather then it all being taken by the Government, we are going to continue down this road.
  • Jr Accountant
    Maureen,

    The Iraq war WAS NOT my war. You're big on the conservative stereotypes, aren't you? Next are you going to accuse me of jerking off over Bill O'Reilly? Because *gasp* I don't watch FOXNews. In case you didn't realize, "Urban" implies different from "all the rest of the conservatives" in a unique way so those sorts of small-minded, dumbed-down tactics of yours don't really fly. Nice try, though.

    What do I propose? First and foremost a tax cut. Promote small business. Look at Canada's plan: http://www.budget.gc.ca/2009/plan/bpc3e-eng.asp

    Now in fairness, they have their own problems up there. They're feeling the economic crunch full-force (having pumped 75% of their exports directly into our consumerist American vein), so of course there is some pork fattening their fiscal plans as well. But they're slightly closer to the mark than we are, in my opinion.

    Second, dismantle the Federal Reserve so that actual relief from endless debt is possible. Can YOU possibly explain the logic of debt (this bill) in exchange for debt (the funding that will be supplied by the Fed to cover this in Treasury conversions, if they can even pull that off) to cure the terminal economic illness brought on by debt?!

    Then again, I'm no expert.

    Anyway, next time you comment on one of my posts can you please refrain from using ignorant and antiquated stereotypical epithets? That'd be awesome.
  • maureen
    so Jr Accountant...what is the plan to get us out of this economic crisis? You are the expert, no?  Maybe we can start another unjust war for oil perhaps?
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