The Enemy Within

August 14th, 2009 Julie Spears

With the aggressive Obama White House pushing their Health Care Reform proposal on the American people, tensions on this hot-potato topic are elevated to levels we haven’t seen in this country for decades. With every passing sound bite, to every new town hall discussion, some elected official on the left is condemning citizens’ inherent right to voice opposition, or at the very least, to question a bill that these elected officials themselves are exempt from having to participate in.

Lets start with the pathetic House Speaker Nancy Pelosi herself. Have you ever seen a more disgusting, vile or ignorant excuse for a representative than this woman? This ingrate, who would give away our country to illegal immigrants, yet classify those who elected her, as “simply un-American”, because they have the nerve to question a bill that is being shoved down their throats, has no right representing a cockroach, let alone the fine people of her district. I guess those on the left would prefer if the American citizens just followed her and morons like her as though we were a bunch of lemmings, anxious to follow these geniuses trapped in idiots bodies, and hang on to every word they say as though it were gospel (oh, I guess that’s politically incorrect to mention that word!).

She, and others democrats having these town halls (e.g. Arlen Specter, D-Pa, et. al) have been downright indignant at the every-day Americans who have been showing up to have their voices heard, simply writing them off as part of an organized effort on the part of the right, thus dismissing the message they are sending to these elected officials. This is where the democrats are making a huge mistake. People do not like to be dismissed as though their opinions on life and death matters are of no consequence, or that they do not deserve to be taken seriously.

Moreover, the suggestion that these town halls are full of people which are part of an organized effort on the right, are laughable at best, and fabrications at worst. All you need to do is watch any one of the many reports to see which side is in fact, organized. Those who are truly grass roots, have home-made, rudimentary signs evoking their passions about this health care initiative, while those on the left, who are proponents of this effort, have professionally printed signs. So again, the efforts to get this agenda pushed through has lines that won’t be crossed.

Although not without precedent in our history, it has been many decades since the American people have been looked upon as enemies by the elected administration. Every day, some word comes from the Obama White House which suggests their mistrust of the people, and has resulted into nothing more than bullying, by forcing people into subservience by using scare tactics, which are sanctioned and espoused by this administration. From efforts to encourage neighbors to spy on each other by reporting anything “fishy” to the White House, to having people physically escorted out of town hall meetings because they are fearful for their lives and those of their families lives, shows the lengths the Obama White House will go to facilitate instituting their socialist agenda. The only thing fishy going on is emanating from within the closed door offices of the White House and Senate floor. This administration is rabid in it’s dislike of everyday

Americans,whose only crime is that of wanting to be an informed citizen. Seemingly, they will not rest until they have broken the spirit of every person in this country, and beat them into submission to go along with the systematic destruction of life as we know it.

Rating: 3.0/5 (29 votes cast)

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  • 2bluestarmom
    Obama promised transparency. Right.

    Before and after the election, Obama has made some astounding remarks. We need to follow up.

    And here are questions we NEED TO DEMAND, be answered by the White House and all those who serve them.

    - Why do we need a civilian force?

    - Who is posing a threat to us?

    - Who will this “force” be made up of?

    - Who is the real enemy?

    - Does the president know of a coming event? If not, who builds an army against an unrecognized enemy?

    - Why won’t the media get off their butts and look into these radicals in the White House? And into this civilian army?

    - Why does the FCC have a diversity “czar”?

    - Who is Mark Lloyd and how does he plan to “balance” the airwaves?

    - Will he bring back the Fairness Doctrine or worse?

    - Cass Sunstein once said he wants to balance the Internet; is that next?

    - Will broadcasters who leave the airwaves be allowed to go to satellite or Internet without government regulation?

    - Is there any place (that has a mass audience) where the government wont regulate free speech?

    - Why does it seem every member of the Obama advisory team hates capitalism, unless those companies (like G.E.) are in bed with the administration?

    If Lloyd has his way, stations who don’t comply to the governments definition of the “public interest” will have to pay a massive fine — that helps support public broadcasting:

    - What will be the definition of “public interest”?

    - Who defines “public interest”?

    - Why should it be balanced? Because it’s public airwaves? (Well, there are public roads that go by my house and I don’t count how many Republicans and Democrats are driving on them)

    - Who is “surrounding” the President in the White House?

    – Do any of the President’s advisers have criminal records?

    – Are the President’s advisers working to better the country or their own ideals?

    – Who are the anti-capitalists in Washington?

    – What roles do they have in crafting bills?

    – What was “STORM”? What happened to the founders, where are they now?

    – What qualifications must one have to be a Presidential adviser?

    – What is the difference between a community organizer and a community activist?

    – Do the czars have power?

    – Should a communist have the ear of the President of the United States?

    – What role did the Apollo Alliance play in crafting bills?

    – Does the President know the co-founder of the Weather Underground is a board member of the Apollo Alliance?

    – How many people in the administration are connected to the movement for a democratic society?

    – What role does George Soros play… CONSTITUTIONALLY?

    - Our unfunded liability for Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid is close to $100 trillion. Is there any way to pay for these programs without bankrupting America?

    - We are in so much debt, why spend more borrowed money on cap-and-trade and healthcare programs before we stop the flow of red-ink?

    - The stimulus package funneled billions of dollars to ACORN. How does giving billions of dollars to ACORN stimulate the economy?

    - If it was so important for congress to pass the stimulus bill before they even had time to read it why has only a fraction of the stimulus money been spent 6 months later?

    - Bush said he had to abandon free market principles in order to save them, how exactly does that work?

    - Why won’t members of Congress read the bills before they vote on them?

    - Why are citizens mocked and laughed at when they ask their congressman to read the bills before they vote on them?

    - Was the cash-for-clunkers program meant to save the earth or the economy? Did it accomplish either?

    - How did Van Jones, a self-proclaimed communist become a special advisor to the president?

    - Did President Obama know of Van Jones’ radical political beliefs when he named him special advisor?

    - The Apollo Alliance claimed credit for writing the stimulus bill—why was this group allowed to write any portion of this bill?

    - If politicians aren’t writing the bills and aren’t reading the bills, do they have any idea what these 1000 page plus bills actually impose on the American people?

    - If the ‘public option’ health care plan is so good why won’t politicians agree to have that as their plan?

    - If town hall meetings are intended for the politicians to learn what’s on our mind—why do they spend so much time talking instead of listening?

    - Politicians are refusing to attend town hall meetings complaining, without evidence, that they are scripted. Does that mean we shouldn’t come out and vote for you since every campaign stop, baby kiss and speech you give is scripted?

    - Why would you want to overwhelm the system?

    - Is using the economic crises to rush legislation through congress what Rahm Emanuel meant when he talked about “not letting a crises go to waste”?

    - What are the czars paid? What is the budget for their staffs/offices?
  • Dora
    Someone get the rubber room ready for 2blue- she's really over the top, off the rails, paranoid as hell and bat shit crazy.
    personally, I think 2blue poses as Michelle Bachman in her more "lucid moments" . we've all seen the results of that.
    damn, woman- get some mental help.
  • 2bluestarmom
    The trolls who come here, be forewarned. You won't like this.

    As a matter of fact, I know you won't like it. So don't go to the site.

    For my fellow Americans, this ones for you!

    Get a load of these high school kids singing (you hear them but do not see them). At the conclusion listen to the high notes on the trumpet, played by a high school kid! One of the fathers recorded it, added some graphic enhancements to the recording, and posted it on the web. Be prepared – it could send a few shivers up your spine.

    You may have to copy and paste this.
  • geniusconservative
    "Have you ever seen a more disgusting, vile or ignorant excuse for a representative than this woman? This ingrate, who would give away our country to illegal immigrants, yet classify those who elected her, as “simply un-American”, because they have the nerve to question a bill that is being shoved down their throats, has no right representing a cockroach, let alone the fine people of her district. "

    Nice to see that conservatives are keeping the discourse in our country at a respectable level. I love reading about people trashing other, more successful people, just because they don't agree. Why don't you put some actual content in your blog, and explain in a logical, direct manner why you are unsatisfied with Mrs. Pelosi's performance? Or would that be too hard? Too much research? Ok. Let's just call her a harpy for the 1000th time.
  • 2bluestarmom
    America, here is where we are heading.... I am not going to bother putting links in here. I don't need to. It's obvious where we are today.

    Totalitarianism (or totalitarian rule) is a political system where the state recognizes no limits to its authority and strives to regulate every aspect of public and private life wherever feasible[2]. Totalitarianism is generally characterized by the coincidence of authoritarianism (i.e., where ordinary citizens have no significant share in state decision-making) and ideology (i.e., a pervasive scheme of values promulgated by institutional means to direct the most significant aspects of public and private life)[3]. Totalitarian regimes or movements maintain themselves in political power by means of an official all-embracing ideology and propaganda disseminated through the state-controlled mass media, a single party that controls the state, personality cults, control over the economy, regulation and restriction of free discussion and criticism, the use of mass surveillance, and widespread use of state terrorism.
  • Dora
    "Totalitarian regimes or movements maintain themselves in political power by means of an official all-embracing ideology and propaganda disseminated through the state-controlled mass media, a single party that controls the state, personality cults, control over the economy, regulation and restriction of free discussion and criticism, the use of mass surveillance, and widespread use of state terrorism." said 2blue... goodness, she just described the BUSH administration.
    nice to see that you have finally seen the light.
  • 2bluestarmom
    The latest shocker is Jeff Jones. Jones was the co-founder of the violent radical terrorist group Weather Underground with Bill Ayers. Jones has much blood on his hands, and yet, he is part of the Apollo Group founded by Van Jones, no relation, a self proclaimed communist!

    The Apollo Group, under Jeff and Van Jones’ direction, basically wrote Barack Obama’s stimulus bill. You know, the one that absolutely no one in Congress read, but Obama swore that if it wasn’t passed immediately, the world would end. Then, after it passed, he took a three day vacation before signing it. So far, this stimulus has been a total disaster.

    Now, Van Jones is Obama’s "green jobs" Czar. He is also the man behind the failed boycott attempt on Glenn Beck’s Fox News show.

    For a truly frightening look at Jeff Jones and the ties of this violent domestic terrorist, and others to Barack Obama, please check out the video here.

    People like Jeff Jones, the violent domestic terrorist, and Van Jones, a self described radical communist, now Obama’s "green jobs" Czar, have infiltrated the so called environmental movement. We have said for years that the agenda of the greens has absolutely nothing to do with the environment, and is all about implementing communist control over America, and other free nations. It’s all about taking away personal liberty and freedom. These newest findings certainly enhance that observation.
  • Dora
    air-headed, panic-driven, information-challenged, paranoid 2blue somehow manages to avoid the facts with such ease - hate to break it to you, 2blue, but your blinders cannot remove the facts- they only allow you not to see them.

    regarding your statement calling the boycott a "a failed" attempt- note this:

    Adding to an increasing list of companies distancing themselves from Fox News Channel's Glenn Beck, ten new companies whose ads were recently seen during Beck's program-Applebee's, Bank of America, Bell & Howell, DirecTv, General Mills, Kraft, Regions Financial Corporation, SAM (Store and Move), Travelers Insurance and Vonage-have pledged to take steps to ensure that their ads don't run on Beck's show. Forty-six companies have now committed not to support Beck's show since launched its campaign three weeks ago after the Fox News Channel host called President Obama a "racist" who "has a deep-seated hatred for white people" during an appearance on Fox & Friends.

    Three of the latest defections-Travelers Insurance, Bell & Howell and DirecTv-join the list of advertisers who claim to have already placed Glenn Beck's program on a "do not air" list, but whose ads have been seen on Beck's program, apparently against their wishes.

    "We could not be happier with the results of our campaign so far," said James Rucker, Executive Director of "All 46 companies that have distanced themselves from Glenn Beck should be applauded for their stance."

    "We are still reaching out to companies whose ads we see during Beck's nightly program," Rucker continued. "Based on the fact that many of the recent ads on Beck's program are for gold coins and News Corp properties, it looks like Fox News Channel is struggling to place advertisements on Beck's show."
    so much for 2blue's ability to read.
    no surprise.
  • Dora
    46....46 national corporate sponsors with huge advertising budgets have agreed not to advertise with Glenn Beck or align themselves with his hate-speak. more to come.
  • aliy
    Call To Liberals Everywhere:

    Show me in the constitution (you know that pesky thing Obama swore to uphold in his oath) where the federal government gets the enumerated power to pass a bill like this? Show me where it says damn the people and congress can do whatever the hell they want.

    You are not going to be able too. There are a very specific list of enumerated powers for the federal government and the 10th amendment says anything not enumerated falls to the states and the people.

    In order to make health care a "right" given by the constitution you need to get 2/3rds of the vote of the people and ratify it. Then it WILL be a "right" and that part of your argument is over. We can't really fight back like it or not.

    But, even if you do that, the second amendment gives me the right to own a gun, it still doesn't give the government the power to lay and collect taxes to provide me with a remington!

    So, even if you DO make health care a right, it still won't give you the right to lay and collect taxes to provide it to anyone.
  • Matt
    While I agree with the spirit of you comment, I disagree with some of the content. No legislation, vote, majority or statute can create or destroy Rights. The phrase "Constitutional Rights" is a misnomer - there is no such thing. That statement implies Rights CREATED by the Constitution. This is a falsehood proven by the Constitutional Provision of "Unalienable Right to Life, Liberty and Property".

    Un-A-Lien-Able. Meaning that no man or Government can put a lien against your rights since they are yours by Nature and Nature's God.

    We have these rights because of one thing - Private Property. If I were still "allowed" to buy land with an Allodial Title (What we buy now is just Real Estate) then I would own the land outright with no ties. I would not pay property tax, be subject to Eminent Domain or any of the other statutory infringements Government can create. I could do whatever I want on that Land so long as I do not violate the unalienable rights of another Human.

    My Body, by the very fact I exist, is my Private Property. I can do what I please with it so long, again, as I do not violate another Human's Rights. I have the right to use any tool available to defend it, I can put anything I want into it and I can freely exchange the product of my body, my Labor, in a private contract with any other person at the terms we both agree on.

    These Rights do not come from the Constitution and cannot be created or destroyed by any Government or Majority. The only way I lose them is by giving them up voluntarily. This includes when the Government Thugs come to enforce their Unconstitutional Laws, I either defend my Rights or I hand them over. It's my choice.

    Dora, on the other hand, is of the mindset that Government exists to do the Most Good for the Most People - the individual be damned. That is the Benthamite mindset I refer to below. Bentham's ideas have infected this Country since the 1800's and it has been a battle that many American's were not even aware existed. It seems, now at least, many are awakening to the conflict between Blackstone and Bentham ideals - even if they're not aware of the history.

    Bentham's ideals, collectivism, unlimited Government power, the belief in the benevolence of Government - All are antithetical to the Constitution and abhorrent to the mind of any Free Person.
  • aliy
    I don't really agree with everything you said (the whole point of a 2/3rds vote is to pass something like the 2nd amendment which gives us the right to carry a weapon--ABSOLUTLY No reason they can't try to pass that with healthcare)

    However, I think that was a well thought out post Matt. I'm really impressed. And I must say I have not heard of Bentham vs. Blackstone, I call them Progressive vs. conservative. But you hit the nail on the head.

    You also said your body is your private property. And in saying that you almost make the argument that healthcare shouldn't be a government power because just by the inalienable right you do what you want with your body, you also should suffer the consequences of that action.

    Like, you load up with liquor, it should NOT be my job to provide you with a liver transplant. You eat nothing but super size fries and you get to over 1,000lbs, I should NOT have to pay for your tummy tuck. The problem with this bill is that they are going to either ration and tell those people they don't get their liver or tummy tuck OR they're going to give them to them at the rest of our expense. Either way is just unacceptable to me.

    Some people think this pipe dream that there's an unlimited supply of doctors and medicine there for the taking and no one will EVER have to pay. That's crap. People need to wake up and understand every penny the government pays is a penny they took from a tax payer. There is no magic medical well, there is no leprechan at the end of a rainbow handing Obama a pot of gold, it's tax payer money either way you slice it
  • Matt5012
    Well, that's exactly it. That's the keystone of Freedom and Personal Responsibility. It is none of the Government's business what I do with my body so long as I do not violate the Rights of another human.

    Tied into that Freedom is the Responsibility. Just like it is none of the Government's business what I do with my body, it is none of the Government's business what the consequences are. If I am Free to do as I wish then I am also Free to live with those consequences - that's the essence of Freedom. Unfortunately, most today prefer the tranquility of servitude to the animating contest of Liberty. Most, also, wouldn't know what Adams was talking about if he said that today.

    As far as the Rights part - the point is that passing an amendment does not grant any new Rights. None of the first 10 Amendments grant Rights. They acknowledge Rights that ALREADY exist.

    This was one of the major sticking points between the Federalists and the Anti-Federalists. The Anti's felt that a Bill of Rights, while not wholly inclusive, was necessary to enumerate certain key points that the Government could not touch to make sure that point was made as clear as possible; despite the fact that the Constitution did NOT expressly enumerate any powers in those areas.

    The Federalists replied that enumerating ANY Rights would lead to the belief that those were the ONLY Rights we as Americans held. Unfortunately, it seems they are correct. Most are not aware this argument is the reason the 9th Amendment exists.

    "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."

    Stating quite clearly that when the Government does something that was not EXPRESSLY enumerated as being under their authority, we do not have to show what Amendment they are violating. We have more Rights than could ever possibly be listed and they are not limited by what the first 8 say.

    When you make the argument that an amendment can GRANT new Rights, it also implicitly acknowledges that an Amendment can REMOVE other Rights. That's exactly, however, the antithesis of what the Constitution does.

    I feel that arguing over the details of the Health Care Plan, much like arguing over a Flat Tax, Fair Tax etc., misses the point. Until We The People start to once again ENFORCE the Constitution upon our Government, nothing will change.

    Arguing the details simply implies they do have the authority to do this but we want to make sure it's done the best way. Same, again, with Income Tax. Arguing for a better or more efficient system of a direct, unapportioned tax on labor is simply arguing for a better system of enslavement.

    This whole fight between Left vs. Right, Democrat vs. Republican is a joke to me. None of the Politicians care - it's a control mechanism. The only question is whether you are for Liberty or Control. Unfortunately, in extreme times such as these, the logical fallacy of either/or is valid. We are at the point of no return and if we continue to focus on LEFT GOOD - RIGHT BAD or vice versa, we'll be having that argument as we sink into the depths of Totalitarian Hell.

    Forgive me for the long posts - I tend to bring up a lot of tangential information I feel is necessary and relevant.
  • aliy
    Matt, I read EVERY word of what you said up there. I agree that we need to start forcing the constitution on the government. They ALL, right up to Obama, have to swear to uphold THAT document in their oaths and to sit back and realize the oath of office is nothing but a formality now is just sad.

    I heard a senator from NH yesterday on the radio. Someone called in and said "where does the government get the right to do this in the constitution" and her answer was "it doesn't give us the right to build roads either but you don't seem to mind THAT" I almost fell over. 1. That's a hostile, ignorant attitude to take with someone who is your constituent and 2. YES IT IS in there that they build roads!!! How can we let these people swear on a bible they are going to uphold something they've never read and don't believe in!!!???

    The liberals right now would like us to believe that centralized healthcare is a right of all. That is simply not true. They may argue that there is an open clause in the constitution that covers rights not enumerate there but that STILL doesn't give them the right to lay and collect taxes from ME to provide it to someone else. Just as the second amendment doesn't mean they can lay and collect taxes from Dora to give ME a gun. It's just simply NOT in there.

    And in the end, when it's all said and done the federal governments power and reach IS limited by the consitution and everything outside those specific enumerated things, it is left to the state and the people. (that would be US) So, even if they say it's a right to health care, (I still say if it's that important to them, get it ratified and no one can argue it's not) it's still not something the federal government has the power to provide.
  • Matt5012
    That was Carol Shea-Porter from New Hampshire. This is a precise example of the terrifying mindset that a great many of our "Representatives" have of the Constitution. It begs the question - have you read it?

    The Constitution authorizes the Federal Government to build post roads - roads for the mail service. And it most definitely covers other roads - she also brought up drug safety issues, airplanes and local police forces. She then says, and I quote, "So, the Constitution did not cover everything."

    Yes, it did. It covered all those topics she brought up and more. That's what EXPRESS ENUMERATION is and it's exactly the reason the 9th AND 10th Amendments exist - to drive that point home. That's precisely why the 9th is known as the "Non-Enumeration of Rights Clause". If it isn't specifically written out for the Feds, it's not within their scope as it is the purview of the States or a non-enumerated Right of the People.

    One of the things that gets missed is a Right enumerated in the Constitution does not give you anything. You do not have the Right to be given a Car, a House, Food OR Health Care. Enumerated and Non-Enumerated Rights, in the Constitution, are things that the Government CAN'T do. They are limitations on Government, not guarantees to the People. That's why I say that even a 2/3's vote for a Health Care Amendment cannot give the "Right" of Health Care to the people as it violates the Nature of the Constitution.

    To this woman, EVERYTHING is a Federal Government issue. To 99.9% (SWAG) of our Government, EVERYTHING is a Federal Issue.

    The biggest problem I see stems from the Blackstone vs. Benthamite schools that I discussed earlier and the people not even being aware that this battle rages.

    The Law, in America, was to operate under Strict Construction. This is a legal theory that dictates only what the law says, and precisely what it says, is involved. It is not up to the Courts to decide if it SHOULD apply to something else or not. Jeremy Bentham felt Government and the Law could be used to do the most good for the most people. They used the Law as a weapon, just as every other despotic regime ever has, against the People instead of the Law existing as a shield for the People. This is the problem you can witness in Britain right now - the Law is used for the people's "own good".

    Unfortunately, The Law being used as a weapon is where we are at today as well. I can show you countless examples of the Law being used to persecute people, prosecutor's taking minor scattered civil offenses combining them to invent a Law that didn't exist at the time of the crime (and technically still doesn't - this is what they're talking about when they talk of a Prosecutor's 'Novel Legal Theory') in direct opposition to the Constitutional prohibition on Ex Post Facto laws. The Exxon Valdez case is a prime example of this.

    This is why I say that Right vs. Left is a joke of an issue. Neither party gives a good damn about anything I'm talking about and everyone, even the most staunch Democrats or Republicans, know deep down it is the truth. Until The People once again start to cherish knowledge and understanding of what this Country is supposed to be, what the Law is supposed to be and what we can do when the Government oversteps its bounds then nothing will change. It will continue to be My Team vs. Your Team. Hell, most don't even know what Jury Nullification is when I bring it up.

    This Health Care Bill - it's not about Health Care, it's about Control. It's about expanding the ever increasing arm of the Federal Government into any and all areas available.

    I wish Dora would respond - ever since I corrected her flawed Constitutional Theory she hasn't replied.
  • 2bluestarmom
    Speaking of control...

    All week long Glenn has been exposing what is happening under cover in our country. Millions already suspect this but now we are seeing the truth. TV Tonight: Civilian National Security force? More tough questions on the series that is making the White House squirm. Why do we need a civilian national force as strong as the military? And who will be in it? That and more tonight on Glenn Beck at 5pm only on the Fox News Channel!
  • Matt5012
    First off, I don't trust Glenn Beck. You can use him for a source of information all you want but, like EVERY other media outlet whether pretending to be Left or Right, research and verify everything yourself. Glenn Beck on several occasions has made statements that I would deem traitorous and did an entire episode of flat out lies. Yes, I can provide proof if you'd like. He's no different than Hannity, Limbaugh, Franken or Matthews.

    Now, what I feel must be understood is that this situation we find ourselves in is not new. This is not those darn Democrats taking over. This is simply a continuation of the policies that have been in place for almost a century. Since Wilson, every President has been complicit in this illegitimate Government. From FDR to Nixon to Reagan to both Bush's and now Obama.

    The policies we are seeing are simple. They play right into the false Boom/Bust cycle created by the Federal Reserve. I'm not sure how everyone on here feels about Bush but, the truth is, he is no better than Obama.

    This Health Care Reform will be an enormous help to the top tier Insurance Companies. It will drive out the little guy and help consolidate the businesses by vertical integration.

    Isn't it curious that Bush just HAD to bailout AIG and keep them afloat and 8 months later we get legislation introduced that will be one of the greatest benefactors to them? How would you like the Government to be one of the sole suppliers of your product? Works great for the Military Industrial Complex.

    Bush set up the Police State and this whole "Security" apparatus that was built is being turned around on the American People. Did you read the Homeland Security Report about "Right Wing Extremism"? How people who mention the Constitution are terrorists? I'm sure you did.

    Do you realize that was written in 2007 under the Bush Administration?

    The Patriot Act was one of the most sweeping acts of Domestic Tyranny we've witnessed since the Federal Reserve Act of 1913, the National Firearms Act of 1934 or the Gun Control Act of 1968.

    We must get past this faulty Left/Right paradigm and understand that the Government as an entity is the enemy. Unless kept on a leash, it will continue to grow just like any other organism. It must be contained. WE are the one's that must do that. If a law is unjust and unconstitutional, we must FIGHT it. We must know that when they come to enforce it we are in the Lawful place to defend against that enforcement. People must realize that, as jurors, they have the DUTY to nullify any law which is repugnant to the Constitution.

    We have the Ballot Box (That has utterly failed), the Jury Box (Judges routinely lie to Juries) and the Cartridge Box (The last refuge of the Free Man).
  • 2bluestarmom
    I am disgusted with all of the politicians and never thought I would say that in a million years. Yes, I was duped as well!

    We need some answers. Everyone is complaining and no one is telling us how to get these traitors out of our way.

    Government, yes, it's corrupt. So how do we fix it?

    Therein lies the problem!

    This is like watching a horror movie. I don't like horror movies and don't pay to see them!

    So, what do we do?

    We do not have 4 more years. We are going to be so totally different structurally, as a nation, it's going to be just like the other countries where folks are being killed for demanding a recount!
  • 2bluestarmom
    The Compleat List of Czars by Nancy Matthis at American Daughter

    Bypassing the authority of Congress, Barack Obama rules through czars — the beginnings of dictatorship: 1.Herbert Allison Jr., bailout czar, [replaced Bush bailout czar Neel Kashkari, Assistant Secretary of the Treasury for Financial Stability confirmed by Senate]

    2.Alan Bersin, border czar

    3.Dennis Blair, intelligence czar [Director of National Intelligence, a Senate confirmed position]

    4.John Brennan, counterterrorism czar

    5.Carol Browner, energy czar

    6.Adolfo Carrion, urban affairs czar

    7.Ashton Carter, weapons czar [actually Under Secretary of Defense for Acquisition, Technology, and Logistics and so subject to Senate confirmation]

    8.Aneesh Chopra, technology czar

    9.Jeffrey Crowley, [openly gay white man] AIDS czar

    10.Cameron Davis, Great Lakes czar

    11.Nancy-Ann DeParle, health czar

    12.Earl Devaney, stimulus oversight czar

    13.Joshua DuBois, religion czar, aka God czar

    14.Arne Duncan, education czar

    15.Kenneth Feinberg, pay czar

    16.Daniel Fried, Guantanamo closure czar

    17.J. Scott Gration, Sudan czar

    18.Melissa Hathaway, [soon to be] cybersecurity czar

    19.David J. Hayes, water czar [a Deputy Interior Secretary and therefore subject to Senate oversight]

    20.Richard Holbrooke, Afghanistan-Pakistan (Af-Pak) czar

    21.John Holdren, science czar

    22.Kevin Jennings, safe schools czar [nominated to be Assistant Deputy Secretary of Education, Office of Safe and Drug Free Schools, a newly created post; openly gay founder of an organization dedicated to promoting pro-homosexual clubs and curricula in public schools]

    23.Van Jones, green jobs czar

    24.Gil Kerlikowske, drug czar

    25.Ron Kirk, trade czar

    26.Vivek Kundra, infotech czar [Shoplifted four shirts, worth $33.50 each, from J.C. Penney in 1996 (source)]

    27.Douglas Lute, war czar [retained from Bush administration, married to Jane Holl Lute, currently a Deputy Secretary of Homeland Security]

    28.George Mitchell, Mideast peace czar

    29.Ed Montgomery, car czar [replacing Steve Rattner, who stepped down amid controversy over his former firm's role in a possible kickback scandal]

    30.Lynn Rosenthal, domestic violence czar

    31.Dennis Ross, Mideast policy czar

    32.Gary Samore, weapons of mass destruction czar

    33.Todd Stern, climate change czar

    34.Cass Sunstein, regulatory czar

    35.Larry Summers, economic czar

    36.Michael Taylor, food czar

    37.Arturo Valenzuela, Latin-American czar (nominee) [although this post is referred to as a czar, he is nominatied to be Assistant Secretary of State for Western Hemisphere Affairs and so is subject to Senate confirmation]

    38.Paul Volcker, economic czar number two

    39.Elizabeth Warren, TARP czar [chair of the [Congressional Oversight Panel for the Trouble Assets Relief Program; note that Herb Allison is more frequently called the TARP czar]

    40.Jeffrey Zients, government performance czar [replaced original nominee Nancy Killefer who withdrew her name after issues with her personal income tax filings surfaced]

    Positions established but not yet filled…

    41.behavioral science czar

    42.copyright czar

    Positions being planned: 1.income redistribution czar czar

    3.consumer financial protection czar, aka mortgage czar (source) fairness czar

    5.student loan czar, to oversee a program of mandatory service in return for college money (source)

    6.voter list czar

    7.zoning czar

    Obama has moved swiftly to concentrate power in the White House, bypassing the review of our elected representatives in Congress in most of the posts listed above. Even though cabinet positions are part of the executive branch, the cabinet secretaries must be approved by Congress, they are funded by Congress, and they can be called before Congress to testify. Most of these czars, on the other hand, are appointed by Obama at his sole discretion, and are answerable only to him. If subpoenaed by Congress, they can claim executive privilege.

    Right after the election last November, Lowell Ponte of NewsMax published a tongue-in-cheek article that purported to be written eight years in the future, looking back on the Obama administration. Given the administration’s current initiatives, the ominous prognostication seems frighteningly likely:

    Looking back from 2016 on eight strange years of President Barack Obama’s administration, we see that it has been nothing like what idealists believed they were electing in 2008.

    The Obama years will be remembered in the Ministry of Truth’s official history as the era of 1,000 czars, the elitist commissars he gave the power to rule by fiat in every sector of America’s government, economy, and society…. And through their partisan power, Barack Obama became America’s permanent caesar.
  • 2bluestarmom
    So Matt5012, how do we stop this? That is what I would like to see on this web site. Instead of the bs from the diversions of idiots who come on here. We don't have alot of time. We will not make another election.

    This is a conservative web site. Unless these idiots want to jump in and help save the country, they need to butte out and go to political or huffington post and spin over there.

    We, WE, need to group together and put our heads together and formulate strategies on how to save our country and stop this destruction. While we can still make a difference before they silence us and free speech.

    Some of you may not agree with me but I take what I see happening from other sources and check it out. Fox news, Glenn Beck is revealing alot of what most of us already sensed. He is being smeared by radicals and some conservatives as being nuts.

    The fact of the matter is, he is researching and trying to warn us. I had already started putting the pieces of the puzzle together this past year and to know others out there, are sensing the same and finding the same proof of a government takeover, is not comforting, but tells us we need to ACT!

    I have made a few predictions on this site. I have not been wrong yet.

    We will soon be seeing martial law implemented under the guise of "health care crisis" or another fabricated reason to do this.

    They are dismantling our country and our constitution.
  • Matt5012
    Like I say below - we have three ways to fight back.

    1) The Ballot Box
    2) The Jury Box
    3) The Cartridge Box

    We can vote them out, sure. Hasn't worked worth a damn so far but we can keep trying. However, the Federal Reserve still stands and controls our currency and every bit of our economy. Voting does not effect them at all. Support H.R. 1207 - it's the first step to getting rid of that vile Unconstitutional Private Corporation that has this Country by the Short and Curly's.

    Jury Nullification is one of our strongest and least understood strengths as Free Men. Don't send another of your fellow Americans into their system by convicting them of a B.S. Malum Prohibita crap law they decided to pass.

    Armed Revolution is something that sounds great and really gets your pulse going but it is not something to take lightly. It is our Right and our Duty, pursuant to our Founding Fathers, to throw off any Government who no longer holds true to its responsibility to govern for NO purpose other than ensuring you and my Rights to Life, Liberty and Property. It is far easier said than done, though.

    However, that's only one sense of what the 2nd Amendment exists for. You have the right to defend yourself in the most immediate sense against the Jack Booted Thugs when they come to enforce an unjust law. Cops need to realize they took the same oath the President did and when they enforce Unconstitutional Laws they are to be held as accountable as anyone else. Oathkeepers is a hell of an organization made up of Soldiers and Police who pledge to uphold their OATH and refuse to enforce Unconstitution Police State Laws. It was started under Bush and continues under Obama.

    One of our greatest tools, however, is still the 1st Amendment. We can talk and write as we see fit. This is our strength. If we can get past the Left/Right paradigm, make people get past this 'Your Team vs. My Team" mentality and get everyone TOGETHER in deciding whether they stand for Liberty or Control, we can get things moving.

    Historically, 5% of a population is critical mass for an idea. That's 15,000,000 people. That is one hell of an army if things go that way.
  • 2bluestarmom
    Yeah, I saw your 3 choices. Albeit I like the third best!

    Seriously, I will fight for my country and millions of others will as well.

    I am a Marines daughter! Proud of it!

    I don't want bloodshed but I don't want the alternative which is a totalitarian country, either!

    I want my children and grandchildren to have a chance at life, like I did. semper fi!
  • Matt5012
    I honestly believe that H.R. 1207 is one of the greatest weapons we've seen come along in decades. If we audit the Federal Reserve, we find out all the deals that have been made in regard to our currency. We find out all the negotiations and agreements with Foreign Countries and other Central Banks that directly influence domestic legislation.

    The information we can gain from an audit of the Federal Reserve will hopefully send the populace into such an outrage, we have a chance to end it.

    The Federal Reserve controls this Government. It is what allows this endless spending to take place. It is why money is directly stolen from our paychecks because our Government borrows OUR money from this Private Corporation and repays portions of the interest ONLY (Not even touching the principal) with our Income Taxes.

    This institution is what funds the wars, the surveillance, the welfare state that subjugates and enslaves millions - it truly is the root of the evil in this Country. Kill it and we return to actually having debates about what the Government should or shouldn't do instead of just blowing hot air that makes no difference.

    There are over 300 cosponsors on this legislation right now. Ron Paul has introduced it numerous times and it has finally caught on. People are realizing left and right that Greenspan was right - The Federal Reserve is above the law.

    The other method of 1st Amendment action I take and try to push everyone else into is on the State level. Our States only submit to this Federal Domination because they're bribed to. The Federal Government uses highway funds and other bribe money to get States into compliance.

    The Speed Limit? Feds said they'd cut off Highway Funds unless the State Legislatures went along with it. Same with the b.s. drug war, taxes, drinking age and on and on and on.

    Texas is making good headway as is Tennessee, Wyoming, Michigan, Arizona and several others. We are coming to a head on the State level and this is where another great power of ours exists.

    Meanwhile, prepare your home. Beans, Bullets and Bullion. You need 'em all. Submission to oppression comes from those who were not prepared and can not survive on their own.

    There are several organizations working on Citizen's Grand Juries right now. In locales where the Sheriff is not a slave to the Feds, it is very promising as the Sheriff has more authority than anyone in the County. The President of the United States cannot order your Sheriff to do anything. He can sure bribe him though. City Councils, State Government hearings, State Capital - the same thing that happened at the Townhalls needs to be happening to our State Officials.

    The fact of the matter is simple. It's not astroturf, or fake protests or 'Right Wing Indignation about a Black President' or any other such nonsense.

    The truth is that people are very, very pissed off.

    None of this is as satisfying as pulling a Linda Thompson and saying grab your gun, let's go! But it is what's necessary and likely to have an effect. If you can just get your State to back up Liberty and State Sovereignty then you have a mighty weapon against the Feds.
  • 2bluestarmom
    Ron Paul is awesome. More folks should listen to what he is saying. I didn't. Now I do.
  • aliy
    I like Paul. I don't really agree with everything he says but there are times he has the right idea. I espeically like that he's a real constitution supporter. He believes in what it's there for. He believes in what's in it.
  • aliy
    And the one thing I CAN give Obama credit for is that he's been able to do something NO other conservative has been able to do for YEARS. Unite conservatives and republicans against a common enemy. So, for that, I thank him.
  • Dora
    US Constitution, Amendment IX, Amedment VI cl.2
    Ratified by 11 states on December 15, 1791. First US federal law.

    The first paragraph of our first federal law mentions six goals towards which this first (and all future laws?) are directed. These five goals are the reasons we have a government: (1) to establish Justice, (2) insure domestic tranquility, (3) provide for the common defense, (4) promote the general Welfare and (5) secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity.

    Amendment IX reads (in its entirety): The enumeration in Constitution of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others [other rights] retained by the people.

    In other words the Amendments to the Constitution were explicitly NOT intended to delineate the complete set of rights that the American people were to have - not even back then in 1791. And the Congress thought it important to state this explicitly.

    In fact, the first draft of the US Constitution which Thomas Jefferson received from James Madison (Jefferson was in Europe on state business) did not have any amendments (no "Bill of Rights"). Jefferson wrote Madison that a short list such as the first ten Jefferson drafted ought to be included and Madison responded that specifying them was unnecessary since it was obvious that the people retain such rights - and that the only need was to restrict the power of the state. Jefferson replied yes it is obvious to us now, but it might not be so for future generations, so let's include at least this short basic list.

    Amendment VI, cl.2 reads: This Constitution . . . and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby.

    Aliy- As revolting as it is, I realize that you are a "I've got mine- get your own!" kind of gal. fortunately the LAWS that we in the United States follow make people like you verifiable nut cases, and horribly uneducated, leading you to your selfish attitude as well as ill-founded and illegal.
    Along with other documents, the United Nations Declaration of Human Rights,
    signed by all nations seeking UN membership in 1948, including the US, contains the following article: "Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control."
  • aliy
    So, let me get this straight, you can't find the right to health care in OUR constitution so you're quoting the UN? Really? Like, the group that did NOTHING to support our request to Ireland this week that they NOT release a terrorist? Like, the group that fails to sanction Korea or Iran when we ask them too? Apparently they think everyone in the world has these rights ACCEPT US. I really wouldn't use them as a source on this one.

    And the whole idea that there are rights Jefferson and our founding fathers didn't think about is a given, it's why there's a constitutional process to get them ratified. You put it to a vote, and get 2/3 of the vote, you get your amendment. Why not just put this to a vote, make the exact language "the people have a RIGHT to health care". and see if it passes?

    But for all the quoting you did, you still can not show me where OUR constitution says:
    1. It's a right to health care
    2. the federal government has the right to lay and collect taxes to provide for that right
    3. Or where they would get the right to lay and collect taxes to provide me with a GUN, after all that IS a right.

    One last question (because I've had liberals make this argument to me) do you really believe that in Article IX where it says "the general welfare" do you think that means they must provide food stamps? And I honestly mean that Dora, do you believe when they say "general welfare" is that welfare like it's known today, a massive handout program?

    I'm not a I've got mine-you get yours kind of person I believe in helping people who are down. I don't believe in helping people who won't help themselves. I have no problem with prrograms that help people down on their luck, medicare, medicaid I've already said if the liberals would just up the maximum income to qualify for medicaid, I'd be willing to insure those 9 million or so that would help.

    So, you can protray me like a cold hearted bitch all you want. I've given more to charity and volunteer over 200 hours a year I've made my peace with God and the christian spirit of helping the needy, I just don't think Obama has the right to tell me I owe MORE to charity. the whole point is you give what you can and Obama's whole take is you give what HE Demands and if it damns you, so be it. THAT is what I have a problem with.
  • Matt
    I even went and pulled up two of our Founding Fathers for you who were from diametrically opposed sides to help you understand this.

    Thomas Jefferson - "If the treaty power is unlimited, then we don't have a Constitution. Surely the President and the Senate cannot do by treaty what the whole government is interdicted from doing in any way."

    Alexander Hamilton concurred: "a treaty cannot be made which alters the Constitution of the country or which infringes any express exceptions to the power of the Constitution of the United States."

    The only other contradiction I can imagine you bringing up is this section of the Treaty Clause - "any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding..."

    Hopefully I'm wrong and you properly understand this but, just in case, I'll explain it for you. This section is discussing States being affected by Treaties. This is saying that any thing in the (NOT 'This') Constitution or Laws of any State....I'll make it clearer for you - Anything in the States' Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding. Meaning State Constitutions - not THIS Constitution i.e. Constitution of the United States.

    The Treaty Power does not give the Government any new powers to surpass anything else expressly given in the whole of the Constitution.

    Because the U.N. Charter was ratified as a Treaty and because it makes the U.S. subservient to the U.N. - it is expressly Unconstitutional. So is our involvement in the World Court, the I.M.F. and all the other Globalist institutions.

    Healthcare is not a Right nor is it a Power EXPRESSLY granted to the Government in its founding charter. THAT is why this so called "Reform" cannot be allowed.

    All the other arguments coming out of the b.s. Left/Right illusion are pedantic and redundant.
  • Matt
    I'm afraid you're simply not educated enough to understand the truth regarding Treaties and the Constitution while you deride another person.

    You see, you're missing a very key part of the Treaty Clause - "Under the Authority of the United States". Perhaps you simply don't understand or haven't ever been taught what that's saying.

    You see, the Constitution is a document that was created by a group of States that enumerated certain specific powers to a Central Government that would be more adequate in handling them than the individual States. Around 30 enumerated powers, depending on how you count. This document provides no clause, statement or article that allows expansion beyond those specific powers.

    The line "Under the Authority of the United States" means that Treaties can be entered into and they become Law but that does not mean, in any way shape or form, that ANY Treaty becomes Law. Only Treaties that deal with powers SPECIFICALLY ENUMERATED to the Government are viable and to be considered Law. To word it another way, only areas that the Federal Government has the Authority to operate in can it sign Treaties in regards to.

    No different than legislation that is "repugnant to the Constitution" (Marbury v. Madison) being Null and Void - Treaties must follow the same restraints.

    Do you really think the President would swear an Oath to uphold and defend the Constitution when he could just sign any old treaty he wants? Do you really have that much of a lack of faith in the Constitution and the Founders to think that kind of loophole would be left open?

    By the way - that U.N. Declaration (Along with ALL our business with the U.N.) - COMPLETELY Unconstitutional.

    You've obviously confused restrictions on Government Power with Enumerated Rights of the People. If you need me to explain exactly what rights are I will - they cannot be created by legislation, statute or judicial decree. Our Constitution was based on Common Law, born of Natural Law, and explained quite well by Blackstone. You've obviously bought into the Benthamite School of Government which, unfortunately for you, is aberrant to our Constitution.

    Have a nice day.

    Oh, and please cite your copy and pasted first section - if not, I'll do it for you.
  • proxima
    Unemployment=Uninsured=Healthcare Reform
    Lets do the math here. Employers and private insurance companies provide the majority healthcare coverage for working Americans. As unemployment rises, the number of uninsured rises dramatically at a rate or 2-3 times per person unemployed. This is due to families often being covered by one working person.
    The official unemployment rate in America is now 9.4%, unofficially the rate is probably 17%-18%. Unemployment rates are calculated by persons currently drawing unemployment benefits. Once those benefits are exhausted the claimnant drops off the roles of the 'unemployed" and the unemployment rate is decreased by one person. Of course, that person may not have found a job, but he/she is not counted as unemployed.
    Does anyone think that it's mere coincidence that Obama, Pelosi, Reid and far left seldom talk about unemployment rates while at the same time pushing the center piece of national heathcare of a public option?
    Every day as thousands lose their jobs and concurrently healthcare, the Obama administration is running a multi-million dollar campaign on the "all in, no-one out" healthcare platform. The stimulus money is nowhere to be found in respect to job creation. The shovel ready projects are far and few between. There is no concerted effort to create jobs or create an atmosphere through tax breaks to business to create jobs. Could Obama actually be contributing to the unemployment rate to create even more constituents for his programs? That of the freshly unemployed and uninsured? If one loses their job and healthcare insurance maybe a "public option" sounds like a good idea. Like Rahm Emmanuel once said " you don't want to waste a good crisis"

    Contact Obama and the other Dems trying to push Socialist program and question them about unemployment and what they are trying to do ABOUT THAT.

    This comment brought to you from the American Nationalist Party
  • 2bluestarmom
    Every American in the U.S. that is aware of Nerobamas true agenda, needs to fly their flags, upside down to show our country is in distress!

    We are at the intersection of the crossroads and about to have a massive collision from all directions.

    We do not have 4 years, 3, 2, 1. One more stroke of his pen, we are destroyed. There is absolutely no proof anything he has done is working.

    All of the hundreds of billions of dollars he is spending like a rock star on a shopping spree, has been futile. Where's the results and where's the money?

    None of the government entities are working. They are all failing. And they want more?!

    No! Enough! We want our money back! We are not paying for another wasteful, special interest program, anymore!
  • Name
    Destroyed????? That's a bit rich isn't it?
    you go girl.
  • Dora
    Kerry didn't acknowledge the "swift boaters" because he felt the assertions so absurd that no one -with even a teaspoon of facts and a working brain-would bother with the ridiculous statements being made about him. Millions and millions of dollars were spent (in many cases, ILLEGALLY through 527's) to defeat Kerry. If you tell a lie often enough , ignorant, lazy people, they will believe it. All of the "swift boater" claims have proven false- yet ignorant lazy people here would rather believe in the lie.

    And so it is here with regards to health care...the exact same ignorance. Outrageous claims have been constantly debunked-there is NOTHING and ANY proposed legislation providing health insurance for illegal aliens, there is no "plug-pulling" on granny or any other person, there is no government takeover of healthcare, and no abortions allowed to be funded...NONE... they Hyde ammendment is still in place regardless of your stupidity... yet- for reasons that remain unclear to me, ignorant people like Aliy, Bubbles, 2blue, DS, and Jackie prefer to believe "their trusted sources" rather than the actual facts.

    There is no changing them. These people live in the shadows of their own fears. They were willing to give away their privacy and personal freedoms under George W. Bush because of their fears and now beat their chest about Obama with dilusions ... That HE's taking away their freedoms... changing America as we have known it?


    Engage yourself in some facts.

    I know that's a lot to ask of people who read only their "trusted sources" and refuse to venture out beyond the limits of their own backyard. Bubbles and Jackie here have admitted that they refuse to listen to anything that might engage in anything that remotely resembles another's view or read anything that would represent the actual words said. Aliy, Jackie, Bubbles, and 2blue have babbled over the validity of Michelle Bachman and Sarah Palin's words that were so provably false it should diminish anyone's belief in either of them.... yet they continue to hold these two women as some sort of model of intelligence and leadership.

    There is a difference between "acting stupidly" and being stupid.

    These people cannot grasp the difference.

    There is a difference between saying "not allowing other voices to be heard is un-American" and calling people un-American.

    These people here cannot grasp the difference.

    There will come a day when people will point at them and say it was people like these that nearly killed health care reform- but, despite their ignorance and just like the fight for social security, medicare, women's right to vote, blacks right to vote, and civil rights legislation, the right thing was done.
  • aliy
    Let me just say, I actually hated Bush enough to look into Kerry when he was running because I was at that point "anyone is better than Bush" and we weren't going to have a conservative option that year so I looked VERY closly at Kerry.

    What I found was that he would tell you one thing but if you went to his website and clicked on an issue, he would have something else. He pandered to whomever he was talking to at the time.

    The people here who were suppose to be working for Kerry were using all the volunteers to smear local politicans they were planning to run against the next year, and they would ONLY do a voter registraion if the people signed Democrat, they actually threw the other forms AWAY. It was completely disheartening.

    And as usual, you're going to say "that wasn't Kerry it was other people" but in the end, they got invites to his private voting watch party sat next to him on a big old couch and watched him loose, so, like Obama with the SEIU, Kerry didn't come out and condeem what they were doing. He rewarded it.

    I actually didn't vote from president AT ALL that year (or I wrote in the guy from 24 because THAT is my idea of a president!) But the point is that I just didn't have very much faith in what Kerry said. Swift boat or no swift boat, he was on a different side of an issue everyday and never really had any class doing it.
  • Mike
    WOW.....everything you are claiming are the same things the former administration did. It's funny how the rhetoric has flip flopped.
    My question is simple.......What government intervention with regard to Health Care are the Republican FOR?
  • aliy
    I can answer that. And this is not really a "republican" thing so much as a conservative thing since I'm not a republican (I think they are a bunch of lying theives too)

    1. Fix the medicare fraud problem
    2. Adjust tort reform
    3. Raise the limit for medicaid (if you wanted to do that for the 9 or so million who can't afford insurance and don't qualify now, great but to insure 46 million when part of them already qualify and just won't fill out the paperwork or make over $75,000 a year, or aren't even citizens, that's a no no. But you want to talk about the 9 million or so who really DO need help, we're all for it.)
    4. Leave the decisions up to the states and votes from the people. That is how the constitution is set up, there are simple enumerated federal powers and all else is left to the states, as soon as a state gets it right, it will be up to the other states to adopt it, or not.

    It boils down to this, address a problem and fix it, don't put into place a monster government agency that's bound to mess it up along the way. Example 1: today it was announced on CNN that car dealerships are NOT getting any rebate checks for cash for clunkers yet and a lot of them don't expect that money to ever materialize. Example 2: Medicare has wound up costing 9 times what the CBO estimated it would when they passed it. And with this bill, 9 times the amount is just unfathomable for us to have to shoulder in taxes. Example 3: Social security (according to the SS administrations report YESTERDAY) said they will be broke in 2 years.

    I feel there is plenty of evidence to support my claim that the government will find a way to mess up healthcare if they try to create possibly the biggest government agency in the world. they have a track record and we have no reason to believe they're going to get a bigger bill right when they've mess up all the small ones.
  • armyvet808
    Great article, Julie. I completely agree with you. I am profoundly sick of these idiots in Washington. They have all forgotten who got every damn one of them in office. The arrogance astounds me. Did you see the last townhall with Barney "Rubble" Franks? He thinks he is so much smarter than all of us. His condescending tone is disrespectful to us all. The "MORON" award should go to Nancy Pelosi, while the "DUFUS" award should definitely go to Robert Gibbs! Can't wait for 2010. We need to get these clowns out of office before the damage they are causing becomes catastrophic.
  • usofa
    Using a swastika to make any point is unacceptable.
    And that goes for doing the same when ranting against Bush.
    Making Hitler comparisons to Obama or any president for that matter
    is unacceptable behavior and needs to be stopped. It is a slap in the face
    of humanity and shows very poor judgment and a high level of insensitivity
    and a supreme lack of knowledge of history. Anyone comparing anything or anybody
    except for BRUTAL dictators or regimes to Nazis is the living embodiment of
    the problems we face in this country and around the world. These are truly savage times
    as long as there are people out there who don't understand this.
  • Matt
    Just out of curiosity - you're aware that EVERY President since 1968 has been enforcing Nazi Law - right?
  • aliy
    But usofa I have read about nazi Germany, I have read about Hitler and how he came to power and what he wanted. I look at the people who read Mein Kampf and said "How could you NOT know what this guy was planning?" After all, he laid it out in black and white for everyone to read.

    Well, Obama has given plenty of speeches before he was president that tell us he's for total take over and control of industries like healthcare.(which is something Hitler planned) He opened a "rat on your friends" website, (Hitler had one of those too, but it was a phone line) he's got groups (maybe not him so much but he has NOT come out and condemed their actions) that are going to town hall meeting to kick in peoples faces that don't agree with his view. (can you say brownshirts?)

    There are a lot of ways you could make the argument he's following Hitlers blueprint to world domination. About the only thing they did different is Hitler beefed UP military where Obama is systematicly dismanteling it and letting union thugs enforce the agenda.

    I understand it's a very deplorable thing to compare someone too Hitler but Obama seems to be going down that path and it's NOT unnoticable. He's made too many of the same moves. Like Hitler started out as a community organizer, he told the community exactly what he wanted to do. Then, to get elected, told the general population something else!! Once he got elected he changed everything he followed EXACTLY what he laid out in Mein Kempf.

    Like Obama saying in 2003 he wants a single payer, laid out the exact plan to get there, "take back the white house, take back the house" his plan from there was to do something to put the private insurance companies and employer based programs out of business. He laid it all out for us a couple years ago, now that he's in office you expect me to believe that he's suddenly NOT on board with his own plan he's been hatching for 8 years?!

    It's ignorance like that that got Germany in trouble. People reading Mein Kempf and going "no, there' s no WAY he actually MEANS that!" they ignored the problem and hoped it went away. We see how well THAT worked for them. When you see parallels to something that turned out to be one of the most evil things ever, I think you have a right and responsibility to stand up and say "hey, this is how Germany got in trouble 70 some odd years ago."

    Yes, there are some right wingers who found a name that pisses off liberals (the same way they do to us with "teabagger" and other insults) and are using it to draw out as much hate and anger as they can. But there are a lot of us who just think it's too close to the evil of the 1930's to ignore and someone needs to actually look at history and tell me there are no parallels. You can't. What Hitler did once he got into office was evil but to get there, Obama has pretty much followed his blueprint, the brownshits (union thugs), the rat on your friends site, they all echo Germany in the 1930's and you can't tell me they don't.
  • usofa
    Wow. I don't know what to say. You seem scared, and believe me, I truly respect that. But I'd like to know in which speeches specifically that Obama called for complete takeover of industries on the level of healthcare. Which groups under the watchful eye of Obama have gone down to town halls to kick people in the face? What is the "rat on your friends" website? What is the domain name? I'm sorry, but it's not enough to draw some vague parallels to Adolf Hitler.
    By that same token, we could accuse many powerful people, left and right, of the same things. How can we know what "path" the man is going down in the first six months? All presidents need their country behind them for the first year or two, especially during a crisis. What if we hadn't rallied behind Bush after September 11th? What would that have said to the world? Everyone knows we stood undivided during that terrible time. Well, this is a horrible crisis that Obama did not invent. He inherited it and we must support him. I know it's a tough pill to swallow when our side doesn't win. But we have to show the world
    that America is #1 by standing along our president as he does what he was elected to do. We at least owe him a chance. And we need to quit whining like little babies about what "might" happen down the road. No one knows for sure. I'm sorry, but nobody on the left or right is gonna let this nation turn into Nazi Germany! Give me a break! Too many of us are armed and only too happy to fight on the side of goodness and compassion. Please stop this nonsense. Or at least give it a rest so the country can come together and get some damn business done! If you love the U.S. of A. you will stop comparing Obama to Hitler. And by the way, are you saying he wants to ethnically cleanse this country and bake people in ovens? Rape? Perform experiments? Tear apart families? Because that is what Hitler ended up doing and that is what you are accusing OUR president of wanting to do. You would have to be insane to think that. Please let me end by quoting Voltaire: "I may not agree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."
  • aliy

    The above is a speech he gave in 2003 to the AFI-CFO about his support in single payer where he says "take back the white house, take back the house" and talks about getting rid of employer based healthcare all together.

    That is video of SEIU thugs beating the face in of Kenneth Gladney, (a black conservative) for carrying a flag that read "don't tread on me" according to the law suit filed on Mr. Gladney's behalf, these men walked up to him in their purple SEIU shits, asked him why a black man wouldn't support Obama then proceeded to kick his face in with boots.

    The "rat on your friends" site was [email protected] and they took it down last week. They never really gave us a reason but it was a website they asked you to "report anything you hear that's "fishy" about healthcare" I KNOW a bunch of us reported ourselves and our own dissent. So, either we bogged down the system turning ourselves in or they finally realized that's a totally facist move and took it down of their own free will.

    The way you know what path a man is going down in the first 6 months (at least according to history for thousands of years) is look at where he TOLD you he was going.

    If I tell you when I becoeme president I'm going to outlaw everything but vanilla ice cream are you really going to be surprised when I do it? I TOLD you I was going to do it.

    I don't know where people get this idea that anything the guy said before taking the oath of office is null and void. It's NOT. Just because you swore to uphold the consittution doesn't mean you've changed your plan of what a "more perfect union" actually IS. It's just a fact, taking that oath doesn't change who you are, where your morale center lies or what you belive is right.

    As far as not letting this turn into Nazi Germany maybe some people (and you included because you specifically asked if I mean he's going to bake people in ovens) are misunderstanding that. We're not saying he's going to open conservative concentration camps (though we joke about it) we're not saying we're going to have death chambers, or that conservatives are going to have to wear a pinned on sign that identifies them. These are the things we're worried about:

    1. An almighty leader who no one can question (which Hitler was, you disagreed with him he sent brownshirts after you, and although Obama might not be sending out his "purple shirts" he's certainly NOT condeeming there actions)
    2. Loss of our individual rights to choose things (like, oh, health care plans, what I eat, when I exercize, things that are laid out in this bill)
    3. A re-distribution of wealth until everyone is equally miserable (you show me 1 country that's socialist that's PROSPEROUS maybe I'll give a little on this, but from what I see, they are all equally miserable!)
    4. More big government programs we're all going to be stuck in if or not we like or want them. And our governments inability to control them without fraud, corruption and mistakes! (I have VERY little faith in them to run a program properly)
    5. Privacy completely destroyed (you know if this bill passes you have to give them acces to your checking acocunt so they can "collect premiums and co-pays") it's in the bill. you have to give them access to your money for them collect what they need to float this bill.

    This is all stuff that happens in a socialist society and using the example of Nazi Germany is a way to get people to open their eyes. If I said "Obama's going to rule this country like it's Cypress!!" Most people won't associate that with socialism or that it's even bad. You use an example like Nazi Germany, people get the point.

    This is not nonsense. I've just given you plenty of examples that are more than verifiable to support what I say. I will NOT stop comparing him to Hitler until he stops trying to push an agenda that takes away another layer of my rights everyday (like Hitler did to Germany) you want to get some damn business done. Why don't you and other liberals try this medical system out use YOUR taxes, and YOU use it. If you and your party aren't broke or dead in 5 years, maybe the rest of us will consider it.
  • usofa
    Still nonsense. In the video not once does he mention getting rid of employer-based healthcare! Obviously one would need to take the white house, etc in order to enact what he's referring to. It simply doesn't frighten me the way it frightens some of you. Sorry. Obama never personally sent those thugs to beat up ANYONE. He can't control what misguided people might do in his name anymore than McCain could control that stupid girl that drew that 'B' on her own face and pretended she was attacked. And this was obviously an isolated incident. I also see nothing wrong with setting up an email to fight anything they deem misinformation re: healthcare. If you don't think he has a "master plan" to put certain groups of people in concentration camp, then the argument is over.

    You are just hellbent on thwarting the president and are in no way prepared to help this country as I see it. I'm sorry to disagree, but I don't sense the emergency. If you don't sense that things are lopsided in this country, i.e., too many people starve and are in debt while a much smaller percentage prospers, then you are horribly out of touch. Can you afford insurance? Do you make over $250,000 a year? If so, congratulations! I, on the otherhand, have never been able to afford healthcare. I had a horrible accident where I nearly lost my right hand, and am still in debt over it! I have no qualms with giving the private insurers some healthy competition! If you are one of the ones who want to take Medicare and Social Security away on grounds of socialism, then you are too far gone to talk to. Some socialist programs work! SOME!! Thats right...things don't have to be black and white all the time. The American landscape changes in order to form a "more perfect union". This is what our forefathers envisioned. And they owned slaves! And now a black man is president. This is the way America works. It's called a vote. it's called an election. There will be no holocaust. Our side lost this election, and that is HEALTHY, my friend. Now suck it up and do something productive: help this nation heal and those less fortunate than us get some help. Some community organizers are okay. You seriously need to take a chill pill and sit this one out. Our man lost, and our last man messed up bad. Very bad. And now we must work with the other side to clean up the mess. Period.

    And by the way, I'm not a liberal. And by the way, if you were more informed, you'd know that some of us CAN try the system Obama is proposing out, while you can refuse it. WHY? Because anyone who wants to keep their current insurer under his plan will be able to. Don't believe that? Then you are very cynical. And wrong. Because it simply isn't true. Look it up. In this great union, everybody votes on big ideas and the most popular ones win. Some turn out great. Some don't. And you do not have to resort to an extreme example like Nazi germany to make your shaky point. There is somewhere that exists between staying quiet and shouting some crazy extreme nonsense. There are more applicable examples you can use to state your case than obvious, sensationalistic ones. No one will take you seriously in the normal world if you prattle on about Hitler. Ears will close and eyes will avert their gaze. Trust me, you need a better playbook. We will lose '10 and '12 just as we lost '06 and '08 with crazy talk like that! It only rallies a fringe base and preaches to the converted. Instead, come up with a better plan and show something that resembles compassion for the downtrodden and the 'least' of us. Some programs work. And yes, some are socialist in nature. Obama is very conservative on many issues. That is why many prominent conservatives shifted their positions and voted for him.

    We only have one life to live, and worrying about your taxes should not be your priority when they MUST be raised because of what OUR guys did to this economy. We need a change in strategy, and yours ain't it. Again, I value your opinion, yet strongly disagree with it.


  • aliy
    1, I've said Obama may not have sent them but he was REAL quick to say a police officer doing his job was "stupid" but when it comes to thugs kicking in someone's face for HIS cause, he's oddly silent. He SHOULD condemn the actions of these men, he hasn't done that yet.

    2. It's a totally facist policy to ask someone to report another person for expressing their freedom of speech. End of story there.

    3. You again are twisting my words I said we DON'T think he's going to make concentration camps. Stop playing semantics or I will just have to consider you too stupid to follow a simple sentence.

    4. Where are you getting the idea that I"M taking away medicare and SS, it's those programs THEMSELVES that are saying they're going to be broke in two years.

    5."they owned slaves and now a black man is president" how did I KNOW the race card was going to come up.

    You know what, I'm completely DONE with this conversation I'm not even reading any more of your response. I'm sick to DEATH of you people throwing down the race card like it trumps logic! You want to think just because he's black we all need to fall in line with him, YOU follow him to hell, I'm going down kicking and screaming, I don't care WHAT color he is, HE IS WRONG.

    The constitution is very clear and you're too stupid to read it and follow plain Engligh. The enumerated powers of the federal government are very clear and everything this jack ass is trying to do to our country is over stepping his bounds, black, white, blue, yellow, I don't care WHAT color, NO WHERE can you show me where it's written he has the power to do any of this.

    You want to call me names, go ahead, you want to throw down the race card, go ahead. Fact still remains you CAN NOT show me where he gets this almighty power it is NOT in the constitution.
  • usofa
    My, we're getting feisty! This all began because you insist on clinging to the Hiltler/Nazi comparisons. The conversation is over when you do that. Come up with something new and I implore YOU to read the constitution. You clearly haven't. What almighty power? what are you carrying on about? I did not accuse you of taking away Medicare or Social Security! Just read what I said! I said take them away if you are so scared of socialism! Because that's what they are! keep watching Glenn Beck and parroting his misguided propaganda! Those of us who know better look up the facts.

    And look up the word "fascist" while you are at it, genius.
  • aliy
    Facist according to Websters:

    1. 1 often capitalized a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition

    2. 2 a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control - early instances of army fascism and brutality

    That is the last response you're going to get from me I have better things to do with my time than argue with and idiot.
  • usofa

    You pulled out ONE of many definitions and pasted it. You showed me! I knew a little healthy debate could only go so far with people like you. No, folks like you get flustered after a while and the cuckoo-rage goes to your little head and you spew and sputter like an old engine overheating. Sad. That is why there is no real conversations with people like you. No, not with the mighty internet at your disposal where you get all your truth-y factoids. Spare me. Those of us you lived without the internet most of our lives rely upon something called common sense (which according to Abe Lincoln, was no so "common". Speaking of "common", no common and concise definition exists for fascism and historians and political scientists disagree on what should be in any concise definition of the word.

    Clearly people like you bend the word to meet your needs in any argument. Most people agree that fascism is when corporations run the government (which is close to what we endure now with all the people in power in the back pocket of lobbysists). When social programs are aided by the government, this is not fascism.

    Call me an idiot all you like, but most people agree with me, not you.

    Not once in all your ravings have you exerted a sliver of compassion for the people who needs these programs, wou know the ones you steal people's square footage and take that job you have picking artichokes?

    Join the real planet where problems are not just on paper and everything doesn't end up in "end of world" scenarios like some biblical disaster film. Join the human race.
  • Matt5012
    Close - The only true Fascism we've seen was from Italy which created it the damn ideology to begin with.

    It's best described as the MELDING of Corporate and Government interests.

    It's absolutely what we've seen since 1913 in every area. This Healthcare Reform Bill will be more of the same. Can you imagine how great it would be for the Government to have an unending contract to be the sole supplier of YOUR product? It's worked wonderfully for the Military/Industrial Complex so far.

    The Cap and Trade Bill was the same thing. TRADE in that bill meant that every exchange, trade etc. would go through, oh - wait for it - GOLDMAN SACHS. They would make untold fortunes off that legislation. I can tell you how many of our key Treasury heads have ties with Goldman. I can also tell you how close they are to the Federal Reserve.

    Left/Right - it doesn't matter. In the last century no President has done anything to ACTUALLY reverse the course of this Country. Every one of them have just dressed up Big Government differently. One side says it's for equality, the other side says Security.

    It's all B.S. The paradigm is broken.
  • aliy
    Oh, you really showed me, now run back to Acorn and collect your check.
  • usofa
    Stale. It's so funny how convinced you are that i'm on the acorn payroll, as if that would even be a bad thing! oooh, acorn! an evil conspiracy to be sure!

    and yes, i DID show you, because you have nothing for me, proving my overall point, which is that your whole raison d'etre is a cul de sac, at the risk of sounding even more liberal to you because i used french words.

    you should really explore your pent-up rage and what it may do to your body and mind (not to mention soul). if you aren't careful, you may need serious healthcare with all the cancerous thoughts clouding your system.

    i actually feel something resembling sympathy for you and those like you. be well. i'll hang with the hopeful, positive crowd and leave you to the emaciated coyotes scrounging for "liberal" bones.
  • aliy
    You see the town hall meetings and you see how many people are against this bill and you see how many buses Acorn can fill with a hand out to support it (yes, they are paying people show up in favor of the bill) It's overwhelming how many normal Jane citizens are informed and are against this bill.

    The latest polls show 53% of the country is against this bill. You want to get something done, give us something we can work with. Instead of giving the entire country an enema and starting over with a grand plan that's had no practical application and the CBO says will certainly break the bank for this country. Start with the issues that plague us. Can't you pick and issue and deal with it?! Why does this administraion have to bite off more than they can chew, and expect the rest of us to suck it up?!

    Why do you have to change my whole insurance plan because some poor guy can't afford it?! Why do you need to take more taxes from me so someone who doesn't pay taxes at all can have free healthcare?!

    Again, it's the plan of a socialist. This healthcare reform will take from those who have and give to those who don't have thus making us equally miserable. You can't take more money out of me and expect me to keep my standard of living. If you take money and I have to leave my 2,000 SF house and move into a 1200 sf house, at least a guy in a 500sf house can now get a 1200 so we're all equally average and equally miserable, socialist.

    Don't get me wrong. You speak of compassion. If all you liberals were to go adopt a poor person, we could insure them ALL in no time. You go find soemone poor and YOU buy them insurance. If I choose to do so also, I will. But don't come to me and say "get out of our way so we can get something done" because the thing you're trying to get done right now is to take from me and give to someone else without you being affected in the middle and thus making me miserable right?
  • usofa
    I'm sorry, but that sounds like a very small, unintelligent argument. Is this how you think the world works? Talk about extremes! Obama is talking about giving people a CHOICE between a public and private option, and for you it's either keep things exactly as they are (read: desperate and intolerable) or adopt a "poor person"? What are poor people, some kind of inconvenience? I thought we were Americans? I was behind Bush because he campaigned on "compassionate conservatism" and that was total bulls**t. You sound very weak, scared and unamerican when you panic that we are gonna turn "socialist". Is anyone you love on Medicare? Social Security? Then they are friggin' socalists! Wow, 53%! That leave half who want it! Do you know how many people that is? It's millions, my friend. The bank was broken by our last man, Bush. And that is a fact. He screwed us worse than any president in history, and you know it.
  • aliy
    A small unintelligent argument. Leave my heath care alone is an unintelligent argument? he's not fostering choice, he's making a committe to over see the entire industry which will dictate to MY private insurer what they can and can't do. Did you NOT read the bill?

    I was trying to be very civil with you but to call me weak, scared and unamerican, how DARE YOU. Apparenly you're just another one of those nutbag liberals who Acorn is paying to come on here and insult people.

    And here we go again with "it's all bush's fault" if your argument is BUSH broke insurance you're stupider than I thought. Go home now because you've just lost my interest.
  • usofa
    I actually said your ARGUMENT sounds weak, unintelligent and unamerican. Commitees must be made to fix this unmitigated disaster which the last administration left us in. If you can't recognize that the insurance industry as we know it needs to be regulated, you are deluded. What are you, and insurance salesman? I'm not a "nutbag liberal". that is such an easy-out, sucker thing to say when you're all flustered and can't handle the truth. I'm actually conservative. Fascism is the current state of corporations running amok as they are. Look up the word. I wouldn't even know how to get in touch with ACORN, but there's your old stand-by! OOH, everyone is working for ACORN! Go kiss Limbaugh's ass a little more. All your cockamamie theories have been DEBUNKED! You either want things to stay the same, have a better plan than Obama, or should shut the hell up.

    If you don;t think the rampant deregulation of the past decade or so (under Clinton AND Bush) screwed us all, you are living on another planet.

    I still defend to the death you're right to say anything on your mind. Amen.
  • Dora
    Aliy attends a town hall meeting... watch her in action!!
  • usofa
    Figures. Just out for attention like every bonkers Larouchie.
    It's even more pathetic than I thought. Now the entire country
    knows you're a revolting loser.
  • ds1
    Well, it appears that obama and the dems have finally agreed to drop the public option. But DON"T believe that option B isn't already on it's way!! See this article in The Weekly Standard and stay on your toes Patriots!! We need to kill this as well. KEEP tthe Tea Parties going Patriots! They would love for us to feel like we accomplished our goals and to stop partying. But that ain't going to happen!!
  • dowels

    please check out this site:

    pnhp stands for "physicians for a national health plan".

    this site will show you the myths and facts about single-payer national health insurance. There are a lot of myths that the public is constantly exposed to, so PLEASE check it out.

    I have tried to post this a couple of times and believe it might be getting deleted. I'm sorry if I am wrong about that.
  • ds1
    Nice try, but there are MANY more physicians and nurse who are opposed to nationalized healthcare than those who are for it. I don't have the time or the desire to research all of these "supposed" doctors on this website, but I suspect they are all obama supporters who contributed greatly to his campaign. Most, if not all union folks are supporting him because he is paying him back for their votes! If you are open minded about this debate, read what Martin Feldstein has to say about it below. He has many more credentials than any of your "so-called" doctors, so I trust him a lot more.


    ObamaCare Is All About Rationing

    Overspending is far preferable to artificially limiting the availability of new procedures and technologies

    Although administration officials are eager to deny it, rationing health care is central to President Barack Obama's health plan. The Obama strategy is to reduce health costs by rationing the services that we and future generations of patients will receive.

    The White House Council of Economic Advisers issued a report in June explaining the Obama administration' s goal of reducing projected health spending by 30% over the next two decades. That reduction would be achieved by eliminating "high cost, low-value treatments," by "implementing a set of performance measures that all providers would adopt," and by "directly targeting individual providers . . . (and other) high-end outliers."

    The president has emphasized the importance of limiting services to "health care that works." To identify such care, he provided more than $1 billion in the fiscal stimulus package to jump-start Comparative Effectiveness Research (CER) and to finance a federal CER advisory council to implement that idea. That could morph over time into a cost-control mechanism of the sort proposed by former Sen. Tom Daschle, Mr. Obama's original choice for White House health czar. Comparative effectiveness could become the vehicle for deciding whether each method of treatment provides enough of an improvement in health care to justify its cost.

    In the British national health service, a government agency approves only those expensive treatments that add at least one Quality Adjusted Life Year (QALY) per £30,000 (about $49,685) of additional health-care spending. If a treatment costs more per QALY, the health service will not pay for it. The existence of such a program in the United States would not only deny lifesaving care but would also cast a pall over medical researchers who would fear that government experts might reject their discoveries as "too expensive."

    One reason the Obama administration is prepared to use rationing to limit health care is to rein in the government's exploding health-care budget. Government now pays for nearly half of all health care in the U.S., primarily through the Medicare and Medicaid programs. The White House predicts that the aging of the population and the current trend in health-care spending per beneficiary would cause government outlays for Medicare and Medicaid to rise to 15% of GDP by 2040 from 6% now. Paying those bills without raising taxes would require cutting other existing social spending programs and shelving the administration' s plans for new government transfers and spending programs.

    The rising cost of medical treatments would not be such a large burden on future budgets if the government reduced its share in the financing of health services. Raising the existing Medicare and Medicaid deductibles and coinsurance would slow the growth of these programs without resorting to rationing. Physicians and their patients would continue to decide which tests and other services they believe are worth the cost.

    There is, of course, no reason why limiting outlays on Medicare and Medicaid requires cutting health services for the rest of the population. The idea that they must be cut in parallel is just an example of misplaced medical egalitarianism.

    But budget considerations aside, health-economics experts agree that private health spending is too high because our tax rules lead to the wrong kind of insurance. Under existing law, employer payments for health insurance are deductible by the employer but are not included in the taxable income of the employee. While an extra $100 paid to someone who earns $45,000 a year will provide only about $60 of after-tax spendable cash, the employer could instead use that $100 to pay $100 of health-insurance premiums for that same individual. It is therefore not surprising that employers and employees have opted for very generous health insurance with very low copayment rates.

    Since a typical 20% copayment rate means that an extra dollar of health services costs the patient only 20 cents at the time of care, patients and their doctors opt for excessive tests and other inappropriately expensive forms of care. The evidence on health-care demand implies that the current tax rules raise private health-care spending by as much as 35%.

    The best solution to this problem of private overconsumption of health services would be to eliminate the tax rule that is causing the excessive insurance and the resulting rise in health spending. Alternatively, Congress could strengthen the incentives in the existing law for health savings accounts with high insurance copayments. Either way, the result would be more cost-conscious behavior that would lower health-care spending.

    But unlike reductions in care achieved by government rationing, individuals with different preferences about health and about risk could buy the care that best suits their preferences. While we all want better health, the different choices that people make about such things as smoking, weight and exercise show that there are substantial differences in the priority that different people attach to health.

    Although there has been some talk in Congress about limiting the current health-insurance exclusion, the administration has not supported the idea. The unions are particularly vehement in their opposition to any reduction in the tax subsidy for health insurance, since they regard their ability to negotiate comprehensive health insurance for their members as a major part of their raison d'être.

    If changing the tax rule that leads to excessive health insurance is not going to happen, the relevant political choice is between government rationing and continued high levels of health-care spending. Rationing is bad policy. It forces individuals with different preferences to accept the same care. It also imposes an arbitrary cap on the future growth of spending instead of letting it evolve in response to changes in technology, tastes and income. In my judgment, rationing would be much worse than excessive care.

    Those who worry about too much health care cite the Congressional Budget Office's prediction that health-care spending could rise to 30% of GDP in 2035 from 16% now. But during that 25-year period, GDP will rise to about $24 trillion from $14 trillion, implying that the GDP not spent on health will rise to $17 billion in 2035 from $12 billion now. So even if nothing else comes along to slow the growth of health spending during the next 25 years, there would still be a nearly 50% rise in income to spend on other things.

    Like virtually every economist I know, I believe the right approach to limiting health spending is by reforming the tax rules. But if that is not going to happen, let's not destroy the high quality of the best of American health care by government rationing and misplaced egalitarianism.

    Mr. Feldstein, chairman of the Council of Economic Advisers under President Ronald Reagan, is a professor at Harvard and a member of The Wall Street Journal's board of contributors.
  • aliy
    Dowels, I don't think a lot of those facts are correct. Except maybe the one where they ask "won't this raise my taxes?" and the answer is "certainly" That's about the only thing that's really accurate in there.

    Right now we don't have the money to pay for this, the CBO is saying it's going to force close to 50 million people OFF their private insurance.

    There is also a provision in the plan that if you switch jobs, you are signed up for the national plan and like it or not that's where you stay.

    There's also a benefits committee which is going to determine what care you get and what you don't.
  • dowels
    "I don't think a lot of those facts are correct."

    Why? You need to back up that opinion with some facts/evidence.

    As far as taxes (from :

    The income tax would take the place of all current insurance premiums, co-pays, deductibles, and other out-of-pocket payments. For the vast majority of people, a 2% income tax is less than what they now pay for insurance premiums and out-of-pocket payments such as co-pays and deductibles, particularly if a family member has a serious illness.(end)

    You realize that this is a group of over 17,000 physicians, med students, and health professionals? Some of them dedicate their whole lives to creating a strong single-payer plan, and they do it without the end-goal of PROFIT. They do it because they truly care about the American people, and the moral, mental, and physical strength of this country. On the opposite end we have the never ending theater performance that carries on as I type. The politicians and lobbyists are fighting amongst each other to determine which medical industries and which specific companies will reap the profits from any new plan. In reality, the best plan for me and you, for the average person, is rarely discussed. Look at the campaign contributions, specifically from the medical industry, to our beloved republican and democratic politicians:

    Look at the connections (just a start) between the medical industry and the media:

    Connect the dots.
  • aliy
    I AM a med student and trust me no one at MY school is saying anything like that. I go to Florida Hospital College, I have friends at UCF Medical school too who are not saying anything like that. None of MY doctors (including a chiropractor I know) is saying any of that.

    There is no way in Gods name this is going to be a 2% tax increase. I don't care what your doctors group says, try going to the CBO report which says this is going to break us.

    You are correct that Washington and the lobbiest are gracing some companies with the right to keep their profit. I don't really know where this hate for capitalism came from. If you had a great idea or found a cure for cancer, would you just give it away? If you say yes, you're lying. Everyone is out to make money, if it be to put food on the table or to provide your children with a private school education. Money buys things and unless you're a scam artist gypsy you should appreciate your ability in this country to decide what you're worth and work for it.

    I know some people say like a bank president makes too much money but when you break what he makes down by how many people he's got under him and how much liability is on his shoulders, it's chump change. I want to know who makes the rule that says you can only make money if Obama and Pelosi like you. They are attacking industries they just don't like.

    They can't start dictating what doctors make would you like it if the government came in and said you're going to do the same work for 1/2 the money? I can tell you right now, it's what they've already done to me and my industry and I don't like it at all. It's why I'm in med school (trying to find something to fall back on)
  • aliy
    I'm a real estate appraiser and a couple months ago they passed a law that brokers and appraisers are not allowed to have direct contact. There were some brokers pressuring appraisers for values. Well, they SAID there would be a hotline you could call if you were still getting pressure. Never happened.

    But they passed the law and between me and all my clients is now a management company, they are unlicensed, they are unregulated, they are telling us appraisers if we ever want to see an appraisal again, we're going to work for $125 (we use to make $300) and they are charging Brokers and home owners up to $500 for an appraisal.

    I'm getting undue pressure from these unregulated management companies everyday and there's no one to report them too because the government didn't follow through with the hotline they promised us.

    So, let's recap, the GOVERNMENT didn't follow through on their end, I have NO recourse against management companies and I"m doing MORE work (because along with the new law were new requirements) for less than 1/2 the money.

    So, you're going to have to forgive me if I just don't trust the government to do what they said they were going too with anything.

    SS will be broke in two years, I'm sorry if I just don't trust the government to follow through effectivly with anything. But I don't.

    There is so much stuf people don't consider. How about this, about a year ago a guy who worked for the state of CT pumped gas, went into the store to pay for it, came out and his lap top had been stolen. HUNDREDS of state employees lost personal information. The state acutally had to buy everyone one of those life lock programs for 10 years to protect their identities!!! What happens when that happens with our health records? Obama is not going to open his wallet, he's going to get it from taxes and once you give 100's of people on public option lifelock, all the rest of them are going to want it too. What do you do then?

    I personally would rather be safe than sorry but I guess our government could care less about being safe with MY info. They might not care, but I do.
  • aliy
    Let us also look at the law of unintended consequences:

    In Amsterdam there are 2 kinds of malpractice. Accidential and negligence. If the doctor is negligent and someone dies they determine how much that person would make at their current job, until the age of retirement and that is all your family is getting, like it or not. If you're a stay at home mom and you die. you had no earning potential, therefore, the government deems your life worth NOTHING.

    Accidential is just that, an accident, you can't go after the doctor for that. All the doctors here are still going to be open to a major malpractice suit! You can still go after a doctor for doing something like operating on the wrong leg for MILLIONS. Torts are still going to plauge the industry.

    What these doctors are all saying by supporting this is "we're totally cool with working twice as hard with the same responsibility and debt and taking 1/2 the pay." In Amsterdam they have no medical school bills, no malpractice insurance. No overhead it's all government clinics!!! That is NOT what's going to happen here, the doctors are going to have the same expenses but you're cutting their pay in 1/2.

    I know some liberals who had to take a pay cut this past year to stay employeed are saying "yeah, I had to take a cut, so do the doctors!" But keep in mind, there's also provisions in this bill that protect the profit margin of pharmacutical companies, Obama promising not to seek cheaper drugs in Canada or beg down the price of drugs!! Huffington Post caught the inhouse memo this weekend.

    It's been estimated that in order to pay for this (the lofty idea that the rich dude would take a hit for the little guy) has been debunked. The CBO said you would have to take 100% of all the income from anyone making over $75,000 a year for 10 years and you STILL wouldn't be paying for this thing.

    This year alone, you had to work until August 12 JUST to satisfy your tax burden to the country. And last year it was in June and a couple years before that it was in May. Every year more and more debt translates into more and more YOU AND I owe. There is no special Obama bank. The bank is you and me and our hard erned money. Try not to forget that when you look at all the lofty things they think they can do with no money in the bank.
  • aliy
    But, How could Obama turn on all those supporters!? Why would he do that to them?! All those people saying they want the single payer, all those people saying Canada is smarter than us, all those people who stuck up for his plan......Why, Why DS, why would he turn on his own people! (like we ACTUALLY expected him to be a stand up for what you believe kind of guy!--

    I hope they feel as used and abused as he's treating them. I really, really do.
  • anamericanidiot
    Nancy Pelosi referred to herself as "a fan of disruptors," in 2006 but today defines protesters as "un-American." You are correct in saying she is "disgusting, [and] vile." I feel she is the single greatest threat to our Democracy today. Her strong arm tactics and arrogant demeanor should even offend the hard left liberals of her district, but they seem unfazed.

    Back to Obama... Enemies lists, snitch lines and busing in SEIU and Acorn thugs to townhall meetings. Not since Nixon has there been such a high level of paranoia in the White House. Having labeled all opposition as being extremism it is only a matter of time before some overreach and abuse of power occurs. Personally, I would hate to see a repeat of Nixon but I can see it in the making. All the ingredients are in place.
  • useitorloseit
    I think what you're seeing here goes much deeper than health care. Health care is just the spear head. The real thing thats happening is that people have finally gotten fed up with being ignored, lied to and in general craped on by those we send to washinton. Its like we elect them to govern FOR us, and when they get to the "district" they somehow get fooled into thinking that they are there to govern OVER us. We need to start over with a clean slate, get rid of "fancy nancy piglosi" and henry "weeeeeezle" waxman and others like them. Elect prople who realize they are there to protect OUR intrests, instead of corporate campagne contributors and special intrest groups, I think they are really going to be sent a message in the 2010 congressional races, with the 2012 presidential race being the exclaimation point!!!!!
  • anamericanidiot
    The problem is knowing who those people are. It seems the whole lot of them are corrupt and arrogant to the last.
  • 2bluestarmom
    Oh! By the way! Happy Anniversary Woodstock goers. Yes, my mind leads me back.....I can still see them all as I watched it on t.v.....oh...there's hillary, bill, malcomx, nancy pelosi and so many more! We really are in Kansas, huh todo?

    My how times have changed......or have they? Not at all. They are all still spitting in the faces of American GI's and mocking God and hating everyone. But I thought they wanted "peace and free love" Well, they got the free love part right anyway.
  • dowels

    you might want to check out the movie "Sir! No Sir!" for more information on the GI anti-war movement. This movie also addresses the issue of "spitting" and gives good reference to somebody who has studied that phenomenon very intensely. To sum it up, there was no "spitting". Please, watch this movie. Anyway, it's a good chronicle of how the GI's themselves were a huge key in the anti-war movement. Some people in the current occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan are trying to lead a similar type movement. Google "Victor Agosto".
  • aliy
    I'm going to ask you soldier haters again to please leave this site. We not only support our troops, a lot of us have family over there and it kills us to see you try to justify spitting on our soldiers.

    I understand they are fighting for your right to say stupid stuff and spit on them but please, stop insulting my brothers and sisters who are putting their lives on the line everyday in a hell hole of a country for your rights.

    And so you know, Victor bailed on MY friends who are over there now, same base, same deployment date, I'm really familiar with Killeen and Ft. Hood. since I have two friends he refused to go with, I hope he spends a long time in jail, he's nothing but a desserter.

    I'm sure my friends that DID get on that plane would appreciate you maybe saying something nice about THEM instead of pushing the story of a desserter you're holding up to be some kind of hero.
  • dowels

    To clarify, I was simply pointing out to bluestar that there is a man that has done a lot of research into the "spitting" phenomenon, and he found that there WAS NO SPITTING. That's what I was saying. So to accuse me of justifying the act of spitting on soldiers or being a "soldier hater" is a major leap, because there was no spitting and I never justified the idea to begin with....understand? You are accusing me of things that I never said or alluded to, which is usually a sign of frustration. I recommend the documentary "Sir! No Sir!". It's a very enjoyable movie.

    Thank you for sharing about your friends at Fort Hood. I also have friends and family in the service. I love them and occasionally try to separate myself from that connection in order to think more clearly about my country's involvement in the Middle East, i.e. why we are there and whether it is "right" or "wrong". I feel that each individual soldier has the right and duty to do the same. That is just me.

    Which brings me back to my main point: the GIs themselves were a HUGE part of the anti-war movement during Vietnam. It wasn't just the "hippies".
  • aliy
    My friend Kenny was spit on in NY, my friend Torey in Ft. Lauderdale. There WAS spitting. I will find time to watch the movie and see what it's about thank you for the suggestion.

    As for the GI's being a huge part of the anti war movement, that is a part of history, we all know that but you can't make the leap that just because GI's were a part of that movement NO ONE believed in them. I believe the phrase "hate the war not the warrior" came to light about that time. Specifically because people make the leap too easy from hating the war to calling the brave men and women fighting it terrorists.

    I've heard many times from people how barbaric our soldiers are. How wrong they are in what they do. I don't believe for a minute that my friends and other service men and woman are barbaric or wrong. They get orders from the top, no one's calling the top barbaric.

    Today there was a HUGE attack in Iraq today that was so big of a blast it shook the windows in parliment! You can't tell me that the country is capable to fixing stuff like that themselves. They need our help (the ones who want freedom and democracy) why would you condem them? We broke it, we have to fix it. Again, to me, this comes down to responsibility for your actions. We need to take responsibility for the actions, no matter if it was Bush's fault Obama's fault, Carter's fault or Nixons, the fact is as America, we need to live with the results of our actions and do everything we can to make it right and pulling out of an area that desperatly needs us (and has told us millions of times this is true) is wrong. It's fleeing our own mess. As an American, I would be very shamed if we ran away from responsibility like that.
  • aliy
    Peace and free love for those who agree, the rest of us can burn in hell. I guess we're just harshing their gig huh? Such Downers being all practical and honest. We suck
  • Name
    To all Christians, who did Jesus heal?

    A man with leprosy(Matthew 8 v 2-3 Mark 1 v 40-42 Luke 5 v 12-13)
    An army officer's servant (Matthew 8 v 5-13 Luke 7 v 1-10)
    Peter's mother-in-law (Matthew 8 v 14-15 Mark 1 v 30-31 Luke 4 v 38-39).
    A paralysed man (Matthew 9 v 2-8 Mark 2 v 1-12 Luke 5 v 18-26)
    The woman who touched him (Matthew 9 v 20-22 Mark 5 v 25-34 Luke 8 v 43-48)
    Two blind men (Matthew 9 v 27-31)
    A man with a withered hand (Matthew 12 v 9-13 Mark 3 v 1-5 Luke 6 v 6-10)
    A man born blind (Matthew 20 v 29-34 Mark 10 v 46-52 Luke 18 v 35-43)
    A deaf and mute man (Mark 7 v 31-37)
    A blind man (Mark 8 v 22-25)
    A crippled woman (Luke 13 v 10-17)
    A man with dropsy (Luke 14 v 1-4)
    Ten lepers (Luke 17 v 11-19)
    Malchus (Luke 22 v 50-51; John 18 v 10)
    The official's son (John 4 v 46-54)
    The paralysed man at the pool (John 5 v 1-9)
    A man born blind (John 9)

    The rich, the privileged, the homeless, friends, relatives, the disabled, the outcast. Consider whether the “Public Option”, whether “Single Payer”, whether “Universal” Health Insurance, isn’t something more like WWJD than the alternative. You decide.
  • anamericanidiot
    Sorry you steered off the path here. WWJD has nothing to do with whether the government should take over private health care. Jesus would have offered no opinion on that as he avoided politics. The solution to this problem is tort reform and fixing Medicare to fill the gaps of the uninsurable. The lawyers and their friends in government (most are lawyers) want to keep us from talking about that. Watch afternoon commercials from tort firms trolling for cases. That should be criminal.

    We can't force insurance companies to cover someone who's got cancer already but we can reform the system to provide for portability that's better than COBRA. The reform offered in HR3200 is an intrusion into my life. It places the government in a cradle to grave relationship that I do not want.

    And please stop with the Canadians love their health care. Those are the young people who've never used it for anything more than a broken arm. I have checked out the wait times. In big cities like Toronto you're looking at 12-26 weeks for anything minor like hemorrhoids or an MRI. MRI is minor? Not when you have cancer. But I heard Obama saying MRI are mostly unnecessary. Although that's how my wife's cancer was accidentally discovered.
  • aliy
    Canadians don't love their healthcare, those are the people who HATE America and want to see us collapse. They know what's going on here and there are some of them who are DYING to see us get screwed in this:

    There is one Canadian who's on here and fights with me daily about how SHE would never pay higher taxes for illegals to be covered but I should!!! They just want to see us implode. I really think they have some strange motive to want to see America destroyed. Maybe they're thinking about invading or something, but they really, really hate us.
  • aliy
    Name: Jesus did all that on his own, he didn't walk across the street from the blind man and rape the neighbors house to cure him.

    WWJD is a wonderful question and it's one I ask myself everyday. I have no problem helping the poor and people who NEED help. It's the loosers who won't get off their asses who just want me to float them because they are lazy that I am against floating.

    Like the homeless, I see signs here all the time "will work for food" well, you give them a little money they are happy, try handing one a ham sandwich, they are NOT looking for food (most of them) they are only looking for money for drugs and booze. WWJD in THAT situation? Would Jesus give them money for drugs and booze? I don't think so.

    Same thing with health insurance. You want EVERYONE to pay in, EVERYONE can use it. You want a select few to pay in to float the lazy (because we already have programs to help the poor in this country) is that really something Jesus would do?
  • Dora
    Thank you, Aliy, for providing a link to show that the quote that I already placed in my post reflected what was ACTUALLY SAID.
    and... once again I will place it here for the dim witted and slow learners: ( speaking of YOU Aliy)

    "These disruptions are occurring because opponents are afraid not just of differing views — but of the facts themselves. Drowning out opposing views is simply un-American. Drowning out the facts is how we failed at this task for decades."

    Now, let's read that again... "drowning out of apposing views is simply un-American".
    Both you and I know what that means: To not allow another voice to be heard is not the way we roll here in America.
    She called no person or persons "un-American". Just as Obama did not call the policeman "stupid", he said they "acted stupidly". They simply are not the same thing.

    Nancy Pelosi, who you constantly demonize here , is simply stating fact. When and individual or group of individuals with their own agenda take control of a public forum designed to allow a back and forth... let me repeat that: A BACK AND FORTH discussion of the issue at hand, these rude, uninformed individuals cause everyone to lose out on the opportunity to listen, ask questions, provide input, or state their opinions. This has been the case at a number of forums because people like you, Aliy- yes YOU, stomp around with your mouth flapping and your ears closed. You have placed on this site alone countless NON FACTS trying to pass them off at truth.
    You have the chicken little syndrome- shooting off your mouth with a 1/4 teaspoon of information - and a dozen buckets full of MISinformation. Stop promoting lies. We have had regular input from a CANADIAN citizen here who knows more than you do on the proposed bills, our current laws, and what is actually being said.

    You, in your stupidity and flat out determination to remain ignorant, you have served only to add fuel to the notions of those others who currently tote about with you ridiculous assumptions and flat out lies regarding what is being proposed.
  • aliy
    You can call me all the names you want Dora, the argument was that she didn't call us unamerican and YES SHE DID, YOU just posted it too!!!
  • anamericanidiot
    You should listen to everything she said. In 2006 she was all for disruption and drowning out the opposition. Those are the facts. Watch the Youtube video of her 2006 townhall. (I have a link if you can't search.) She was willing to tolerate some disruption even in her meeting since it came from the Bush-haters. When she say un-American she means those who disagree with her. When she says she's a fan of "disruptors" she means people with whom she agrees with.

    If you want to be informed read the bill HR3200. Otherwise you're just shooting off your mouth. Not one Liberal has addressed page 16 they only keep chanting. "you can keep your insurance." That is a lie by omission. You can keep it until it changes in any way. The bill is designed to phase out private insurance. That is a fact. Even Barney Frank has commented on this.
  • Dora
    First of all, it's important to note that, once again, you people have taken up on words being used by faux noise and other right wing bloggobutts- Pelosi never said that any gathering or protest by any individual or group was undemocratic... she said :

    "These disruptions are occurring because opponents are afraid not just of differing views — but of the facts themselves. Drowning out opposing views is simply un-American. Drowning out the facts is how we failed at this task for decades," Pelosi and Hoyer write. "The dialogue between elected representatives and constituents is at the heart of our democracy and plays an integral role in assuring that the legislation we write reflects the genuine needs and concerns of the people we represent."

    But's far easier for you people here to mouth and regurgitate the soundtracks coming from spin-masters of the just-say-no'ers than it is for you to look up what was actually said. The truth doesn't fit in with your anti-health care reform noise.

    This original host of this site has elected to farm out blogger space to any fringe right-wing dimwit with a keyboard it seems. "Julie Spears"- whoever that is- (no one knows and no bio is given, legit or otherwise) seems to take great pride in her ignorance. There is no snitch patrol, you see. No one is planning to pull the plug on granny. There are no re-orientation camps. No abortions can be funded through any proposed health care bill. No one is proposing to extend anything to illegal immigrants. There is not even a bill yet- none of the 5 bills that have come out of committee have been reconciled to create one health care reform bill.

    You people have had your undies in a bunch ever since it was clear that Obama was going to be the next president. Your utter ignorance, stupidity, lack of intellectual curiosity, and your combined bigotry, both racial and religious, is evident in every single post here.

    Because of your self-created fears and stupidity- you are more than willing to listen to idiots on a soap box than to do your own research. There is more than ample evidence that special interest groups and lobbyists for pharma. and health insurance interests want to see NO health care reform. They themselves are the source of many flat out LIES promoted by wing-nuts on the right. You little puppets are having your strings played by them and you cannot even see it. You are too damn ignorant. Remember the 2003 Medicare prescription drug bill, (I am guessing the answer from you would be "no" since you have all gone off the rails regarding "end of life counseling ) ...yes the bill...the one that passed with the votes of 204 GOP House members and 42 GOP Senators? Anyone want to guess what it provided funding for? Did you say counseling for end-of-life issues and care? Ding ding ding!! Idiots.

    And what, exactly is that - this counseling... hmmmmm?

    Let's go to the bill text, shall we? "The covered services are: evaluating the beneficiary's need for pain and symptom management, including the individual's need for hospice care; counseling the beneficiary with respect to end-of-life issues and care options, and advising the beneficiary regarding advanced care planning." The only difference between the 2003 provision and the infamous Section 1233 that threatens the very future and moral sanctity of the Republic is that the first applied only to terminally ill patients. Section 1233 would expand funding so that people could voluntarily receive counseling before they become terminally ill.

    So either Republicans were for death panels in 2003 before turning against them now--or they're lying about end-of-life counseling in order to frighten the bejeezus out of their fellow citizens and defeat health reform by any means necessary. Which is it, Mr. Grassley?

    Sarah? Aliy? 2blue? DS? Bubbles? Leslie? Jackie? Hmmmmm?

    Idiots. Ignorant idiots. Damn stupid people running around screaming "The sky is falling! The sky is falling!" That's all you will ever be.

    The sad part of it s that your stupidity and ignorance is bringing debt to this country with the ever-increasing high costs of medical care, the ever-increasing bankruptcies caused by medical bills and being dumped by profit driven insurance companies, and death to people badly in need of health care.
  • anamericanidiot
    Dora said, "Idiots. Ignorant idiots. Damn stupid people running around screaming "The sky is falling! The sky is falling!" That's all you will ever be."

    Yep, I recall it like it was yesterday, "If we do not fix our health care system, America may go the way of GM." AND "If we don't pass it now, our economy will see over 9% unemployment." Hypocrisy is all we ever get from you people.
  • 2bluestarmom
    Gosh! They really complain about that sky falling too much, don't they?

    What were you saying Dora?
  • 2bluestarmom
    Dora...what planet do you come from? Do not, I repeat, Do not take us to your leader!
  • anamericanidiot
    You know who her leader is.
  • aliy
    Dora, here's the article:

    She flat out uses the word "UN-AMERICAN" in reference to protestors.

    And if they didn't mean they were going to mandate Hospice care (baiscally numb pain until the older people croak) why now are they saying they will take that out of the bill!!!! I thought it wasn't in there! For MONTHS we've been hearing "that's not in there" From YOU Dora and the likes of other liberals Acorn is paying to come on here and make fools of themselves. But yestereday Obama clearly stated that if that Hospice shoot is a deal breaker, he'd take it out!!! Now I gotta ask, what was the lie, was the lie "That's not in the bill" or is the lie "we'll take that out"? If it was never in there as you and other liberals (including Obama) said WHY DO YOU NEED TO TAKE IT OUT?!

    You can spout whatever O-blah blah facts you want to repeat at me, the fact speak for themselves. He's been telliing us (and you just did too) no one's going to pull the plug on Grandma and thee is no hospice shoot. But NOW O blah blah is taking that out of the bill. How can you sit there and type to US that we're full of crap when this is just another example of how your messiah lied to EVERYONE, INCLUDING YOU for his own selfish cause?

    Do you feel hoodwinked? He tells you "no one's pulling the plug on grandma" and as you're here fighting HIS battle, he's back stabbing you telling everyone "well we can take that out of the bill if you're really against it"

    And just so you know, I have my own insurance, I pay my share of cost, I meet my deductable, and I am NOT the drain on the system the loosers are you're fighting for.

    Illegals, please, how is it going to SAVE us money to float all of them? The 14 million who make over $75,000 a year and just don't feel like getting insurance? Or how about the millions who already qualify for medicaid or medicare who won't get off their lazy asses and fill out the paperwork. Don't accuse ME of draining a system I pay into every frigin day of my life!
  • opus6
    This administration is following a path that could possibly lead to totalitarianism. Certainly setting up a snitch list against Americans exercising their right to free speech is a step down that road.
  • anamericanidiot
    Shadows of Nixon all over this administration.
  • urbaneolibailedout
    bho, $500+ (more of what I earned this 6 months unemployed and homeless, because of the miamidade authorities (gral.attny even still paralegal on me) on uniformed psyco torture me (they enjoy the terror, I have names, but need judges's who allow them to enjoy terror on people like me) protect "my" rulling para politicalfamily and already denounced castrocoyote, and their managers on jobs...
    bho, UNDESTAND THIS ON YOUR TERROR HELPER mind: I'm a very experienced anti-terror blogger and strategist, I help on making you to go on on self declare terror helper by "make you feel you as, UN$addam, maddof, etc, enjoy thinking because I'm homeless and jobless, your neolibases won't be blown of the face of drivebymedia, again...
    comunist crap mob, and you think you'll be "powerfull" forever?
    NA, NA, NAA
  • Matt5012
  • 2bluestarmom
    What we have here is............a failure to communicate....
  • LarryJackson
    It is rather odd that the liberals are raising so much fuss over conservatives being upset and possibly "organizing" protesters to show up at town hall meetings. Why is it okay for ACORN to organize protests against loan companies and not okay for conservative groups to organize protesters against this legislation? There is most certainly two different standards being applied.
  • aliy
    Acorn is paying people to show up at town halls now too. Check Craigslist, they are offering MONEY. I hope somewhere there's a reporter out there who has the b*lls to ask these people how much they are getting paid. One ad I saw was $300 for one afternoon holding a sign!

    Imagine if the conservatives tried to PAY people to believe in our cause. It just goes back to the voting population Democrats are trying to intice. The non-contributor, the people that always have their hand out for more of my tax dollars. Shame it's that way, but that is who they all are, beggers, theives and crooks.
  • 2bluestarmom
    yep, saw it on the news...someone with a video camera or phone filmed it...they had a bus load of them bussed in and many were wearing their acorn shirts.

    So...uh hum...I thought the "un americans" were supposed to be doing this? funny, I never have seen a video etc. of this. and if so, what difference does it make?

    The libs are doing it.
  • anamericanidiot
    They know they are doing it so they assume everyone is doing it. These people are like teens who never grew up. They can't reason, they won't read for themselves, they repeat everything they are told by those they look up to, and when they get caught they sneer and say, "Well, everybody else is doing it."
  • aliy
    I once said that. Did you ever have that boyfriend (girlfriend) who was ALWAYS thinking you were cheating on them? Then you found out they WERE cheating on YOU. That's where the paranoia comes from. Liberals are scared we're paying people to protest because they ARE paying people to protest!
  • ds1
    I attended a Tea Party in San Francisco yesterday and it was great! I don't know the exact count, but there had to be a couple thousand Patriots there! Pelosi, Boxer, Starke, Woolsey, and Feinstein were MIA, so held a 5 minute moment of silence for them. I was on the Security Team, and we only had to deal with a couple of libs in the crowd who were trying to incite our people. We quickly removed them from the crowd. We had a lot of wonderful speakers there including Brian Sussman who is THE Conservative Talk Show Host on KSFO Radio in San Francisco. There were a couple of local TV cameras there and we were shown on the 6:00 news. We were ALL fired up and angry at what this government is trying to force down our throats!! A lot of great signs and informed Patriots were there as this "grassroots" movement is gaining more and more steam! We MUST take back our country peole!! Don't give up!! We are winning!! Now I'm off to a Pete Starke Townhall Meeting this morning. Pray that our voices will be heard!
  • aliy
    Keep us posted on the town hall. We know you'll be fair and honest in what you report!!! We need more people like you on the ground! God Speed!!!
  • ds1
    Just got back from the Pete Starke Townhall Meeting. I was early, but not early enough to get into the meeting!! There was a LOT of people from both sides who didn't get in who were standing in line, so we had many opportunites to discuss obamacare with them. Fortunately the Holy Spirit kept me under control, so I was able to have a few discussions without emotion taking over. But the liberals were VERY emotional about it, and it becomes more evident to me that our battle is a spiritual one! They will NEVER change their minds. God is the ONLY one who can change hearts! Again, all of your christian Patriots need to PRAY HARD that God will reveal the TRUTH to them as we are going through this difficult process! We could hear screaming from inside the meeting, and some who came out said that Starke avoided answering their questions, and that they were yelled at by the liberals in the meeting. This didn't surprise me as I have been to Pete Starke Townhalls before, and he is COMPLETELY out of touch with reality! He had "his people" there to support him and scream at the opposition, so I think more progress may have been made outside than there was inside. God must have planned for us to stay outside all along! This event was EXACTLY what I thought it would be. If you have watched any of the other Democratic Townhalls lately you can imagine what this was like....but maybe even on a more emotional scale! I am in the belly of the liberal beast here in the S.F. Bay Area, so we are outnumbered here. But we aren't silent anymore!! God will prevail in the end!!
  • ds1
    Oh yeah, I forgot to report that Code Pink, the SEIU, and other "paid" thugs were there too! I asked a few of them what they were being paid, but they of course denied it.
  • aliy
    Did Acorn show up with a bus of people they were paying to be there? Keep that in mind. I believe it was you who showed me the ads where they were paying people to support healthcare reform! I'm sure a lot of those people who had "passion" for the cause actually had passion for the check they were going to cash once they left.

    I sound so mean when I read that back but it's TRUE and that's a sad, sad thing when you have to pay someone to be on your side.
  • ds1
    I didn't see any buses but there were lots of them wearing professionally prepared stickers and signs, so they had obviously been organized by some group whether it was Acorn or someone else. It doesn't matter to me who they are because they all have the same evil desires. And I did ask them how much they were being paid but they just laughed and denied it.
  • aliy
    I had total faith that you would be the first to walk up and flat out ask!!! Thanks for the update DS!!!
  • 2bluestarmom
    Excellent and right on. Now, how do we legally get them (fascist thugs) out of our White House and prosecute them for their crimes against the American people?

    Who knows Constitutional law here and what our rights as American citizens are to go forward with the process on a national level?
  • Matt5012
    Our Rights? Well, we have the Right to a redress of our Grievances for one. These town halls are a good start, however, we can tell that not much is going to come from them. To gain the end result of that Right, we must MAKE it happen - the Government will not simply stop of their own accord no matter what "Party" is in power.

    So, the more radical notions that we have are Common Law Courts and Grand Juries. When the System fails to uphold its delegated responsibilities, this is one of the most powerful tools we have. Also, we should not forget about the Juries in the Government Courts. Jury Nullification is a great power beyond most people's understanding. If We The People decide that Laws are unjust and Unconstitutional, you can simply refuse to convict.

    Judges are now illegally informing Juries that they must judge the facts of the case and not the Law itself but even a cursory knowledge of History shows this simply isn't true. Prohibition was repealed mainly because of the fact that Juries simply refused to convict anymore. They were tired of the Law and would not enforce it.

    The Common Law Courts must be considered - a Citizen Grand Jury is quite a Powerful thing and the Sheriff of your County must be included and made aware. He cannot be ordered even by the President to do anything but he damn sure can enforce the indictments of a Citizen Grand Jury.

    Then you come to the Declaratory provision ensuring that Americans are aware we have both the Right AND the Duty to throw off a Government that no longer feels or acts bound by the Charter which created them. This is, of course Armed Revolution, which is the reason the 2nd Amendment exists in the first place. If you are interested in that route, you must be damn sure you're prepared for the consequences - especially in the times of The Patriot Act, the Military Commissions Act and a host of other ominous regulation and preparations.

    The People are where the power lies - it is them we must make remember that the Constitution has NOTHING to do with Democrat vs. Republican or Left vs. Right. It is Freedom vs. Control and it really is that simple. In extreme cases, the logical fallacy becomes the reality.

    Historically, 5% of a population has been the critical mass for a movement to catch on. If 5% of Americans REFUSE to allow the existence of a Government bound by nothing then they have the momentum to continue.

    How many people today, Democrat or Republican (Because I see a majority of Statists in BOTH Parties) truly prefer the animating Contest of Liberty over the calm tranquility of servitude? How many would even know what in the hell Samuel Adams was talking about?
  • aliy
    Julie, I'm with you. Where the heck is the nation organization of Women, the newest insults are "little lady" and "housewives"!!!

    Acorn is starting to pay people to get on the bus. You would think if there was a real cause they really believed in you wouldn't have to bribe them into getting on the bus!

    It's just disgusting what's going on in our country. I've never seen a more dismissive group of politicians in my life!
  • JulieSpears1
    aliy, I gave up on the National Organization of Women nearly 20 years ago, when all they stood for was advancing the rights of gays/lesbians. They were a far cry from the early days, when they stood for advancing causes all women share, such as equal pay, healthcare, sexism and sexual harassment, among others. We could also ask where they are with all of the Sarah Palin bashing that has gone on since she entered the national spotlight, and continues even now. I guess you can't be a straight woman, mother, wife and politician all at the same time and be worthy of common rules of decency and respect. But that's another story. Shame on them for not addressing a disturbing situation that was allowed to continue against the former governor and her family.
  • aliy
    You are right. I believe with Sarah Palin a lot of us REAL women are behind her specially because these other organizations are NOT. She doesn't need a bunch of sports bra wearing lesbians to stand up for what she believe, she does it herself! Don't get me wrong. I wear a sports bra when I'm playing sports...but you know what I'm saying. Sarah Palin is MORE an example for women becuase other women hate her and she STILL won't compromise her values. We need more people like her in the conservative party.
  • 2bluestarmom
    aliy, she is a REAL WOMAN. ;-) Whether she runs for president or not, I admire her for the integrity, sincerity, honesty, that the anarchist can't even come close to understand. It's a no brainer. She's a good woman.
  • usofa
    It's been real.
  • aliy
    See ya. Sorry you couldn't break our arguements so you just started name calling. We'll miss the catchy condesending "pathetic" comments! Bye Bye, thanks for playing!!!
  • usofa
    break your arguments?? this is getting funny. what arguments?
    you guys are not playing with a full deck! everyone blogging can tell!
    but i do have to thank you for calling my comments "catchy" at least.
    thanks for playing? i knew this was just a game of "gotchya" to you people.
    it's easy for you because you never come to the table open-minded. you just come to win, and that's why you and those like you will conitinue losing.
    because you don't have any interest in learning or growing. you just want to
    spew your noxious opinions everywhere and hope as many people as possible get sprayed with your skunk-like opinion-juice. this country was not founded nor has ever been defended by those like you. it appearsyou dwell in an unfortunate place: the wrong side of history. ouch.
  • usofa
    Now that I've read all your comments I realize I've been sparring with a hateful,
    homophobic racist who is beyond absolution. All your pathetic little justifications
    for your beliefs are a thin veil for a truly troubled soul. Seek help and quit trying to preach to the converted, the converted in the case of this site being the perverted.

    Unbelievably sad.
  • BillyBob
    AGREED! Sarah Palin is EXACTLY what the conservative party needs! She demonstrates that age-old principle that what you believe can have nothing at all in common with the truth, and anyone that challenges you is unpatriotic! Morons. She's not even qualified to do a local access cooking show. But please, by all means, get her on a ticket, siphon off those nutbag far right quack votes and maybe give a real, rational conservative voice a chance to be heard.
  • JulieSpears1
    First of all, someone once said don't trust anyone with two first names...but having said that, let's get to the point Billy Bob. With respect to her qualifications, I don't really think you want to go there. If so, we'll have to bring up the qualifications of Mr. Obama...a mere 18 months in senate, and half of that was spent campaigning somehow qualifies him for the highest office in the country? Get real! Secondly, a community organizer and hob-knobing with a bunch of radicals (Ayers & Rev. Wright just for starters) for the past twenty or so years does not qualify him for the post he has...yet, here we are. So stranger things have happened. I think the fact he can't seem to get out of his own way to get anything accomplished is a great testament to his lack of experience, qualifications and ability to "bring people together" which according to him, was one of his strengths. Sarah Palin frightens people because she is in command of herself. She's a wife, mother, politician...whom, incidentally did a great job in her home state as governor. Not exactly small potatoes. Plus she's pretty. Men find that intimidating (cowardice and insecurity on their part), and women are just plain jealous. Too bad people can't get past the exterior and see that she is just a straightforward, down-to-earth person who believes in her country, and feels she has something to offer in the way of being a public servant.

    Moreover Billy Bob, how about this for a concept....perhaps you ought to say "why" you feel she isn't qualified, instead of the name calling that seems to be the cornerstone of the left. Perhaps then you can be taken seriously. Until then however, you have nothing of substance to say other than the same old drivel, thus, can't really be taken seriously.
  • somelibertarianjew
    Just for the record I'm a Libertarian before you go off the handle "Liberal-Bashing" just because I got beef with the GOP.

    Actually to be quite honest, Sarah Palin is the LAST thing the GOP needs and honestly they need to ditch her or at least put a muzzle on her trap.

    Back in 2008 I was honestly considering voting for John McCain, until he picked Sarah Palin. She is the epitome of everything I loathe about the far-right. Low intelligence, beliefs before fact, self-righteous, and yes, a bigot. With her it's not about a lack of experience, It's a lack of intelligence.

    You republicans keep going on and on about values and morals (when really all your saying is you support a Christian Theocratic Republic). It doesn't matter if a person is a good as gold Christian, if they don't have the brainpower to deal with all the issues this country faces, it's much akin to asking a farmer who has never flown before to fly a stealth bomber and to drop a bomb on a specific house next to a school full of children. The result is not going to be good.

    Even though Mr. McCain was old as molasses if he would of picked a candidate more aligned to the middle and showed intelligence he probably would have won the election. (Or if you guys really believed in smaller government you would of made Ron Paul the candidate and he would of picked someone with some intelligence)

    Instead Sarah Palin was picked and just about every person towards the center and left of it ran scared shitless. I had to ask myself: "This person could very well be the President of the United States?". Not with my vote.

    I can't say I'm happy at all with the Obama admin at all. But my hand was forced, as was many other centrists and center-left minded people. Many of us centrists cannot vote for someone who we can plainly see is of a lower intelligence than ourselves.

    Blame the media, blame Obama, blame whoever makes you feel warm and fuzzy inside. In the end though it's the GOP's fault for conceding to the far-right of their party and driving everyone else away. Weather you like it or not the Christian Coalition is no longer enough to keep the GOP in power. Your going to have to start going for more secular party members, who are not theocrats, it's either that or fade into the background with the rest of us 3rd party members, actually that would turn into the "2nd Party" members.
  • aliy
    You say potato, I say potato (that doesn't really work in print) but you know what I'm getting at. Yes, a strong, value minded, unwavering in her conviction, moral based beautiful woman who has a loving family to stand with her and a love of God and country is EXACTLY what the conservatives need.

    We just in general need more leaders who are strong, value minded, unwavering in their conviction and moral based, we don't care if it's her or someone else, right now we're all out in the breeze getting left behind by "conservative light' and it's about time someone stood up for us.

    You call us nutbag, we call it morally centered. Like liberals call Obama an American and we call him facist. Just semantics in the end right?
  • aliy
    And, Billy, I know you're not going to like this much but Obama really scrapped the bottom of the barrel to get HIS votes. I see nothing wrong with us calling on nutbags to help our cause. After all, when it's all said and done, it's who's got to most votes to count, right? What is that saying, the enemy of my enemy is my friend?
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