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Backwards Berkeley tells US. Marines to Leave!

January 31st, 2008 Urban Conservative

See, this is the kind of insane bulls#*! that I have to deal with every day living in the Bay Area.  I am a Marine, so I take this s#*@ personal!

The Berkeley City Council, which voted 6-3 Tuesday night to tell the U.S. Marines that its local recruiting station is not welcome in the city, and if recruiters choose to stay, they do so as uninvited and unwelcome intruders.

What makes it even more vile and disgusting is that they are officially encouraging left-wing lunatic group, Code Pink to impede the work of the Marines in the city by protesting in front of the recruiting station. The council voted 8-1 to give Code Pink a designated parking space in front of the recruiting station once a week for six months and a free sound permit for protesting once a week from noon to 4 p.m.

Can anyone imagine the justified public backlash if you substituted certain other groups/races/religions of people in place of Marines in the following quote by the mayor?

the Marines dont belong here, they shouldnt have come here, and they should leave…

Where in the hell is the ACLU for this one?

Lets not forget this is the same backward city that took the American flags off the back of their fire trucks right after 9/11, in fear of offending the local Cindy Sheehan types.

The Berkeley City Council and the liberal scum that live there seem to forget that it’s the Marines that helped combat genocide the genocide conducted by the Nazi regime; and also helped defend the US against attacks by the Japanese in WWII.

The Marines are more than heroes - they ensure the protection of every right that you and I take advantage of every day (voting, free speech, protest, etc. etc.); and this is how they are treated?

Berkeley scum! I have no other way to put it thats fit to print; just cowardly, dishonorable, ungrateful scum.

Technorati Tags: liberal, liberalism, anti war protest, anti war group, code pink, protest, Berkeley, Marine Corps, scum, berkeley marines blog, berkeley us marines, berkeley asks marines to leave

113 Responses to Backwards Berkeley tells US. Marines to Leave!

  1. bastards! I hope a levy breaks in Berkeley!

    January 31st, 2008 10:07 pm Jorge
  2. I also live in Berkeley, and these liberal maniacs drive me insane. I posted this message because I'm really concerned about the Republican nomination. Up until last week, I was a McCain supporter all the way. I mean, the man is clearly an American hero who shares my vision for the future of America. However, I recently read an article out of New Hampshire (I'll keep the newpaper's identity secret, because I sure as hell don't want to be sued for libel or some other BS) that an aide close to McCain's campaign left due to the recent discovery that McCain may have Alzheimer's disease. At first I thought, "what a bunch of liberal bullshit!" but then I paid close attention to the debate last night (1/30). I counted four times that McCain started to answer a question with an anecdotal story, but then completely seemed to completely forget the question and stopped at the end of his story with no connection back to the original question. They say that the most recent memories (i.e. short-term memory) is the first to go, but I am certainly no expert. I'm really concerned here. I thought McCain was the best candidate, but now I'm concerned that he may be somewhat senile (or becoming senile), and that leaves only Romney. I urge my fellow conservatives to consider this issue closely. Pay special attention to McCain's answers and see if you detect the same "spacey-ness" and forgetfullness I noticed. I've decided today to switch over to Romney, but with some regret. Of course McCain has a great history of serving our nation, but I don't want someone who can't remember the question asked of him just moments before running the country. What do you guys think?

    January 31st, 2008 11:13 pm Justin
  3. As someone who usually disagrees with almost all your post I'm afraid to say you've got it right this time. What in gods name is wrong with that council? I'd understand if they had a grievence with particular recruiting practices which they felt were too aggressive but the mere presence of a recruiting centre for a group whos aim is to protect the country shouldn't be spoken about by an arm of government (if if only local government) as unwelcome. I think you're rightly insulted. If the council have a problem with the fact marines will fight in Iraq or their "don't ask, don't tell" policy then they should direct their frustration towards someone in power who can deal with those things. Attempting to prevent recruitment does not help things. Signing up, is afterall, VOLUNTARY!

    February 1st, 2008 2:44 am Seán
  4. I also live in the Bay Area, and am also a former member of our nation's Armed Services, and I am extremely offended by the antics of these lunatic liberals. How dare they refer to the Marines, or any other branch for that matter, as unwanted or unwelcome! They should realize that if it wasn't for the valiant sacrifices by our men and women in uniform there would be none of the freedoms which are so taken for granted in California.

    These politicians claim their beef is not with the soldiers, but the agenda of the war in Iraq... Well, they're not really hurting the agenda, they're hurting the soldiers on the ground who will have to perform longer tours because of hampered recruiting efforts. It's the same as not giving the soldiers bullets, kevlar vests, or armored humvees; you're taking away their means to protect themselves. I take this sort of political posturing at the expense of our troops very personally.

    I myself am proud to have served in the military. I wasn't tricked into anything by recruiters, and I knew exactly what I was getting into. I felt that it was my civic duty to give something back to my country which had afforded me so many opportunities and freedoms. Our soldiers are the very best our society has to offer. They don't ask for anything in return for their courage and self-sacrifice. They should be honored, not scorned.

    Residents of Berkley should be ashamed to be associated with such a vile and idiotic political attack against our nation's soldiers.

    February 1st, 2008 8:55 am Jason
  5. I'd like to respond to Justin's comments before commenting on the Berkeley situation. Justin, I agree with your McCain observation. I believe he definitely has issues, not the least of which is his liberal positions on everything from illegal immigration to tax cuts. This man is a disgrace to the conservative movement! Mitt Romney may nt be a perfect conservative candidate, but he is the best we have. And Mike Huckabee needs to drop out of the race NOW so that his supporters can vote for Romney before McCain has so much momentum that he can't be stopped!

    Now for Berkeley, or Berzerkeley as it is called here in the bay area. This shouldn't surprise anyone, as this city is the home of the most radical left-wing lunatic people in the entire country! Communism is well represented in Berkeley. It makes me angry that any city would do this, but it really won't have any impact on Marine recruiting, unless it has a postive impact. I'm not sure I would even want to recruit any kids from Berkeley since most of their parents have already brainwashed them to hate their country. Smoking dope and wearing bell bottom jeans is just about all they can really relate to there. The only thing we should do with them is to 1) don't rescue them when radical islamists start blowing up their city, and 2) take away all federal funding that they currently receive for allowing recruiting in their city. And after we're done with Berkeley, we can drive across the bay bridge and do the same thing in San Francisco!

    February 1st, 2008 10:14 am DS
  6. Semper Fi
    uh,..thanks for protecting......our freedom make these decisions in a democratic way!
    Aren't we fighting to promote representative democracy? i say "we", because i too served "my country" (or was it the right for corporate greed to make obscene profits?)
    Abn all the way, Rangers lead the Way!............davidwwalters
    - Show quoted text -

    February 1st, 2008 10:42 am davidwwalters
  7. i'll give ya some publicity

    February 1st, 2008 11:42 am davidwwalters
    So what's your take on this.......i'd say BillO is the real scum

    February 1st, 2008 11:44 am davidwwalters
  9. This is my first post here, so I hope that I make it a good one. First I agree it is disgusting what the city council at Berkly is doing. But hey it is there right to act like morons. I agree with the politicials in DC, if they want to act like that, then take away there Federal funding. I have been serving my country for 16 years, and I have learned that yes indeed we are defending these people also.

    As far as Mccain, I don't think that he can be called a true conservative any more. I don't know about all this being senial. But hid views are not conservative views for the most part.

    David Walters, you are an idiot. Bill O'rilley was not denying that there where homeless vets. What he was showing is that the VA, and the Gonverment already pours billions into taking care of them. What he stated is that there are more beds for homelss vets, then there are homeless vets. So before you make your self look anymore like the libral idiot you are, get your facts straight. I'm sure with all the time that you have sitting on your but at home, collecting gonverment money, that you would be able to spend some of it getting the real facts.

    February 1st, 2008 2:00 pm JarrodM
  10. I just wanted to say one more thing as a general statement sorry if I'm offending anyone. But the problem with our country is that to many people have gone soft. Don't get me wrong I don't have a problem with self compasion, and for church's and other organizations doing what they have to to take care of others. But when the Government makes policy based on the tugging of heart strings, that is when we run in to trouble. Look it is simple. All Gonverment is suppose to do is keep the lights running, and make sure that we have a defense, and that the States are playing nice with each other. After that, it is the State and local gonverments that are suppose to set policy, and even then it should not be in a restrictive fashion. You should only get what you work for, and the government should not be obligated to make up for your lack of ability, and determination, Just because some one else figured out a way to make a buck, does not mean that everyone else that could not come up with thier own way should get a piece of it.

    I'm tired of hearing it is for the children, or the downtroden or the ..... what ever. While I was in Iraq, I got to met a lot of Bedwins(sp?). You would think that these people would be asking for anything and everything that they could get since there whole possesions, are a few goats, a camel, a tent, and 10 kids. But you know what these people where happy. They spent they day teaching there children, and doing what they had to do to survive. They where not asking for money and they where not asking for help. In fact they would offer anything and everything they owned to help out another person. They lived a hard life, and they made the best of it.

    Life it what you make of it, not what you can get the Goverment to take from others, to give to you. If this country does not start acting like grownups, the Depression of the 20's in going to be nothing.

    February 1st, 2008 2:18 pm JarrodM
  11. This action by the Berkeley City Council is reprehensible, unconscionable and irresponsible. The Berkeley City Council has voted to deny US Marines to recruit in their area, exposing the city and the council to more widespread ridicule. Berkeley City Council should receive a childish punishment for their immature actions.

    February 1st, 2008 4:50 pm joelhar
  12. What is wrong with allowing groups their right to free speech near a marine corps recruiting center........i mean, code pink girls aren't going to hurt the marines, are they?

    February 1st, 2008 5:21 pm davidwwalters
  13. I'm afraid that the Berkeley City Council's decision about the Marines is about what we've come to expect from the city. The only surprise for me was that it wasn't a more nearly unanimous vote.

    As weirdly self-destructive as the Berkeley council's decision is, I think that federal reactions - or, rather, lack of them - show how seriously America takes the idea of freedom. I harangued about this in "What a Country! Flower Children vs. the U.S. Marines."

    Thanks for this post: It's good to know that there are sane people in all parts of the country.

    February 1st, 2008 8:20 pm Norski
  14. Sean - glad to know you are finally coming to your senses! : )

    February 2nd, 2008 8:05 am Urban Conservative
  15. Jarrod, you're a great American! You said it all bro. David Walters, it's because of people like you and the ideals you embrace that will eventually bring down our nation if we don't get people in Washington who KNOW the truth, and will STOP this madness! I love all of you bleeding heart liberals who are always worried about the poor and down trodden. Why don't you actually do something about it and get all of your left wing lunatic friends involved in actally helping them!! There are enough left wing groups like code pink and billionaires like George Soros who could effectively end poverty in this country if they really wanted to. But that really isn't their objective. That's just a smokescreen. What they really want is to spread socialism and communism. Go out there on the streets and actually bring the homeless into YOUR home! Feed them and clothe them, and share the love of Jesus with them. Let them know that they can change their life if they really want to. I've done it many times David, and so have many of my christian brothers and sisters. Kind of ironic isn't it? Chrisitians actually try to do something about the problem while liberals like you just complain about it, and do everything you can to eliminate God from our society! There is a day of judgement coming for EVERY person David. What are you going to say when God asks you "Why should I allow you into heaven?" Just a thought.....

    February 2nd, 2008 8:20 am DS
  16. DS.......why wouldn't god let me in?:)

    February 2nd, 2008 9:04 am davidwwalters
  17. David, I didn't say He wouldn't. I asked you what your answer would be if He asked you the question. Do you have an answer?

    February 2nd, 2008 10:51 am DS
  18. DS........i have a bad habit of answering a question.........
    i'd say......"damn god! why in the hell are you sendin' me back?"
    But i am sure he has some mission in mind.........i mean, who are we to question god(but, i just did!)
    i just don't think god is petty, that's all........;)Dave!

    February 2nd, 2008 11:00 am davidwwalters
  19. Gee! i sound arrogant......must be the german in me.
    Maybe i'm a liberal to atone for my nazi grandfather lol

    February 2nd, 2008 11:03 am davidwwalters
  20. Dave, you're right about God not being "petty", but He is righteous! I don't think you will really answer Him that way Dave. Can you think about it for a little while and give me a serious answer? Or do you want to go ahead and admit that you don't believe in God? That's a perfectly acceptable answer Dave. And it might explain why you're so liberal.

    February 2nd, 2008 11:42 am DS
    god can be real easy goin once you Really get to know her/He?
    no, i am a liberal in atonement for my nazi grandfather, a real life war
    i'm an army brat .......lived in germany as a child, was usa Abn Ranger!
    mom?.......hard core republican i'm a liberal because that's what jesus would do!

    February 2nd, 2008 11:58 am davidwwalters
  22. Oh Hell an god talk all the time.......and i saw jesus(for real)in front of the courthouse when i got out of jail!
    You know what else he told me?
    " you suppose i came here to bring peace on earth?
    no, i tell you, on the contrary: Conflict!" Luke's Gospel 12:51?

    February 2nd, 2008 12:04 pm davidwwalters
  23. Dave,

    You sure do have a nack for taking things out of context twisting them and using them to fit your needs, just like the rest of the librals. Any way I did not come here to personnly attack any one,

    The bottom line is this, There are more jobs in the US then there are people. in fact there are so many Jobs that our friends to the South risk it all to come here illegally to get one of these jobs. So this is no need for the welfare system. I know what about the people who fall on hard times. Well let's see if you have a job to start with and you are fired, then there is 6 months worth of Unemployment that you get. Did you know that this is a program that is paid for by your employer. So there is no need for welfare except in extrem circumstances.

    Welfare was created during the Depression, where there was no jobs to be had, it was to keep the people feed rather then starving, because there where not jobs out there for them. It should have ended long ago. The same with taxes. The federal income tax was put into place for WWII to help pay for the war. During a time when people understood that their are extremist factions, like your relatives that want to do nothing more then destory the rest of us, and if we do not stand up to them, then we are turning a blind eye to evil, and that in it's self is sinfull.

    This world is not hard to figure out. You work hard, the goverment should do nothing more then make sure that your not getting cheated. Did you know that our justice system has two branches. The first is criminal, to punish those that commit crimes against society. the other side was for contract law. You break a contract that we have then the court steps in and fixes. Not for all of these lawsuites and BS that is going on. Our government is way to big, and it is going to blow up at the rate that it is going, because we are in a rapid moral decline, and some on that jokes about God the way that you do will be judged accordinly.

    so let's pu some context to your bible passage First what it is saying.

    Not Peace but Division (12:51)
    "Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division." (12:51)
    You'd think the Prince of Peace (Isaiah 9:6) would bring peace. And he will bring about the time when:

    "The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea" (Isaiah 11:6-9).
    But that comes later. We know that the Messiah must come first to deal with sins, and then later for judgment and a reign of peace in the New Heavens and New Earth where righteousness dwell.

    So what is being talked about is when God will pass judgment on the sinners, so that he can bring peace to heaven. Following is the whole Chapter in case you skimed over all of that to find your out of context statment. I and God would appreciate you reading and understanding the Bible before using it for your selfish purpose.

    Luke 12
    Warnings and Encouragements
    1Meanwhile, when a crowd of many thousands had gathered, so that they were trampling on one another, Jesus began to speak first to his disciples, saying: "Be on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. 2There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known. 3What you have said in the dark will be heard in the daylight, and what you have whispered in the ear in the inner rooms will be proclaimed from the roofs.

    4"I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. 5But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him. 6Are not five sparrows sold for two pennies[a]? Yet not one of them is forgotten by God. 7Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Don't be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.

    8"I tell you, whoever acknowledges me before men, the Son of Man will also acknowledge him before the angels of God. 9But he who disowns me before men will be disowned before the angels of God. 10And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.

    11"When you are brought before synagogues, rulers and authorities, do not worry about how you will defend yourselves or what you will say, 12for the Holy Spirit will teach you at that time what you should say."

    The Parable of the Rich Fool
    13Someone in the crowd said to him, "Teacher, tell my brother to divide the inheritance with me."

    14Jesus replied, "Man, who appointed me a judge or an arbiter between you?" 15Then he said to them, "Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; a man's life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions."

    16And he told them this parable: "The ground of a certain rich man produced a good crop. 17He thought to himself, 'What shall I do? I have no place to store my crops.'

    18"Then he said, 'This is what I'll do. I will tear down my barns and build bigger ones, and there I will store all my grain and my goods. 19And I'll say to myself, "You have plenty of good things laid up for many years. Take life easy; eat, drink and be merry." '

    20"But God said to him, 'You fool! This very night your life will be demanded from you. Then who will get what you have prepared for yourself?'

    21"This is how it will be with anyone who stores up things for himself but is not rich toward God."

    Do Not Worry
    22Then Jesus said to his disciples: "Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat; or about your body, what you will wear. 23Life is more than food, and the body more than clothes. 24Consider the ravens: They do not sow or reap, they have no storeroom or barn; yet God feeds them. And how much more valuable you are than birds! 25Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life[b]? 26Since you cannot do this very little thing, why do you worry about the rest?

    27"Consider how the lilies grow. They do not labor or spin. Yet I tell you, not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 28If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today, and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, how much more will he clothe you, O you of little faith! 29And do not set your heart on what you will eat or drink; do not worry about it. 30For the pagan world runs after all such things, and your Father knows that you need them. 31But seek his kingdom, and these things will be given to you as well.

    32"Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom. 33Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will not be exhausted, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys. 34For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

    35"Be dressed ready for service and keep your lamps burning, 36like men waiting for their master to return from a wedding banquet, so that when he comes and knocks they can immediately open the door for him. 37It will be good for those servants whose master finds them watching when he comes. I tell you the truth, he will dress himself to serve, will have them recline at the table and will come and wait on them. 38It will be good for those servants whose master finds them ready, even if he comes in the second or third watch of the night. 39But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what hour the thief was coming, he would not have let his house be broken into. 40You also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him."

    41Peter asked, "Lord, are you telling this parable to us, or to everyone?"

    42The Lord answered, "Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their food allowance at the proper time? 43It will be good for that servant whom the master finds doing so when he returns. 44I tell you the truth, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 45But suppose the servant says to himself, 'My master is taking a long time in coming,' and he then begins to beat the menservants and maidservants and to eat and drink and get drunk. 46The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.

    47"That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.

    Not Peace but Division
    49"I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! 50But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is completed! 51Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. 52From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three. 53They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law."

    Interpreting the Times
    54He said to the crowd: "When you see a cloud rising in the west, immediately you say, 'It's going to rain,' and it does. 55And when the south wind blows, you say, 'It's going to be hot,' and it is. 56Hypocrites! You know how to interpret the appearance of the earth and the sky. How is it that you don't know how to interpret this present time?

    57"Why don't you judge for yourselves what is right? 58As you are going with your adversary to the magistrate, try hard to be reconciled to him on the way, or he may drag you off to the judge, and the judge turn you over to the officer, and the officer throw you into prison. 59I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.[c]"

    February 2nd, 2008 2:36 pm JarrodM
  24. JarrodM says "Any way I did not come here to personnly attack any one,"

    You did however say "David Walters, you are an idiot"
    aswell as "So before you make your self look anymore like the libral idiot you are, get your facts straight. I'm sure with all the time that you have sitting on your but at home, collecting gonverment money, that you would be able to spend some of it getting the real facts."

    Now I dont necessarily agree with the taunting Dave was doing but he at least he is not claiming that he's not making personal attacks, whether you view them as such or not. You however, very obviously ARE.

    just for laughs....... let's reflect on this line "There are more jobs in the US then there are people". This man should run for office!

    I hate to rant but Showing the context of his quote= GOOD
    Adding a chunk of bible to the end= ANNOYING

    And back on topic... This type of action by a council does NOT warrant the cutting of federal funding. That would set a precent as to whether federal funding could be disengaged for purely POLITICAL reasons. If they're done nothing illegal or ultra vires then cutting funding would be a completely undemocractic act of oppression. Thus is the nature of democractic freedom imo. But as I've said earlier the very fact that the motion passed shows them to be fools.

    February 2nd, 2008 4:51 pm Seán
  25. Thanks Seán.....i left that address so we could discuss religion in another area......whole different topic........"We have more jobs than we have ............."yes, there are lots of leafs to be blown........lawns to be mowed maybe...........
    but america has hit the skids......and you can't blame the liberals for this one. The budget wasn't busted by was busted by war. When i was in the army, we had this piece of shit weapon called the Dragon.......and i had to jump outta that damn c-130 with was almost useless.......a 90mm recoiless rifle that the rangers used was perfect and a lot cheaper. But the Dragon was on our i had to carry that piece of shit around until i wasn't the cherry any more. i think the Dragon was made by Huges aircraft......but i could be wrong. Point is..........much of our bloated budget is for arms we neither can use or need, and the soldiers end up fighting in a war instigated by dimwits more interested in political payoffs and not the troops welfare.

    February 2nd, 2008 5:12 pm davidwwalters
  26. And i reread luke ch12..........and Jesus does tell us he brings conflict instead of peace, so maybe someone can tell me the verse where he tells his disciples to sell their garments and purchase weapons.......why do you suppose he'd tell them a thing like that.....BECAUSE he was a revolutionary i would guess, but i'm just a dumb liberal................whatta i know?

    February 3rd, 2008 6:22 am davidwwalters
  27. They are completely right in doing this. Have you even considered why they did it? They did it because institutions with discriminatory policies are not allowed in the area and the military does not allow gays to openly serve. They violate this policy and they are not immune to the consequences. Learn the whole story.

    February 3rd, 2008 7:59 am Justin
  28. Take the Marines out of there and place a target on Berkeley for Osamas next plane to hit. The city council of Berkeley should get the f*ck out of my country!

    February 3rd, 2008 12:12 pm D
  29. btw, faggots shouldn't serve in my military!

    February 3rd, 2008 12:12 pm D
  30. I noticed something extremely funny way up there in the comments, but have forgotten what it was due to all the religious mania.
    Ah yes, it was DS with the decision that those who said that wished to help others actually want to spread socialism and communism, and that they could end poverty easily enough if they actually did something.
    Firstly, which do you mean, socialism or communism? They are extremely different concepts. Secondly, those with enough money or influence to end poverty are very unlikely to be in favour of communism in particular, as they would be the ones who stand to lose most from it.
    Justin - thank you.

    February 3rd, 2008 12:27 pm Steph
  31. Steph,

    Glad I could bring some humor into your life! ;-} But you might want to check out what Wikipedia has to say about socialsm and communism. They're really NOT that different. And I think that most of the extreme left wing libs in our country would really like to see communism, but they know that even the most ignorant people in our society know that communism is bad. Therefore, it is much easier for them to push the socialism agenda because the poor (acutally lazy better describes them!) people are always looking for something for nothing. And, by the way, they're too ignorant and poor to care about losing anything. They don't care!


    Socialism refers to a broad array of ideologies and political movements with the goal of a socio-economic system in which property and the distribution of wealth are subject to control by the community.[1]. This control may be either direct—exercised through popular collectives such as workers' councils—or indirect—exercised on behalf of the people by the state. As an economic system, socialism is often characterized by state, worker, or community ownership of the means of production, goals which have been attributed to, and claimed by, a number of political parties and governments throughout history.

    The modern socialist movement largely originated in the late-19th century working class movement. In this period, the term 'socialism' was first used in connection with European social critics who criticized capitalism and private property. For Karl Marx, who helped establish and define the modern socialist movement, socialism would be the socioeconomic system that arises after the proletarian revolution, in which the means of production are owned collectively. This society would then progress into communism.

    Since the 19th century, socialists have not agreed on a common doctrine or program. Various adherents of socialist movements are split into differing and sometimes opposing branches, particularly between reformists and revolutionaries. Some socialists have championed the complete nationalization of the means of production, while social democrats have proposed selective nationalization of key industries within the framework of mixed economies. Some Marxists, including those inspired by the Soviet model of economic development, have advocated the creation of centrally planned economies directed by a state that owns all the means of production. Others, including Communists in Yugoslavia and Hungary in the 1970s and 1980s, Chinese Communists since the reform era, and some Western economists, have proposed various forms of market socialism, attempting to reconcile the presumed advantages of cooperative or state ownership of the means of production with letting market forces, rather than central planners, guide production and exchange.[2] Anarcho-syndicalists, Luxemburgists (such as those in the Socialist Party USA) and some elements of the United States New Left favor decentralized collective ownership in the form of cooperatives or workers' councils.

    February 3rd, 2008 12:48 pm DS
  32. Just happened to stumble into your site, I agree with some of the things you folks are saying here about Berkley I live in an area commutable to Portland Oregon and I have to drive through that city every day and see an ungrateful city pour out its ugly liberalism against all that it holy..
    "however" I don't agree with you folks that are saying millionaire boy Romney is who I really should be supporting Romney is fake and he is trying and may be successful at buying this election but he is a fake conservative and only says what is expedient for him..he says his dad marched with MLK...folks if you believe that a Mormon over forty years ago marched with MLK your high! this man is a fake.
    Stop believing the Bain Capital " Romney owned " radio stations and take an actual look at Huckabee, we are not going to vote for a flip flop master, you don't know how us real hard core conservatives think if you think Romney is our true candidate..quit trusting Rush with every politico thought process, I too listen to or at least used to listen to all of them and now they are selling you what exact candidate to vote for.
    As we all know a congressman with no true moral standing is nothing but a car salesman and you have been sold that Huckabee is that carsalesman you can't be further from the truth you want a real candidate that can talk to the folks at Berkley straight and let them know what kind of losers they are being, hire and elect a communicator and chief and as a bonus you get your whole paycheck to yourself and get the IRS out of your biz and that my friends is a true conservative.
    Stop punditry against Huckabee and start reading more than a couple talk radio talking points Romney has far more skeletons in his sweater around the Millionaire background than you are hearing about..
    you have one choice here folks it is Huckabee mark my words McCain can't stand up in a debate against Hillary machine and Romney will not get the support he won't trust me, many of us who are working at this know the dirty tricks that Romney has used he has outspent Huckabee at least 7 to one and the reason is his message is hard to swallow so it has to be oversold like a base model Hyundai with manual shift.
    I closing I will say I am a Veteran of 8 years I served as an Aircraft Mechanic along side the Marines in the 80's at Patrick AFB and Williams AFB I am proud of you all I believe the Marines are an outstanding outfit and make no judgment
    against them.
    please don't judge my beliefs that Romney is my religious guy that I need to support because he is not and my feelings are not alone on this, when I was active duty and after I got out I was working as a stand up comic and learned a lot about reading folks and crowds, and I know a joke when I see one.

    February 3rd, 2008 1:36 pm Bud
  33. to anyone here who feels that christianity has much if anything to do with one's political ideology: read Dostoevsky's Grand Inquisitor and get back to me.

    February 3rd, 2008 2:11 pm Paul K
  34. ".......Socialism refers to a broad array of ideologies and political movements with the goal of a socio-economic system in which property and the distribution of wealth are subject to control by the community......."
    Control by the community......key words here.
    What could they mean by that.....?
    Maybe like representative democracy?

    We've had 25 yrs. of "trick down economics" ain't workin' and we need something new. Yes i'm a liberal and proud of it.

    February 3rd, 2008 2:55 pm davidwwalters
  35. Paul K,

    Everyone has a "value system" that they use to govern themselves. Maybe your defitinition of religion is too restrictive. ;-} Aethism is as mucha religion as christianity. They just embrace different values, that's all. Don't think that your values don't impact your political ideology? Think again Paul! And our country was born and built on judeao christian values. So, again, if you don't like those values, why don't yo just leave? I don't see anyone begging all of you liberals to stay!

    February 3rd, 2008 4:38 pm DS
  36. And David,

    Again you try to play games with words, and twist them to fit your aetheistic views. Why don't you grow up, get a job, and stop believing everything you hear from the mainstream, left wing, liberal, lunatic media outlets. Take some time to really search the scriptures and repent while there is still time!

    February 3rd, 2008 4:45 pm DS
  37. Hi DS!
    from our friend Wikipedia:
    Religion is a set of beliefs and practices generally organized around supernatural and moral claims, and often codified as prayer, ritual, and religious law

    So how is atheism(against ALL theism) a religion if by definition it opposes supernatural claims in the first place?(as an aside you can e-mail me about Jesus as a [email protected])Thanks!

    February 3rd, 2008 4:48 pm davidwwalters
  38. Dave,

    Atheism was ruled a religion by the courts. "The Supreme Court has said a religion need not be based on a belief in the existence of a supreme being. In the 1961 case of Torcaso v. Watkins, the court described "secular humanism" as a religion. Like I said before, everyone believes in something! If not God, then what? It sounds to me like you are a secular humanist. You believe in yourself don't you Dave? Dave, only God can fill that hole in your heart. Trust Him today, and He will not disappoint you.


    Court rules atheism a religion
    Decides 1st Amendment protects prison inmate's right to start study group

    Posted: August 20, 2023
    1:00 a.m. Eastern

    © 2005

    A federal court of appeals ruled yesterday Wisconsin prison officials violated an inmate's rights because they did not treat atheism as a religion.
    "Atheism is [the inmate's] religion, and the group that he wanted to start was religious in nature even though it expressly rejects a belief in a supreme being," the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals said.

    The court decided the inmate's First Amendment rights were violated because the prison refused to allow him to create a study group for atheists.

    Brian Fahling, senior trial attorney for the American Family Association Center for Law & Policy, called the court's ruling "a sort of Alice in Wonderland jurisprudence."

    "Up is down, and atheism, the antithesis of religion, is religion," said Fahling.

    The Supreme Court has said a religion need not be based on a belief in the existence of a supreme being. In the 1961 case of Torcaso v. Watkins, the court described "secular humanism" as a religion.

    Fahling said today's ruling was "further evidence of the incoherence of Establishment Clause jurisprudence."

    "It is difficult not to be somewhat jaundiced about our courts when they take clauses especially designed to protect religion from the state and turn them on their head by giving protective cover to a belief system, that, by every known definition other than the courts' is not a religion, while simultaneously declaring public expressions of true religious faith to be prohibited," Fahling said.

    February 3rd, 2008 6:08 pm DS
  39. Hey DS!
    if we believe the courts are infallible .......but okay for the sake of argument atheism is a that sense my set of values does as you say impact my political beliefs.
    and having said that, i believe that is our duty as human beings to provide for those in need.......just as jesus taught his followers to do, just as Mohammed taught his........
    And, tho i am not a christian, i do read the words of jesus seriously(perhap's not pauls').....
    i cannot work any longer so i cannot get a job, as you put it......thank god(prayers of thanksgiving are all that i presume to intrude on her/him)i have my VA pension now......i worked hard all my life, and for many reasons i know i am lucky.
    i support the rule of's what i and my father fought for.......and if the rule says atheism is a religion......well what can i do?
    if the rule of law says marines must go.........
    But we have had this 25 year swing's high time for the pendulum to swing back left.

    February 3rd, 2008 6:55 pm davidwwalters
  40. What we need DS ,
    is freedom from religion, freedom to make law in a way that is free of any tenet or concept that is theologically contaminated by some sort of special understanding of somehow knowing god's will by those trying to bring their brand of religion into public policy. To be guided by your religion is one thing, to use your religion as a template to draft legislation is unamerican. But that is just my opinion. What do i know, i'm just an atheist liberal who like to quote jesus(but certainly not paul.....he was just trippin')
    David the Fascist Liberal

    February 3rd, 2008 7:53 pm davidwwalters
  41. David,

    Finnly something that we agree on, or sort of agree on. Your right our duty as humans is to provide for the less fortunet. But where we disagree, is that it should not be mandated or controled by a central Government. It should come from the heart, and it should come from free will. It should not come from a government that steals from it's workers to give to the poor.

    Charity should come from the social structure, and the reason why it has such a hard time is because to many people have lost there moral judgement. Charity and the care for the poor should come from the church, and other organizations, that give of free will. When the Government get's involved such as they have with the welfare system you raise a part of society that becomes dependent on the Governments check, and falls victom to a cycle of lazyness. They are given money and asked to do nothing to earn it, they are not given any sort of teaching or education or support to get back on their own feet. They are not given any incentive. In fact the only incentive that they are given is to have kids because then they can get a bigger check, and to keep not working. Don't get me worng, I know that there are legitemate people that are deserving of every dollor that the governemnt, and any charity can give to them. Such as disabled vet's those that are mentaly or physically disabled, or any other thing that is not just someone being lazy.

    As far as trickle down economics, it was working great untill all of the changes of Bill Clinton. Don't fool your self into thinging that William Jefferson Clinton was the cause of the great economy during his term in office. The cause was the expansion of small business due to trickle down economics that made it viable to own a small business. During the late 80's and early 90's most of these where the start up internet companies, that had there legs eventualy cut out from under them by Clinton's econmic policies.

    The key to economics are Jobs. and Jobs are created when it is worth someone starting a company that then needs to hire employess. This is caused when there are insentives, and it is economically viable to do so. But when you place all the tax burden on companies, and the rich, the people who create industry, and create jobs, it is not worth it for them, so they scale back to the point where they are economically viable. It is the same reason that they go off shore, because then they can afford to do business. If you ever get involved in your local politics it will see this much clear. In the city that I live in, they tax the crap out of their small business, because most of the population is living off the government, so they stick it to the buisness in order to get revenue. Because of this, the town next to us in the last 7 years, during all of this suposide hard economic times has triple in size in it's commercial industry, and the city is booming. They give tax breaks to the business, this makes it much more viable for them to open shop. This atracts new residents, wanting to live close to work, meaning there now is much more revenue in the residential sector, meaning that there is more normalized tax revenue, to build the schools, and make the city look nicer. This equates to larger business, because most large business owners are going to live in a very nice town, and the same town that they are going to live in. This means now you have even larger residential homes, bringing in more revenue.

    Now tell me please tell me, how taxing the crap out of the rich, and the poeple that are going to build a business to give this money to the poor who are going to do nothing but buy drugs, and large screen TV's made in China is going to help the rest of the economy. Please explain this to me, explain to me how taking more money from the rest of us, so that the poor can have health insurance, because again they are to lazy to get a job that has health insurance is going to help the rest of society.

    YOu need to face the facts, they librals are doing nothing more then using the poor, to keep them poor, so that they can stay in power. All it takes in our society to make a living, and have a home, is a little hard work. That is it. any one end every one can get a 4 years college education using student loans, that they then pay back after getting their education, and getting a job. It is a great system, and it is one that I used along with my militery benefits that I earned by being a soldier, and putting in 4 hard years of active military service. So again, I ask you, why should I have to pay for all the lazy people in this world?

    February 3rd, 2008 8:27 pm JarrodM
  42. So why not nerve-gas the fuckers like you redneck bastards did back in the 60's?

    February 4th, 2008 7:04 am dissolvethecorporation
  43. Well, maybe teargas.......
    but yeah......dissolve the Corporation that runs this land....and their trickle-down golden showers of greedy delight.........

    February 4th, 2008 7:18 am davidwwalters
  44. I haven't seen much trickling down since before Ronald Raygun. There's been a lot of trickling up from the ex-middle class to the fat cats.

    February 4th, 2008 7:39 am dissolvethecorporation
  45. i like to smile at 'em as i chew 'em(Conservative/regressive)up

    February 4th, 2008 7:44 am davidwwalters
  46. dissolvethecorporation - sorry if you are middle class, you goddam redneck! Go back to college and maybe you can earn a higher income.

    F the teargas! Knockin some heads with night sticks sounds much more fun.

    And, I am black -- not a redneck.

    February 4th, 2008 7:59 am Jerome
  47. Jarrod......right you are: some politicians will stoop to ever lower levels.....
    Sometimes though, it takes a government to provide for the common welfare. it's just good public policy for so many reasons to make SURE a minimum standard is set and that everyone has their daily bread.
    To many americans however,it seems as if the needs of corporate interests are considered to the exclusion of the people that make up this country. When corporations pay their fair share of the tax burden, and we are not burdened with a costly war.......we will have money for grants instead of another layer of profiteers getting rich off of loans. Welfare isn't needed for corporations.

    February 4th, 2008 8:04 am davidwwalters
  48. Jarrod,

    Very well said, and you didn't even have to swear, call names, or throw out incorrect statements as if they were fact!

    Dave, even though you are very confused, and bitter about something that has happened in your life, I think that you might still be someone who can reason. Dave, you won't find anything in the constitution that says there should be freedom "from" religion. You will find there should be freedom "of" religion. And I think even you will agree that we practice that in our country. Even you can decide to be atheist without having to worry about being persecuted. But atheists aren't happy that there are those who believe in something other than themselves.

    As for dissolvethecorporation, you add absolutely no value to this conversation. Feel free to become part of it "if" you can do so without swearing and spewing out your vulgar attacks. Apparently, the truth of Jarrod's explanation of how jobs are created really shined a light on your dark understanding of economics and social values.

    February 4th, 2008 8:05 am DS
  49. "......because again they are to lazy to get a job that has health insurance is going to help the rest of society."
    i need a lesson in it me(i mean i'm just a liberal) or what, but why is it we need a whole industry getting a cut of the healthcare pie just to turn a profit(the insurance industry)
    Must there be a profit in everything....? Where is it mandated in the constitution that profit trumps the "collective welfare"? hell, we need money in our economy, so why don't we just hire out our military to the highest bidder.......and shoot all those pesky poor/LAZY people.......and homeless vets like MacArthur did in 32.

    February 4th, 2008 8:19 am davidwwalters
  50. there is overwhelming evidence that the founding fathers created america within a vision of religious indifference. the idea that america was "founded upon judeo-christian values" is a misrepresentation induced by certain candidates currently seeking election. one religion cannot simply lay claim to our country's foundation because some of their basic values agree. the idea of treating your fellow man and acting for the greater good was not pioneered by any one religion, it is simply humanity's inherent good will and effort to preserve itself.

    February 4th, 2008 11:35 am Paul K
  51. @ Paul K

    you are wrong. This country was "founded upon judeo-christian values", whether or not you agree. It's a fact. Deal with it.

    February 4th, 2008 11:40 am Urban Conservative
  52. These are not Americans. I am completely and utterly HUMILIATED that ANY city council within the boundaries of the United States would engage in this type of action. It is abuse of a corpse..... our beloved Republic has died a violent death within the boundaries of their city. It is a perfect example of what happens in a society that has complete disregard for those who are charged with it's protection. It has been said in the past and I will restate it here, again: "Too much freedom leads to no freedom at all"

    They should be tarred and feathered and run out on a rail.

    February 4th, 2008 11:47 am TED
  53. I am so sorry. People of discernment should not hear profanity from the unwashed rabble. In the future, I will show restraint. After all, people who advocate torturing uncharged prisoners, deporting immigrants while their children are at school and cluster-bombing Lebanese civilians must have delicate sensibilities.

    February 4th, 2008 12:36 pm dissolvethecorporation

    Communists are merely socialists with guns!

    As my loyal friend Ted said above, the actions of Berkeley city council are absolutely nauseating and repugnant! I would rather have my family live in the slums of So. Chicago than to reside in a community that is so completely oblivious to what the real America truly is all about!
    The elitist attitude of the city council only validates my belief that the "Left" coast has deteriorated into epidemic insanity and disillusioned liberal extremism!
    I hope they never need a Marine to save their sorry asses!
    Semper Fi

    February 4th, 2008 12:55 pm Commander J
  55. sure, fine. i'm not going to try and have a discussion if nobody's going to consider ideas that don't coincide with their current beliefs. you don't learn new things if you never reconsider the old. you can continue your discussion about how awful everything is, who should be punished, what should be avoided, and all that is wrong with this great nation that's being soiled. you can continue to sit with those that share the same beliefs as you and throw the same agreeable ideas back and forth, but nothing is ever going to get done until we set aside our affinity for calling people "liberal nutjobs" and "conservative pigs". we need to discuss things intelligently and examine our differences so that we can find the medium in which our progress lies. i don't expect anyone to be interested in changing their ways, after all, that is the trend you encounter at either far end of the political spectrum. you don't have to agree with me, just listen and consider.

    February 4th, 2008 1:04 pm Paul K
  56. To: Paul K and disolvethecorporation: In the words of one of our founding fathers and I quote: "If ever a time should come when vain and aspiring men(or women) shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of it's experienced patriots to prevent it's ruin". Samuel Adams.

    Paul... talk it out to your hearts content and recieve the praise of your peers and mabey a Nobel peace prize for your effort. Save me a front row seat at the United Nations.

    Disolvethecorporation..... surely you should be able to come up with a more 'original' set of remarks than that! Your comments are 'textbook' left wing liberal garbage, merely restated and not your own. Let us all hear what you really think. I would submit that you would be the first to run away and hide when confronted with the truth. You lie, knowingly, and are a complete disgrace to the American people. Not for voicing your opinion, but for spewing seething, elitist, arrogant accusations that are known to be false. I would not be the least bit suprised that you are, in fact, a member of the Berkley shitty council and if not.... no doubt you support their actions. I doubt... seriously doubt, that you would be willing to lay down your life in defense of your country. Oops... sorry... I ment to say our country... you don't have one.

    Openings in the following corporations that won't disolve their operations for you: Venezueala, Russia, Belaruse, People's Republic of China, Sudan, Iran, Syria........ hey, it's a free world, isn't it?

    Now, let us hear what you know to be true about the other countries listed above, or anywhere else in the world, regarding their military operations and all the wonderful things they do to their citizens and neighboring countries. Come on disolvethecorporation... I know you can do it. Seek the guidance.

    February 4th, 2008 2:39 pm TED
  57. "If ever a time should come when vain and aspiring men(or women) shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of it's experienced patriots to prevent it's ruin". Samuel Adams.
    The time is now for experienced patriots(experienced? Me? Yeah) to prevent ruin, or should i say further ruin because the damage done to our republic by the corporate raider mentality of most of our elected they democrat or republican.

    February 4th, 2008 3:21 pm davidwwalters
  58. TED,

    Funny you should mention Venezuela first. As the father of a developmentally disabled child, I've been fighting for Disabled Rights for his entire life. At a time when the right-stacked US Supreme Court has ruled (6-2) that the burden of proof is on the parents in disputes with school districts over appropriate education, Hugo Chavez is decades ahead of the US, decreeing Disabled Rights in schools, the workplace, availability of medical care including transplants, etc. In states such as Oregon, medical care is being denied to elderly and disabled citizens based on 'Allocation of Resources' policy. The Venezuela Mission Barrio Adentro IV has been praised by UN agencies and is one example of why the US is being replaced as a source of inspiration to the world. Personal friends of mine have moved back to their native Canada because they cannot get adequate health care. Don't tell me to leave; I am fourth generation American and although I am ashamed at the direction my country has taken, I choose to stay and fight to change it back to what it originally stood for: Freedom and equality.

    February 4th, 2008 3:21 pm dissolvethecorporation
  59. well said, dissolvethecorporation.
    much of the information presented to us through the media about hugo chavez is heavily biased. the pivotal reason that he is being depicted as a ruthless dictator and an enemy is because he is trying to redistribute the oil wealth in venezuela. about 20% of the country is getting rich off the oil reserves through cooperation with the U.S. chavez is disassociating the country from U.S. oil buyers and spreading the oil money among the sprawling poverty in the country, despite the wealthy 20%'s efforts in conjunction with the venezuelan military and the CIA to overthrow chavez in a military coup. hugo chavez proposed the idea of his indefinite reelection to safeguard the country from falling into the hands of a U.S. hired puppet president through an inevitably rigged election in the future. america is making it hard for venezuela to develop as a country simply because it cannot focus on the problem of its own dependence on oil. whether you all see climate change as an issue or not, oil is a resource that is dwindling, and our country rests precariously upon it as a sole source of energy and industry. we need to stop reaching for all the oil we can get as it dries up, and start researching alternatives. the rest of the world would greatly appreciate the effort, and our future would be far more secure.

    February 4th, 2008 3:45 pm Paul K
  60. I understand this is a "forum"...however the topic of this thread started as opinions of Berkeley city council and the Marine Recruitment seems to be evolving into a war of who is the most liberal/conservative!
    I think enough rhetoric has been espoused to determine that the left is a still trying to usher in an era of socialism to the United States....and it's failing miserably!
    Lets either get back to the subject at hand or ease on off to another topic!

    And ...Give em' hell Ted!!!

    Pax Vobiscum & Semper Fi

    February 4th, 2008 3:53 pm Commander J
  61. Semper Fi, Airborne and all that stuff.
    The need for socialism is present in america.
    ....Yes Cmd J, we are failing as a nation, to provide for all of our own, because we are mired down in the Mother of All Cluster-F**Ks, spending $$$$ hand over fist, for who's profit?
    This leftist can only hope the pendulum swings left once again, it's long overdue.
    David the liberal IS calling for more.....not less Socialism in our country
    People should be ENTITLED to basic needs guaranteed by elected officials, what's wrong with that concept, except that you would rather the entitle the corporations unlimited access to profits. Are we so beholden to profit that all else, including personal liberty, is of secondary importance?

    February 4th, 2008 5:59 pm davidwwalters
  62. Paul K

    Wow I would almost get from that statment that you hate the US. I would agree that the Media is full of Crap, but I would say that it slants the other way. Hugo is a tyrant, and under his leadership the masses in his Country have gotten poorer. I suppose it is a toss up on who to trust, our own media and Government and the statistics that they have on his Country. Or the man himself that has complete control over the Government, and the media, and has self reportedly aligned himself with such great people as the Leader of Iran, Korea, and Castro himself. I don't know that group just gives me the warm fuzzies. I agree, we should completely cut of buying thier Oil, but alternatives are nothing but a librals wet dream. The only solution to the current issue of where to get our Oil is in our own country where we have vast supplied of it.

    February 5th, 2008 3:49 am JarrodM
  63. Marines say they’re not leaving Berkeley

    The Associated Press - The Associated Press
    Posted : Tuesday Feb 5, 2023 6:18:25 EST

    BERKELEY, Calif. — While anti-war protesters chained themselves outside a Marine Corps recruiting center here, a spokesman said Corps does not plan to abandon the office even though the City Council has officially rolled up the welcome mat.

    The Berkeley City Council voted Tuesday to tell the Marines that if its recruiters choose to stay in their rented downtown space “they do so as uninvited and unwelcome guests.”

    Gunnery Sgt. Pauline Franklin said Friday that while the Corps respects city officials’ right to free speech, the Marines would not be leaving.

    Conservative bloggers and Republican Sen. Jim DeMint, R-South Carolina, lashed out at Berkeley following Tuesday’s resolution. DeMint said he would draft legislation to strip the city of federal money, including funds destined for UC Berkeley, for school lunches in the Berkeley Unified School District and public safety.

    “The First Amendment gives the City of Berkeley the right to be idiotic, but from now on they should do it with their own money,” DeMint said in a statement.

    Berkeley Mayor Tom Bates said he would speak with the Marines’ landlord to see if the recruiters could break their lease early without penalty.

    A retired Army captain, Bates also said Friday that he wants the council to amend its resolution because it “did not adequately differentiate our respect and support for those serving in the armed forces and our opposition to the Iraq war policy.”

    Berkeley police arrested three of the protesters who chained themselves together and blocked people trying to enter the recruiting station. They were cited for misdemeanors and released.

    February 5th, 2008 5:33 am Commander J
  64. this came out this morning. Looks like the Berkeley City Council is having second thoughts.

    I still wish a levy would break though.

    February 5th, 2008 7:17 am Urban Conservative
  65. "I think we shouldn't be seen across the country as hating the Marines," said Olds, who voted against last week's proposals. "If you make a mistake, like we did, you should admit it and correct it and move on."
    This liberal wonders why the actions of Berkeley's City Council angers so many......this is how representative democracy is supposed to work. This is what we fight for, or so we say, as a nation. Hypocrisy alive and well among conservatives it seems.
    Drafting legislation to penalize UC Berkely? I thought we were fighting to protect freedom and democracy, but Sen. Demint seems to think otherwise.......

    February 5th, 2008 8:04 am davidwwalters
  66. never bite the hand that feeds you. And, if you were a member of my beloved Corps, you would be angered too.

    February 5th, 2008 8:07 am Urban Conservative
  67. And if you do bite that hand......well hell, we're americans, we do that a lot........
    explain it to them, and then go vote.
    i understand your anger, hell i get angry too......and sometimes we all loose sight of how lucky we are to be able to have these exchanges of ideas, and take it for granted. Those of us that serve or have in the past, remember well the lack of freedom we endured at times........always on call, no life of your own, hell the training alone is deadly. Maybe that's what sets us apart.

    February 5th, 2008 9:02 am davidwwalters
  68. I hope everyone against the resolution has emailed the mayor and city council over and over again.

    I hope you have emailed all your elected officials - both state and federal.

    And I hope you keep doing so. I know I have been.

    At the council meeting:
    One councilmember said he served in the Marines, but was drummed out for his stance on Vietnam. He called the Marines the President's gangsters. He said don't forget the Marines are trained killers, so he wants to end the barbarism.

    The Mayor said that the Marines don't belong here and shouldn't have come.

    These Berkeley council members are giving aid and comfort to the enemy.

    February 5th, 2008 9:15 am RKThunder
  69. RKThunder, is it" aid and comfort...." or free speech?

    February 5th, 2008 9:41 am davidwwalters
  70. It is definitely aid and comfort. The council has definitely given preference to the views of code pink, even to the extent of allowing them the rights to a parking space directly in front of the Marine office. They vocally encourage and support the protestors, which is interfering with the Marines there. They are blocking the door to the office and refusing to allow possible officer candidates to get in.

    One council member at the meeting said she would vote against giving a similar parking space permit to a group that opposed code pink.

    The protests are escalating with Code Pink defacing the office, and code pink people chaining themselves to the entrance. By encouraging this behavior, the city council and mayor are inciting further physical acts which could endanger the safety of the Marines.

    To the Mayor and city council, the Marines are faceless, heartless and mindless robots. But we know from our service that Marines are not like that at all. I emailed the Mayor and encouraged him to get out and speak with the Marines and get to know them. They are probably young enough to be his own sons or daughters. He apparently knows the code pink people very well, its time he met and spoke one on one with the honorable Marines serving in Berkeley.

    February 5th, 2008 9:54 am RKThunder
  71. Dave.....during WWII it would DEFINITELY be considered aid and comfort! Unfortunately, our country has gone so far in the wrong direction that "freedom of speech" is used as an excuse for ANYONE to say ANYTHING without retribution!! Would you like to tell us where "freedom of speech" becomes "aid and comfort"? Please??

    February 5th, 2008 10:09 am DS
  72. Re: RKThunder
    "These Berkeley council members are giving aid and comfort to the enemy."

    I'm not going to deny the council is giving aid and comfort but Who's the enemy? Code pink are presumably your own citizens. Such hyperbole is fucking annoying.......... If you really think they are the "enemy" in the sense you speak then then go gun the fucker down.

    February 5th, 2008 11:47 am Seán
  73. Sean - Thank you for giving me control over your emotions to make you annoyed. Care to give me the rest of your brain so I can educate it?

    February 5th, 2008 12:19 pm RKThunder
  74. "during WWII it would DEFINITELY be considered aid and comfort"
    in WWII there wasn't any debate i am aware of about our involvement as there is today in, as i said, since our involvement in Iraq IS debatable, then we need to have open debate and expression of our opinions......

    February 5th, 2008 12:36 pm davidwwalters
  75. RKThunderRequest denied. Here is where I refuse to get dragged into name calling. Not knowing anything about you I think I'll leave it to my lecturers in Uni to educate me in my chosen field. I think I've set out my opinion on the goings on in Berkeley and I'll leave it at that!

    February 5th, 2008 12:47 pm Seán
  76. Sean,
    what he(RKThunder)needs is for ME to educate him........

    February 5th, 2008 1:10 pm davidwwalters
  77. Dave, your answer was so predictable I could have written it myself! And it totally proves that liberals will do and say ANYTHING to justify their beliefs....even though they are wrong. Do you not have any value system at all other than to slam our country, and to get ANY hand out that you can? Seriously Dave, you really should go to Canada, Europe, or any otther socialist country for your choice! I want you to be happy Dave. Oh, and why don't you take Sean and dissolvethecorporation with you! I'm sure the three of you would be MUCH happier there. We're NOT going to give up OUR country to socialists like the three of you!! So stop wasting your time boys.....

    February 5th, 2008 1:10 pm DS
  78. But you are willing to give up 'YOUR' country to fascists who are unraveling the constitution and giving handouts to ANY corporation whose lobbyists sponsor a fundraiser.

    February 5th, 2008 1:35 pm dissolvethecorporation
  79. to disolvethecorporation:
    Just read your comment. Allow me to convey to you my heartfelt sympathy regarding your son. I can fully appreciate your dismay over the 'process' or the 'system' you have been forced to operate within. The burden of proof should not be put upon a loving father who is attempting to get the help that is needed for his son. I lost my father on Dec. 22, 2005 after a long, protracted battle in two different hospitals, to survive an infection that he caught while there. He fought for his life for 4 1/2 months. It was absolutely horrific.

    When I attempted to hold the doctors and hospitals accountable for the poor medical attention he had recieved and for telling us nothing or keeping us informed, I got no where. Our attorneys advised us that the new tort reform legislation and political / legal atmosphere would make it practically impossible to be sucessful seeking remedy for these wrongs. This legislation was borne of and successfully passed by the Republican house and senate. Of course, many Democratic representatives and senators voted in the affirmative, as well.

    The point I am trying to make here is that you may be vulnerable to the persuasions from the hard left and could be an easy target for them to exploit because of the hurt and frustration over your son. This is how they work...Socialism at it's worse. There are big problems with socialized healthcare in Canada and Europe. Many die just waiting to be treated. There are many who decry the system, but their voices are not heard. Resources for healthcare in the west coast states are strained, tremendously, because of illegal immigration and due to our government's refusal to deal with it. I cannot say for sure, but your son may be a victum of this type of thing. It is not right, I agree with you. What happened to my father and all of my family was not right either. But I am not going to blame the Marines for that, nor am I going to condone the absolutely abhorent behavior of the Berkely City Council and play into the hands of the planners of unrest.

    Our government's first responsibility is to it's citizens and their protection. And that means your protection and your son's, as well. Neither party has done a very good job in that department. Whoever is telling you that our armed forces get enjoyment out of killing innocents in the Middle East, or anywhere else in this world is a complete liar or an idiot. And when our own leaders try to shove that rhetoric down the throats of our citizens, it is all by political design and is intentional.

    I could not have known about your situation when I wrote my last reply. I would like to offer you an apology here, for suggesting you should leave the United States. You have every right to be here and to voice your beliefs. As a fellow American, I pray you recieve justice regarding your son. That is the least our country can do for a fourth generation American. My good and loyal friend, Commander J, will defend your right to say it, too. And so will I.


    February 5th, 2008 4:02 pm TED
  80. DS
    "Dave, your answer was so predictable I could have written it myself! " Thankyou DS, predictability may just stem from my integrity. Exactly what did i say that was "wrong"?
    "Look at all of the owners of major corporations and tell me they don't deserve all the money they have. They worked their asses off and had an idea that worker"
    No there are NOT entitled to ALL of it, just most of it........but we, the people are the soldiers, firemen,teachers,and everyone else, job and no jobs that do the actual work that you speak of. i doubt there is anything about work that you could teach me......i could be wrong though.........
    And maybe they did have a good idea(our esteemed entrepreneurs), and as such are entitled to a fair profit........this is our society.
    No, the decline of america is not the fault of any hard working people, just cynical right-wing'd politicians.

    February 5th, 2008 4:05 pm davidwwalters
  81. Chase, i can understand your concern that as you work, there is a freeloader out there livin' off your dime.......i mean that's it in a nutshell, ok? i'm sure it happens
    And it's a real concern. But we have obligations to others, truly in need, and it is everyone's help provide for The Common Welfare as it is to provide for The Common Defense. Individual tax payers and corporate taxes along with other institutions fund this mess we call government.
    Point is..........ALL, including the "corporate citizen" have to pitch in to foot the bill. What's wrong with that?

    February 5th, 2008 6:29 pm davidwwalters
  82. The problem with that David, is that you are taking choice out of it. I agree that yes the government should do a better job to help out the true people in need such as the disabled, and handicab. But as far as the freeloaders screw them. The people should have a choice, and that choice is given when they donate of free will, not when it is taken from them and given to others, screw this Robin hood act by our Government. I don't have a problem paying some taxes that are going for the true needy, but that is the issue, most of it goes to free loaders. I'm a voulunteer Fire Fighter, and I have seen things that would blow your mind. People living in section 8 housing with huge flat panal TV's while their kids sleep on the floor. Or other calling for an ambulance for no other reason that they want to go downtown, not to the hospital.

    I'm all for the protection, and for helping the less fortunet, but not for the ones that choose to be that way.

    February 5th, 2008 6:59 pm JarrodM
  83. @ David Walters

    ... your last comment fundamentally explains the difference between conservatives and liberals. I don't feel it's my obligation to help those who do not help themselves. The more social programs we have...the more taxes we pay. It's called the redistribution of wealth (aka: socialism) and it doesn't work. Ask the great people of Cuba if socialism works. Cuban citizens all get paid the same (doctors and street cleaner) and the government provides each family with $10 a month and a live chicken.

    The reality is that no one helped me when I had to bust my ass and pay for college (and worked three jobs at the same time). I sacrificed everything to provide for my family. I am not about to reach in my pocket book to support others' who are not willing to sacrifice for themselves.

    We live in a country where EVERYONE has the opportunity to make it. It's all about how bad you want it and how much you are willing to sacrifice. Period.

    February 5th, 2008 7:04 pm Urban Conservative
  84. Jarrod......"The people should have a choice, and that choice is given when they donate of free will, not when it is taken from them and given to others, screw this Robin hood act by our Government."
    The problem with this line of reasoning is......what if it were a choice? What if some people choose not to pay taxes to fund an debatable war? No, i don't think that is a workable option.
    No, it's our obligation to help one another as much as it an obligation to protect one another. i see your point of people with flat screens and people rippin' off the system............there is also corporate welfare and maybe even cases of outright fraud perpetrated against the national treasury by well connected business types.
    While you and i are arguing about all this shit, there is some well connected lobbyist raking in big bucks in rigged contracts.......somewhere, you can bank on that!
    Hell yeah, i get ticked over welfare fraud, but i know it's the high rollers who are really raiding our treasury.

    February 5th, 2008 8:14 pm davidwwalters

    Berkley you lead the way.

    February 5th, 2008 9:44 pm becky
  86. I live in the Bay, and I think Berkley is a toilet.

    February 6th, 2008 1:54 am Operator
  87. @ Madrone

    Wow, you sure do talk a good talk. Let me ask you....what do you do to help with this problem? Donate your time, money? what?

    I hate to see young children suffer at the demise of their parents. As a parent myself, it hurts to see that because I often internalize it. But...i am not going to sacrifice my kid's education at someone else's expense.

    The reality is that if all Americans donated just a little of their time/money, America wouldn't have the problems that it has today. If liberal Hollywood would take just a pinch of their billions and donate to help the homeless/mentally ill, America wouldn't have the problems it as today. The problem is that most love to talk about it but never do a damn thing. Period!

    And no, I don't want to help the drug addicted and lazy people. If they are that screwed up and incapable of taking care of themselves and children, Social Services should take the kids away and place them in foster homes. They would have a much better chance at succeeding in life and break the cycle.

    Urban Out!

    February 6th, 2008 8:08 am Urban Conservative
  88. Chase
    "..............but how would we pay for it."
    By cutting back on an over-inflated military budget with so much pork for fat government contractors, that's how....
    When you factor in the consequence in the long term from our government neglecting the Welfare of the People.......more prisons and the related costs to society to support the prison population and all the other people you dismiss with a "Fuck that"
    No, you will be fucking YOURSELF in the end by following this path we are on(paying for this war, because that is what is busting the federal budget)..........

    February 6th, 2008 9:22 am davidwwalters
  89. Gosh madrone, that Socialism sounds kinda wacky to me!
    Thank you for some insightful intelligence on this matter!

    February 6th, 2008 9:41 am davidwwalters
  90. madrone: Maybe Halliburton should cough some up for homeless vets.
    YES!........maybe billO can make this happen!

    February 6th, 2008 9:49 am davidwwalters
  91. Haha that story is ridiculous. Maybe we should just let Berkeley secede from the Union, then their Pink Brigade can "defend" their new country.

    February 6th, 2008 10:27 am Xander
  92. Chase:
    David, I never said the war wasn't fucking up our economy"
    ........just my answer to where all the $$$$ goes that drives OUR taxes up.........and we can agree that pulling out of iraq will exacerbate an already bad situation(please forgive the under-statement).........
    i also would like to see a smaller government, but that isn't likely(ie. there is too much "vested interest" in the military part of our federal goverment).
    Our nation's interests seem to be driven by the potential for profit by some at the cost to anyone or anything else........and these few give americans in general and capitalists in particular a bad name. These are the one's we need to be eye-ballin' with a mind to keeping the federal budget in check.

    February 6th, 2008 12:06 pm davidwwalters
  93. madrone, you rule this blog!

    February 6th, 2008 2:22 pm davidwwalters
  94. @ PAUL



    I am with you on Uganda and all of Africa for that matter. We should be doing more to help.

    On Iraq…it's very easy to say that we have not accomplished anything in Iraq when you have probably never been to a war torn country; or understand what it’s like to live in a 3rd world country under a dictatorship. And of course, you will never hear both sides of the story from the main stream media. Besides some of the strongholds in Baghdad, Iraq has greatly improved it’s living conditions and are on a great path.

    According to Unicef….

    - more than 3 1/2 million Iraqi children had been immunized

    school attendance in Iraq increased by 60 percent shortly after the war to more than 95 percent

    - more than 2,500 schools have been renovated with the goal of 4,000 being completed by the end of the year, but 10,000 more need repair.

    - 240 hospitals in Iraq as well as 2400 primary health care clinics were operating as of December, 2003.

    - Sewer and water lines installed in most cities

    - Woman voted

    And this is old data from 2004/2005.

    Now to you, this may seem like a minor accomplishments…but not to an Iraqi.

    Lastly, the US or US interests have not been hit with a terrorist attack since 9/11. Is it because we are in Iraq and Afghanistan? Hell yes it is.

    Stop being so damn pessimistic.

    February 6th, 2008 2:38 pm Urban Conservative
  95. UC:
    please forgive my impulse to reply as such:
    "Stop being so damn pessimistic"'s hard not too, as well as being prone to cynicism. But just to show you the frustration a liberal contends with(especially one school'd in the violent side of life).........the right wing has touted itself as the one's to handle these tough military "calls", and have not just failed, but failed miserably! Their acumen seems to be 2nd rate at best.
    Yes we have a list of facts you have just presented the world...........the only ones being(on top of MY list anyway.....i'm speaking for myself)the dead soldiers and all the other collateral damage(i've been involved in an airstrike gone bad as an RTO) it worth it..........this is the most important rule of warfare i i know you know this.......

    February 6th, 2008 3:15 pm davidwwalters
  96. UC,

    It's great that things are being done in Iraq. I'm just questioning at what cost. I'm not an isolationist, but this is an awfully expensive project. What I'm asking is, why is it ok to borrow so much money for socialistic projects in Iraq, but not here?

    As for this:
    "Lastly, the US or US interests have not been hit with a terrorist attack since 9/11. Is it because we are in Iraq and Afghanistan? Hell yes it is."
    I wholeheartedly disagree. Afghanistan, absolutely, except that the Taliban is returning thanks to our refocus in Iraq. Iraq? I don't believe it. Unless you've got some pretty good evidence, I'd say that tightened security in the U.S. and abroad, better police work, general awareness from the public has a lot more to do with why we haven't been attacked. We've removed the only thing preventing civil war in Iraq, and now we're trying to put things back together. Do I want Saddam back? No way. But we sure haven't handled this whole thing very well. Especially given the global support we had going into Afghanistan. Think of what we could have done...

    February 6th, 2008 5:44 pm madrone
  97. This Liberal is cheer'd by the rationalism of madrone much so, i hit my bong for you......ssssssssssssssst!
    ........a proud liberal(i do all my posts stoned......or as rush says..with .one hand tied behind my back)

    February 6th, 2008 6:09 pm davidwwalters
  98. Hey Chase!
    "The military part is the only part we should be investing into our federal government, everything else should be state run." theory this could work, but the real trick is to find a way make the military more cost effective by eliminating redundant systems, look at reducing overhead by elimination of no-essential bases overseas.......
    and to take a hard look at the way contracts that are awarded for hardware and services....
    And you'd have to raise your state taxes to defray the added burden placed on them by the Feds.......But i'm talking REALITY!

    "..... we would just be a bunch of assholes who came into their country to help and never finished the job.
    ........instead, we end up being assholes who f**k'd-up there country anyway!
    But we live in a real world, where the answer to all our problems .....................................does not lie in blaming it on the liberals.

    Again madrone slams all!
    "What I'm asking is, why is it ok to borrow so much money for socialistic projects in Iraq, but not here?"
    So, i guess the room belongs to madrone.

    February 6th, 2008 10:04 pm davidwwalters
    Cost?............What is Costing America?.........Liberals?
    ..............Welfare mamma's?
    no, it's this damn'd WAR!

    February 6th, 2008 10:54 pm davidwwalters
  100. @David @Madrone

    David, go back to your bong. It seems that it is doing a fantastic job of opening up your mind to the truth...and Madrone, do you bong as well? Maybe that is the answer we've been looking for. If we can get every socialist in our country to hit the bong, over time it may clear up their mental disorder called "liberalism". Hey Dave, I thought you were atheist? How can you support and/or quote an organization like since they claim they are Quakers? And since they believe in resolving all conflicts through peace, and by appealing to the truth and goodness in every human being.....I wonder where they have been in the world? Why aren't they working with all of the bad guys in the world, convincing them that they really are "good" people, and shouldn't be so violent towards their fellow man? Maybe they can take Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Jimmy Carter, Code Pink, and all of the other "peace loving" folks with them to meet with Al Qaida, Hamas, Hezbollah, and the Iranian Mullahs to usher in a worldwide peace movement? I'm sure those folks would love to sit down with them and share the bong together! Damn, why haven't we thought of this before? David and Madrone, can you look into this and get back to us? We will gladly remove all of our troops from Iraq and Afghanistan after you pull this together. And one more thing......why don't both of you just stay over there so that you can be happy, and can share everything you have with all of the "good" folks in the Middle East. I KNOW they will appreciate it VERY much!! Oh, I almost left out Paul K and dissolvethecorp. You can go with them......I'm sure there are enough bongs for all of you!

    February 7th, 2008 7:33 am DS
  101. @Madrone

    You obviously don't GET IT anymore than David or any of the other libs who "have ranted" on here! We're in the "war of our lives" Madrone! The radical Islamic Jihadists will NEVER stop UNTIL they are TOTALLY defeated Madrone! We MUST win in Iraq, Afghanistan, and everywhere else that the Jihadists choose to fight! As long as we keep the fight out of our cities, we're doing what our governement is SUPPOSED to do!! Wake up people! Get a grip.....or get the hell OUT!!! I'm done responding to ALL of you libs. Go to your socialist country of choice and ENJOY!! You hate America, so GET OUT! That's all I have to say!! sssssssssssssssst!!!

    February 7th, 2008 8:53 am DS
  102. "That's all I have to say!! sssssssssssssssst!!!"

    Then STFU!

    You've swallowed all the lies hook, line and sinker. Iraq never had anything to do with Al Qaeda until we intervened. No, I'm not going anywhere. There's too much to do to prevent the neocon's march to Armageddon.

    Why don't YOU leave? Go to Dubai and do hashish hits with W, Kenneth Lay (who is reallly still alive) and the rest of your fascist, money-grubbing imperialist pigs.

    February 7th, 2008 9:14 am dissolvethecorporation
  103. .......and the beauty of(ssssssssssssssssst)
    is that STONED, my arguments, as well as my fellow imbibers, are more rational than yours DS!(i did my 1st jump in ABN school stoned)
    DS said: " Hey Dave, I thought you were atheist?"..........but that doesn't stop me from reading from the gospel of Matthew either........
    and: " Get a grip.....or get the hell OUT!!! I'm done responding to ALL of you libs. Go to your socialist country of choice and ENJOY!! You hate America, so GET OUT! That's all I have to say!!"
    i have a grip, and that means i will stay in my home, fighting(i mean this in every sense of the word) to bring change......
    i ENJOY a good fight, and after a long dark spell, america is waking up to the lies of the right wing,............... so there is not much chance of leaving america(the beautiful)

    February 7th, 2008 11:40 am davidwwalters
  104. Hello All,

    This is my virgin comment. Glad to join the discussion. I see the crazy, stoned, irrational liberal, david walters has gotten the last word. Just like a liberal isn't it: argue, argue, argue until no one is arguing any longer and you win the battle of the ego! May work for some unthinking squishy middle moderate zombies. But for the true conservative, who has been trying to have a rational conversation, they see their efforts are futile and move on to a more productive activity. Your last word proves nothing.

    I love the left's bloated, self-proclaimed characteristics of being "tolerant" and their claim that they're not haters. That's whitey on the righty, the bigot, the fat cat, that craaaaaaazy christian zealot. (Damn us for having faith).

    I ponder the question that begs an answer: "What are davidwwalters and his posse doing here in the first place?" Pardon my naivety. I ought not assume that just because I don't go somewhere (physical or virtual) simply to harass those with a viewpoint and set of values, morals, and beliefs that differ from mine, that others are as kind.

    Now where did I put that tolerance...?

    Taken as a whole, the conversation started out on the topic of Berkeley's request for the military to leave their peaceful, all-inclusive, all-loving (except for right wing christians who just wanna ruin their party, man) city. During the course of this string, the topic was driven off track a multitude of times. "By whom?" you ask. That's right, Dave&Co. But again, why am i surprised? Just another typical tactic from the left to distract those in the conversation and those listening so that they can railroad the entire conversation and spew leftist rhetoric. Whomever speaks the loudest and the longest is right, right? (Anyone ever wondered why they call it the "Right"?)

    At times, Walters is less than coherent much less rational or even smart. For instance: is it really a good idea to do your first jump stoned? I'm so dull, aren't I? I'm not saying you don't have a choice (which is what you liberals love, choice. and even more than choice you love the option to choose what gets choice and what doesn't. For instance, you can choose to rip a defenseless living human being apart, limb by limb, so you can run around fucking whoever whenever and not have to be responsible for your actions. but if Hillary God forbid becomes our president none of us would have the choice as to whether or not we participated in her socialist healthcare plan. "there are ways to sign them up" she said of those who don't want her shitty, charity insurance that not even she is using. so even if we choose to purchase better private insurance we're still paying for our crap gov't insurance, too). I'm just saying it's probably not the best idea out there to jump out of an airplane stoned. See? Not really too smart.

    I could list endless instances in this string alone where Dave&Co have joined us to harass us only to prove us "right' in the end about their hatred and intolerance. Not to mention the dizzying, circular, meaningless vomit of smokescreens, red herrings, name calling, bullying and all the other unkind tactics they systematically employ. (C'mon, Dave, be kind, it's kind of like the "kind" you smoke, duuude). I could go on but really, who wants to read an entry that long.

    So anyway, yeah, Berkeley - not cool, man. Not cool. And David, I thank you and your sidekicks for proving us right and for the entertainment. Y'all come back now, ya hear?!


    February 9th, 2008 3:24 pm I Think Therefore I Am (conservative)
  105. DS typed :
    "We MUST win in Iraq, Afghanistan, and everywhere else that the Jihadists choose to fight!"

    Iraqis in general weren't Jihadists before you invaded their country thereby legitimating a "holy war" against, what was in their eyes, a force of occupation of mainly infidels. I don't remember reading about any Iraqi being involved in any jihad operations of any kind prior to the Iraq invasion. Specifically I don't think any were involved in Isreal, Palestine or the occupied territories... partly I guess due to Saddam ruling with Sunnis and Palestine being mainly Shiite. Also none were involved in the bombings of the 11th of September. Or the Madrid bombings or the London 7/7 bombings..... Indeed it would seem that the

    invasion was a factor in radicalising british muslims to commit that atrocity.(p.s..... I'm not saying it was the only or even the largest factor.....and I'm not saying there's direct causation between the two)

    And dissolvethecorporation is right - Saddams Iraq had very little involvement with Al Qaeda. From what I remember of the arguements for and against the war at the time...... I think there were meetings between someone known to be in Al Qaeda and a representative of Saddams government. What wasn't proven was whether any real assistence was provided by the Iraqi government.

    DS also said : "The radical Islamic Jihadists will NEVER stop UNTIL they are TOTALLY defeated Madrone"

    Indeed..... however DS, to achieve such a goal is impossible. I think it is such as radical islamic jihadist don't just die out. You may kill some even all .... but if the same environment exists and the same hatred exists (hatred of the USA I'm presuming is your biggest concern) then more will take their place. You may kill all those prepared to take up arms against US interests but will you kill all who TALK about attacking them and ENCOURAGE others to do such. (I'm liking this capitalisation emphasis that you seem to use so much:)

    The US is presently has major forces in Iraq and Afganistan. DS do you know that there are other Islamic countries so unless you kill all the jihadists against america there aswell your goal is not complete. And then comes the killer blow that Islam is practiced around the world. Will u go through all the countries of the world searching for those ready to take up arms (or strap bombs to themselves or whatever) against the US.

    Of course to eradicate them totally you'd have to know not only which jihadists have helped attack US interests but which ones are WILLING to do such but meerly haven't applied themselves to the work yet. Not only that, but people who have not yet turned to believing that it is right to attack US interests in the name of jihad will have to be killed so that the jihadists can be TOTALLY defeated. Possibly some of these people will not even yet be Muslims but christians or jews who convert later.

    War will not stop the radical Islamic Jihadists for these very reasons. and to change your quote a little I think The radical Islamic Jihadists will NEVER stop UNTIL .....they decide/ are persuaded / grow up in an environment that fosters the belief ......that it is wrong to kill innocent people.

    I think therefore I am (conservative) said "What are davidwwalters and his posse doing here in the first place?"

    The exact same thing you are I'd presume.......... Reading Urban Conservatives' fine entertaining blog and commenting on it. Do you really think they come here to harass people?.... I mean maybe they do but I'd like to have a little for FAITH in people. Are they argueing....... sure...... but if you don't expect discussion of opposing ideas on what is a political blog then jezzz..... sure even conservatives disagree on certain issues I'm told:)

    I think therefore I am (conservative) said "Anyone ever wondered why they call it the "Right"?"

    Ya man.....I did wonder...... right up to the time I learned about the french revolution in school. It's where those who wanted the least amount of change to the political and social system sat.(that may be in slightly biased language....let us just say they were conservatives :)

    February 10th, 2008 1:10 pm Seán
  106. What are us liberal shit-bags doing here? I guess we're just tired of places like Huffpost where everyone agrees with us. Just so you know where I'm coming from, and I don't purport to speak for david or anyone else, I vehemently oppose our presence in Iraq, but that does not mean I support Islamist terrorists. I hate everything they stand for, just like you. I don't see any difference between them and our own neocon fundamentalists. The other major point of philosophical disagreement: I don't believe that most rich people are more deserving, smarter or worked harder to amass their wealth than many poor people. I've worked for too many worthless sons of successful business builders, who lorded it over their underlings and eventually squandered their parents' fortunes. I've also worked with many highly-skilled and competent friends who were held back by sociopathic, dishonest, greedy bosses and owners, and don't have a pot to piss in.

    February 10th, 2008 3:12 pm dissolvethecorporation
  107. eloquently stated........
    I ponder the question that begs an answer: "What are davidwwalters and his posse doing here in the first place?".........
    i'll forgive you if you don't want to read thu all these posts...........but, i like you, am prone to showing the lie that is a preconceived myth among the truly ignorant (of which political stripe, it knows no bounds........truly, you know i speak the truth.......)
    But by all means, get the conversation back on track, i'm all for, because i do enjoy a rational based argument, and not one the descends into petty personal stabs....... for jumping stoned........i was a kid, i did lots of stupid things as a youth........but that bit of trivia was to make some feel ashamed of their weak arguments...
    No, and it ain't because i need my ego preened, if it wasn't so dam'd sad it would be a joke or a game, but i can tell you i get grim satisfaction at being what?........older, wiser?
    No, it's just a plea to both sides to get their shit more, no less!
    Dave(ain't even ashamed of his leftist leanings)

    February 10th, 2008 4:17 pm davidwwalters
  108. what is just as outrageous the mayor is a retired army officer.

    February 13th, 2008 6:53 am Ken
  109. Hey Dave...covering all the bases ? Is it Semper Fi ( USMC motto ) or " Rangers lead the way " ( US Army ), your remarks Feb 1st...? You sound like a phony lib to me, pal...

    USMC 1964/68---- 1/1/2 Delta Co.

    February 13th, 2008 9:58 am Larry Conners
  110. Larry....
    Me?......A Co,1Bn Abn/508Inf,1981-1984; HHC 82 ABN 1984-1987
    i have paid my dues, and like i said..........way back when, .........these freedoms too, i protected!

    February 13th, 2008 10:30 am davidwwalters
  111. Freedom of speech does not equate to freedom from discomfort

    February 13th, 2008 11:33 am third
  112. "........freedom from discomfort."?

    February 13th, 2008 11:58 am davidwwalters
  113. I dont see what the big deal is... so Berkeley doesnt want Marine recruiters coming to their school. THey have every right to that. Don't we live in America? The land of the FREE. Berkeley has the right to free speech, just like you do.

    May 9th, 2008 5:00 am Jim

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