The Myth of the Uninsured American

July 31st, 2008 Conservative Cutie

When we hear the line “47 million Americans go without health insurance” the image that immediately comes to mind for most people is either a sick child or a working-class family caught in the trap of making too much money for Medicare but not enough to pay for insurance premiums.  This is an inaccurate picture.  To be sure, healthcare coverage is an important issues and needs to be addressed by the next president, but often info about the problem is spun in a misleading way.

According to the 2006 Census report on Income, Poverty and Health Insurance Coverage, by far the largest population group to go without health insurance is young adults ages 18-34, making up about 2/5 of all those uninsured.  This group tends to be in good health, and generally does not stay uninsured for more than a couple of years at most.  This is most likely due to factors like since this group tends to be healthy they don’t feel they need to spend the money on insurance, or that they’re making the transition from high school and college into the work force, have not gotten a job with health care yet, and will not go uninsured for long.

Children living in poverty were the most likely group of children to be uninsured, which I find interesting since Medicare exists so that those living in poverty will not go without healthcare.  If you live below what is considered the “poverty line” and are a citizen of the US you should be eligible for Medicare, so perhaps their parents have not obtained coverage for them.  Since the State Children Health Insurance Program ( SCHIP) was made into law states are working on developing plans that cover every uninsured child in their state regardless of income (some states, like New York, even cover illegal immigrants under these plans).  The problem of uninsured children is being taken care of and soon there will be no more children that go without healthcare, even if the new president did absolutely nothing.  Neither candidate can really claim that they will save the uninsured child.  The only problem that will remain is making sure parents sign their children up for these programs.

Considering that 1/7th of the federal budget is spent on health care, health care is, indeed, expensive.  Most full time jobs (and even many part time jobs) offer employees some kind of access to healthcare.  It isn’t free, and it’s up to the employees to decide to opt-into these plans.  If the employee decides that healthcare is not a priority to them and they do not want to spend the money necessary to gain access to their employer’s plan it’s their personal decision and I’m not sure the government has any responsibility to convince them their health is worth spending money on to insure.  There’s nothing we can do to force people to have health insurance, short of making it illegal to go without, which neither candidate is suggesting.

“If you are one of the 45 million Americans who don’t have health insurance, you will have it after this plan becomes law. No one will be turned away because of a preexisting condition or illness.”

The biggest fallacy of the Obama healthcare plan is that it would cover every America.  It wouldn’t.  It would provide the option of health care, but it would still cost money and I suspect that lots of those uninsured adults between 18-34 would still rather spend the money on something else.  It wouldn’t do any more to insure children than is already being done independently of his plan. 

At the end of the day it would be the individual’s choice to obtain coverage for themselves, and short of becoming a true socialist nation there is nothing America can do to make sure that happens.

Tags: healthcare, obama healthcare, uninsured americans, socialism, socialist nation, healthcare insurance programs, medicare, healthcare plan


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  • ultravivid
    Why are so many Americans opposed to providing healthcare for all it's citizens? Are we so selfish? Shame on all of us.
  • Dora
    Cutie-  what you need to do is look up the difference between Medicare and Medicaid.
  • WadeHM
    Remove our politicians Dave, either recall them or vote them out. Problem is, the next politician maybe the same as the previous. Politics has been corrupt for sometime now. and we need to fight back against these people.
  • David W. Walters
    Wade,
    OK!  The system is simply pure bribery, and what can We, the people do?
    I have no answer to that my friend, so i'll continue oiling my weapons.
  • WadeHM
    "We, the people are already, and have been sacrificing for the government AND their corporate contractors........
    It's high time We the people break this relationship between the power of influence and bribes(campaign contributions) and our elected officials."


    David,


    Finally, something we agree on. Campaign contributions make me angry because our politicians do the will of the contributors. We get nothing and the politicians fill their personal coffers with more green stuff, while you and I, again, get nothing. 


    Yes, we have been sacrificing, but at the will of the government not of our own will. Halliburton and Blackwater have profited well in Iraq, and all they sacrifice is the lives of their workers. I am sure that to them, those lives are a small "sacrifice" to pay for billions of dollars. Makes me sick.
  • David W. Walters
    Wade,
    "....................the people sacrificing for the government has never worked. All the people are left with is nothing."
    In this day and age, the government has sent "the people" to Iraq......why?
    Not because of an imminent threat so much as a means of profit for a few.
    Yeah, i know you had something else in mind, yet this comes to mind in light of our present conversation of the government's role in our society.
    We, the people are already, and have been sacrificing for the government AND their corporate contractors........
    It's high time We the people break this relationship between the power of influence and bribes(campaign contributions) and our elected officials.
  • WadeHM
    David and Toe,


    You just love twisting everything I say don't you. If you look at American history, the people sacrificing for the government has never worked. All the people are left with is nothing. My refusing to tighten my belt is not selfish. My family comes first before anything. If I have to tighten my belt my family has to suffer the consequences and I WILL NEVER ALLOW MY FAMILY TO SUFFER BECAUSE YOU EXPECT ME to sacrifice for you? I hardly think so. 


    This Team America concept you want to FORCE on everyone is not freedom. 


    America is about FREEDOM, CHOICE, AND INDIVIDUALISM.
  • David W. Walters
    HoBo.....
    "It's just the People Dave.
    The "People" are supposed to wield the Government, not the other way around."
    Finally we are in agreement.........uh, no, wait......Which people are you talking about?  The CEO's?
    Just because they have the bucks to finance a candidate, shouldn't give them a bigger voice in government.......but it does, huh?


     
    in
  • HOBOBOH
    Hey Dave,

    You said  ..  "HoBo....the way you state it.......the government&the people are beholden to the capitalist juggernaut."

    I think i can see now where you keep getting a disconnect from the obvious logic trail i have posted to you.

    It's not the Government & the People.

    It's just the People Dave.

    The "People" are supposed to wield the Government, not the other way around.

    Your way of thinking, no matter how well intentioned, leads to the Government running the People.


    out.
  • David W. Walters
    I find it interesting, in light of Phil Gramm's statement..."a nation of whiners"--just who the real whiners are?
    It does seem rather childish to not want to play when someone else is in charge........"but no one should be forced to be a member of that team. "
    I played when Reagan, and those 2 Bush's were running things, and even when Bill was getting oval office BJ's......
    But don't worry Wade, i fear The right wing smear machine will pull off 1 more for you and your guys.   But eventually the American people will wake up like they did in 1932.
  • toe
    wade, you are exactly what people mean when they refer to conservatives as being selfish and mean spirited. 
    it's all about you.  the hell with anyone else.
    i hope that you do not have children.

    david, it was not a gaffe.  he's just selfish.
  • David W. Walters
    "..... It is a team effort, but no one should be forced to be a member of that team. "
    So you quit when things don't go your way?
    Wade doesn't want to be part of Team America?
    Shame on you!
    Kinda childish if you think about it.
    But i'll cut ya a break.......that was just a gaffe, huh?
  • WadeHM
    Oh yes, tighten the belt, that is a true Democrat. Every Democrat president since Jimmy Carter has told Americans that. No, I refuse to tighten my belt. It is not for the betterment of America. Every time Americans tighten their collective belts the economy takes a dump as it is now.


    It IS a choice. America is about choice. It is a team effort, but no one should be forced to be a member of that team. 


    AMERICA= FREEDOM OF CHOICE. What part of that don't you get?
  • David W. Walters
    No, it's a team effort.......to make America grow.  It's not a choice, because we are all in this together.  Our nation has paved the way for all these companies to make a fair profit, and in these hard times we all have to tighten the belt, huh?
  • WadeHM
    $7 billion is a windfall? Did you not see my post? Exxon/Mobile, according to the IRS, pays 27 billion a year in taxes. 7 billion to oil companies (plural) is not a windfall. Granted, they shouldn't get anything at all, but the oil companies contribute more than the rest of America COMBINED. Insurance companies dole out money too. Insurance companies contribute millions of dollars to emergency response agencies like police, fire, and ems, by buying bullet proof vests, thermal imaging cameras, and defibrillators.


    They all still make tones of profit, insurance and gas prices in the US are still too high, but it isn't like they don't put back into the system at all and help out. They have their good moments and bad too. They could all do a little more, but they don't have too, and neither do I, but I do because it is a choice. That is what America is all about, FREEDOM OF CHOICE DAVE, and you want to take that away.
  • David W. Walters
    " The U.S. government over the next five years will give a windfall of $7 billion to oil companies -- yes, the same oil companies that reported record profits last year. But wait, it gets worse: If one oil company that is suing the government succeeds, that windfall could hit nearly $35 billion. Oh, and one more thing: There appears to be little anyone can do about it. Think about that the next time you pay a small fortune to fill your tank."
    http://economistsview.typepad.com/economistsvie...

    Am i a communist?  Have i advocated nationalization of the oil industry?
    No, i am just an American, who worked hard for a living and expect the oil companies, insurance companies to do the same.
    What could be more fair?
  • WadeHM
    "Exxon/Mobile, and all the insurance underwriters had best get on board and serve America first!  That means paying their fair share in this time of need!"


    My God, you are a communist, Dave. Think about what you are saying. They HAVE to pay their fair share? Really? That sir, is communism. Besides, Exxon/Mobile alone pays $27 BILLION a year in taxes
  • David W. Walters
    "Free enterprise is propaganda? Free enterprise is always better than government control."
    --No, repeating the same mantra over and over is propaganda


    "The problem is that no one seemed to think a new war would add new patients to the mix.......and i who is to blame for that?"
    The GOVERNMENT!(says Wade)
    A republican congress and president when this war began, huh?
    John McCain's posse, wasn't it?
  • David W. Walters
    Wade,
    the issue isn't all or nothing.........
    It isn't weather we have just 2 alternatives.......
    Unbridled, unfettered Capitalism that runs the government... or,
    a pure government controlled economy............there may be a middle road.

    The people and the business that make America great are in this together, and both have to make concessions.  The understanding i get from you and HoBo is that the United States and the great people of this nation should serve the Capitalistic juggernaut.

    It's not what i believe, dammit!  Exxon/Mobile, and all the insurance underwriters had best get on board and serve America first!  That means paying their fair share in this time of need!
  • WadeHM
    "Perhaps only the rich should have police and fire protection too.  Makes sense if we are to stomach your ideas."


     These aren't my "ideas". This is reality, you picking and choosing parts of what I say. What I said was, there is no law stating a community has to provide police or fire protection or ems, or water or electricity. It is for the "benefit" of the community to provide those things if they want people to live there. It has nothing to do with class. You are just taking my words and twisting them again in your normal fashion.


    There are communities in the US that do NOT provide water, there are communities in the US that do not provide fire protection. Those communities and the people in them choose to live that way, and that includes rich people too. The consequence is if your house burns no one will come. And they know that and as a result their insurance is sky high, but they pay little in the way of taxes. A fair trade if that is the way you want to live.
  • WadeHM
    "The problem is that no one seemed to think a new war would add new patients to the mix.......and i who is to blame for that?"


    The GOVERNMENT!


    "So keep on proclaiming that free enterprise is always best......Dr. Paul Joseph Goebbels.......that has been an effective propaganda tool in the republican kit."


    Free enterprise is propaganda? Free enterprise is always better than government control. Look what happened to the Russian people under total government control. I was in Russia before the Iron Curtain fell. I was in Chekloslovakia when it was going through its revolution, when it was still under communist rule. Trust me, you don't want to live like that.


    We fought Fascism, Communism, and Socialism for a reason. In every case you lose life, liberty, and property, the three things we hold dear. If you want to live under government control and socialism or communism and lose your liberties and pay higher taxes, then please, take the next plane out of the US.
  • David W. Walters
    "The government itself is inefficient. Again, look at how many bad stories there are of how our government treats our soldiers who need mental or physical help after coming home from war."

    My VA care at the Raleigh NC outpatient clinic was superb!  The Fayetteville NC VA hospital where i now seek care is deplorable.  The problem is that no one seemed to think a new war would add new patients to the mix.......and i who is to blame for that?

    So keep on proclaiming that free enterprise is always best......Dr. Paul Joseph Goebbels.......that has been an effective propaganda tool in the republican kit.
  • WadeHM
    Edited,
    "And if it weren't for the law that makes the government go through a bidding process, the government would pay anything anybody asks, and when they don't go through the bidding process we pay $200 for toilet seats and screw drivers."
  • WadeHM
    Actually the private sector does run everything better and more efficiently than the government. And if it weren't for the law that makes the government go through a bidding process prices the government would pay anything anybody asks, and when they don't we pay $200 for toilet seats and screw drivers. That is government efficiency at its best. Does the private sector rip-off the government? Sure they do, everyday, but it is the government's fault because their inefficient system doesn't keep track of costs and when they finally do figure it out it is too late.


    The government itself is inefficient. Again, look at how many bad stories there are of how our government treats our soldiers who need mental or physical help after coming home from war. And you want them to run health care for the rest of US?


    Oh God no.
  • David W. Walters
    "Don't EVER forget it is the capitilist jauggernaut which feeds the Government.  Not the other way around.  Keep it up and you'll kill the golden goose.  This is basic stuff man."

    HoBo....the way you state it.......the government&the people are beholden to the capitalist juggernaut......the capitalist juggernaut needs to grow up and become part of America instead of this parasitic relationship you describe.
    It our tax dollars that pay for these rigged bids!
  • HOBOBOH
    More than 50% of Americans are invested in the stock market Dave.   They have taken the path to self reliance for their retirement.  I'd suggest you do the same.  Unless you enjoy being a ward of the state.

    Blackwater is FULLY qualified to the work, that's why they get it.  Halliburton is FULLY qualified to do the work.  That's why they get it. 

    What you are upset about is the bidding process.  Gosh, guess who is in charge of that?  The Government Dave.  Your heroes!

    Still waiting for your long list of things the Government does better.  LOL

    Don't EVER forget it is the capitilist jauggernaut which feeds the Government.  Not the other way around.  Keep it up and you'll kill the golden goose.  This is basic stuff man.

    out.
  • David W. Walters
    Wade
    Misguided...?  No.
    Perhaps only the rich should have police and fire protection too.  Makes sense if we are to stomach your ideas. 
    The private sector runs EVERYTHING better.....?  Just ask the troops how much better Blackwater is than than say, 3/505 82 Abn.
    No, it's you guys that don't get it.  So much of our government has been privatized in bid-free contracts that are the result of lobbies crafting laws that end up costing the taxpayers and profiting the few shareholders.  my taxes shouldn't be used to profit a few.
  • WadeHM
    Hoboboh,


    David is a misguided soul who thinks the government is responsible for taking care of him from cradle to grave and everyone else should pay the government to take care of him. As I have stated previously, the only things the government is responsible for are our liberties, our inalienable rights, that are granted to us in the Constitution and Bill of Rights, and Declaration of Independence.


    David doesn't want to see that health care is a benefit, not a right, and the government shouldn't get involved in the way David wants. We have shown example after example of why the government shouldn't run health care, but he totally ignores us. The private sector runs virtually everything better than the government.


    Do the rich get medical preference? Yes they do because they have the money. Can the rich afford better homes and cars? Yes they can, but I don't see David demanding that the government give him a better home and car.
  • HOBOBOH
    You make it sound like it wasn't privatized in the first place.


    Let's reverse it Dave  ..  Has the Government truly solved ANY real problem in this country by taking it over?  Think hard.  There is a very clear pattern which should be glaring at you.  


    I mean honestly, can't you see it for the power grab that it is?




    out.
  • David W. Walters
    HoBo....
    And does privatizing everything solve the problem?

    in
  • HOBOBOH
    No matter how you feel about insurance, either mandatory universal or people personal carrier optional (or none), the fact of the matter is it's TOO EXPENSIVE!!  That much everyone can agree upon.


    So what needs to happen is the price of medicine and the delivery system costs need to be brought down regardless.  


    You don't bring the price of ANYTHING down by giving the Government control of it.  It works the other way around.  This is self evident.  One need only look at medicare, Fred Mac, Fannie Mae and Social Security to name but a few.  All in the red and are never going to get into the black.  


    So implementing ways to bring the price down can be achieved several ways.  Tort reform would go a long way to reducing costs to the medical community and these savings would be reflected further down the line. Take the teeth away from vulturous lawyers.  
    Peel off the regulatory layers (not all) of the Government as well. Even more savings without affecting the quality of services and maintaining the free market pressures.  


    So instead of arguing if we should hand over an inflated industry to the Government or not, if the prices can be reduced (they can), this whole issue will disappear.  


    Side note:  the US Government total regulatory bill to you the Joe Taxpayer is more then the entire Canada's GNP!!  FFS!!




    out.
  • Cassie
    I totally disagree with your premise about how the uninsured are young and healthy.
    First of all I work in LA where I know tons of people working in the entertainment industry in your 18-35 demo - unless they belong to a union they mostly don't have health insurance. And it's not because they are "young and healthy" it's because it's too expensive. My friend was 29 didn't have health insurance and had a severe asthma attack and almost died. She ended up in the hospital with a $48,ooo bill after staying there for a week. She had to apply for their charity care program. She worked on a basic cable tv show where she didn't have health insurance. It seems absurd that a college-educated white collar worker should have to go to a charity care program, she is neither poor or indigent but she doesn't make enough money to buy health insurance.

    Also - I lived in the UK for a couple of years as a student. You can say what you like about universal healthcare but I got sick there and was admitted to a hospital for a few days. I came out and never paid a bill. My prescription no matter what they were for were $5.00. My doctor's visits were free. Does that really sound so HORRIBLE to you guys?

    There are a lot of people in the 18-35 demographic with health problems from diabetes to Hodgkins Lymphoma - just because you're young doesn't mean you don't need health insurance. Never mind that this demographic is THE child-rearing demographic, and I'm sure gets in as many traffic accidents as the rest of the population. All this requires health insurance.

    I don't get it.
  • toe
    @ML Smith,
    I thank you for your thoughtful post (#130).  One of the best items that I have seen you write. I cannot help but think though, as indicated by the reply of others, that it's a little over the heads of some here.    

    "The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people are full of doubts."
    ~Bertrand Russell
  • Hanno the Defiler
    Comrade pleasehelp,


    I was forced to flee my home-world from the catastrophic consequences of the neo-conservative library policies of our previous regime. Hailing from a planet of interstellar labor warriors, all of whom are equally capable, hard-working, self-sufficient, and resilient, I nod my head in solemn approval of the comparison you provided of your understandably socialist and compassionate system to the unfair, soulless, capitalist healthcare system of your homeland; this..."Ah-merica".


    I find it shocking that any citizen among you, given the equal achievement and contribution to society of each member of the hive cluster, could possibly be denied equitable access to quality healthcare. However, I am glad to see that your mindless leaders have not yet deprived you of every drones' right; a functioning library card. Count your blessings young pleasehelp...salvation is near.


    Thankfully, I have had the privilege of reading your Socialist Earth Directive - 'Dayleekoz' I believe it is called - which depicts your enslaved nation as the dregs and outcasts of your doomed planet. I am sorry my friend, for the unfortunate and clearly undeserved status of your people, for you must truly be the least fortunate inhabitants of this 'Earth' should such a clearly fair and balanced website consider you as such. One would think that such a nation, no matter how poor, would have the humility and self respect to at least ATTEMPT to provide equal care for it's own workers! Particularly in a nation-state as poor as yours, one would think that the obvious and unquestionably equal contribution of each member of your society would earn them equal access to the motherland's resources!!!


    I can only assume that the other socialist nations of your planet are transporting regular medical, educational, and humanitarian relief to your shores. Surely, your international community will provide the shelter you need until my arrival.


    Fear not comrade. Cradle our ally Davidwalters in your arms and prepare for your deliverance. Upon the resolution of our current on-board cantina-workers union conflict, our warp drives will be operational once again...and we will come to save you and destroy these wicked conservatives (particularly incredibly attractive, atypical, blond female ones). This Ah-merica must be crushed!


    Hanno the Defiler

    High Overlord, Commanding
    ZSSR Mannoroth
  • Kevin S. Willis
    Actually . . .

    Semantics:
    1. Linguistics. a. the study of meaning.  b. the study of linguistic development by classifying and examining changes in meaning and form. 
    2. Also called significs. the branch of semiotics dealing with the relations between signs and what they denote. 
    3. the meaning, or an interpretation of the meaning, of a word, sign, sentence, etc.: Let's not argue about semantics. 

    If that's a ploy I'm using, then good for me. :)
  • Reaper
    ML Smith.  What of the hundreds of thousands of Iraqis killed by Saddam?  What of the Kurds who were facing extinction before we intervened, and now have the opportunity to take part in their country's affairs? 

    Should we just have let Saddam ethnically cleanse Iraq?  We may have gone into Iraq under false pretenses.  It may have been a stupid thing to do without a solid plan of action.  But unjustified it most certainly was not. 

    You talk about the damage done to our own troops -- who are being well taken care of, despite your believe to the contrary -- but you completely ignore both the past horrors that were punished and the future horrors that were prevented by our overthrowing Saddam.  Our sacrifices are but a drop in the bucket compared to the blood shed by victims of Saddam Hussein alone, much less the other people we have since brought down in Iraq. 

    You and your ilk are perfectly willing to throw money at the despotic regimes committing acts of terror on their people and call yourselves humanitarians, but when it comes to real, substantiative aid in the form of military intervention you call us warmongers and imperialists.  Perhaps you should go move to North Korea, Iraq or Iran for a few months and see how ready you are to see American tanks to roll up your street.
  • HOBOBOH
    definition of:

    Enhance : 
    1. To make greater, as in value, beauty, or effectiveness; augment.

    Semantics:
    1.) Ploy used by Kevin S. Willis

    Out.
  • Kevin S. Willis
    Because "enhancing" is not good enough. Life must be "perfected". For example, while we have the richest poor in the world, and our poor is, by and large, middle-class compared to the poor of even the 1940s, it's a tragedy, it's something "intentionally" inflicted by conservatives, entreprenuers, or others . . . never mind the horrid state for the poor in dictatorship and other government run countries where everything is nationalized.

    And when you get into the stats of the technical poor who are no longer poor a decade later, you begin to realize the whole deal of poverty in America is something of a straw man, propped up by (a) not including government benefits as income in calculations of poverty levels and (b) making no distinction between recent immigrants who came from their far superior home countries without any kind of wealth or property whatsoever and folks who have lived here forever and are still, unfortunately, below the poverty line. Only in America is the lack of health insurance by folks who have houses, cars, television sets, DVD players, Xboxes, iPods and cable television a national travesty.

    I love the idea of a Global Poverty Initiative--tax hard working American's in the free market to subsidize global dictators and prevent them from ever having to change their oppressive, despotic systems, and call it Global Economic Justice. Alas, if America ever wants to really do something about global poverty, we need to cut out foreign aid (not trade, mind you, just the billions and subsidies we send these despotic regimes "for the people") to every country with (a) signficant hurdles to starting a business, property ownership, or building capital or (b) over 50% of nationalized industries. Zimbabwe? So long, sorry, try again later. And so on. Our tax dollars prop up many corrupt regimes throughout the world and prevent them from ever having to compete legitimately on the world market. If America and, in some cases, Europe, stopped subsidizing these clowns, the only folks left without property rights and free markets in the Western mold would be dictatorships sitting on a whole lot of oil. Then we tackle that problem with alternative energy and increasing our own refining and production capacity.

    Done and done.
  • HOBOBOH
    Well said .. 

    I might also add that indeed along with the Dictators, communists and socialists, the "utopians" also hold back the free markets, which would enhance EVERYONES lives.

    They don't wish the free markets to be allowed to solve the worlds greatest problems (it can), because it would make their world view collapse. 

    Then what would they talk about during the weed sessions?  UFO'S I suppose.


    out.
  • Kevin S. Willis
    Liberals (like the Bolsheviks in 1982 movie version of Annie) don't like Wal-Mart because, as Grace Farrell explains to Annie when the Bolsheviks try to assassinate Daddy Warbucks (and fail), "They want to kill him because he's living proof that capitalism works!"

    They also don't like Wal-Mart because they give the masses more and better access to more material goods, which should be reserved to the elites (elites being defined as well-educated folks doing "important things" to save the world). While they do bully suppliers into providing goods at cheaper prices--that redounds to the benefit of the consumer, whose money from their long, grueling, low-paying jobs now goes much further than it did 30 years ago. Kind of interesting that folks who complain about the evils of long hours for low pay hate the company that has done the most to allow those people to purchase more of what they need and want for less.

    Wal-Mart ponied up more money after Katrina than any liberal non-profit group or individual for aid. There charitable donations dwarf the charitable donations of most companies. And it's hardly like working in the Virginia coal mines at the turn of the 20th century. The reality is, any community that can support a Wal-Mart store is going to have jobs at companies that aren't Wal-Mart. Frankly, I see the help-wanted signs and ads for retail stores around the area all the time. If those folks don't want to work at Wal-Mart, they don't have to.

    Yes, Wal-Mart put "mom and pop" shops that charged more and offered less out of business. That is unfortunate, but if those shops had found a way to lower their prices or offer better service or otherwise attract customers, they'd still be in business. It's not Wal-Mart's fault that they could only stay in business when there was no real competition. When, in essense, they enjoyed a mom-n-pop monopoly. When the little local monopoly was broken, they couldn't stay in business. That is sad. However, within a mile of the Wal-Mart down the street, I count no less than 50 retail and franchise businesses, and most of those benefit from the traffic that Wal-Mart brings them. So that Wal-Mart is evil for the hundreds of people it employess (at that one location) and the 50 businesses and the hundreds of employess at those businesses that exist based on the Wal-Mart traffic.

    It'd make more sense to be irked at Wal-Mart for the stores it closes. I've seen a couple of locations where Wal-Mart pulled out (usually because they built a Super Wal-Mart within five or six miles), and all the little mom-n-pop shops that had surrounded the Wal-Mart, the franchises, the restaurants--almost all of them went out of business without that Wal-Mart traffic.

    BTW, there are two major local grocery stores near the Wal-Mart down the street from me, and they are always packed. The Kroger's near the Wal-Mart had to double in size because of all the extra traffic they've been getting since the Super Target and Super Wal-Mart opened across the street.

    Folks who "don't get this love of the free market" are Utopians. Sure, there are disadantages working anywhere . . . not the least of which is you have to work rather than have fun. Almost nobody feels they are getting paid enough. Most people feel they have to work too hard. Many feel their hard work is not recognized. Anyone who has dealt with a corporate bureaucracy usually comes out feeling dirty.

    It's the "magical thinking" idea that there is a pure and better and perhaps perfect system (and, usually, that somehow the much more massive and instransigent government bureaucracy will run it or regulate it to perfection somehow) that causes this disconnect. There is no system where people are paid millions to do whatever they want with no obligations, responsibilities, accountability, trade-offs or compromises. They call it "work", and not "vacation" for a reason.
  • Kevin S. Willis
    I don't understand this love of the free-market.  Do you know what the free-market did for workers back in the beginning of the 20th century?  I'm sure they loved the free-market too.  It let them work dangerous jobs, for long and grueling hours at low pay. 

    That's the wrong way to look at it. At the beginning of any economy, there ain't much to work with. It's like pouring the foundation of house and then complaining about what a crappy house it is. That's not the house. It's just the beginning.
    The free market has either created every technical innovation you enjoy in life, or funded its development via tax-payer funded research grants, etc. Even then DARPA (thus, the free-market funding the government) when it created the Internet didn't bring it into your house--the free market did.

    But even the folks, at the very beginning, who worked grueling hours for low pay in poor pay had a choice--they could try and make it as gentlemen farmer and grow their own potatoes and live thusly. They chose not to. But, they were working with a certain understanding of what could be--and that was, many of their children did not have to work long hours at low pay. Some became doctors and lawyers and worked long hours for high pay! Some became shop keepers to sell goods to those working grueling jobs for low pay, and helped build the local economy, which helped fund schools and roads for the children of those workers to get more than a 4th grade education and get a better job in the free market. In the end, in the free market, those hours became shorter and the pay became higher. Not as high as being a lawyer or a doctor, but much higher than at the outset. Because of the free market (and the unions, via collective bargaining). Unions may not be ideal in a utopian free market, but even so, the unions would have nothing to negotiate with, and the companies would have had nothing more to give their employees in order to satisfy the unions, without the free market.

    You think the command economy of the Soviet Union--without any sort of free market at all--demanded few hours and rewarded workers handsomely? Those were dangerous jobs with frequent accidents and extremely poor pay under grueling conditions and there was no free market. A lack of free markets in an economy simply means that hours are long for everybody, pay is bad for everybody, conditions are horrible and jobs are dangerous for almost everybody, and nobody ever gets called on it and the media never covers it and nothing every changes because there are no additional resources and, frankly, very little positive change or innovation going on in a system that doesn't reward anybody for coming up with something new, doing things a little better, or even working harder and longer than other people.

    The cure for the backbreaking low-wage labor of the beginning of the industrial age was the free market. The free market didn't cause it--it fixed it.  Without the free market, you wouldn't be drinking a Starbucks coffee in the morning, you wouldn't have hardware stores or pharmacies down the street, if you were a diabetic you'd probably be dead, you certainly wouldn't have such broad access to information on the Internet, and you wouldn't worry about universal healthcare because "healthcare" would be a euphemism for what happened to you between you getting sick and you being dead.

    People who don't "get this love of the free-market" also don't get "this love for air". They are so submerged in and spoiled by the immense and incalculable benefits of free market economics that they are completely unaware of them. They don't even think of the clear gas that fills their lives and their lungs . . . until its gone. Then they might think about it.

    Sheesh. "I don't get this love of liberty". "I don't get this love of free speech." "What's the big deal about having legs and arms?"

    The education in this country is woefully lacking.
  • HOBOBOH
    ML Smith  ..


    You use the word "deserve" a lot.  That's fine and they do 'deserve" compensation.  Just don't think you can juxtapose "deserve" with "right".  They are not the same and do not carry the same meaning.  K?  Good.


    We have something already in place to help the returning vets.  It's called the G.I. Bill and has been up and running for some time now.  Surely you have heard of it.


    One cannot group vets in with the general population when it comes to insurance.  I think the reasons are self explanatory, no need to go into that.


    So, indeed, if you have problems with the G.I. Bill, you need to address that issue within its own framework, not universal health care.


    Hope this helps.


    out.
  • ML Smith
    In Response to all of you and Jarrod M. #10
    ML Smith

    Healthcare? Has anyone given even the slightest thought to the thousands of young Americans that return from Iraq damaged beyond repair? I have, and the picture is not pretty. 

    Jarrod M: You say, " A person does not have the right to transportation nor the right to a roof over their head." (you really ought to do something about your flip-flopping tense) Where in God's name did you get that idea? Are you telling us that we shouldn't provide for our veterans, either? 
    Jarrod, there is something that goes by the name "wisdom" and I think you need to incorporate some of it in your thinking. Why? Becauase wisdom is the only barrier left to us that separates mindless insensitivity from human compassion.  

    If healthcare is an issue, perhaps we should start with our veterans.

    Jarrod, they do desereve a roof over their heads, and much more. In case you forgot, they went to Iraq for you...at least that is what they were told.
    You want to put them out on the streets? Great. We need more double amputees wheeling themselves around 125th and Lex looking for dope. Oh, I'm sorry...you've never been there. Harlem is just some place you heard about, right? And the guys in the wheelchairs are just a bunch of filthy junkies, right? I'd like to see how you would handle the physical pain and the disenchantment that accompanies it. Wise up, Jarrod.  
    As a quality of intellect and experience, wisdom is perhaps the most invaluable asset any society can rely upon when its problems defy conventional solutions.

    For thousands of years, kings, pharos, and emperors sought the advice of elders and philosophers, yet they rarely received answers to their questions. What they did get, however, was perspective and universal truth. Sometimes, that was not enough. Many men of great wisdom were beheaded for failing to tell the king what he wanted to hear.
    Today, wisdom is viewed as little more than the contents of a fortune cookie. In America, we now have young and ambitious presidential advisors who know a great deal about political strategy, public opinion and speechwriting, but lack historical perspective and conscience. They can pitch a full nine innings of political storyboard without blinking. Unfortunately, concepts like universal truth and human compassion are foreign to them. It should come as no surprise, therefore, that we are continuing to fight a war that has already been lost; that our monetary system is no longer based upon sound economic principles; that our infrastructure is decaying exponentially in proportion to the gross negligence of those responsible and perhaps most tragically, that there is no longer any real evidence to support our position as a nation committed to the preservation of human rights and dignity.
    We were truly the greatest nation in the world at one time, and our status as such had little to do with military might or wealth. That is no longer true. How can I say this, you ask? Well, there are certainly enough signposts telling us we are going in the wrong direction. Some stand out.

    Great nations do not deceive their people, and they do not downplay the damage done to those who have fought their wars. Nor do they nickel and dime their needs. The needs are substantial. The deception is as old as war itself.

    4000+ and rising - that is the current death toll; but there are thousands more who’s lives have been insidiously ruined by psychological trauma, in a war unlike any other; a war being fought against an enemy that embraces the thing we fear most - death.
    “Suicide bombers are everywhere,” a returnee told me, “and when they blow, there’s not a thing you can do. How do you strike back at an enemy that is no longer there? It sucks the soldier out of you.”
    For many, it siphons more than that from them. They return psychologically damaged and unable to function. Their dreams and hopes for the future are gone - erased by unyielding stress and unspeakable horrors. For thousands of young men, the damage is irreversible.
    These soldiers, most of them kids, had hopes and dreams. You know; the white picket fence, the two beautiful daughters and maybe a boy they would take to ball games, and of course the lovely young woman they would marry and love…forever. Many of these boys carried photos in their wallets. Between firefights, they shared those photos and their dreams with the only friend they had, only to see him blown to bits the next day by an RPG.
    “It could get worse. One day, three of us were walking down a quiet street when a baby’s head landed at my feet. I looked up and saw a bearded man leaning out of a third floor window, smiling.”
    How do you fight that?
    The collective wisdom of the Bush administration is apparent in its response to the psychological damage done to these men who have fought for the lies they were told. The administration is not ignoring the problem - it is minimizing it. The coordinator of a VA facility in Texas is pressuring mental health clinicians to avoid diagnosing post traumatic stress disorders, because that diagnosis qualifies veterans for lifetime psychiatric care and eligibility for disability compensation. Oh yes, we are a great country, with the economic resources to finance wars and build space stations, but we will not care for our own people.
    The “lie” is not about the war. It is about this administration’s purported “humanitarian” principles; the ideals we were told we were fighting for in the first place. The contradiction is enormous. I don’t believe that it can be explained in rational terms, or any terms for that matter. Perhaps we should send George Bush and all of his advisors to Baghdad. Embed them with the troops for two or three months.

    It wouldn’t work. Lacking human compassion, it is unlikely that they would be traumatized by anything. And at least one of them would say, “Well sure, there were 12,000 suicide attempts by our veterans last year, but that’s not so bad when you compare it to the number of attempts for the entire population.” There is a stastical spin for everything.
    There is a bottom line for everything as well. The bottom line here is that this administration callously perpetuated a war that has incinerated the future for thousands of well intentioned young men, stealing their aspirations, hopes and dreams. For some, the photographs they carried are unrecognizable. For others, they are no longer colorful images of a life awaiting them - they are gray and distant memories of a fantasy they once held close to their hearts.
    The anger I harbored for the “lie” has been replaced with a sense of overwhelming sadness. Any one of these men could have been my son, or yours. Is there anything we wouldn’t do for those beautiful children we created and loved more than life itself?
    None of this is right! It never will be.
    ML Smith
  • Chris
    "You know what the beautiful thing about the free market is?  People can choose to work 12 hours a day in the mines -- or they can choose not to.  I say if someone's willing to do the job, let them do it.  Yeah, it does get gritty when someone's personal choices turn around and bite them in the face, but that is what life is about.  If we had a safety net against every mistake made -- or worse, brick walls preventing mistakes, then life would be far more empty than our current materialistic existence.
    The Wal Mart model is a point of contention for many, but the way I see it is that the slave labor they employ, again, is choosing to labor.  They can do that, or they can not work at all.  You'd probably be surprised at how few laborers in overseas factories wished they had never gotten their jobs.  As for how it bullies other companies, that, again, is the nature of life; survival of the fittest.  It's not pretty, and it's sad that mom and pop shops go out of business because of it, but Wal Mart isn't doing that.  The mom and pop shop's paying customers are doing it, because they want value and service, not mom and pop atmosphere. "
    Exactly. Workers choose where to work. Customers choose where to buy products. That's one of the benefits of a capitalistic society in that you have choice. I can choose to work at a big corporation or a small business. I can choose to buy at any store I want. With the internet, I can buy stuff online that would be $10 to $20 more at a retail store. The free market not only gives me many opportunities to work, but it ensures that I can get my product at a good price. Countries with larger governments involved in the economic sector (like ones in Europe) tend to have taxes, regulation and tarrifs all over the place, which restricts economic growth and drives the prices of products up (since it costs more to produce that product). Not a good thing for the working poor. If Obama has his way, we'll be in the exact same situation.
  • Reaper
    You know what the beautiful thing about the free market is?  People can choose to work 12 hours a day in the mines -- or they can choose not to.  I say if someone's willing to do the job, let them do it.  Yeah, it does get gritty when someone's personal choices turn around and bite them in the face, but that is what life is about.  If we had a safety net against every mistake made -- or worse, brick walls preventing mistakes, then life would be far more empty than our current materialistic existence.

    The Wal Mart model is a point of contention for many, but the way I see it is that the slave labor they employ, again, is choosing to labor.  They can do that, or they can not work at all.  You'd probably be surprised at how few laborers in overseas factories wished they had never gotten their jobs.  As for how it bullies other companies, that, again, is the nature of life; survival of the fittest.  It's not pretty, and it's sad that mom and pop shops go out of business because of it, but Wal Mart isn't doing that.  The mom and pop shop's paying customers are doing it, because they want value and service, not mom and pop atmosphere. 

    On health care, I submit that it is Medicare causing the problems in the first place.  If the free market was aloud to have its run of the health care sector without Medicare artificially controlling prices, then everything would become more affordable.  Yet again, there's the gritty reality that not everybody will be able to afford it, but it is our efforts to extend coverage to those people that are causing the problems in the first place (IMO).  Besides, if good minded people really want to help the uninsurable, they can start up a private fund raising group to aid them.  We don't need the government forcing us to be charitable.
  • Chris
    "I don't understand this love of the free-market.  Do you know what the free-market did for workers back in the beginning of the 20th century?  I'm sure they loved the free-market too.  It let them work dangerous jobs, for long and grueling hours at low pay.  It crushed any attempts to unionize whenever possible.  The same treatment is now occurring in other countries where we have now sent our manufacturing facilities.  I'm sorry, but that kind of treatment of workers is evil in my opinion.  It allows poor people to pay low prices for their goods while screwing over other poor people.  It is evil."

    Oh noes, the free market is so bad! Quick, let's get the government to regulate it!

    First of all, if you had even taken a macroeconomic class, you'd realize that a free market is the best solution to satisfy our demands. We demand a certain product or service and someone else produces it. If your working conditions suck, then go find another job or use your right to unionize. It's that simple. However, the problem with the big labor unions themselves is that they demand special treatment from the government, which in turn justs ends up punishing the business without giving anything to the worker.

    "I would love for you or Bush or Cheney to wake up as one of these low paid workers, working 12 or more hours a day, in a dangerous job that risks your life, low-pay, etc.  All these conditions which enable us to have cheap materialistic crap that we don't need from Wallmart that ends up thrown away and takes thousands of years to biodegrade.  Spend a year in the life of one of those workers and then tell me how evil regulation is.  Do you even care about the suffering of others required for that ridiculously cheap object?  I guess that is what makes me a "bleeding heart liberal," that I don't feel like other should suffer so I can have wealth."

    So? If you don't like what Wal-Mart produces, then don't shop there. Simple as that. But you must understand that forcing your way of life on other people is called communism and we know how well that worked for the Soviet Union, don't we? Now, if you have an idea for better bio-degradable products, then learn to sell your ideas.

    "Honestly, I think our materialism, which our entire culture is based on right now, along with our economy, is not healthy.  Stuff does not lead to happiness.  We use way more of the resources of the world than our fair share.  If China and India take up our model, with their large populations, we are going to have to find another planet to live on because there aren't enough resources for their populations to be like us.  It is selfish of us to continue this.   But that isn't really about healthcare..."

    Again, here's the "Our way of life is horrible, so we should go back to living in mud houses" excuse. My parents work and are able to provide food, clothing, shelter, and all of the other required items that are needed to live, plus a little extra. We take any opportunity to recycle, whether it's plastic bottles or old clothing that goes to the Salvation Army. That's the whole premise of being a conservative: To conserve. Ironically, it seems all of my liberal friends are the ones who indulge in mass materalistic consumption without conservation. I certainly hope that you're not one of them.


    "So, if socialized medicine is anti-American than I suppose the most American thing of all is going bankrupt over health care. "
    Yeah, like the government will do anything better. What's the national deficit again? Obama wants to add $100 billion upfront spending to it? Universal healthcare is going to be very costly and very mismanaged. At least my private insurer is there when I need it.
  • Stephanie
    If you think the Wallmart business model is an example of the beauty of capitalism, clearly you and I can never see eye to eye.  To me they are an example of what can go wrong in capitalism.  Screwing over the workers in all possible ways.  Becoming so large and powerful that they bully others  companies into letting them pay less for their products.

    I don't understand this love of the free-market.  Do you know what the free-market did for workers back in the beginning of the 20th century?  I'm sure they loved the free-market too.  It let them work dangerous jobs, for long and grueling hours at low pay.  It crushed any attempts to unionize whenever possible.  The same treatment is now occurring in other countries where we have now sent our manufacturing facilities.  I'm sorry, but that kind of treatment of workers is evil in my opinion.  It allows poor people to pay low prices for their goods while screwing over other poor people.  It is evil.

    I would love for you or Bush or Cheney to wake up as one of these low paid workers, working 12 or more hours a day, in a dangerous job that risks your life, low-pay, etc.  All these conditions which enable us to have cheap materialistic crap that we don't need from Wallmart that ends up thrown away and takes thousands of years to biodegrade.  Spend a year in the life of one of those workers and then tell me how evil regulation is.  Do you even care about the suffering of others required for that ridiculously cheap object?  I guess that is what makes me a "bleeding heart liberal," that I don't feel like other should suffer so I can have wealth.

    Honestly, I think our materialism, which our entire culture is based on right now, along with our economy, is not healthy.  Stuff does not lead to happiness.  We use way more of the resources of the world than our fair share.  If China and India take up our model, with their large populations, we are going to have to find another planet to live on because there aren't enough resources for their populations to be like us.  It is selfish of us to continue this.   But that isn't really about healthcare...

    So, if socialized medicine is anti-American than I suppose the most American thing of all is going bankrupt over health care.  And starting wars based on lies that lead to many dead on both sides.

    BTW, I came to this blog specifically looking to see if there was insane personal attacks going on, like I've seen on some other pages by conservative nut jobs.  I wanted to see if there are equally as many liberal whackos posting on your sites inflamatory posts.  Although I disagree with everything you say, at least you can say it in a coherent fashion and not attack me personally.  Thanks for reminding me that not all conservatives are like those nut jobs.
  • Reaper
    Steph, price gouging is the norm in times of crises when the need for aid outstrips our ability to oversee it.  This can be seen in any disaster area; contractor fraud, price gouging, etc, all occur.  It has nothing to do with the private sector vs. the government. 

    On the flip side, why are corporations like Wal Mart able to have both highly paid executives and low priced products?  If CEOs were such price hikers, then Wal Mart shouldn't be able to compete with mom and pop shops, because they have no CEOs to pay. 

    By the by, a few years ago my father got cancer.  He was unemployed and in college.  He got the best treatment available; he was flown to New York from Florida to see specialists on more than one occasion and he went through the whole gauntlet -- all on the government's dime.  He survived, and after finishing college and getting a job, he tried to see about repaying the medical bills the gov't incurred for him; however, they waived the fees. 

    This demonstrates two points: one good, and one bad.  Our current system WILL HELP YOU IF YOU ARE IN NEED.  If you are diagnosed with a life threatening illness, your government will not leave you wanting for aid.  If you break your arm, your ER won't turn you away if you can't produce an insurance card. 

    The bad point...the government pretty much doesn't care about making that money back from the source, and therein lies the problem.  It just sponges in all the debt and adjusts (i.e., raises) taxes to meet the burden.  Imagine this occurring with every child with a scraped knee; everybody who wants contacts instead of eye glasses; everybody who doesn't finish their course of antibiotics and just gets sick again and again.  The government will sponge that all in and raise everybody's taxes, whether they used the system, abused it, or haven't touched it at all.  There is no incentive to use it responsibly, so it will be hedonistically abused. 

    That is the problem here.  It is so fundamentally anti-American that the mere suggestion that we do it gives me pause (not to mention the fact that we're already doing things in that spirit already).  The government can help those in need, if they cannot help themselves.  But the government does not and should not help those with the means to help themselves -- even if it requires discipline on their part to do it.  To do otherwise invites abuse of the system; abuse invites both price increases and regulation; finally, regulation invites further price increases. 

    Just say no!
  • Stephanie
    Oh wow, it is too easy to get sucked into these evil internet discussion boards.  I should just avoid the internet.

    I have some questions. If the private sector is so much more efficient and less wasteful then why did we loose billions to private contractors in Iraq?
    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/01/05/cbsne...

    Also, as far as incentive for people to become Dr's is concerned, the current system is insane.  People should become Dr's to save lives and help people live healthier, not to make lots of $.  I think Dr's should not make so much more than teachers.  They are both serving the public in a very important way and should be well compensated, but not ridiculously.  In our current system, it is so hard to get into medical school that only the most competitive kids get in.  But do those kids always make the best Dr's?  I'm not so sure they do. 

    My Canadian friend loved her socialized health care.  No system is perfect, but I don't think so many people should be going bankrupt over health care.  I don't think that people in their 20's who choose not to get health insurance because it is so expensive should end up totally screwed if they get cancer or AIDS or some other terrible, expensive illness.  I have student health insurance.  If I got a terrible illness like that right now, I would be totally screwed.  If I was so sick that I had to drop out of school, then I wouldn't be able to get any insurance.  If I couldn't work I wouldn't be able to get insurance through work and I couldn't get private insurance with a pre-existing condition.  I know this sounds unlikely, but actually, our school has many people that sign up for just one class a semester so they can sign up for the health insurance, since it doesn't have a pre-existing condition clause like most places.  They end up costing our insurance the most.  And that, my friends, is why the cost of our student health insurance premiums have gone up drastically.  God I love the free market.  It just works miracles doesn't it!

    I cannot believe that someone in this forum suggested we take kids away from their parents and put them in orphanages.  So, you trust the government to raise kids but not for health care?  Please tell me you are not a pro-lifer.  Then you want to force her to have the baby, but then take the baby away from her once it is born.  That would be totally wrong in my book.
  • Reaper
    I imagine you're talking about the currently tax free benefits being taxed under McCain's plan, toe?  You forgot to mention that he's giving those same people $2,500 to $5,000 back.  Oops!  I'm sure it was a completely unintended oversight.
  • WadeHM
    What toe said is exactly why we need to keep government out of the health care business.
  • toe
    and ... this is too funny... according to the Wall Street Journal...
    mc cain's health care proposals have within it hidden tax increases
    that amount to well over a $3.6 TRILLION tax increase on middle class americans over 10 years... that's moolah out of your pockets, children.  go look it up for yourself... i am tired of doing your work.
  • Reaper
    David, you should take up dodge ball.
  • David W. Walters
    HoBo
    so yeah, lets mandate this......contract it out , if that's a fair assessment......
    but would you be willing to provide universal coverage in a free market system?
  • HOBOBOH
    The federal Governments JOB is to protect the people so that they can use their freedom in the capitalist economy to prosper.  it is not the JOB of Government to insure you.  


    By the way, we do expect excellence from our Govt.  That does not mean that they achieve it.  That does not mean we receive it.  We don't.  


    So why on G*Ds green earth do you believe a Govt. which runs red with everything it controls should now be in charge of the health industry.  Why should the Govt. be in charge of any industry?


    I'm tired of hearing this comparison shopping of health care with other countries (canada, germany, etc.).  There are too many differences in the economies of each respective country to compare health costs.  It's apples and oranges.  


    One pattern has emerged from all of the foreign GOVT. health systems.  They are in trouble and people cannot get quality health care in a timely manner.  Don't forget they don't have our tort laws.  


    In the end why should ANYONE be responsible for your health?  


    I've asked several times and am still waiting on ANY LIBERAL.


    Name a section of the GOVT. which is run anywhere near the efficiency of the private sector.  Take your time, think it out.


    When you come to your answer you will realize that Govt. control of health care will only compound the problem.  Control means power by the way.  The Govt. is eager to do this.  That is enough to tell me its wrong wrong wrong.




    out.
  • David W. Walters
    ".........what precedent our government has set that even suggests it'll keep health care costs down. "
    But shouldn't  the question be :  "Why can't we demand excellence in our government, i mean.......after all we are suppose to elect them?"
  • Reaper
    Do you drive a Dodge, David? 

    You know exactly what you've failed to answer: what precedent our government has set that even suggests it'll keep health care costs down.  I have no doubt that they'll start low, but eventually they'll start taking a few more cents out of our pay checks each fiscal year.  Before you know it, we're paying more than we are now for health care.
  • Kevin S. Willis
    Chris,

    The Universal Healthcare will be there for you. In 12 to 18 months. At the government authorized hospital, thirty miles away.

    What won't be there is your paycheck. That'll all be going to the government, to pay for the healthcare. So, unless you're on the take perpetrating healthcare fraud on the Universal Healthcare system (in some state run plans, like TennCare, outright fraud or service being provided to and paid for for people who shouldn't be elligible--out of staters, accounted for up to 50% of the outrageous expenditures which were, btw, about three times what they were predicted to be, three years after the program started). There are lots of things to look to Europe to emulate that would be better than socialized medicine. How about food irradiation? They've been doing that in Europe for over thirty years. But we can't do it here. How about nuclear energy? France gets up to 85% of their domestic electricity from nuclear energy, while the tax payers in America pay billions to mothball nuclear plants because Jane Fonda made that movie with Michael Douglas. But, no, we can't do nuclear energy, we can't irradiate our food (and our milk--milk stays good for six months! It can be kept unrefrigerated!) . . . but we should copy the outrageously expensive, slow degrading socialized medicine of Europe and Canada! BTW, Canada has a lot more liberal laws in regards to drilling and oil exploration in Canada . . . shouldn't we start emulating Canada there, too? Or do we want to be a 3rd world nation who swears of nuclear energy and won't drill for our own oil?

    I'm digressing, but it irks me how selective these "unfavorable" comparisons between the US, Canada and Europe always are. Most of the folks who want us to emulate Canada and France's healthcare have no interest in having us emulate their nuclear energy policy, or their policies regarding domestic oil exploration.

    BTW, Fairtax isn't gonna happen. And probably shouldn't. In presumes to much long-term good behavior on the part of government, and I don't see that happening. Easier to cut capital gains (oh, the domestic economic growth we're missing, if only we'd cut capital gains a few more points) and flatten our progressive taxation. I'd like to see the tax rates for the upper end come down considerably . . . cuz everytime those evil rich have money (and I'm not one of them, sadly), they seem to spend it on stuff and hire people to do things and the economy grows. And grows. And grows.
  • David W. Walters
    Chris, i guess we should have "privatized"Social Security a few years ago, huh? 
    But you are right about a sales tax bein' wrong, i'll grant you that. 
    But lemme get this straight.......you are for a strictly pay as you go health care plan?  That's what i get outta those 2 links
    And Reaper,
    Not sure what I've "dodged"  If your talking about how insurance companies are an artificial layer that adds costs to the Health care equation.  Yes, i'll say it again:
    A mandated system of health care that uses insurance companies is a mandated "windfall" for these companies.  They will build in those bloated C.E.O. salaries and all their accouterments into their operating budgets and charge the consumers who have to buy it(the health insurance).
    I'm not so sure that this is the least expensive way to go.
    The present system has those who have access to health insurance
    pay indirectly for those who have no health insurance and go to emergency rooms for treatment as well.
    I'm would like to see a system that addresses this two issues as a way to solve a more uniform care of ALL Americans.
  • Chris
    David,

    I often hear this argument from socialists and I'd like to say it again, "Just because Europe does it does not it's perfect for the US." Look at what's happened the social security mess. I'm 19 and it's not even guaranteed to be there when I'm older. If we decide to add MORE government spending, how will I know that universal heath care will always be there for me? In addition, Democrats have suggested that universal health care would be paid for  by a national sales tax on top of all of the other taxes. I support a Fair Tax, but I certainly don't want a sales tax combined with an income tax. That's just asking for trouble.

    Here are some links for you: http://life.firelace.com/2007/11/why-universal-...

    http://www.homelandstupidity.us/2007/03/02/univ...

    Regardless of what you think of greedy CEOs, they know how to run a business. A government cannot be run as a business and when it tries to, it ultimately fails.

    Oh, and ask the Germans how their cap-and-trade is working. I'm sure they're very happy paying a 30%-40% increase in their electric bill along with other tax increases. Oh yeah, and not every German is happy with where health care is going: http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,211734...
  • Reaper
    Dodging it again.  Is your position really that devoid of substance?  Even I thought there was a REASON people thought our incompetent government would be an improvement, but I guess I was wrong.
  • HOBOBOH
    Well, we can all hand over 70% of our paychecks and let the government take us from cradle to grave.  That'll work out just fine.




    out.
  • David W. Walters
    Wade.....
    "Again Dave, the government is not responsible for keeping us healthy, WE are."
    I s'pose your right.......we can choose to drop outta the western industrialized nations of the world and become a 3rd world nation.
    Just like those fire stations we used to NOT have when our nation was founded, the citizens find it is necessary, don't c'ha think?
    So i guess we should just remain 37th in the world..........

    "Although the French system faces many challenges, the World Health Organization rated it the best in the world in 2001 because of its universal coverage, responsive healthcare providers, patient and provider freedoms, and the health and longevity of the country's population. The United States ranked 37."
    http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opin...
  • WadeHM
    Why is it that I keep wanting to bang my head against the wall. Again Dave, the government is not responsible for keeping us healthy, WE are. Responsible government doesn't mean they are responsible for every aspect of our lives. It means they need to ACT responsibly in all that they do. Why all of a sudden is the government responsible for our health care when it has never been the responsibility of the government in the past?


    If the government fails to keep a nuclear plant from contaminating an area, then they are responsible for the health of those affected, but they are not responsible for the health of the entire nation. Only our safety and our liberty. We may not all have a solution to the health care problem, but we have provided more than enough evidence against government run socialized health care.


    From the Boston Globe, "Like all healthcare systems, the French confront ongoing problems. Today French reformers' number one priority is to move health insurance financing away from payroll and wage levies because they hamper employers' willingness to hire. Instead, France is turning toward broad taxes on earned and unearned income alike to pay for healthcare."


    Oops, there we go with the taxes thing again. Just like Canada, they are having financial problems and are looking to more taxes. They may have the number one rated system in the world, but they too are running out of money.


    Also about France, "France's state-subsidized medical system is considered liberal because doctors and dentists establish private practices, and patients, who are free to choose their own providers, are reimbursed by the state for up to 85% of medical costs. Hospital facilities, although greatly expanded since World War II, are still considered inadequate. Doctors tend to be concentrated in the cities and are in short supply in some rural areas. The death rate, life expectancy, and infant mortality rate are similar to those of other industrialized nations. As is true of most developed countries, the principal causes of death are cancer and cardiovascular diseases."


    Any model you look at no matter what country it is in has its issues, most government run ones have the issues of money, hospitals, and doctors.


    Dave, you only look at what is reported as good health systems, yet you refuse to research and see that while the reports are good in most of the media, when you get looking into them, there are problems, and the number one is funding. 


    From the National Coalition on Health Care, "French health care is among 
    the most expensive in the world.  France’s health care budget is the world’s third largest, accounting for 9.8% of GNP.  If spending continues at this rate, the health service may be 11 billion euros in debt by the end of 2004 and 70 billion euros in debt by the end of 2020."
  • David W. Walters
    The first improvement to our health care system(the government can provide)
    will be to provide UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE!
    ...........LIKE EVERY OTHER advanced wester nation.  What are we(The U.S.A.)
    .........a 3rd world nation?
    I can only speak of Germans........
    (i have lots of friends and relatives there).......they ALL laugh at our lack of universal health care,
    and what, pray tell does escalating racial tensions have to do with this argument?
    Remember those anti-health care ads back in the 90's?
    Wonder who paid for those?  Outraged citizens? 
    Probably some group with a profit motive, huh?
  • Reaper
    If there were calls for privatized medicine we wouldn't hear about it.  Have you heard about the myriad conservative backlashes in countries throughout Europe?  Have you heard about escalating racial tensions in France? 

    Have you heard about conservative bloggers being federally prosecuted in Great Britain for maintaining their websites? 

    Not everything makes it across the pond, Dave, and your continual failure to answer the question of how the government will improve our health care situation is now officially comical.
  • David W. Walters
    as bad as you'd like to portray health care in Europe and Canada,
    I wonder why, there is no public call in those countries to emulate our system of "Health Care".
    There's gotta be a reason........i wonder what it is?
  • Kevin S. Willis
    I had a follow-up, but it got flagged for spam--I think because I had too many links to other sites regarding examples of the numerous failures of socialized medicine.

    Or the future we have to look forward to, with flea infestations in the ICU and rats overrunning the maternity ward, ala some of the hospitals in Britain's national healthcare system. Or 9 month waits for MRIs in Canada. And a link to Ronald Reagan Speaks out Against Socialized medicine . . . I would recommend the googling of that, for anybody interest in an eloquent argument against Socialized Medicine from Ronaldus Magnus himself.

    Hey, that'd be real good for a Reagan-Democrat.

    :)
  • David W. Walters
    Kevin.......if it wasn't so sad, i'd laugh.
    But i'm not
  • Kevin S. Willis
    David writes:


    There are 2 kinds of republicans:
    1.  the rich
    2.  the suckers
    Which one are you?

    Heck, everyone can play at that game.

    There are two kinds of Democrats:

    1. The super-wealthy elitists with one set of standard for themselves and another for everybody else--they won't be using government-sponsored, DMV healthcare . . . unless it's a completely different program unavailable to the average American.

    2. The folks conned in to thinking the Democrats are actually trying to do something to help them, and not just expand and entrench their own political power.
  • Reaper
    So you're not going to explain how the government will turn ample precedent on its head and run an efficient, quick and low cost health care system?  Suit yourself...
  • David W. Walters
    Wade;
    My God, what world am i living in?
    It appears to be a third WORLD, second rate nation........but not the one i know we can be.
    So, you want a model for this once great nation to follow(Health care,since our own screw'd up model is universally described as a failure)?
    Instead of Canada.........why not France?
    And certainly it would have been easier to fund before that Bush Brat took the White House almost 8 yrs ago........and wasted trillions of dollars and 4,000+ lives in his "cool" adventure.
    No, health care isn't a right. It is taken for granted in ALL first world nations of this world as a responsibility.......like having a fire department down the road.  I suppose that is what is meant by the term "Responsible Government"!
  • WadeHM
    "the government has a responsibility to insure that ALL of our citizens are provided with an affordable method of having their health care needs met."


    They do? Really? Where is that a law? Where is that in the Constitution? The government does not have that responsibility at all. If they have that responsibility, as you put it, then we should not have to pay a single cent for health care through taxes or any others means, period. 


    Health care is a benefit, not a right. Having hospitals is a benefit not a right. Having a fire department is a benefit not a right. Did you know that legally, the community you reside in does NOT have to provide you with fire protection? Did you know that the community you reside in does not have to provide you with medical emergency services? They don't have to provide you with water, electricity, roads, or any other infrastructure.


    The reason these services are there because it is beneficial to a community to provide those services. Those all are benefits, not rights. The communities are not obligated to provide anything. If they did, all that would be free, we would not have to pay one cent in tax for the services we receive if that were government responsibility.


    That is the utopia that the socialists longed for, but is impossible to achieve without taxing us to death. The only rights we have are in the three greatest papers ever written, the Declaration of Independence, The Constitution, and the Bill of Rights.


    Life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness. The government is responsible for protecting us and our freedoms, they are not responsible for ensuring that we all have health care. Period. Health care is a benefit, that is why it is mostly run by private enterprises and why most hospitals are private.


    The majority of government run hospitals provide service that is less than adequate compared to private hospitals and they always run in the red. Even these government owned hospitals are a benefit that you are taxed for.


    If all health care were government run, the government would bleed more money than they are to Iraq every year, and we would be taxed at a minimum of 45% of our wages to make it work here, and there is still no guarantee that it would be a well run program. And look at all the illegal aliens we would be paying for. ALL 12,000,000 of them, out of my pocket and yours.


    Look at Canada again. Their system is out of money, they are laying off staff and shutting down hospitals, and eliminating services and their ONLY option to the solution is to make the people pay more.


    My God, what world are you living in?
  • David W. Walters
    Wade,
    "It has nothing to with protecting anybody's economic interests. It is about preventing the government from taking control of our health care and making the process of getting health care harder and making the paperwork harder to follow, fill out etc."

    I hear you loud and clear.....but in some things like health care, the government has a responsibility to insure that ALL of our citizens are provided with an affordable method of having their health care needs met.  Why must the most advanced nation rate so low in areas such as infant mortality and life span?  No, the magic wand of totally unencumbered free enterprise does not work, unless there is an entity to ensure compliance.
    Prior to my early retirement my job was to ensure compliance to government contracts.......i was a highway construction engineer.  The City of Raleigh hired me to make sure the roadway was built to specification.  Yes, there was lots of paperwork, but without me and others like me, the contractors would cheat.  Why would they cheat?
    Because it was profitable to cheat!  That is what responsible government is for.....
  • WadeHM
    @ David,


    You said, "In this current health care debate, both democrat's&republican's proposals seem to be more concerned with protecting various economic interests than with saving people’s lives"


    It has nothing to with protecting anybody's economic interests. It is about preventing the government from taking control of our health care and making the process of getting health care harder and making the paperwork harder to follow, fill out etc. I don't know how many more times I can pound this into your head before you get it. Government control WILL add to the cost, WILL slow down the process, and WILL make it harder to get health care.


    If I could I'd send you copies of the federal government's Incident Command System, National Incident Management System, and National Response Plan. All three are ridiculously bloated systems that the feds introduced after 9-11 and have made it harder to manage a national disaster, have made it harder to apply for disaster funding, have made it harder to take care of disaster areas appropriately. Just look at the response to Hurricane Katrina.


    Now imagine, the feds running health care this way. Not so hard, they will. Everything they come up with is over managed and goes over budget. The feds never see that coming yet everything they do always cost us more than the feds initially said it would, and if we don't let them raise our taxes to add more money to it, the fed programs get ignored and swept under the rug.


    When is the last time you heard anything about "No Child Left Behind"
  • David W. Walters
    Reaper.......a CEO doesn't have his own battalions of paper pushers?  At least  the electorate would have SOME say in a more government controlled system, where as ONLY the shareholders have similar influence.  This is a fallacy of logic?  HeHeHe, no it is an observation on our failed health care system.  Many seem to think that profit is ALWAYS the answer.  I just think it is only sometimes an answer.......so,
    Please don't feel sorry for me(or seem to).  I may not have your education, but i'm certainly not stupid.
  • Reaper
    Wow, diluted postage doth I see.  The issue that David doesn't seem to have the mental facilities to comprehend is that the government will be everything the insurance companies are and more.  Where insurance companies have overpaid CEOs, the government will have battalions of paper pushers, earmarked health investigation commissions, and reams of Acts and Resolutions (also earmarked) with inspirational names like "Save the Children from Pain Act" which do nothing but add more paperwork and another layer of cost.  They'll implement ridiculous and nebulous standards that will require billions in retrofitting funds, if they even decide to foot the bill for it, which they may not do.  In that case, every hospital in America will have to close doors for health standard violations.  I could go on, but it's been said too many times already.

    David, if you can't get past that glaring fallacy in your logic or at least address it, then I pity you deeply.
  • David W. Walters
    "Our health care system is hampered by government intervention, and the solution is not more government intervention but less."
    " ..........loss and bankruptcy that make producers accountable to us."--from
    http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=4999

    By NO measure can any one other than an insurance exec. or a politician in his/hers pocket would think our current system has many redeeming qualities.  Loss&bankruptcy?  So a bottom line is going to provide the care and the regulations that allow a doctor to treat an illness?

    The present system is one run on a free market model....why would we want more of the same failed policies?  It's time to shop around, huh?
  • David W. Walters
    "..... is typical of Democrats and liberals like you, when faced with the truth you can't handle it......"
    Sorry 'bout that, this Reagan Democrat has watched for nearly 28 years to see if the free market system is gonna solve America's problems. My observations into this health care issue and other national problems is that the polarization of these issues into "socialism" or "free market solution" isn't going to solve any problems.
    In this current health care debate, both democrat's&republican's proposals seem to be more concerned with protecting various economic interests than with saving people’s lives.  Saving lives IS what health care SHOULD be all about.
    I'm not advocating a "Canadian Solution".....but Americans can be served well by looking to other nations that have more success than we presently have.  By most standards, the USA ranks low compared to other nations, even though we have the best technology and well trained health care professionals......and to me, that's NOT acceptable.  There are more than a few health care systems that can be analyzed in a critical way to find a solution to this screwed up situation that presently exists. 
    Some degree of federal or state regulation of health care providers is going to be a reality we all have to deal with.
  • Chris
    David, I can understand your frustration with the current system. However, if you put government in control, you add mountains of paperwork and instead of rich CEOs, you have rich lobbyists instead. At least the CEO is going to try to keep his company afloat, the lobbyist couldn't give a damn except what he's told to do.

    The problem is that people in the government don't have a degree for the medical field. They're politicians, which means they don't have a clue what they're talking about.

    Now David, you said that all these companies care about are profits. However, as others have stated, the high cost of health care is because of the government. They impose al kinds of regulation and laws which ends up driving up the cost for the consumer.

    http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=4999
  • WadeHM
    Finally, the third alternative to Canada's problem, a double tax. Not only would you pay the taxes you pay now, you would pay an additional tax for every dollar of health care you use. So if you actually use health care and have to pay a tax for the cost of actually using health care, you are being penalized an additional tax for being sick. This is a SICK tax. You have to PAY MORE if you are sick. You get penalized if you get sick.


    AND THESE IDEAS ARE FROM THE AFOREMENTIONED DOCTORS! 


    If you are sick you get PENALIZED and this is the plan these doctors support above all the others. They say this is the most fair. So if you need cancer treatment, you will wind up paying thousands of extra dollars in taxes for long term health care. If this goes through, Canadians will be penalized for getting sick, Canadians will get penalized for getting cancer not matter the cause.


    IS this what you want.


    God forbid and God help Canada and the US if this ever happens there or here.


    Think about it. A SICK tax. You get taxed more if you get sick.


    Now that is SICK. Think about the implications of that. The government would be decided who gets treated and who doesn't by whether you can pay taxes or not. The government will decide who lives and who dies by whether you can pay taxes or not. AND THIS IS BEING SUPPORTED BY DOCTORS!
  • WadeHM
    Oh by the way, the Canadian answer to the problem,


    1. "One alternative to privatization is to continue with the existing publicly funded system and finance it through a combination of enhanced federal and provincial general taxation."  In other words, raise taxes. Enhanced tax is a tax increase.


    2. "A more equitable alternative that would encourage more efficient use of health care resources would be to assess a contribution paid by individuals according to the health care benefits they receive." This alternative of course, leaves out the poor who would not be able to pay more as they receive more therefore they would not receive more because they cannot pay more. Despite what is said, that is not a more equitable alternative, again, the more money you have the more you get. The poor get left out in the cold again.


    This is a problem everywhere, not just in the US. There is no one easy solution, but having the government take over is NOT the solution.
  • WadeHM
    First off Dave, Your latest post is typical of Democrats and liberals like you, when faced with the truth you can't handle it and resort to name calling and become condescending. Name calling never wins the opponent. Obviously, you never participated in debate classes in high school or college. Debate class 101, never call your opponent names, it only turns them, and those who agree with them, off.


    Secondly,





    From CMAJ, Canada's leading medical journal,
     
    Health care funding has been curbed as a result of federal and provincial efforts to eliminate deficits. Under the guise of restructuring, governments have provided less money to the system. The results have been hospital closures, staff layoffs and diminished access to certain components of health care. To counter the impact of diminished funding, some physicians and commentators have called for substantial privatization of our health care system, suggesting that the system will fail to meet the needs of Canadians without an infusion of new financial resources.
     
    Michael Gordon, MD; Jack Mintz, PhD; Duanjie Chen, PhD
     
    So much for Canada's much admired UHC.  This is the truth that has been out there all along, you just don't see this in the liberal media because they are liars and don't want us to know the truth.
     
    I stated in my previous post that I think CEO pay is "exorbitant and outrageous", which means I disagree with their wages, but you chose to ignore that and act as if I feel it is okay. You even QUOTE me on that and then ignore the fact I stated their pay is outrageous. Yes, they do try to keep it affordable as they can while still filling their greedy pockets with green. If they didn't keep it affordable there would be no profits for their greed. I don't like the top men anymore than you do.


    When we have a universal health care plan and the government begins to run out of money to fund it, the government will do two things, they will raise our taxes again and again and they will do what I posted above, they will cut healthcare services, close hospitals, and layoff workers.


    What part of that do you not understand, sir.
  • David W. Walters
    There are 2 kinds of republicans:
    1.  the rich
    2.  the suckers
    Which one are you?
  • David W. Walters
    wade.....go back to #1.....
    "Some one explain to me WHY we must have an additional layer in the health industry(insurance companies)to add an additional cost to an expensive necessity?"
    No one has answered my question as to how can this artificial layer(the health insurance industry)is doing anything but costing the consumers more money.

    " You also keep ignoring the fact that health insurers, despite exorbitant and outrageous CEO pay and bonuses, try their best to keep costs down or fail to make a profit"

    Simply put, there is an overpriced suit with ALL his minion suits sitting in an office, with expense accounts, corporate jets..........
    ARE they working to keep this affordable for you and me?  Hell no, they are working on a bottom line that will bring them a bonus.
    It's real easy........CUT THE MIDDLE MAN OUT!
    That will save us money(the consumers)......
    Now how hard is that to fathom?
  • WadeHM
    @ David,


    DUDE, you keep changing what Reaper is stating. You said how can this be without added layers, Reaper said there is no added layers, then you come back and leave out added layers and are saying Reaper said NO layers when he actually said no added layers.


    You also keep ignoring the fact that health insurers, despite exorbitant and outrageous CEO pay and bonuses, try their best to keep costs down or fail to make a profit. Without profit there is no R & D and no innovation, and no improvements in healthcare. The government has no motivation to make healthcare profitable or break even, all they have to do is tax us more when they need to. Look at how social security is run!


    If the government takes over, there will be loads of layers of government regulations and paperwork added on. This government paperwork slows the money changing process down dramatically. Have you ever applied for a government loan or grant for any reason? I have, for my fire department. The paperwork and processing takes MONTHS to go through. The paperwork is vague and hard to understand and you have to find someone who has expertise in these areas to file the paperwork for you are it will never be right. You have to get your local congressperson involved to assist.


    Have you ever had to comply with government regulations that are vague.? I have. If you saw the paperwork needed to comply with the NFPA (National Fire Protection Association)  standards for fire departments you would understand. The volumes for the NFPA standards are THOUSANDS of pages thick. 


    Have you ever had to apply for disaster assistance from the federal government? The forms take weeks to fill out. In a disaster area you are mandated (if you want reimbursement for your community) to go out and take pictures of all the damage, catalog it all, estimate the damage to every home, business, car, tree, road, power line, etc. and submit all that to the government, and your estimates have to be right.


    The greatest example of this is New Orleans after being devastated by Hurricane Katrina. There are still areas of New Orleans not rebuilt because of the massive amounts of paperwork created by the government to get disaster assistance.


    DO YOU REALLY WANT THE GOVERNMENT TO RUN HEALTHCARE THIS WAY.
  • David W. Walters
    "At UnitedHealth Group Inc. of Minneapolis, the largest health insurer in the nation, CEO William McGuire earned $12 million in salary and bonuses in 2006, according to a database compiled by organized labor from federal records."

    http://www.missoulian.com/articles/2007/08/06/n...
    Such hard work keeping health costs down!
  • David W. Walters
    Reaper:  "Dude, we did answer it.  My first post, in fact.  There is no added layer."

    NO LAYER of Health Insurance?
    Really?
    ".....do you want insurance companies, for whom bureaucratic waste is counterproductive to their goals of profit, or the government, who can bury you in mounds of paperwork with impunity?"

    Insurance companies don't produce mounds of paperwork?
    Really?
    No, give me a system WITHOUT the highly paid CEO......

    Arthur F. Ryan, chairman, CEO and president of Prudential Insurance Co. of America received the highest compensation among insurance executives in 1999, making $7.189 million."
    ......OK, ten yrs ago, i wonder what the pay scale is today?

    http://www.insurancejournal.com/news/national/2...
  • Reaper
    Dude, we did answer it.  My first post, in fact.  There is no added layer.  At best, the government REPLACES insurance companies.  So you have to ask yourself...do you want insurance companies, for whom bureaucratic waste is counterproductive to their goals of profit, or the government, who can bury you in mounds of paperwork with impunity?
  • David W. Walters
    Again.....how does ADDING an additional layer(profit driven insurance companies)to the patient/health care equation going to bring costs down?
    No one has answered that yet.  Since the government sux so badly, perhaps we should privatize our military as well.
  • WadeHM
    Also from the same site,


    "Doctors would have three options for payment: fee-for-service, salaried positions in hospitals, and salaried positions within group practices or HMOs. Fees would be negotiated between a representative of the fee-for-service practitioners (such as the state medical society) and a state payment board. In most cases, government would serve as administrator, not employer."



    This is what stifles innovation and improvements in health care. This would not provide better health care, this would only provide on way to pay into the system.


    Government control would provide MORE paperwork, not less, more confusion, not less. On top of that, you also still have to comply with all the different agencies that regulate hospitals and healthcare. You still have to comply with state regulations and county level regulations, each varies by state and by county. Even if the feds would take over all regulations regarding healthcare so that the states have no say, you would still have the individual states differing ideas of healthcare provision to contend with. A take over by the feds would also violate the state's rights to govern themselves. Such a thing would be a violation of the constitution.


    What part of more government regulations being bad do the pro UHC puppets not understand. The feds can't regulate anything well now, how is it that people think the government can do health care better?
  • David W. Walters
    "a single-payer system would be setup such that one entity—a government run organization—would collect all health care fees, and pay out all health care costs. In the current US system, there are literally tens of thousands of different health care organizations—HMOs, billing agencies, etc. By having so many different payers of health care fees, there is an enormous amount of administrative waste generated in the system."
    from:  http://www.pnhp.org/facts/what_is_single_payer.php
  • WadeHM
    Shannon is correct on all points. As I have stated previously, I also work at a hospital and they receive less money from the government than in the past. All hospitals receive less. My hospital donates a lot of money to the uninsured and holds a fundraiser every year through a nationwide charity program called "Cover The Uninsured." Kind of to the point as what it is for. They also donate money to MI-Child, a Michigan program that assists parents with healthcare for their children.


    Government decisions have raised the cost of healthcare, period. All people have to do is spend some time researching and will find this to be true instead of throwing out unsubstantiated arguments that the government can do it better, cheaper, and cover everything.


    So, universal healthcare is going to do what for us now?
  • Reaper
    Can you even offer an explanation, David, of how the government will reduce the ills currently present in the system?  Because more than a few of us have explained how the opposite is true; government will only magnify any problems we're currently having, and they may have been the source of the problems in the first place!
  • Shannon
    I have been waiting a long time to answer all of the above questions.  Obviously only one of you has any healthcare knowledge.  Here goes:
    1.  State and Federal run healthcare has caused a spike in the cost of health because of the beauracy and regulations.  These rules at times prohibit health care agencies from giving cost effective health care. 
    2.  All state medicaid, schip, child health plus programs provide comprehensive health care for all children age 5 to 18 years of age at a cost more the paid to the health care facilities that provide them.  We all want the best doctors, nurses, equipment and facilities but I can assure you these programs do not add any cash flow to hospitals or physicians offices
    3.  Medicare has only been in exsitence since 1968 and already going broke.  They are reducing services that are covered, offer no preventative care and recently decided that all you men no longer need PSA test after  70.  The government  knows nothing about health care and need to get out of the business.
    4.  Health care is free in the USA if you are uninsured or under insured.  It requires health care facilities (usually high tech emergency rooms) to give care to any one who presents themselves.  This has created a need for all hospitals to develop a charity care program. Example:  $65,000.00 surgery cost a patient $250.00.  Which by the way they did not pay.
    Health care is a complex issue for this country but the first step is to get government out of it, reduce the costs, run the facilities better, and strongly encourage the insurance companies to invest in the region they cover and to offer comprehensive moderately priced plans. 
    No matter what trust me after 30+ years in healthcare we need a change and socializing it isn't even an option.
  • David W. Walters
    The current system whereby the Insurance companies control pricing IS invasive&overbearing.  It ALREADY forces down the quality of care by making medical decisions in place of the doctors.
    Like the military, some things need NOT be run with profit motives as the driving force.
  • Reaper
    How do you think it will work, David?  Doctors will just bill the government?  Patients will just walk in and get whatever care they need from whatever doctor they see fit? 

    There will be rampant oversight, and it will be invasive and overbearing.  The government will enforce strict price controls that will force down the quality of our care -- if not from the doctors, then from the tools they use and the medications they prescribe.
  • David W. Walters
    "Single payer health insurance is a system by which the health care expenditures of an entire population are paid for through one source – the Federal government or a subcontracting entity – using tax revenue from individuals and employers."
    http://www.nhchc.org/singlepayer.html
    instead of what we now have that IS a failure.
  • Kevin S. Willis
    David,

    That's exactly the one. Substituting an even more intransigent government bureaucracy for the already bloated for-profit insurance bureaucracy (that is also less accountable to the patient than they used to be, because the real customer of the insurance company is now the employer, not the individual beneficiary) does not seem like a good idea to me.

    I don't know that there is a good answer, but I'm pretty sure Universal Healthcare isn't it.
  • David W. Walters
    "The layer of bureaucracy between doctor and patient is part of the problem with healthcare today, and how is putting the usually thicker, fatter, slower and less-communicative bureaucracy of the government between patient and doctor going to help?"--Kevin Willis
    uuuh, this layer of bureaucracy run by profit motivated insurance companies?
    Is this this the one you are referring to?  The one that tells the doctor what procedures and meds he can prescribe?
  • Kevin S. Willis
    While I think the current insurance system is, if not broken, at least problematic . . .  I fail to see how putting the government in charge of our healthcare is going to make things any better for any body.

    The layer of bureaucracy between doctor and patient is part of the problem with healthcare today, and how is putting the usually thicker, fatter, slower and less-communicative bureaucracy of the government between patient and doctor going to help?

    I tend to believe that insurance should be for catastrophic healthcare needs, and that regular maintenance should be paid for out-of-pocket. But those days may be long past . . .

    I do know that the current system can still be very profitable for  insurance companies, hospitals, clinics, pharmaceutical companies and the makers of medical equipment and devices. While being a patient in such a system can be expensive and unpleasant, the system does create something that single-payer healthcare will almost certainly kill: innovation. So much of the innovation in the pharmaceutical world is bankrolled entirely by the United States, because we are one of the few markets they can actually make a profit in.

    If we want to see R&D in pharmaceuticals and medical equipment and surgical procedures drop like a rock, then, yes, sure. Have America go single-payer, or some other form of Universal Healthcare.

    You know, it amazes me that so many of the complaints about the cost of healthcare have to do with the expense of new drugs and procedures that, frankly, wouldn't be available if there wasn't the money to bankroll them. If we remove the profit motive from the healthcare industry--and almost any form of universal health coverage will do that, even if it isn't as insane and draconian as Hillary-care--then innovation stalls. Are MRI and PET scans expensive? Most systems of national healthcare have a great way of dealing with that . . . hospitals don't have PET scanners and few MRIs, meaning the waiting list for them can be years long. Generally, you just aren't going to get them.

    The irony here is that much of what people complain about regarding the expense of American healthcare simply won't be available under a national plan. Except for those who can pay for it out of pocket at private clinics, assuming the national healthcare plan doesn't include laws banning certain kinds of doctors or making private practice illegal . . . although, fortunately, that would be a very tough sell in America. Not that they won't try: take a look at some of the stuff they were trying to pull with Hillary-care.

    But I just can't imagine that anybody who has tried to file a claim with FEMA (nightmare, and, somehow, nothing actually ends up being covered 90% of the time . . . can't wait until that's applied to our national healthcare) or tried to apply for disability benefits via Social Security or ever been to the DMV or has had to navigate any government bureaucracy . . . I can't understand how people want their healthcare to be like that. And, if it's nationalized, it certainly will be. At least there is still some competition between doctors, hospitals, and insurance companies. Take what little market forces still exist in the healthcare industry today, and I'm pretty sure we'll have one of the worst healthcare systems in the world. We'll be going to England and Canada for their nationalized healthcare . . .

    Sheesh.
  • Reaper
    "Sir, this is form 23479234-A.  We need 23474234-A in order to verify your need for Tylenol.  Please go to our web site, fill it out, and sent it to our central office in DC along with forms 234D834R-100 through -400, which are the Tylenol Payment Verification forms.  We'll get back to you with your Prescription Clearance Form that you can give to your local pharmacist in 3 to 6 weeks.  What do you mean why does it take that long?  We are serving 300 million people!  You should be happy it doesn't take longer!
  • WadeHM
    Government regs., gag me. I am a 25 year veteran firefighter. Since 9-11 the government has heaped loads of regulations and training on the fire service that are a joke. We have to take these classes if we want money from the feds, money we were already promised, but now we have to jump through hoops to get that money.


    IS-100 through 900. Classes on Incident Command System, and the National Incident Management System, and the National Response Plan. Are are bloated works of bureaucracy. If you could see this stuff, you would realize why the government, local, state, and federal, couldn't deal with Hurricane Katrina and its aftermath.


    The feds took the fire service created Incident Command System and bloated it with some much unnecessary crap that the class, and all the others, now take weeks to train on and costs more money than the efficient, simple, and easy to understand way the fire service and forest service had it.


    The paperwork and forms are not only massive in numbers, they are hard to understand and follow. Even the certified instructors get confused and these people are usually the best the fire service has to offer. These guys teach classes at the National Fire Academy and they have a difficult time with this stuff.


    The books are huge. And I mean very, very, thick. As a fire service captain, I am required to take all these classes, at the expense of myself and the fire department.


    Government control of health care. Oh my Lord, I don't want to imagine. I can't conceive or comprehend what would happen to health care. It scares me. It really does.
  • Reaper
    SON OF A DIDDLY.  I had a whole response written up and I "failed the challenge."  Apparently 2 + 2 does not always equal 4.  I'll make this one short and sweet:

    Saddam's chemical weapons may not have been post-Gulf War, but they are breaches of UN resolutions.  He was told to disarm or render unusable his existing stockpiles.  He didn't; he just left them out too long, so to speak.  Still, it doesn't change the recently corroborated allegation that he exported his newer WMDs in anticipation of UN inspections and especially in lieu of mounting pressure to disarm from the US prior to the war. 

    On the article you posted, lots has been said against Bush.  Most of these allegations would easily be impeachable offenses, were they true.  However, the democratic controlled Congress won't do it, despite being very outspoken in their desire to.  This leads me to believe that there is no real evidence against him.  Just hearsay and virulent rage.  It doesn't make him innocent, but we just don't have access to the necessary items to make a final judgment at this point.

    On UHC, public schools are a prime example of why the government SHOULDN'T be in control of our health care.  They are a joke, and our educational rankings against the rest of the world prove it.  This is actually "our" main argument, which I've yet to see even argued against.  Our government can't run public schools.  Our government can't even hang on to our social security monies; that is their personal slush fund that they are paying off with IOU's.  They have mounted a 10 trillion dollar debt.  They charge us money to exist and bury us in paperwork in order to get that money.  This is not a government that should be doing ANYTHING except those things that require its scope -- interstate infrastructure and national defense/diplomacy. 

    Just think of the paper work you have to fill out to even interact with the government.  Just think of what the government does with the money we give it.  Why on earth should we be giving them more?  We should be campaigning for less!
  • pleasehelp
    Conservative cutie,


    No offense, but you could use an editor.  It would help your articles appear more convincing and they would probably be taken more seriously.  What is the point of the article?  The fact is our system is seriously flawed.  To defend our system and write off those uninsured because you think two-fifths of them are just kids fresh out of college who would rather do something else with their money is insane.  Or suggesting that uninsured children are uninsured due to their parents laziness or ignorance?  




    The question remains: why are people trying so hard to defend this system?  Why do you act as a foot-soldier to groups of people that would deny you healthcare if providing it meant a negative hit to their bottom-line?  This is the best we humans can do?




    Certain socialist elements can fit right in to a capitalist society.  Public schools, libraries, etc.  They already do.  Providing people with decent healthcare will help our society in ways unimaginable.  It will improve the lives of the poor and middle classes in countless ways, and in turn improve our society as a whole.  But, it will be less profitable for certain powerful people.  And these are precisely the reasons why the people with power, the people that you blindly (I hope) support, won't give our country a great healthcare system until it is demanded of them.  In order for that to happen people like you need to switch your allegiance on this issue.
  • pleasehelp
    Some UHC links:


    One concerning only self-proclaimed republicans:


    http://thehill.com/campaign-2008/poll-shows-man...



    Couple others, for now:


    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/03/01/opini...

    http://www.motherjones.com/commentary/columns/2...
  • pleasehelp
    Reaper, thank you for the continued discussion.  What is your response to these parts of the short article:



    "These are not the weapons that we went to war over," Democrat strategist Laura Schwartz responded. "It does not tell us that Saddam Husssein had an ongoing, active weapons program."
    One senior Defense Department official told Fox News the chemical weapons were not in useable conditions.
    "This does not reflect a capacity that was built up after 1991," the official said, adding the munitions "are not the WMDs this country and the rest of the world believed Iraq had, and not the WMDs for which this country went to war."
    That was an article I would have given to you in my defense, had I read it earlier.
    Here is a great article that came out TODAY, please give it a read and response:
    http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/08/05/...
  • Anya
    FYI, Medicare is for older Americans and people who have been on disability for a length of time.  Medicaid is for poor people.
  • WadeHM
    What is it that moves people to forget Operation Desert Storm, the first time we fought against Iraq, when WMDs were used against our soldiers and WMDs were found everywhere? And don't forget that the useless United Nations sanctioned Iraq for their role in invading Kuwait and also sanctioned them and did nothing for a decade allowing Saddam to get rid of his WMDs because he knew that sooner or later the UN and the US would be coming back into Iraq. 


    Also, Al-Qeada training camps were found in Iraq, which the liberal media still refuses to report because they cannot admit they were wrong on all counts regarding Al-Qeada and WMDs in Iraq.
  • Reaper
    pleasehelp: Have another read :P
    http://wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=50746

    It ain't much, but it's something, and if we haven't found any "big ones" only means that they very well may have shipped all of them into Syria.  I disagree on your assertion that they wouldn't use them; I'm of the mind that the enemy we fight doesn't mind death so long as they feel like they've taken a few enemies with them.  Case in point, suicide bombers.  It may well be that those with the influence to acquire a WMD value their own lives too much to use it, but they can still hand it off to their pawns who will happily march it into Gaza by hand if they must and let fly. 

    On UHC, do you have surveys or stats to back up your claim that the majority wants it?  I'm of the mind that most people don't give a hoot; there's a fringe (MY fringe) that feels that it will only magnify existing problems and then there's the fringe that thinks it'll solve them.  Everyone in between will just switch over from having their checks garnished into an insurance company to having them garnished into their income taxes, much like social security.  I am surprised that most doctors support it, though.  Maybe we should poll their secretaries instead.
  • pleasehelp
    Reaper, thank you for the link.  While it's possible that what Bordenkircher and the Iraqi prisoners said concerning wmd's could be true, it still amounts to nothing but hearsay (from a warmonger and prisoners, two groups of people with a track record of saying anything that will work to their benefit).  Why have we still not found ANY wmd's?  Why have we not gone into Syria to find these supposed wmd's?  Anyway, it's trivial.  A lot of countries have wmd's.  They don't use them because it would be the last thing they ever did.  All they are used for is protection, and/or to convince the scared that the best thing for them and their country to do is attack others with more conventional killing devices in order to supposedly prevent them from killing us (talk about a mental brick wall).  The government didn't screw up in Iraq.  They are doing exactly what they want to do.  How is that not obvious?


    The majority of the people want universal health care.  It has always been the case, but for some reason the liberal media doesn't talk about it... ever.  This government will never lay down and give the country universal health care.  And that is true because the small group of people that truly run this country (not limited to government figures) don't find it profitable.  End of story.
  • WadeHM
    Reaper,


    I made such a comment to the doctors against universal health care and they laughed. It appears that the doctors disagree on this issue for health reasons as well as political reasons. Some are convinced that UHC would help all Americans, others are convinced it won't. Then there is the political issue of a socialist  state, but only ONE doctor actually mentioned that part of the issue. It was baffling to say the least that all but one of them actually never thought of UHC as a step towards America becoming a socialist country.


    All want more affordable insurance for those who do have it but can barely afford it, or easier to access assistance for those who can't afford insurance. All the doctors did state that government regulations regarding UHC would be a pain to follow given how all the current regulations regarding health care are confusing now. In other words, it would be worse, harder to follow, and with more restrictions, but those who are for UHC still think it will be better for all of the uninsured even if the government has to hike takes to pay for it.


    As if we couldn't see that one coming. Yes, in order to pay for UHC, we must pay for it through higher taxes.
  • David W. Walters
    Reaper, (57) you ask'd about "Shocking the troops"........
    It is a reference to a story about a soldier getting shocked while showering:
    http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/...

    My point is, some things should be privatized....and then again, some things should NOT be privatized.
  • Reaper
    Great, now I want to know why those doctors think the government will be effective at controlling costs.
  • WadeHM
    I unofficially polled 10 doctors here at work, ranging in scope from general practitioner, ER doc, trauma doc, and neurosurgeons. Six of the 10 are for universal healthcare for varying reasons, the other four against for various reasons.


    This is par for the course it seems across the US among doctors and a couple of them referred me to this article;


    U.S. doctors support universal health care: survey
  • Reaper
    Shocking to the troops, how? 

    Blood knuckled logic = thinking and thinking hard about something.  Playing devil's advocate and seeing if your position really holds up.  I'm all for public health care, but I just cannot get the stated reasons for using it through that litmus test.  However, the positions that I and others have come up with "fit" perfectly. 

    PS: I'm playing devil's advocate with you on Iraq.  You believe that our government -- both Democratic and Republican -- screwed it up.  Royally.  On virtually every front imaginable.  Yet you're willing to hand your health over to them.  That's a mental brick wall for me; I can't see how anybody could get past it other than by simply avoiding it.
  • Conservative Cutie
    Goodness gracious and for the love of cupcakes, NO, I DON'T trust that Pickens man.  I think he's full of crazy.  


    But, I will concede If anyone was going to be invested in the future of energy for profit, and innovating the field to ensure energy would continue to be profitable, it would probably be him or someone like him.  The market isn't going to get it right all of the time, but we learn from our failures.  Corn ethanol sounded like a great idea until we tried to do it on a large scale, but at least we tried to do something.  It's not like we ignored the problem completely (maybe just mostly?).  You gotta give Captain Crazy credit for trying.
  • David W. Walters
    Reaper...
    Thanx for seeing the truth, hard as it is to swallow(about Iraq).
    My logic basically boils down to this:
    The health care system in this country is all F**k'd-up.  It is based upon having private health care  companies providing access to the hospital&doctor
    ........we have privatized companies operating in Iraq, doing what in past times was done by our troops, yet now much of this work is being contracted out.....the results have been shocking(literally)to our troops, yet you worry about a socialist health care system. 
    I have no script here, it is simply based off of my observations in my life.....so explain to me what "blood knuckled logic" is?

    Cutie........Do you really trust T.Boone Pickens?
  • Reaper
    Yet again you dodge the key point: the government CANNOT do what you want them to do.  They will screw it up just like they screwed up Iraq.

    You say you're a thinking man, but you have apparently completely failed to comprehend this very obvious discontinuity in your logic.  It's so glaring, in fact, that I've gotta give credit to the obviously very powerful democratic propaganda machine, because I can only hope that nobody would come to the conclusions your camp comes to through hard, blood knuckled logic.
  • David W. Walters
    Wade......Nazi is not used loosely.  Mom was a member of Hitler Jügen, Granddad is in this picture, he was a minor nazi offical:
    http://s219.photobucket.com/albums/cc206/11koss...
    beautiful town BTW.

    Reaper......i'll give credit where credit is due.  Iraq is and always has been the mother of all ClusterF**ks......it has adversely affected the army.  They are stretched breaking point because of mindless so-call'd experts and the stupid politicians who seek out their council to lend credence to their plans that are not even based on reality.
    The U.S. Army is a fine institution with lots of able people serving tirelessly.......what angers me is how they are used by members of your party, who talk lots of crap about supporting the troops while sending them on these missions and allowing the VA system to languish from lack of funding.
    Will we ever have a socialist health care system?  I doubt it.......if the republicans are good at anything, it is to have an effective nazi style propaganda apparatus.  Why didn't i ever fall for that crap?  I guess i'm a thinking man.
  • Conservative Cutie
    If nothing else, David, private insurance companies have capital to invest in innovation.  Whether or not they do, I don't know, mainly because I haven't the patience to find the names of their CEO's and see if i can find a google hit about them investing somewhere.  But it seems like it would be good business practice for insurance CEO's to be investing in health fields.  And they probably do some sort of grant program for funding research through the companies donations division (...At least I would if I were them).  If medical fields were all under government control there wouldn't be any way for anyone to invest in them, aside from asking their taxes be increased.


    ...Sort of like how T. Boone Pickens is investing all that money in energy, I'd imagine.  An energy man knows best about energy, a medical man knows best about medicine.  


    Anyway, I honestly doubt with a heavy heart that healthcare costs could be reduced much no matter what.  People who pay for insurance probably wouldn't pay any less a year in taxes for a state-run system than they do right now for medicare taxes and their insurance premium, no matter who gets elected and what plan gets passed.  I just prefer the market-regulated plan as a matter of preference for markets.


    And thanks!  I can't believe David just gave me two whole compliments.  Be still my heart :P
  • Reaper
    Strange, David.  I feel the same way when discussing pretty much anything with socialists.  You never seem to argue that the government has done anything right (look at Iraq, FFS), and yet you think they'll do all this extra stuff you want them to do right.
  • David W. Walters
    Pleasehelp......i'm just a tired old man, i ain't so smart or perhaps i'd be rich.
    Not much formal education, but i feel like the lil kid pointing @ the emperor, saying  "........but he has NO clothes!"
  • Reaper
    pleasehelp, I hate to even answer you in an article about health care, but have a read:
    http://wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageI...
  • WadeHM
    David,


    I really hate when people loosely use NAZI all the time. My German mother and her parents escaped Nazi Germany because they were assisting Jews out of Germany to escape the death camps. To refer to any party as Nazis waters down what the Nazis were all about and really over exaggerates, or shows, your contempt for those who don't follow YOUR views lockstep. And it is a real insult to your mother. I would never call my mother that, even if she didn't see my way.
  • Reaper
    My first post addressed your question, Dave: government control wouldn't eliminate insurance companies; it would just replace them with an inane bureaucracy documenting every aspect of every hospital visit.  The people running this bureaucracy would be paid *VASTLY* more than your jet-flying CEO (not per capita, but as a collective), and they wouldn't be answerable to ANYBODY.  If an insurance company screws up, they answer to both the government and the free market.  If the government screws up, they put more money into the system and call it fixed.  Then our officials will win campaigns on platforms of health care reform.  They'll establish regulatory commission after regulatory commission which will add bureaucracy after bureaucracy full of well paid paper pushers who will never have any hope of being downsized. 

    In short, the private sector will easily win in the cost department, even from the get-go.  The disparity between the two will only grow with time.  Like I said, only a retard could possibly believe otherwise.
  • David W. Walters
    Cutie(like that name)......
    ".......How would that be any different from the person the government would pay to oversee the vast reaches of the state run healthcare system?  I bet they'd get paid an awful lot."

    We would have recourse to lower an excessive salary thru legislation, huh?

    "The company uses (at least some of) its profits to generate innovation."

    What kind of innovations are we talking about?  It's not like an insurance company is  actually producing anything(except profit)......return the profit to the people and outta the pockets of the CEO's.

    I still don't see what kind of competition is going to help out here, perhaps some, but i just don't see how it will amount to much.

    But overall, it was a well written article you put out today.....i have enjoy'd sparring with all these guys.
  • pleasehelp
    Jarrod:
    1. Saddam Hussein was in violation of 11 UN mandates. These Mandates where for the complete and unfettered inspections of his WMD weapon sites. Every time the inspectors where just about to find something he would kick them out the country.
    I would like to see some evidence explaining this claim.  Meanwhile, here are some links concerning weapons inspectors and their own specific thoughts on the issues: 
     

    http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0305-01...

    http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0721-02.htm


     
    2. America was attack un-provoked. Not only was she attacked, it was the Civilian population that was attacked. Say what you want about Imperial Japan, at least they attacked the military. No these bastereds attacked civilians.
    Of all the supposed hijackers, there was not one Iraqi.  Iraq is a country in the middle-east.  All middle-eastern countries are different.  PLEASE explain yourself regarding this comment that you made.
    3. Saddam Hussein was leading the world on that he had weapons of Mass destruction. Every one in Congress saw the same Intel that Bush saw on this, and that is why they voted to OK the war.
    Please provide evidence on your first point.  Also, keep in mind that Pakistan, Israel, and the US (among others) really do have WMD's.  The absolute truth is that these countries kill millions more innocent people than Saddam ever did.  That is a fact. You need to think about that when you're convincing yourself of America's loving and honorable motives.  Also, not every congressperson voted for the war.
    4. I will give you that the planners did not do a very good job of planning the aftermath of the war after removing Saddam from power. This did allow the Terrorist to come in and establish them selves.
    I agree.  We should have a discussion on why the "planners" didn't have a plan.  I would argue that it's quite obvious that they did have a plan.  You don't invade and occupy other countries under multiple false pretenses without a very good idea of what is going to happen.
    5. When Bush went on the Aircraft Carrier and Said that the Major fighting was over. He was talking about the war against Saddam’s Iraq. What followed after that was helping protect Iraq from the Terrorists organizations, and the internal warring organizations from taking power.
    This is pure desperation.  Do you know what I'm saying?  I just can't understand this dire need to defend and follow somebody who does nothing but act against your interests.  Why are you still supporting this idiocy?  David Walters is intelligent, he is clearly out for the good of the people, yet you choose to argue against him and defend a group of people that prove time and again that you are only important when you can be used for their interests. Insanity.
  • Conservative Cutie
    Think about it this way, David:


    A CEO is paid (albeit too much) to oversee the vast corporation, yeah?  How would that be any different from the person the government would pay to oversee the vast reaches of the state run healthcare system?  I bet they'd get paid an awful lot.


    The company uses (at least some of) its profits to generate innovation.  How would that be any different from the government funding research and innovation?


    The company is responsible to its shareholders, which is the same idea as the government being responsible to its own shareholders- the taxpayers.


    If anything  you would end up paying for useless things like endless government inspections of practices to make sure they were up to government standards and even more levels of go-betweens for the government.  Patients would still need some sort of an approval system for treatment to ensure doctors weren't ordering unnecessary treatments.  Anyone who has ever had a government job will tell you that getting even the littlest thing done or approved is a nightmare.  


    At least a private healthcare system would be motivated by competition.  A socialized health system wouldn't be motivated by anything because we'd all have no choice but to die or use its services.  Some people (whether you personally believe in it or not) have had great success with private cancer treatments that focus on diet and nutrition as opposed to drugs, something the government would probably never have spent research dollars on.  That's the kind of good the private market can do.  In a socialized system treatments like that wouldn't exist because they'd be practicing non-sanctioned treatment.
  • David W. Walters
    Jarrod.....
    Explain this Kool-aid shit.........is it like the electric kool-aid acid test?
    42 posts into this thing, ad my original question has not been answered:
    How can an addition layer be added to the health care system without adding an additional cost to the patient? 

    Wade i have to watch Fox when i go to check on my old former nazi mom who is now a republican.  Hope abounds, she will probably be around for the next election, but my brother and i will cancel her vote out.

    Reaper...."Public health care simply won't meet everybody's needs"
    Certainly not the CEO's of insurance companies.  Again, i see NO mass movement in Europe(they are democratic countries aren't they?)
    to mirror our system which adds and ADDITIONAL layer for the patient to pay for.
  • Conservative Cutie
    The main reason why health costs are so outrageous is that right now NOTHING is regulating them.  Think about it: the government is doing very, very little to control costs, and the market doesn't regulate prices because few people have any idea what healthcare costs.


    If you have insurance, like most Americans do, you more or less go to whoever you want for services and have no idea how much it costs.  If you knew using a pharmacy three blocks from yours could save you 50$ a month on your most expensive script would you change pharmacies?  You might if your plan includes a co-pay, but most people never bother to check because they don't worry about cost.  Your insurance covers what you need, no matter how much it costs.


    A great example of this is that University of Pittsburgh Medical Centers owns well over half the hospitals in Pittsburgh.  A standard emergency room visit at UPMC Oakland will run you 300$.  Two miles away at UPMC Shadyside the exact same visit with the exact same services costs 600$.  The market doesn't regulate prices because most people use whatever hospital is closest to where they are and will never see the bill.  It's the same with everyday things like blood tests- since the cost is invisible providers can charge whatever they want and no one will notice.  Even people without insurance don't tend to check prices because they feel like shopping around for the lowest cost is somehow taboo.  Personally, if I know I've got something silly like a sinus infection and I know I'm going to get the same script from any doctor, I'll go to the local health clinic because I'm a broke college student and want to save 10$ on my co-pay  rather than go to my usual private practice.  


    Essentially both candidates are proposing that the system be somehow regulated.  McCain wants to let the markets regulate and Obama wants the government to regulate.
  • David W. Walters
    "...let justice roll down like waters, and righteousness like an ever-flowing stream."  Amos5:24
  • David W. Walters
    But Chris, this is the wave if the future.......privatized military, aaah, blackwater comes to mind.  But back to socialized medicine.
    Again....there are Hospitals, there are patients. Add to the mix.......insurance companies.  Is it necessary(insurance companies?)
    We can:
    1.  Allow private, profit motivated companies to tell your doctor what level of treatment you'll receive.  Oh, the CEO flys around in a corporate jet!
    2.  The profit they siphon off comes from the consumer, which pays for this largess that seems to be costly and unnecessary....this difference could be funneled to the Doctor's, hospitals, and patients......
  • Reaper
    Eh, second paragraph is referring to Obama.  Proofreading is fun!
  • Reaper
    McClellan has already admitted to having lied about O'Reilly being fed talking points, and he explicitly stated in this admission that he didn't want to specify anybody, which means we don't know who got them and we don't know whether they used them.  Besides, you're awful willing to believe him, aren't you?  I guess you're using up all your cynicism on us so there's none left for him, eh?

    And I've seen...pretty much everybody using his middle name be they from the left, middle or right.  Back to the topic...

    It doesn't matter whether health care is a guaranteed right or not (it isn't); the question is how to deploy it so it meets the needs of as many people in as efficient a manner as possible.  Public health care simply won't meet everybody's needs.  For chrissake, have you heard the horror stories about Canadians having to come to the US to have their surgeries, both because of queues and quality?  Or did you hear them before you ran out of cynicism?
  • JarrodM
    David your reaching now,

    You know the funny thing is we are almost 40 post into this, and you have yet to establish your points on why Socialized health care is better. Your whole argument hinges on that you believe it is an entitlement. Common David, I really don't believe that you drink the Kool-Aid, I know that you are better at making an argument then this.
  • WadeHM
    If you don't like Fox why to you watch it everyday?


    Privatize the military? It probably would improve in some ways and the taxpayer wouldn't be burdened with outrageous prices that that military pays just because it is a government entity. Just like firefighting equipment, the cost automatically goes up because it is being sold to a government entity. Companies rip off the government daily and the government doesn't blink an eye. So the military at least would be run more efficiently financially because corporations look at costs and if someone is ripping them off, they just go to another vendor. The government meanwhile is locked in and doesn't really care that they pay thousands of dollars to ship two washers from one military base to another, until John Q. Public catches them paying these outrageous prices.
  • Chris
    "Wade, should the military also be privatized to ensure the service can be improved in a responsible manner?  WoW!  we could hire them out when not need'd to bring in extra tax money!  What a GREAT idea!(not)"

    No, that's a function of the government. Read the above comments more carefully. We're not suggesting that every single service be moved to the private sector, but if it doesn't need to be socialized, then leave it as private. Our government is so fiscally irresponsible, how could anyone trust them with anything? I've found elementary kids managing their piggy bank better than what the government does with its money.

    So while government healthcare may sound good, it has many pitfalls and just ends up with the government getting more control over our personal lives.
  • David W. Walters
    "....... they know that Fox won't spin what they say......"--Seriously
    A few months ago(i watch fox daily), Obama's name was referred to as Barrack Husein Obama constantly by most of the news readers on Fox.....
    a subtle smear to identify him as a jihadist. 
    Wade, should the military also be privatized to ensure the service can be improved in a responsible manner?  WoW!  we could hire them out when not need'd to bring in extra tax money!  What a GREAT idea!(not)
  • WadeHM
    David said, "with Scott McClellan's news that the present administration feeds talking points to Fox News and Rush Limbaugh......it seems as if we are heading toward a nazi like news apparatus already."

    They do this because they know that Fox won't spin what they say like the other MSM broadcasts do, because all the others lean left and want Obama elected.

    "why is it everything must be privatized to make a profit?" Because everything that the government runs, runs into the red. Profits in healthcare is good because that leaves them money to work with to improve their services. Without profit, no matter the service or the product, there is no way to improve service. Let me put it this way, if my fire department ran in the red every year, there would be no money beyond annual operating expenses (the budget) to purchase new equipment, hire new firefighters, expand training. The goal is not to spend ALL that annual budget (taxpayer money), but have some left over for emergencies that arise (like a fire truck out of warranty breaking down) and have some left over so that needed equipment can be replaced as it wears out, new technologies can be purchased, the service can be improved, and show the taxpayer that we are using their money in a responsible manner, and so that we don't have to ask the taxpayer for a tax hike when we run into the red.

    Profit ensures that there is money left for innovation, and for emergencies that are not covered by insurance or expired warranties, etc.
  • David W. Walters
    scenes from an Iraqi childhood?
    http://www.alternet.org/blogs/peek/91617
    No, we have no business there unless our business is to further the profits of some.......and the money saved could be put to better use here in the USA, starting with proper health care for our VETERANS.
  • David W. Walters
    with Scott McClellan's news that the present administration feeds talking points to Fox News and Rush Limbaugh......it seems as if we are heading toward a nazi like news apparatus already.
    Iraqi kids don't like American soldiers in their country is a bit like American kids not liking Red coats in their own, any many grew up just to shoot a few, huh?
    My read of the constitution doesn't exactly line up with yours, i guess.  Remember, "We the people....." or is it "We the corporate entities"?
  • JarrodM
    Here is another quick one for you David, I sure do hope that one of these Annologies will sink in for you. How about if we just take the media and make it ran by the Government. I mean There are so many conflicting views on everything, and there should not be all of this confussion. I mean I have a right to the facts, and should not be clouded with all of this opinion. Why does the news need to be commercialized?


    Sure sounds good on the surface. I mean you have a Government entity, that only allows the Truth to come out, that only allows Reports that are based in fact, that would be awsome. I mean there would be nothing left to argue about.

    You ever wonder why Children in Iraq think such awful things about American's. Such as we eat babies, and things like that. Because the people of Iraq only had one source of information.
  • JarrodM
    Because if we just decide that the Government should have the control, then we have changed from a democracy to ... I don't know Communism, or an Authoritative nation. Look no one should have that much power. You start allowing the Government to decide every little aspect of your life, you have just given Government power over you.

    If a person is this concerned about their health care, they should then take responsibility for it. It is insane to just accept, or believe that the Government is going to worry about these things for you.

    I do like how you are not responding to any of the Direct Statements. How would socializing health care improve it? That is the question I propose to you David. I look forward to reading your response when I get home from work.
  • David W. Walters
    "David David Daivd, where did the DI go wrong with you my man."
    i was highly thought of by my DI(Sgt. Hanks).....because, an infantry man has to think, lol!

    " Again you state that Health care is a right...."
    - it is a service for the the common good of the nation.  But this gets closer to my original question.......why is it everything must be privatized to make a profit?  Is the constitution and our government here simply to provide a frame work for business interests to thrive, or is it to provide for the people?
    The late, great Reagan did sooooo much to further the cause of privatization, but i am only questioning the application of that idea into areas it should not be applied.
    Doctor's refusing treatment?  That's crazy!  Why would a doctor refuse treatment to a patient........i thought they were supposed to treat all?
    It has to do with ethics, which seems to be lacking in many business operations, in their dutiful pursuit of profits(.......so it will maybe trickle-down on me?--I doubt it!)
  • JarrodM
    David David Daivd, where did the DI go wrong with you my man.

      Again you state that Health care is a right, and it is not. It is most definitely a service, a service that should be earned, and provided by industry, not government. I could make the case that Government should provide everything, if I just thought of everything as a right.

     Look maybe the Government should get into the business of paying Life Insurance. I mean no ones family should go with out. How is it fair that my kids should have to depend on just my wife, and her money if I die? Sounds to me like I should have a right to life insurance, weather I can afford it or not.

      David, it is a fact that in order for something to be provided it has to be produced. The most efficient, and cost effective way to produce said item, or service is in a competitive environment. When there is competition, it forces to opposing suppliers to 1. Provide a better service, and 2. provide it cheaper.
      Let me know what part of the Constitution, or the Bill of rights covers the right to free health care. Because you know what I will shut up right now and vote for Barack. if it was in there, but it is not. In fact speaking about Barack and our right granted to us by the documents I have mentioned, he has already tried to take the 2nd Amendment away from his home state, how long do you think it will be before he tries that little trick on the nation.
     
    Hey David, if you get your way, I have the perfect way that Barack can make sure everyone conforms. Before they are able to get health care, they must agree to an inspection of their homes so that the police can confiscate any weapons that might be present in them. Because that would help reduce the cost of health care, by reducing the number of weapons home owners have to defend them selves. So the next time they get robbed, they will either 1. be killed (no added cost to health care there), 2. Just let the robber take what they want (Nope nothing added to the cost their). Plus that would make sure that when Barack decided to tear up the constitution, that the people could not stand in his way.
    If you feel that strongly about this, and I would never stand in the way from a person following their dreams, why don’t you move to another Country. I mean if it is that bad here.
     
    Again I go back to the whole concept of if you want health care go out and earn it, you want something go out and earn it, don’t demand it, because it is not a right, your not entitled to it.
     
    LOL I just thought of something. Basically your saying that a person should be entitled to health care. So what if he goes into the Doctors office, and the Doctor refuses to treat him. Does he call the Health Care police to come and hold this Doctor down till he treats the guy? Better yet, I feel that I’m entitled to make sure that my truck is always working perfect, I think that Mechanics should be controlled by the Government to make sure that everyone vehicles are running efficiently. I mean this would help make sure everyone had transportation to get to their jobs. It would help lower the cost of fuel, because a vehicle with Mechanical issues is not as efficient. If I you don’t have to pay for your health care, then I should not have to pay for my truck care. Sounds fair and even to me.
  • David W. Walters
    Wade, be sure to ask only republican doctors, lol!
  • David W. Walters
    ".........Same thing here.  And you'd better have some substantial evidence when you suggest that the health care industry is somehow different"

    Some things shouldn't even be an industry, such as health care and the military, just to name 2.

    So, in that sense, NO, profit shouldn't figure in to the equation.  Profit has been add'd to the equation at the expense of the public, who demand a service, not motivation for profit.  This may seem a foreign concept to most republicans, but to many Americans they are wondering about this insane idea of health care for profit.  It(health care )is NOT a product, it IS a service that every citizen, rich or poor must have. 
    And Jarrod, i have already earned it.
  • WadeHM
    Well, I've arrived at work. I'll ask some of the doctors their opinions on the matter and post what THEY have to say later today.
  • Reaper
    No, your arguments are bullshit.

    Wow, that is much easier than sound, well reasoned arguments. 

    Anyways, hospitals do need to compete or else...everything we said would happen would happen.  Without competition -- or better stated as the pursuit of profits -- there is no incentive to improve or even maintain current levels of service.  You get paid whether you visit your patient once a day or 10 times a day, so why do the latter? 

    Why do you think the US steel industry fell decades behind under the protection of steel tariffs?  There was no incentive to improve, so they didn't.  Same thing here.  And you'd better have some substantial evidence when you suggest that the health care industry is somehow different, because I'll tell you right now that I don't buy it.
  • WadeHM
    David,

    Hospitals shouldn't compete? If there is no competition, there is no incentive to provide continually better care, better procedures, and better doctors. Because of competition the hospital I work in constantly looks for ways to improve its services to the public.

    If smokers should have to pay higher taxes so should alcoholics and anyone else who does anything that causes harm to their health that is perfectly legal in the eyes of the government.

    No incentive is not BS. Anytime you take away from anything and level the playing field, there is no incentive for increasing the quality of the product.

    As we know, once the government gets involved with regulating something, just complying with those regulations increases the costs. The medical field innovates for two reasons, 1. To provide a better product and service to the customer to improve their health and increase their lifespan, 2. To provide a better product than the competition so that the customer will use their product.

    Incentives and competition provides better quality of care than any the government can give. If you think that the government can do a better job, just look at the VA Hospital horror stories and how our vets are treated. This is how we would be treated.
  • JarrodM
    Smokers already pay a higher tax every time they purchase their product. Also it would not be an issue if they should be treated if they paid for their own health insurance. Hence they would have to shop around to find an insurance carrier that was willing to give them insurance to cover any related smoking illnesses. See David that is the advantage of having many options, you have options.

    And yes David it has been proven that Government ran programs takes away the incentive to productivity, and slows down progress. Maybe it is the root of all evil, but money also is a great motivator. If I showed you how investing into some sort of research was going to make you rich would you do it? If their is not benefit for making new drugs, because their is no money in it, because the government is just going to take it, and hand it out to everyone, then their is no motivation to invent new drugs, or new treatments.

    From one Paratrooper to another. Letting the Government run health care is like a cherry running with the wind all the way into the ground, because he did not want to have to hump it to the Turn-in-point.  It sounds like a great idea untill you make it back to ground, and burn into the stands or what ever vehicle the medics decided to park right there.

    David you sound like a resonable person, why would you rather not work for it, then have it given to you?
  • David W. Walters
    WoW!  where do you guys come up with this rubbish
    1.  I think you mean  "No competition" .....uuuuuh, hospitals shouldn't compete, they should serve the needs of the public.
    2.  Perhaps smokers would have to pay a higher tax, just as they should pay higher insurance rates.
    3.  No incentive.......seriously, that's bullshit.

    As a former paratrooper, i am quite comfprtable with the odds, thankyou.
  • JarrodM
    Yes David they have, it has been explained for you. You have convinced your self that Government ran health care is going to be better, and you ignore everyone elses facts. Let's try this again.

    1. There will be no compatition, every one will be stuck with what ever price the Government sets. This will be establish with the ammount of money the steal opps I mean take in taxes to pay for this. 1.5 Trillion according to Barack. Also since there is no compatition, there is no incentive to try and keep cost down. I work for a local Government when I'm not out chassing fires, trust me I have seeing the inificient employees of Government hard at work. Cost go up, you just hit the tax payers for more money.

    2. Government control. This means that if they decide that they don't want people to smoke, they will just refuse to treat smokers. Think this will not happen, it is already happening in other countries with this system.

    3. There will not be the incentive for people to go into the field of medician. Why work so hard to get into a field that pays so little. Hospitals will be forced into a price structure, no longer able to set prices based on operational cost. This means lower wages for doctors this means less doctors, and less quality of doctors.

    So tell me David, what has you so convinced that your health care is going to be so much better under socialized medican. Fell free to give TOE a call for some back up, I sure miss her and her wild views.
  • Reaper
    David, I'm trying to ween myself off of these internet arguments, but I've got to ask...how are insurance companies burdening the system?  If they didn't exist, our entire health care system would collapse; people wouldn't be able to pay for anything but the cheapest prescriptions, any doctor who lost a lawsuit would be completely and soundly ruined, and everything would grind to a halt. 

    One could make the argument that health care might be cheaper if insurance companies weren't enabling people to peruse the ever-costlier system, but again -- it is my belief that the government is at fault for rising health care costs in the first place, not insurance companies.
  • David W. Walters
    Right.....National defense,
    .......NO ONE in Iraq attacked or was getting ready to attack the USA.
    So we embarked on a half ass'd plan to invade......

    "I am very certain that this military engagement will not be very difficult."
    -John McCain  September 12, 2023

    with the support of McCain, it has turn'd into a COSTLY failure (so much for judgment here)

    But getting back to the discussion, no one yet has shown how paying lots of money to an insurance corporation will actually suit the needs of the American people.
  • JarrodM
    David,

       That is the Governments job, that is it's main purpose is to provide a national defense. I find it so hard to believe that you where in the Military before and you have such a lack of understanding.

    You and many of the liberals have falling right into the left wing nut jobs, and the media's trap. The have so soundly convinced you, that this war in Iraq is unjust, and illegal. let me break it down for you.

    1. Saddam Hussein was in violation of 11 UN mandates. These Mandates where for the complete and unfettered inspections of his WMD weapon sites. Every time the inspectors where just about to find something he would kick them out the country.

    2. America was attack un-provoked. Not only was she attacked, it was the Civilian population that was attacked. Say what you want about Imperial Japan, at least they attacked the military. No these bastereds attacked civilians.

    3. Saddam Hussein was leading the world on that he had weapons of Mass destruction. Every one in Congress saw the same Intel that Bush saw on this, and that is why they voted to OK the war.

    4. I will give you that the planners did not do a very good job of planning the aftermath of the war after removing Saddam from power. This did allow the Terrorist to come in and establish them selves.

    5. When Bush went on the Aircraft Carrier and Said that the Major fighting was over. He was talking about the war against Saddam’s Iraq. What followed after that was helping protect Iraq from the Terrorists organizations, and the internal warring organizations from taking power.

    See the difference between you and me, is that I understand the purpose of the Government that I have spent all of my adult life serving, and that I have fought in two conflicts to help protect. It's major role is to provide Protection from enemies so that the people of this country can continue to pursue happiness and enjoy freedom. You view this Government as a subjugator, that is designed to take from one group, and give to another group, and tell us how to live. I'm sorry we broke those chains when we told England that we would not longer beholden to a Monarchy.
     
    Everyone in this country has the ability to get healthcare, they just have to work for it. This is where that whole pursuit of happiness comes into play. If it makes you happy to have health care, then go out and pursue it.
  • David W. Walters
    'The problem is that these people do not think twice about it, because they know that the Government and the tax payers are going to take care of that child, and through that care, they are also going to be taken care of. "

    --same as starting starting expensive wars.......republicans have no problem with wasting taxpayers money foolishly, while the less fortunate have little real health care, unless they buy in to this sham health insurance industry.
  • JarrodM
    These people do not seem to agree with you david.

    angelfire.com/pa/sergeman/issues/healthcare/socialized.html
  • JarrodM
    is it right for companies to make a profit, UM yes, that is why they are companies. Again we are never going to agree on this because your have the premiss that Health Care is a RIGHT.  I say if health care is a right, then I say the Government should provide everyone with a home, a job, transportation....Oh wait that was already tried in Russia, and we all know how well that worked out.

     Look David the fact of the matter is that when you turn over your rights to include your medical care too one single source be it Government or 1 Corrportation, you are now stuck. If this entity decides that it is in the best intreast of the whole polulation that they stop carring for elderly patients because heck they are just old, there would be no way to stop it. You laugh I know you are laughing at this right now.

    But I have read stories where a patent was refussed care for a broken leg, because he was a smoker. They would not treat him untill he quit smoking. This is the direction that we are heading if we allow the Government to take over.

    I'm glad that your family enjoys their health coverage. I'm sure in all countries that have Socialized medican that their are a lot of people that find it just fantastic. But I know for a fact, that their are a lot of people that hate it and have had to pay the price because of it.
  • JarrodM
    @WadeHM

       I'm not saying that we just round up all of the children from poor families. Look I think that it is great for anyone to have a family. But lets define some real world responsibility. First off the greatest responsibility anyone can ever have is the care for another human life. So it stands to reason that before a person decides to have a family they should make sure that they are in a position to care for this life that they are bringing into the world. I'm sorry but if you are living in the projects collecting welfare, it is absolutely irresponsible to bring a child into this world.

    The problem is that these people do not think twice about it, because they know that the Government and the tax payers are going to take care of that child, and through that care, they are also going to be taken care of.  I don't like the idea of separating a child from their family, but look enough is enough. You have to draw a line, and when that line is crossed something has to be done. Their has to be consequences for making poor decisions, not free money.

    I have no problem with removing a child from a poor situation (including a parent who is in no position to properly care for this child). This does not mean that the parent should not have contact with the child, and should not be able to work to get the child back. But if the expectation is that we are going to have to pay for the care of these children because they are innocent and did not put them selves in this situation, then I say we remove them from the situation and take care of them.

    I'm 34 years old, been married for 10 years and don't have kids because my life is not in a position to have kids yet. I want to make sure that I can dedicate my self to taking care of this child. Dare I say it, that having a child is not a RIGHT it is a RESPONSIBILITY that should not be taken lightly.
  • David W. Walters
    "If you have not done so, you should really go and look up some web sites that detail the horror stories of socialized medican all over the world. The reason that a lot of countries are still using that system, is because they are stuck now. It is a road that once you go down, you can't backup from."

    Having many friends and relatives in Germany........not ONE of them advocates the American system, in fact they ALL laugh at it and wonder how we can be so stupid

    Is it a right for companies to make a profit could just as easily be asked.
  • JarrodM
    But david what you don't understand is that it is all interrelated. If a hospital is lossing money in one area, they are going to have to raise the cost of service in all areas.

    I can tell you where you are hung up on this issue David, and that is that you are under the assumption that Health care is right. I hate to tell you but it is not. It is a service, just like any other industry. A person does not have a right to transportation, nor a right to a roof over their head.

    Now before you start blasting me, this does not mean that we should not take steps to try and make sure that it is avaliable to everyone, but you can not just give it away for free. I'm sorry in this world people have to work for the things that they want. It is called the pursuit of happines.

    If you have not done so, you should really go and look up some web sites that detail the horror stories of socialized medican all over the world. The reason that a lot of countries are still using that system, is because they are stuck now. It is a road that once you go down, you can't backup from.
  • David W. Walters
    ALL you guys.......
    I'm talking about comprehensive health care, not emergency room treatment........
  • WadeHM
    What JarrodM said has a lot of good points. I have been a firefighter for 25 years and have worked in a hospital for 13. No matter what your economic status you will get medical service no matter what the situation. I have seen so many people who have no insurance and have no idea they can get Medicare. Others know they can get it, but are simply too lazy to sign up for it or just don't care to sign up because they know they don't have to pay for medical care regardless.


    This is why so many hospitals and emergency medical services are losing money, all the people who could have Medicare that simply don't have it, and add to that the fact that the government doesn't reimburse the hospitals and emergency medical services the amount they used to.


    The poor don't go to a doctor's office for simple medical issues because they WILL have to pay at some point. The poor use the hospital ER as their primary health care provider instead of a physician, even for something as common as a cold. And we pay for it.


    As far as JarrodM's statement about orphanages, I have to disagree. There is no law against irresponsibility and stupidity. Taking a child from someone just because they can't afford them is wrong. There are poor parents who make better parents than rich ones. When health issues are not taken care of, or abuse is present, then the state should look into taking the child, but not because of income level. When we do that, we all become Democrats and Socialists.


    Reaper said, "NOBODY can conform to the controls imposed by the governments. " Oh how true. If you are a hospital or emergency medical provider, you have to  hire somebody just to wade through the paperwork to get reimbursed for those who do have Medicare. This in itself adds to the cost, which in turned is passed on to the rest of us.


    Any way that you look at it, nearly everybody loses under any system.
  • David W. Walters
    Reaper.....
    " Besides, they're hardly the ones causing price increases. "--Really?
    "  If anything they keep prices down by advocating thrift on the part of healthcare providers."--So by costing the health care providers and consumers more......we mandate a layer of "out-sourced" money to provide a windfall for insurance companies.
    Yeah, they keep prices down by MANDATING treatment.  Such a fine model, i wonder why it isn't more widely use globally?
  • Reaper
    David, along your logic, the best question to ask is why we should put government between people and healthcare?  It is indisputable (except by retards) that government causes price increases in virtually every sector they try to regulate.  I'd go into detail, but I'd just be harping on that main point.

    To answer your question, though, the insurance industry exists for the same reasons that the lending industry exists.  People can't afford it themselves.  Yeah, you can argue that THE GOVERNMENT could pay for everything, but that would just create a cycle of ever-growing expense -- much like we're already seeing.  Insurance companies are, simply put, the alternative.  Besides, they're hardly the ones causing price increases.  If anything they keep prices down by advocating thrift on the part of healthcare providers. 

    The only thing keeping prices up are areas in which the government is involved: tort and regulation.  Tort is easy: doctors get sued, the insurance company has to pay $10 million for it, and it is then forced to pass the expense along to the people paying into that insurance company. 
    The solution?  Strict caps across the board (mainly in the amount a lawyer can make from it).  Regulation is also easy: obscene oversights of the pharmaceutical industry makes it impossible to innovate except for the richest companies.  If you can't pay your drug or hardware's way through the FDA, then you can't sell it.  Thus, everybody but the biggest gets shut down and we're left with a monopoly -- or worse, NOBODY can conform to the controls imposed by the governments.
  • David W. Walters
    again.......how does adding a highly paid ceo to the mix make health care cheaper or any better than could otherwise be expected if insurance companies were to be cut out of the mix and replaced by a system where everyone is tax'd and the system is run by the government?
    ........aaaah, yeah, this is a serious question.
  • JarrodM
    I know that I'm going to get blasted by the bleed heart liberals for this one but I don't care. Let me first say that I am an EMT, and I work with patients every day (Regardless of Economic situation). We provide services regardless if they have insurance or not, our services are free. Now it is another matter when this patient is transported by Ambulance, and then of course any medical care after that. I have seen it all, and many many people would be appalled at how some of these people treat medical service personnel. They act as if we are their to serve their ever whim. I suppose in a way that we are up to a point, but in the end, the majority of these patients will never pay a dime for services, rather the tax payers will be picking up the tab.

    Let get a few things straight. NO ONE IN THE US WILL EVER GO WITH OUT EMERGENCY MEDICAL CARE. You call we come, we don't ask about insurance, or current residence status we do our jobs.

    Like UC pointed out, if you are poor, the Government has already covered you, again by taking our money to pay for them. But I have to ask, if you are poor and you make the decision to bring a child in this world, and economically you can't afford it, why does it become the rest of societies responsibility? I know WHAT ABOUT THE CHILDREN. You know I care about kids, I realize that it is not their fault, and believe it or not their is a much simpler solution. It's called Orphanages. Yes that's right I said, if an adult is so careless, and reckless that they bring a child into this world that they can not take care of, rather then allowing this person to demand that everyone else pay for them and this child, I say that we separate the child from the problem. In an orphanage, the child will be given everything they need, food, health care and education. Maybe this will also give the child a chance at a life that they might not of had in their given situation.
    Now that we got that out of the way, something else that you should also note UC, are the mandates that the State Governments place on Health Insurance. A lot of states mandate things that must be in the premium rather then allowing the purchaser to choose what they want to be covered for. This drives up the cost for individuals paying for coverage they do not need.

    @ David Is that a serious question? You purchase health insurance, so that when you do have a catastrophic accident, you don't have to sell your house to pay for it.
  • David W. Walters
    chris......how exactly does adding this additional layer to the health care industry(insurance companies) make it better or cheaper?
    Seems to me it is merely a give away ........a kind of government mandated corporate welfare.
  • Chris
    I never really followed the reasoning behind universal health care. Health care sucks because the government got involved with it in the first place. If you want to lower the cost of health insurance, you must keep government as far away from it as possible.

    http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul339.html
  • dentist lexington ky
    How does the government makes the health care suck Chris? I don't see the idea of the government getting the health care bad as it is now.
  • David W. Walters
    Some one explain to me WHY we must have an additional layer in the health industry(insurance companies)to add an additional cost to an expensive necessity?
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