what about princess Hil and others?  They supported the conflict too.  i do not believe McCain supported the war for the hell of it.  he knows what it is like to be in a war zone.  Regardless of whether we think they made the right decision or wrong one, we have to finish it.  Obama's plan is stupid!  He can't say a definite date for sure because he hasn't been over there talking to Patraus (sp?) daily.  But, if you listen to Obama, you would think knows everything.  The General is the expert, not Obama!  Besides they announced a w/drawal plan today based on the Iraqi forces being ready to take over.  I can hear Obama and the terriorists now:  Obama:  we are leaving two weeks from Friday so pack your stuff; terrorists:  have the bombs ready to go off when we see the planes take off the ground and while you are at it blow the planes up too!  (i'm sorry, i could not help myself.)  we can't just leave because everyone can't leave at once so there would be terrorists waiting to kill our troops the moment they saw a clearing.  Hopefully, we have infiltrated Iran or have people who can keep an eye on them from Iraq.  i would think that that has been a major effort that they don't want to talk about to the public.  of course, what do i know--nothing.  as i've said before the mideastern culture issue has to plan a huge role in decisions and Obama doesn't have a clue because he doesn't have experience in foreign issues.

Titus.....
when the republican candidate for president supported this Iraq conflict that has bled this country's resources so,
i do not believe he cares how our money is spent either.  Obama at least wants to end this conflict and properly fund the VA system....a change i believe will do me and other vets some good.  Obama was here in Fayetteville yesterday.  Lots of Vets like me live here (Ft. Bragg is here)....15,000 turned out here in this Red State!

David:  i'm not disputing that at all.  there is so much wasteful spending across the board that it is ridiculous.  However, by what Obama and Biden have said, it proves they do not care about our money or us.  why would they even think about sending double the money to foreign aid?  why would Obama say $17+B is not much money?  i'm not spinning things here.  i was shocked when i heard it.  i didn't care for Biden at the time but didn't have major issues with him until i heard that and then i started listening more carefully to him.  i would think that it would be smarter to use that money and other money John McCain has said he would save by cutting out wasteful spending to pay down the deficit and help veterans as he has pledged to do and other necessary programs.  now Obama has had no record of saving money and without looking at everything he has done, all you have to do is to look at his huge pork barrell spending projects and it is easy to see that he doesn't give a damn about saving money.  Obama has not been a senator long enough to have a record that proves otherwise.  John McCain is by no means perfect; however, he doesn't propose pork projects and hates them.  I can see how much he cares for vets and wants to help.  He knows about health problems and wants to fund vet programs.  I don't know much about that side of things because i haven't served and if i had wanted to, i couldn't have.  However, i can say that he cares deeply about our armed forces and have no doubt he will improve things.  Obama, on the other hand.............................  i could toss a coin and have a 50-50 shot at getting an answer for him.  no one really knows because he has never served, doesn't have a long enough record and doesn't have children serving.

$80 Billion was pissed away on the Virginia Class Submarines.....how much do B-2 Bombers cost us?  Is this a cost effective method in fighting terrorism?  -No!  You want to talk about wasting money, -The Big Money is wasted on gold-plated items in the defense budget.
This money should be returned to the veterans and service members first by fully funding Veterans programs, instead of pork projects for fat defense contractors.

DS:  way to go; you said it.  well the democrats are ignoring me everytime i mention what Joe Biden said in his debate with Sarah Palin.  He said he and Obama would consider not going ahead with their plan to double foreign aid.  what the hell is that?  why won't democrats address that.  they are bitching about the school system and every other program not being funded instead but not seeing that our money will be pissed away more than it is now.  of course, they don't want to talk about Obama just blowing off the $17B+ dollars in pork barrel spending saying it is not much money.  every dollar counts and how dare he!  we should pay down our debt quickly because it will affect our CHILDREN!!!  oh, and according to democrats WE are the ones being selfish.  hahahahahahaha!  if this wasn't so serious of a subject i would laugh!  I have also continuously talked about job creation and how Obama's plan WILL NOT WORK on any level.  my son is 23 and he understands the economy enough and explained this to me before i ever said anything to him.  As Ron White says "You can't fix stupid."

Look, if we hadn't gone to war, why do we just assume we would be spending that money on additional social welfare programs?  We would be using it to pay down our debt if anyone is really serious about not leaving it for our kids and grandkids.  Why do liberals always look for more areas to spend it on?  Why not get serious about balancing our budget?  STOP the nonsense already about increasing funding for ALL of the social programs we have,  and STOP thinking up new ones!!  It's TIME that this country start behaving like a family.  FREEZE spending, make cuts on programs that aren't working, and STOP pork barrel spending for good.  Then start paying down the debt and make it mandatory to balance the budget!  Then, and ONLY then, think about investing in programs that work. That's what families do.  Why not the government too?  Come on David, get real and start talking about what's really important INSTEAD of always looking for ways to spend our hard earned money!!  I'm SICK OF IT!!!  WE (yes I said we) don't want a socialist country!!!  Go to Venezuela or Cuba if you REALLY want that!

Titus said:
".....if Obama gets in and implements his economic plan.  it will not work no matter how it is sliced.  it is economics 101."
WoW!.....I keep hearing about econ 101.  Tell me this:
$10BILLION/Month is spent on this war in Iraq.  I wonder why we can't apply some of that wasted money on  our own country......THAT REALLY NEEDS IT!

by the way Obama smokes, should we judge him on his possible lifespan?  how about i judge him on his qualifications!  let's see, he can speak well and convince people his economic plan will actually help people.  I CALL THAT A CON ARTIST!  yeah, let's vote for a con artist and see how our country works then!

People are living longer now and his health is not in question according to the doctors.  since i'm not his doctor, i'll take his doctor's word for it.  His mother is in her 90's and sometimes travels with him.  That is a good indication of his lifespan.  Palin's choices in her personal life should be her own and since we weren't there we don't know everything.  i've heard the same as you have and think that is too personal of a subject to judge.  i wouldn't want people judging my pregancy so i won't judge theirs.  She has had five children and should be able to figure out what is best for her and her child and obviously her delivery was fine.  As a female professional in a male-dominated industry, i can tell you that i have struggled and fought 100 times harder than any man on the same level to get where i am.  Politics has to be worse.  any woman who has accomplished what she has should be respected.  She also had over an 80% approval rating.  do you see that in Washington now?  how many new politicians go after people in their own party?  Thanks to her those folks are out of politics.  She is a strong woman and it is a big deal!  No one is perfect but she is a fighter.  she is not a washington politician thank goodness.  we have plenty of those and look at the mess we are in.  having someone in the whitehouse that has different perspectives can only be an asset.  anyway, as i've said in many blogs before, we will be screwed if Obama gets in and implements his economic plan.  it will not work no matter how it is sliced.  it is economics 101.

McCain is way too old! His health is in question! Palin is way too out there,
she got on a plane in labor, water leaking, but still insisted she was not going to have her baby in Tx. went on to Alaska to have her child putting the childs life in danger.  I don't think the voters should be risking the chance of her taking office as president, she could not even make the right decision to deliver her own child safely in Tx.  What would she do in a chrisis situation in the US.

@117.....well said. I wrote in another post that I am basing my decision on who these guys were before the campaigns.....because who they were before the campaigns will be what we see after the campaigns. So, I guess I am voting for who I dislike least.

The Big Mac always looks bigger and better on the poster than it does inside the wrapper.

Hey ladies and gentlemen, heres the real question.  Which one of the either candidates are really going to help this country out.  NEITHER! It is all just a bunch of hype because both candidates are hiding their true identities and nobody realizes any of it.  When either one of them get elected you will see the benefits of your decision.  When either one of them get elected, teh true McCain and true Obama will come out.  They will not stick to their plans.  Just watch these next couple of months go by and watch closely.  You all may just blow this comment off and say, "eh... thats a load of crap", and go on with your daily lives.  So agree to disagree.  =)

After turning himself in to authorities, 20-year-old David Kernell, son of Democratic Representative of Tennessee, Mike Kernell, is facing five years in prison, a $250,000 fine and three years of supervised release. He will be charged for hacking into GOP VP candidate Sarah Palin’s personal E-mail account. It is alleged that after reading the contents, he took a screen shot and posted it on a public Web site. The contents included email addresses, pictures, birthdays, and phone numbers of family members and more. To top it off, after resetting the password, he also posted the new one he had created, which allowed others to access the E-mail account themselves. Nonetheless, Kernell pleaded not guilty to the charges. Facing a $250,000 fine is intense. At $1,500 per loan, it would take about 167 individual payday loans to cover that outrageous expense. Post Courtesy of Personal Money Store Professional Blogging Team Feed Back: 1-866-641-3406 Home: http://personalmoneystore.com/NoFaxPaydayLoans.... Blog: http://personalmoneystore.com/moneyblog/

Josh....glad you noticed that too!
Will Thoughtfulness&Reason win in this years election, or will we repeat the ignorance of 8 years ago?

Kevin, got more than a course under my belt, and I do teach at the University level- I'm one of those "intellectual elitists" who choose to earn 40% of what we could earn in the private sector (industry) by working in the public sector (public university).  Maybe you are mixing public and private up possibly?  Either that or you just didn't do well in your econ class.  However, my daughter took AP econ in high school and knows this stuff.

This is too funny, McCain can't even win on a conservative blog!!!!

Consider the Battle of Antietam.....
"Not only was this the first major Civil War engagement on Northern soil, it was also the bloodiest single day battle in American history.
To view the magnitude of the losses, consider that Antietam resulted in nine times as many Americans killed or wounded (23,000 soldiers) as took place on June 6, 1944--D-day, the so-called "longest day" of World War II.* Also consider that more soldiers were killed and wounded at the Battle of Antietam than the deaths of all Americans in the Revolutionary War, War of 1812, Mexican War, and Spanish-American War combined."http://www.nps.gov/archive/anti/battle.htm

UNIONS?
What unions?  The lack of unions is directly proportional to the lack of laws and regulations governing the health and safety of workers.....
The system is tilted totally in favor of business...to hell with this nations greatest asset .....it's workers.
Companies can avoid those taxes that support the people that make up this country.....that can be fixed with  a duty.  This nation provides the infrastructure that assists business in their commerce.  Our nation provides a strong military that guards their overseas interests.  Business owes this nation......hell yeah it's patriotic to pay their dam'd taxes!
Yeah it's time....HIGH time for a change!

David,

Lincoln didn't have to worry much about a nuclear holocaust did he.....Or global warming, or the stock market crashing?  I agree with you about the Civil War, and being christian, I believe that Lincoln was ordained by God for such a time.  BHO isn't ready for any of this.  But beyond his inexperience, I just don't truest him.  He has lied too many times.  He has too much to hide!

I don't know enough about workers comp to say, and I do feel for those who experience loss of health and jobs for no reason of their own.  This is where the safety net comes in.  But it can only be a  safety net, and not a social program to keep everyone at the same standard of living as they were. 

There are a lot of costs that American businesses are burdoned with which make them less competitive.  Unions come to mind first.  Second, the cost of exporting our goods and services are much more than Toyota has to pay for importing theirs.  And we could keep good companies and jobs here at home if they weren't taxed so much that they have to go overseas.  Democrats look for taxes everywhere they can, and companies will find a way to avoid them....by leaving the country if they have to.

DS....
You don't think a Civil War is complicated?
Come on my man!  The greatest change in our history.....wow!  But Barack has a fair degree of judgment and intelligence to manage a complicated situation....traits that McCain doesn't seem to possess.  To wit....picking Palin as his replacement.

"But the people who are working usually don't need a safety net.  One problem that we have in this society is that there are a lot of folks trying to live above their means"
-Until those workers get sick, or injured....many times injured on the job.
Do you think workers compensation treats workers fair?  I had a good job...living the American Dream....until a work place accident.  Went bankrupt!  Others become ill, and then go bankrupt.  Stay at home moms are divorced and loose their health care.......
It would make our business more productive and competitive in a global market if they were unencumbered with all the costs of health care.  GM is going broke and has for years been carrying this cost burden.....something Toyota doesn't.

David,

DS......This is another inexperienced Illinois Politician (The site errs in naming him a Senator.........he lost the Senate race).....
Yet Abe brought "judgment" to the office.

Please, let's not compare Obama to Lincoln.  That is absolutely ridiculous.  Can't we agree that the nation has changed a little bit since then?  Things are much more complicated and out of control today.  Besides, Lincoln did lose to Douglass.

"I know that socialism appeals to a lot of people, but not me.  I truly believe in the American dream"
Liberal ideas do favor those who are less fortunate, such as the broken, homeless vets who fought and defended the freedom of those favored with business acumen.......Yes, the Veterans Administration is a "Socialist" institution. 

I don't think any conservatives have argued that we shouldn't have a safety net for those that "really" need it.....those that have tried to help themselves, but still need help.  The problem is that the net keeps getting larger, and Democrats (actually liberals and/or socialists) are doing everything they can to keep the poor folks dependent on the net.  I'm sure if you're honest you would agree with me on that.  This is why conservatives are angry. 

But isn't it "Socialistic" to favor businesses with tax breaks so they can prosper and trickle down (or so they are suppose to) 

I disagree with you on this point.  Tax breaks for businesses are good because they generate more jobs for those people who are "stuck" in the safety net....that is if they really want a job.

I'd like to see a balance between the free market and socialism.  Hard work should be rewarded, and those who work should have a safety net
to rely on.  It just seems to me that many (not all) are just a bit greedy, as some (not all) are a bit lazy.......it's a matter of balance, huh?

This is an area we can somewhat agree on.  But the people who are working usually don't need a safety net.  One problem that we have in this society is that there are a lot of folks trying to live above their means.  It isn't a right to have a big screen TV, multiple cars, air-conditioning, big house, etc.  But Democrats have made everyone feel like they deserve those things, even if they can't afford them.  Families were much happier in previous generations even though they may not have had all of the luxuries of the rich.  I know my family was fairly poor, but we were very appreciative of what we had, and never complained about what other people had.  We knew that we could work harder, go to school, or do whatever we wanted to get more....but we were satisfied.  We didn't have liberals telling us they would give us everything we wanted.  We were content. 

And that is why I am against socialism and the re-distribution of wealth.  I know that unless a person has to work for what they get, they will never be happy and will always want more.  That is human nature.  That's why conservatives would like the government to get out of the way and let us work hard and prosper on our own.  That is really the ONLY way that we will be content as people, and as a nation.  I think we have more in common than we want to admit.  It's just that government keeps getting in our way.  I say "throw them all out", and start the healing process!

@harrysmom: "Kevin, you think wrong.  I teach this stuff.  I will defer on a lot of things but you are wrong. Please go read a book- respectfully."


Oh, good grief. You can't be serious. I've read plenty of books on economics. Took a course in it. Don't teach it, but I'm pretty sure what you said is not correct. You said this (on money):


"Conservative policy is to funnel it to the public sector in hopes that it will encourage business growth and the creation of jobs.  Liberal policy is to funnel it to the private sector in hopes that consumerism and investment will fuel business growth."


This is largely, if not entirely, backwards. Conservative policy is to funnel money into the public sector? The PUBLIC sector? And liberal policy is to funnel it into the PRIVATE sector? 


And which economic philosophy wants to leave more earned income in the private sector, rather than redistributing capital? Because I'm pretty sure a standard conservative economic precept is leaving money in the economy, in the marketplace, to allow the Invisible Hand of Adam Smith (Wealth of Nations--it's a book. You should read it sometime) to work its magic. Ergo, the conservative economic approach is not to "funnel" money anywhere, but let it seek its natural path from producer to consumer, from employer to employee, from product to marketplace, in the most organic and least-taxed, least regulated way possible.


This is not always the Republican point of view, but I have a hard time taking seriously the assertion that the conservative point of view is to funnel money to the public sector (government, entitlement programs, etc) while the liberal point of view is to funnel money to the private sector (via corporate welfare, agricultural subsidies, tax rebates,etc). 


I appreciate that you say you teach "this stuff". But I'm pretty sure you've got it backwards.


I would also suggest money is not a finite resource, and it's not just about "moving it around". If money were finite, nations could not build wealth (especially not wealth disconnected from any kind of precious-metals standard), and GDP could not grow at 3% and 4% and 5% and 6% a year . . . GDP is not a measurement of money moving faster, but of real increases in wealth (and, as we have seen, sometimes fake increased in wealth, but real wealth does increase). But that would be a longer discussion.


Sufficed to say, I think if you're going to assert that conservative economic policy involves funneling more money into the PUBLIC sector, additional explanation is required.

UC.....
Isn't she running on Bringing some kinda change to Washington?
"We're gonna shake things up in Washington!"   -All Mavericky and stuff!
Sounds like a lot of talk....huh?

david -- so what. that's not even an issue. ALL politicians abuse thier authority.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1008/14477...
Palin abused her authority?
Naw.....just Liberal bias!

John K.......
Nazis or "National Socialists", are to to Socialism as 
Christian Science is to science. 
Nazis were Fascist, not Socialists.

As far as the Nazi thing.  Nazis were not conservative or even an extreme case of conservative.  They were socialists.  How did Adolf get people to elect him though?  He pretended to be right wing because he knew how to get elected: pretend to be the opposite of what you are, something people can believe in and that is conservatism.

http://www.eons.com/groups/topic/1135922-Inexpe...
DS......This is another inexperienced Illinois Politician (The site errs in naming him a Senator.........he lost the Senate race).....
Yet Abe brought "judgment" to the office.
"I know that socialism appeals to a lot of people, but not me.  I truly believe in the American dream"
Liberal ideas do favor those who are less fortunate, such as the broken, homeless vets who fought and defended the freedom of those favored with business acumen.......Yes, the Veterans Administration is a "Socialist" institution. 
But isn't it "Socialistic" to favor businesses with tax breaks so they can prosper and trickle down (or so they are suppose to) 
I'd like to see a balance between the free market and socialism.  Hard work should be rewarded, and those who work should have a safety net
to rely on.  It just seems to me that many (not all) are just a bit greedy, as some (not all) are a bit lazy.......it's a matter of balance, huh?

David,

I can only judge him in two ways, character and record.  His character has been proven to be VERY skeptical.  I believe that the people you associate with says a lot about who you are.  And even though BHO has tried to distance himself from Ayers, Wright, Phlegler, Acorn, and on and on......there is too much evidence to the contrary.  He is not being truthful about these relationships.  And he has NO record to run on.  Two years in the Senate is NOT enough experience to be President, it just isn't!  And finally, I believe that anyone running for President should at minimum be able to get a Top Secret Security Clearance in order to be qualified to run....there is NO WAY that BHO could get one with his past history. 

Therefore, even though I may not believe he is a terrorist, I believe that he supports terrorists.  That is enough for me to not want him as President.  And his voting record and philosophies definitely support socialistic ideas and tendencies, so I do consider him a socialist.  I know that socialism appeals to a lot of people, but not me.  I truly believe in the American dream.  If you work hard you will be rewarded.  That is contrary to socialistic philosophy.  We can't continue on this same track.  There are too many social programs today, most of which are being misused by a lot of people.  It isn't right, and we can't just keep taxing the rich to pay for it.  The rich will take their money elsewhere, and jobs will disappear.  Then what do we do?

DS........funny how us liberals equate conservatives as Nazis and Fascists
while conservatives equate liberals as Commies and Socialists.
But is this really true?  I admit to calling Bush and Cheney Nazis, but i really don't think they are....i'm just engaging in a bit of hyperbolic excess......
So my question to you is:
do you really believe Barack Obama is a Terrorist, or a Socialist Commie?

David & harrysmom....

You don't seem to understand...You don't get to choose your new national anthem.  You will be forced to bow down to "the chosen one", "your messiah"......BHO.

Harrysmom.....Good one too!   "The Star Spangled Banner" really sux!
It's a chore to sing, and leaves me feeling drained......we need an anthem that a person wants to sing.

David Walters:  My new idea for a National Anthem:


Like a fool I went and stayed too longNow Im wondering if your loves still strongOo baby, here I am, signed, sealed delivered, Im yoursThen that time I went and said goodbyeNow Im back and not ashamed to cryOo baby, here I am, signed, sealed delivered, Im yoursHere I am babyOh, youve got the future in your hand(signed, sealed delivered, Im yours)

Oh, and Ameriken..........
I started a family with lots of money and had it taken away by a man who beat me.  As I had put this man through college, I didn't have a degree and had to raise two kids alone.  I returned to school, one night a week, and graduated from grad school a week before my oldest graduated high school.  Along the way, I have been a community organizer (including PTA president).  Needless to say, I know struggle.  Government was my savior in climbing out of poverty- I simply can't see it as the hinderance that so many do.


David Walters------- I live near DC.  I will have plenty of room on Jan 20-21.  :)

Ameriken, I hear you.  I used to like McCain, but when he chose Palin, I freaked.  I know that she has appeal, but it was a direct dig at H. Clinton and insulting.  McCain has shown some really strong colors through this election, and they are not red, white, and blue.  After the Bush campaign publicly announced that McCain's marriage to Cindy was illegitimate, as were their prodigy, it was well documented that ol' John looked to come over to the "ass side" of the isle.  Had he done this, who knows where we would all be now?  Sometimes, experience is a curse.  As I've said before, the business of politics sucks out one's soul- after 26 years on the hill, it's possible McCain has been sucked dry.


As for the culture wars (as we sociologists refer to it), it makes me crazy because we are all more alike than we are different.  Obama reminds me of this and that is true leadership.

DS.....
i don't put the horse before the cart.....but you can bet that if B. H. Obama
wins...i'll be bookin' a room for the inauguration.
As to Nation Anthems, how about

THIS LAND IS YOUR LAND
words and music by Woody Guthrie

Chorus:
This land is your land, this land is my land
From California, to the New York Island
From the redwood forest, to the gulf stream waters
This land was made for you and me

As I was walking a ribbon of highway
I saw above me an endless skyway
I saw below me a golden valley
This land was made for you and me.....

GOP Former Gov. "He is not the McCain I endorsed"
...according to the Grand Rapids Press, Former Governor, William Milliken,
is stating serious doubts about McCain: "He keeps saying, 'Who is Barack Obama?' I would ask the question, 'Who is John McCain?'
Milliken, a lifelong Republican, is among some past leaders from the party's moderate wing voicing reservations and, in some cases, opposition to McCain's candidacy. 

Concerning Palin, Milliken said: "I know John McCain is 72. In my book, that's quite young," said Milliken, 86, Michigan's longest-serving governor. But he added, "What if she were to become president of the United States? The idea, to me, is quite disturbing, if not appalling.
"Increasingly, the party is moving toward rigidity, and I don't like that. I think Gerald Ford would hold generally the same view I'm holding on the direction of the Republican Party."
During a stop in Grand Rapids on Thursday, Lincoln Chafee, a former Republican U.S. senator from Rhode Island, said he's voting for Obama and urging others to do likewise.
 "I saw what Bush and Cheney did. They came in with a (budget) surplus and a stable world, and look what's happened now. In eight short years they've taken one peaceful and prosperous world, and they've torn it into tatters."
As for McCain's choice of Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin for his running mate, "there's no question she's totally unqualified," Chafee said.
He had similar reservations about Obama's lack of experience, but said the Democrat's handling of the campaign convinced him he's ready to lead.
Chafee said he has spoken with several other moderate Republican leaders, and "there are a whole lot of us deserting."
One of them is Phil Arthurhultz, a former Republican state senator from Whitehall, who was traveling the state with Chafee to drum up support for Obama.
Bob Eleveld is a former Kent County Republican chairman who led McCain's West Michigan campaign in 2000. This year, he has remained mum unless asked.
"I'm not supporting either of them at this point," he said. "Suffice it to say there are a number of people who have been strong Republicans in the past, including party chairs, who feel as I do."
In the past, McCain was more of a moderate known for his straight talk, Eleveld said. "I think the straight talk is gone," he said, describing himself as a member of the party's moderate wing. "I think he's pandering to the Christian right. That's some straight talk from me."

@ harrysmom.......I appreciate your replies. As I've said in some other posts, I am not quite content with either candidate. If I go for McCain, despite the fact that I disagree with many of his beliefs, it will be because of his experience and years of working both sides of the aisle. Despite his weak campaign, he's not afraid of opposition or getting his feelings hurt. Prior to the campaign, he was liked, if not loved by Democrats (to the dismay of Republicans) up until he became the Republican nominee for this trait. If he loses the election, it will be for being a downright awful campaigner, and for campaigning as someone who he is not. This is not the McCain that existed prior to the campaign.

As for BO, I sitll have reservations also.......one of which is not enough time to know what kind of person when not campaigning. I do think BO will win the election, as he is getting help from McCains lousy campaign. If BO does get elected, I don't hold any fear for the country with him in office, I think he can do OK, not great, but OK. Same for McCain. If BO does get elected, I would like to see Republicans get back the House or Senate, as I believe in checks and balances, and as we have seen in the 2000's, one party in power can be a negative for the country.

As for unity? Hah, thats a joke. Weak egos and low self-esteems won't allow this nation to be unified....everyone has to think they're better than everyone else. So long as liberals continue to brand conservatives as racists and bigots and hating the poor, etc; and as long as conservatives return fire with calling liberals unpatriotic and socialists (as demostrated in this blog), the US will never be unified. 

Sure, I can join in with the insults and attacks, but to what end? Well, maybe it makes the attacker feel better, such as toe calling me 'ameri-con' or David Walters twisting my name into 'amerikkken'. Maybe that makes them feel better? I would hope they and their republican counterparts could rise above that.

Life is too short to for that. I've got enough obstacles I've had to overcome in my life, having made a poor choice to start a family 25 years ago with a poverty level income, and to find a way to climb out of it and get to the lower end of middle class where I am at now, with many obstacles still to overcome before I emerge at higher end. 

And not one democrat or republican has been helpful...if anything, government is a hindrance and has made things more difficult. So all of this crap that Obama will do this for me, or McCain will do that, is truly meaningless and empty. The government that promises less, does less, and stays out of the way, is the government that I find most helpful in achieving success and happiness.

hoboblah,  this is for you: 
A Conservative for Obama
My party has slipped its moorings. It’s time for a true pragmatist to lead the country.


http://www.dmagazine.com/ME2/dirmod.asp?nm=Core+Pages&type=gen&mod=Core+Pages&tier=3&gid=B33A5C6E2CF04C9596A3EF81822D9F8E

I recommend that harrysmom and simonesdad2008 get together as they seem like the perfect couple.  And David might want to make it a threesome........you know good things come in threes!  Maybe you can form a trio and learn your new national anthem.....so that you'll be ready for BHO's inauguration. 

http://www.glennbeck.com/content/articles/article/198/16200/?ck=1

Hoboboboboblah blah blah blahhhhhhhhhh


My "qualifications" were reiterated from Ameriken (dummy).  And the "emote at will" incident occurred before he announced his running for office (again, dummy).  This was not on a handshake line- it was a social setting.  Just because I've focused my energies on this election to get online and represent my candidate in cyberworld, don't assume that we are lazy schlepp who sits at a computer all day (wait, I do work at a computer for a good part of the day- nevermind).  Don't project Hobobobbobob.  


Your mind is too small and linear to engage, and your heart seems to be closed- so I don't bother answering you.  Don't bother answering me.

Someone needs to tell harry that OBAMA has been bought and paid for before he got to this point.  Nothing will change. 

The way OBAMA emotes at will, while a neat trick to manipulate peoples feelings is hardly a qualification to be Commander-in-Chief.  He could however have a very successful talk show.

I look at Harry's "qualification requirements" and can only wonder if the Russians will laugh IN his face, or behind his BACK after he leaves. 

Either way they will be laughing and we will not.

But as long as we keep calm, everything will be ok.  It's decisive to be indecisive.


out.

GM- General Motors  (that's for Russell, who seems to have low mental skills - if this gets "too long" for you, dear Russell, perhaps a nap is in order, you can come back and finish reading a sentence or two at a time later)-GM  dropped in value today- with shares now worth under $5.00- lowest since 1950.  They are on the brink of bankruptcy...and still you neo-cons don't get it.   You think this is some sort of game.  You think the politics of hate, lies, and distraction will serve to take American's collective eye away from the issue of the day.  The economy  is on the edge - in the grips of a very dangerous fall that will not leave anyone untouched. ... your answer is to hunt for ghosts,  try to find something...anything,  that you think will cause doubt or fear for Obama voters...what you fail to see is that, while you encourage the hate - wishing for (yet another) distraction brought on with your bigotry inspired fear-and fear mongering... your tactics serve only to add additional nails in your coffins.
Please carry on.

Ameriken #71 *You are welcome.  
The qualities that I personally believe Obama possesses:
-the ability to bring the country together and start the healing process of political, racial, religious, and other divides we have today. This is perhaps my biggest 'dream' for the country.
I have personally met the guy- and I'm a very harsh judge of character.  Very harsh.  He is real.  I don't know how to explain it, but he misted up when I told him my personal story (which to some, is kinda' sad and inspiring at the same time). 

-backbone: the will and determination to execute their ideas in the face of opposition and pressure. Can they stand up to the same pressures, opposition, and hatred that Bush had the last 8 years? 
His calmness impresses me.  He stays cool under pressure and stays the course- whatever way it bumps.  I think he is solid.  But not blindly decisive in the way that Bush can be- he remains open to opinion and advice, and he impresses me as someone who can pack a punch when necessary (like now).
Or will they go the way of popularity ratings? Can they go against party pressure, popularity ratings, world popularity and pressures, international threats, and pressures from the UN to go their way instead of our way? 
I think Obama is pragmatic enough to know what to do to get the thing done and when to do it.  He is close to winning and he's got to do what he has to do.  I appreciate that.  I've had to "do what I had to do" at times, whether I like it or not. It's the American way.
I'd like to know if they have the backbone to do what they believe is right for this country without wavering for appearance sake and popularity ratings. The b-lls to actually execute their ideas and promises despite all the flak they'll get once in office. 
This remains to be seen, but Obama has delivered his campaign promises as a Senator.  
I've lived in cap cities or THE cap city for my entire adult life.  I mix with politico crowds from time to time.  The business crushes you.  I think Obama has the fortitude (aka Michelle Obama) to hold on to his sanity.  In the end, that's the best we can ask of someone who is willing to stand up and run this mess of a country.  
Think again man.  Obama won't deliver the promised land, but I think he promises a better place for our children in the future.

I know exactly what was in that bill, hoboblah... a request for a timetable,
something that this country overwhelmingly favored... deal with it hoboblah. 2007...remember? it wasn't that long ago.

HoBo....
forgive me for not multi-tasking to your standards (my girlfriend wants something from me that has divided my attention) 
So, as to the "21st Century G.I. Bill.......
“It is only fair and right that our service members have the educational resources to meet the demands of the 21st century,”-says Sen. Chuck Hagel
McCain's grip seemed to be that it would harm "retention".....that because GI's could afford to go to college, they'd be less likely to stay in for another hitch .......
which would mean another tour of Iraq possibly.

Is this America?  Discuss....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjxzmaXAg9E

I'm referring to your posting of H.R. 1591....  plz follow along every now and again?

Plz enlighten me as to H.R. 1591 ..  you know what I mean Dave.   tell me how great that bill was.


out.

HoBo.....in the words of your great leader:  "Bring it on!"
The VA system has been underfunded by successive Republican administrations, all the while wrapping themselves in the "Red White & Blue. 
McCain opposes funding the VA and then has the gall to say he loves Vets!  So UC, i hope you can understand my righteous indignation to this Asshole....especially after my latest visit to the Fayetteville VA hospital.

dave -- what's with the name calling "my friend"?

Wise not to proceed Dave.   I would have destroyed you.


out.

http://www.adn.com/front/story/550371.html

Here's more!
Enjoy, warmongers!

Well, War-Hero Rush Limbaugh doesn't seem to like  VoteVets.org
http://washouts.blogspot.com/2007/09/votevetorg...

Oh, Rough, Tough, Rush pussy'd outta his chance to serve.......
But the light of day is showing who the real phonies and posers are, huh?

Toe & David,

Either you two are morons or hypocrites.  Which is it?  Or is it both?  That's a possibility you might wish to consider.

I mean you couldn't possibly be offering into evidence the H.R. Bill 1591??!!?? 
You know the bill that OBAMA and BIDEN voted FOR??!!
The one that John McCAIN voted AGAINST?

The Bill that funded the troops whilst LOSING the war at the same time?  That Bill?

You shouldn't bring up that bill.

Unless ur a moron, hypocrite, or both.  then by all means, proceed and tell us why YOUR BOYZ wwere all for LOSING the war?!

Enlighten me.

I get the sneaky suspicion that neither one of you actually understands how things work and you take your marching verbiage from others. 

out.

David, I am quite certain that you are aware of VoteVets.org.
they are a non-partisan, non political, non-endorsing group that concern themselves with veteran's affairs.  Obama's rating from this group I believe,  is  80%-  McCain?  oh dear... not even close.  not even close.
Additionally, John McCain has received a 20% rating by Disabled Veterans of America.

Thank you Toe for once again presenting the facts:
".........voted against H.R 1591, an emergency spending bill that would have funded the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq and would have provided more than $1 billion in additional funds to the Department of Veterans Affairs.  The Senate passed that bill by a margin of 51-47."

This Vet sees the hypocracy in McCain's rhetoric......when matched to his actual votes as a senator.  He talks the talk, but DOES NOT
-walk the walk!

A very melodramatic Cindy McCain stood on the stage- wringing her hands - telling the rabid rally ready to rumble crowd how dreadful it was and how it made her feel that Obama would vote against her son who is in "harms way" ... how dare he!! 
I guess it slipped her mind that the father of said son, her husband, the republican candidate who (oddly enough) is running against Obama -Johnathon Sidney McCain, on March 29, 2007, voted against H.R 1591, an emergency spending bill that would have funded the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq and would have provided more than $1 billion in additional funds to the Department of Veterans Affairs.  The Senate passed that bill by a margin of 51-47.  The Senate subsequently agreed to the bill's conference report on April 26, 2007, by a vote of 51-46- McCain did not vote on that version of the bill.  By contrast, Obama voted for the bill on both occasions.  President Bush vetoed the bill.
It's not the first time dear hubby has failed to support the troops here and abroad.  Rather selective memory on the part of Cindy.  ...but then, that would not be as effective- being truthful-now would it, Cindy?

@ harrysmom # 60....... thank you. When Obama came on the scene, I actually did consider him as a choice. His original change message, which included the appeal for unity and healing the divides was quite appealing to me. I don't see that same person anymore.

As I have said in other posts, I am not pleased with either candidate. Both parties have far better to offer. Anyone can give a good speech and throw a sales pitch and get everyones emotions raised. Anyone can throw out some really good ideas for where they want this country to go and how they are going to solve this or that problem. We hear political platforms, party lines, mantras, slogans, and all that nice stuff. And I believe they both sincerely want the best for this country. But I am not sure either one has the qualities it takes to actually carry out their promises.

The qualities that I personally am looking for are

-the ability to bring the country together and start the healing process of political, racial, religious, and other divides we have today. This is perhaps my biggest 'dream' for the country.
-backbone: the will and determination to execute their ideas in the face of opposition and pressure. Can they stand up to the same pressures, opposition, and hatred that Bush had the last 8 years? Or will they go the way of popularity ratings? Can they go against party pressure, popularity ratings, world popularity and pressures, international threats, and pressures from the UN to go their way instead of our way? I'd like to know if they have the backbone to do what they believe is right for this country without wavering for appearance sake and popularity ratings. The b-lls to actually execute their ideas and promises despite all the flak they'll get once in office. 

All the promises of change or reform is meaningless if they have no backbone to execute their ideas when under pressure.

I want to know, when all the hoopla is overwith, and the election is overwith, who and what will truly emerge? I think we will see the person they were just one or two years ago just before they entered the race. Who they were and what they did, how they voted, how they conducted themselves before they got repackaged for the campaign is likely who we'll see after the campaign. 

I am unimpressed with both candidates and how both have already handled the flak thrown at them so far. Both were extremely weak and showed no real leadership through the bailout. I don't think either of them is a bad person with malintent for this country, and I do believe both wish they can do the best they can for this country. However, I am doubtful either one of them is the kind of driven person who can withstand the kind of political pressure and opposition they will face once they are behind the desk in the oval office.

"Every party has its NUT followers. "

exactly, hoboblah...now go back and read here on THIS site -statements made that match EXACTLY ...what was said in the video above by rabid Palin "she's hot"  fanatics and McCain "love-it-or-leave-it" lunatics.

sorry hoboblah...you are among these. 
in your particular case,   your ability for reason and logic has been overtaken by your zipper.  how can you possibly expect anyone to take your "thinking" seriously .... your constant reason for your love affair with Palin is not her ability- (clearly absent) her knowledge (again, not there) managing  experience   (what, that of leaving a hamlet $22 million in debt? or ethics probes, both as mayor and as governor?)  or how about having a vice presidential candidate - who, by very nature of the position being "a heartbeat away from the presidency"  - is shielded by their own party from any open press questions...  come on hoboblah-  take your hands out of your pockets and think. 
I'm sorry, but "she's hot" is not a qualification for Vice President.

Every party has its NUT followers. 

Wanna go over some video footage of the Democratic national Convention?

Thought not.

Dave, luckily, you're a harmless individual.

out.

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=_VjjCn3Wye8

OK, all you Neo-Cons, conservatives, and Republicans.....get ready......Bow down......the time is quickly coming!
(Ameriken, i posted this for you!)

The McCain campaign has gone out of it's way to incite hate and riots.
"Kill him!"
"Terrorist!"
"Sit down, boy!"
...just a few of the comments from McCain/Palin rallies in just the past few days.
To punctuate this -as if to add the stamp of authority, at a Palin public rally Monday, Sheriff Mike Scott , in full uniform, spoke prior to Palin- making reference to the Democratic Presidential Nominee as: "Barack Hussein Obama"-  with clear intent and emphasis on "Hussein".  There is absolutely no doubt the conclusions they wished their rabid audience to draw from this.  Palin herself continued along this same theme by flat out stating that Obama is "pal-ing around with known terrorists". 
The now infamous appearance by Sheriff Scott has caught the attention of federal officials. Scott is under federal investigation for wearing his uniform during the campaign stump, a spokesman for the Office of Special Counsel said on Tuesday.
The Hatch Act of 1939 regulates how certain government employees use their official authority in their private lives...the Sheriff’s Office would fall under the law’s provision if it receives federal funding, a near certainty. He could also face penalties for wearing his uniform or even driving his cruiser to the event.
Palin has been accused for activities in Alaska -using her office, materials, and government time and transportation for campaign activities so it's not terribly surprising- but it's still illegal- just another of those little items that is not in  Ms Palin's knowledge rolodex.
Here is a video that clearly demonstrates the "educated" conservative - you must be so proud, stix, hoboblah, Mr UC...these are your people! 
 http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/09/mccain-palin-rally-attend_n_133240.html

You must be talking about the bridge that BIDEN and OBAMA voted for!!  Yes, that bridge!  You must mean the bridge that Sarah PALIN derailed and killed in a blurry of FISCAL responsibility. 
So where was BIDEN and OBAMAS' fiscal responsibility??  They don't have any.....

Oh wait, facts!!!  I must avert my eyes!!


out.

Sarah Palin, clean slate? If you believe that, I have a bridge in Alaska to sell you. Luckily we won't be subjected to the intellect and insight of the second place beauty queen. If nothing else, Katie Couric exposed her for what she really is: A blank slate. Let's see if Ward Clever will finally man up and stop letting his women do the tough talk for him. What I see is a campaign in total disarray. Poor messaging, poor organization and no internal controls apparently. It doesn't bode well for a hypothetical McCain administration. Because this is McCain's one and only chance at the Oval Office, when he loses, you will hear how F'd up his campaign was in the aftermath.  Similar to what we heard from Hillary's camp when she was defeated.  The best part of that narrative will be the fact that we will hear it directly from the Grandma.  She won't be able to help herself.  She has already gone off the reservation a few times.  Even she sees where this is going.  Plus watching the next crop of republican hopefuls savage her in the next cycle will be oh so sweet.  I brought it up earlier but I want to hear from you cons.  What is the deal with McCain hiring the same people who went after his FAMILY in the sleaziest way possible in 2000 in SC?  Is it a legitimate association we should be discussing if we are discussing Ayers?  Anyone?  Anyone?

Gary,
You are correct in one manner, there will be no money for the "promises" both candidates have made.  that's not a bad thing either. 

It is better to keep the Devil you know, than to get a new Devil you don't know.

If only Barack Obama was a clean slate!!  I might even vote for him if that were true. 

Sad truth is, OBAMA has been bought more times than a tanker of oil leaving port overseas.

The cleanest resume out there is Sarah Palin!  This is why the Liberals despise her.  She is the real deal!!

Go GIRL Go!!

out.

Kevin, this is just a guess but I think maybe there's a timer involved.  Then again i have had short posts fail as well.  Could just be traffic on the server at the time u r posting it.  Yes, always copy be4 posting!.  Sorry to hear about the deletion.  I know how that feels. 
=====================================================================

You cannot forego the economic good to achieve the "social" good.  This is the GLARING  PROBLEM with LIBERALS (OBAMA, BIDEN).  You cannot beat down the PRODUCERS and expect the NON-PRODUCERS to benefit in the long run. 

Of course it may get you elected.  That does not mean the people are being served well.  That does not help the "social" good.

out.

Kevin, you think wrong.  I teach this stuff.  I will defer on a lot of things but you are wrong. Please go read a book- respectfully.

If we pick at part of the New Deal, we fail to recognize the good.  Are you willing to forgo your social security or any of the other programs constituted.  Let's talk welfare- that was a policy that was instituted in England (Elizabethan Poor Laws) with enormous social success in keeping a ready and available pool of low skilled labor that fueled their industrial revolution.  Remember, England didn't have an influx of immigrants.  


However, welfare became over regulated and it was a Democrat who reformed it.  I have my own issues with the Personal Responsibility Act, but I understand the logic and political climate surrounding it.  


So you can't knock down the entire New Deal because one small component wasn't successful.  I do agree with the concept of a redistribution of wealth that sparks consumerism because it invigorates our labor pool (through good health and education), which is good for economic growth.  


Regarding the McCain health care- I can speak to this.  It has long been understood that government subsidizes each component of the class strata in various ways (the poor get public safety net entitlements and the rich get corporate welfare entitlements).  The middle class get a lot of entitlements that go largely unnoticed- ie: no taxes on perquisites awarded through white collar jobs (Beeghley, 2005).  McCain was sneaky because he planned to give this credit for health care, but plans to change the tax code so they are taxed on those benefits.  It's a wash- and it was a sneaky move.  


Ameriken, you seem like a smart person with your head and heart in the right place.  I think you should, at the very least, take another look at Obama.  Ignore the negative ads, which you and I both know are political garbage, and really hear what this guy has to say.  He's really a centrist and I think you would be surprised.

Good golly. UC's comments must not like it when I write novel length comments. Cuz I just did, and it ate it. Oh well. I can't re-write all that, I gotta get back to work. Sufficed to say, I didn't think the supply of money was finite, and I thought Harrysmom got her description of liberal and conservative economic philosophies backwards. Plus, conservatives don't want to "funnel" money to the private sector, they want to leave it in the private sector. Thus, the current bailout bill is not remotely conservative. One thing to leave it, quite another to take it from the American taxpayer and give it to Wallstreet fat cats.

Sigh. Gotta remember to cut-and-paste a copy of UC comments in the future, just in case.

@David (The Conservative One): "But we, as moral and stable examples for the rest of the country, must ask our candidates to please speak to the people in the audience who call for Senator Obama's murder."

You mean the MoveOn.Org, ACORN or MediaMatters plants that turn out to say inflammatory things for sound bites on the nightly news. Those folks?

Yes, they should be repudiated. They should also be called out as left-wing plants. Don't be a sucker.

I don't for a minute believe those folks are serious supporters. If, by some bizarre chance, they are: with friends like that, who needs enemas?

@harrysmom: "Oh Kevin- I've been called a "lady of the night" and had my motherhood questioned.  My definition of chill is to ignore ignorance.  I don't know about you."

But have you ever been called a mother that had your lady of the nighthood questioned?

I just think people who live in tiny little boxes have an opportunity to expand their worldview, and it will redound to their benefit, in the long run. You can take your approach, and I'll take mine. As Thomas A. Harris said, "I'm okay, you're okay."

"This "RESCUE BILL" (that word gets stuck in my throat) is a sham.  I am a sociologist, not an economist, but we know more than your average Joe (sixpack) about the subject.  It seems like a big fat sh*t sandwich to me and it might be the only thing that Obama has supported that disappointed me.  It won't change my vote, but it sure burns. What you y'all think?"

Agreed. "Smaller Government" and "conservative" John McCain also supported this boondoggle. It's putting out the fire with gasoline. It's taking the exact type of thinking, on the government side, that helped contribute to this catastrophe and doing it bigger and better. And that's not even really touching on the 700 billion, that will be used to continue to the process of bailing out poorly run companies that haven't be contributing to the overall economy, just shuffing papers to hit targets and pay out big bonuses. If we want to see how well the taxpayers money will be used by this big firms, just take a look at AIG--a former employee, now consultant, getting paid a million dollars a month, a 500 thousand dollar spa day, and so on. And it will be similarly explained away: "But it's another part of the company. That apparently had enough money to pay for a lot of expensive crap, but couldn't come up with a dime to help the floundering part of the company, so you taxpayers have to do that."

The "bailout" was and will remain bad news, for a long, long time. It's classic Washington thinking: over-regulate everything that doesn't need regulation (judges re-writing loans for banks, just one example) and leave alone the things that ought to be regulated (no more securitized mortgages as financial instruments, the amount of liquid cash financial institutions are required to keep on hand). It rewards bad behavior on Wall Stree and Main Street while only punishing regular folks who played by the rules.

It is a mess, and unless a substantial portion of it is changed and redacted over time, it's going to hurt more than help. I do take some solace in the lessons of history: The New Deal included many programs and policies that deepened and lengthened the depression. But, over time, even the most staunch New Dealer recognized that forcing farmers to slaughter livestock and burn crops in order to artificially prop up agriculture prices was a very bad idea, and that program ceased. To give one example. Nixon helped strangle the economy with wage and price controls, and those disappeared in fairly short order. So, I am cautiously optimistic that the negative effects of the bailout bill will cause a lot of it to be repealed or eliminated in some form.

Ameriken- I hear you on the (*cough) RESCUE bill.  It goes against liberal democratic principles as well.  I teach (college) and this is how I explain this to them- it's my kindergarten version:


Money has to flow.  The faster it flows, the better the economy.  There is, basically, a finite amount of it- but if it keeps moving, we are golden.  Conservative policy is to funnel it to the public sector in hopes that it will encourage business growth and the creation of jobs.  Liberal policy is to funnel it to the private sector in hopes that consumerism and investment will fuel business growth.  Both philosophies have the right idea.  However, these principles work in shifts.  It's good to go one way for a while and then good to go the other way for a while. 


 We were doing really well under Clinton- as we had under Reagan.  (I'm just talking economic policy here).  Since those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it, I think we all need to collectively recognize that a liberal policy is now needed to spark the economy.  


People on here claim that they are able to accurately assess each candidate's economic plan and somehow know better than the press and public intellectuals what it REALLY means.  I think this is part hubris and part ignorance.  I don't fully understand it and frankly, neither do any of you.  But I do know this:  Obama's plan, by default, is based on a liberal economic principle of funneling more income to the private sector as a means to grow the economy.  


The fear of this is, as far as I can tell, residual cultural fear of the welfare queens and lazy bums- which is an adrocentric caucasian viewpoint.  But that's just my sociological lens and I'll bracket that for the moment.


Get over your fear people.  The one thing that really turns me off about the Republican party is that everything seems to be based on fear and lacks real faith in America.  To call me unpatriotic or socialist or whatever is not reveals fear, but calls your own patriotism into question.


See you.

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The latest presidential debate between the candidates was largely based on the economy, which has become the largest of the hot button issues that will be facing the next President of the United States. The winner of the election hinges upon the confidence that voters have in the strategy for fixing the problems that have become apparent in these turbulent times. One of the problems is with the issue of regulation or deregulation. It has become apparent that some regulation of the financial sector is necessary, since deregulation led to the current crunch that we are in. However, how much is too much? Total regulation delves into socialism. One of the lesser known industries that will be affected by the regulation of the financial industry is the payday loan industry. Payday loan lenders across the country are facing more and more regulation from government, which cites “predatory lending” and enormous interest rates that would only be possible if a consumer were to take out a loan every two weeks for an entire year, which most lenders would not allow. Restricting legislation at the national level would outlaw the industry in all but name, and this service which exists to help people in their time of emergency need would cease to be, leaving the only options available to be credit cards, overdraft and resultant NSF fees, bank loans, and other options such as going to loan sharks, none of which are very palatable and get people further over their heads than a payday advance possibly could from most reputable lenders. Do not let the government take away your right to choice even in dire circumstances.
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Carsales- not be all intellectually elite on you and all...but where did you get your numbers?  Why don't you check out the Census bureau where it will straighten out your numbers on welfare, unemployment, small business employment, etc..... 


Hasta la vista

I'd like to see how those who voted for this change will feel in 2 years.  My family may be headed for Mexico. It will be a much better place to live than the U.S. Frightening isnt it...

Do you guys see those rallies?  People yelling all kinds of stuff now.  It's open season on Barack Obama, right?  Say anything, right?  This is really scary to me.  We've seen this movie before in America and it doesn't end well.  Is it any wonder that the same exact operatives that went after McCain and his family in the worst possible way in SC in 2000, are now working for his campaign?  You want to talk associations?  If someone calls into question my family and my kids the LAST thing I would do is HIRE them, as in give them money, to do it to someone else.  There is your judgment and integrity and an association that is actually relevant.

From what I've heard, the reason BO's tax decrease will affect 95% of all Americans, is because those who pay no income taxes will get some of that tax money. 

BO said 95% of all Americans.......not 95% of those who actually paid taxes.

That means those in the middle class who are paying several thousand a year in taxes won't get as big a decrease as they should because people who don't pay any taxes at all will get a free check.  

I could be wrong though....

Obama said 95% of Americans will not see a tax increase.

Let's do the math.

24% receive food stamps, welfare, housing & unemployment.
40% of the working folks pay no taxes
That leaves 36%

Anyone making over 250K per year will get a tax increase.  Many of those individuals own a business and are employing 31%.  Many small business will be forced to terminate 1/4 of their staff in order to pay for these additional 42% in personal & 70% in corporate taxes.  Companies will not be able to service their customers due to the reduction in staff.   Companies will drop health insurance, lower the pay rate and eventually the company will close leaving 100% out of work.   Those who voted for this change will be to blame.

I felt it was a tie. And yes I am a conservative and McCain supporter. But something is frightening me about my party these days. Not any of the policies. It's some of my fellow conservatives. I watch the coverage of Senator McCain and Governor Palin, and I understand the fervor the envoke. I understand the passion these great leaders inspire. But we, as moral and stable examples for the rest of the country, must ask our candidates to please speak to the people in the audience who call for Senator Obama's murder. We can not allow mob mentality to risk the integrity of our party, no matter how much we disagree with the left. We are better than that. I've never been a very big fan of Palin, despite being a conservative, but if she were to ask people to avoid such statements and thinking, she would greatly improve her standing in my mind. If this silent endorsement of murder continues, I may be forced to stay home this election.

@ Mom to Harry......we may disagree on many things, but the rescue bill, no lets call it for what it is.......the bailout.......is totally against conservative free market principles and a total sham. I can't believe so many democrats were for it.

IMO, the bill was not for us taxpayers, but rather it was more for the benefit of politicians who are covering their tracks on the Freddie/Fannie mess, who also want to gain brownie points.: 

-The democrats, with the lowest approval ratings of any Congress, can use a few points with the hope of keeping and gaining seats in Nov.
-Bush, with the lowest approval ratings of any prez, is in dire need of a legacy for the history books. He may have wanted the bill with the hopes of having the history books endear him as the president who saved the economy. 
-The republicans......whether for or against, want to gain back lost seats and perhaps their objections to the bill were to prove to republicans that they were the true conservatives......thus the hope of gaining seats in the election.  

As for McCain and the bill? Nice try John, but you once again have disappointed true conservatives. 

As for me, I called my Congressman (a democrat) who thankfully voted against the bill.....both times. Kudos Mark! 

And by now you've heard the story about AIG execs going on a $400,000 vacation after we bailed them out? I am seething and I hope the greedy bastards pay it all back and then some.

And they are one of the very reasons why I was against it.

Grrrrrrr!

Oh Kevin- I've been called a "lady of the night" and had my motherhood questioned.  My definition of chill is to ignore ignorance.  I don't know about you.


Listen, to anyone interested in reading..........
This "RESCUE BILL" (that word gets stuck in my throat) is a sham.  I am a sociologist, not an economist, but we know more than your average Joe (sixpack) about the subject.  It seems like a big fat sh*t sandwich to me and it might be the only thing that Obama has supported that disappointed me.  It won't change my vote, but it sure burns.


What you y'all think?

@david: "Kevin, as a liberal i have to be honest.  Most of my fellow Americans are very conservative.....one of the few assessments Rush Limbaugh is correct about.  But 28 years of conservative presidents (Clinton was "Republican light") has left Americans feeling that they have been betrayed."

That's fine, as far as it goes. I kinda feel like I've been betrayed. Not by conservatives are conservatism, supply-side economics, tax cuts or capitalism, but by politicians who spend like drunken sailor and regulate everything except what actually needs oversight. The Bailout bill is a perfect example of that. Right there.

"Trickle down doesn't work, except for the wealthy, and "Joe 6-pak" is wondering why he works harder for less."

I think we'll have to agree to disagree here. I side with John F. Kennedy, who said "a rising tide lifts all boats". I think he's right. Government chicanery leading to market distortions are not exactly artifacts of the free market, but rather a manipulated market, and one that is practically designed to be manipulated, for the benefit of big businesses and big government.
"I talked to a neighbor the other day.....typical North Carolina Redneck.....salt of the earth kinda guy.    He said:  'y'know, i think i'm gonna have to vote for the n****r, i'm tired of bein' takien for a fool.'
Excuse the racist term.....but that's just how it was said."

Fascinating, and a little disturbing. While I'm not going to take political advice from a guy who says he's voting for the n-word, I expect Obama will probably win. I'll still vote McNugget (a show of Palin solidarity, as I love Palin) and my state Tennessee will probably go McCain. As NC probably will. But at the end of the day, I think Obama takes this race.

I've made the point before that, historically, there has never been a presidential election with such a bad economy and such low approval numbers for the incumbent president that the incumbent candidate has one--that the presidency has been successfully handed off, in other words. And I don't think this election will "make history" in the sense--I think the opposition party takes it.

And based on McCain's history, and what he's promised to do thus far, I'm not so sure that's a bad thing. At least it makes it more likely that Republicans gain in the house and senate in 2010.

@harrysmom: "Kevin- you don't correct her- you lambaste her.  I'm trusting you don't do the same to your daughter or she will develop such a phobia of math that she will avoid balancing her check book when she grows up.  :)  Chill.  Please."

We have different defintions of "lambaste". I honestly think all the "conservative have no soul and do nothing creative" and dreaming of a world where former Republicans will all deny their former associations in shame as being a little creepy. A neophyte Republican sharing similar fantasies about Democrats would earn a similar descriptive.
Whatever your age, if you're going to dish it out, you should be able to take it. Or stop dishing it.
We also must have different defintions of being "chill", as well. ;)

David- I've heard that same *southern sentiment here in Virginie!  I ask them, as ol' Bob Dylan did- "how many roads must a man walk down before you call him a man?"  We should have been born 10 years earlier.  :)

The thing is it does not really matter who said it, it is a true stement and we are seeing it happen now.

It is probably one that no one will ever know whoexactly said it.

I just us what the quotations site says.   But,I have not looked to hard to see really who wrote it. I migt have to do that when I get time.

I've seen the quote attributed to a book supposedly authored by Alexander Tyler called The Fall of the Athenian Republic, however Snopes says no such book exists in the Library of Congress, nor can the origins of the quote be found.

It also says there is no Alexander Tyler, but rather a Scottish author named Alexander 'Tytler' who has written other books, but none with the above title, nor can the above quote be found. 
So, with what you have and what Snopes has, I am not sure who said it, or if it was even written.

McCain should have gone after all of Obama's connections and shady past. http://www.obamaschange.com shows them all and lays it out.  Check it out.

niko
Tuesday, October 7th, 2008 at 7:56 pm
5

Obama was much more substantive, presidential..
McCain just seems to be more of the same

WOW Niko...you have your bumper sticker memorized!  Good for you!

I hava friend, who is also a historian like me,said it iss attributed to Lord McCauley because it is in one of his book's foreword and does not say who wrote it. So it could be "Alexander Tyler"

Damn these spammers.

bho, as Mcain repeated their propaganda, mainly.
Good, because the terrorists's choice bho repeted his plan intention$ on war, economy, $ocial thing$...



bho'$ACORN-i$ationofAmerica? 



attack by parts: acorn: agent$ factory


Their empires (the one "oSama" "hates": hollywoodsex, defeat war moovies, no God at schools or govs, women rulling house...) are still falling. It wasn't only enron e-bubble.
They still the same modus operandi even today, their "doctors, judges, law people, paralegaland$, citie$, hou$ing, borders, education...
We, the people need to destroy those $ocial thing$, NOW, join the war on terror, on your homeland.
at list part by part, local, national, regional, global. the ussr deathstar was a global system, UN$adam too.
let's make anti-terrorist networks too, globaly.
machines: drivebymedia, justice, political elections, it is an army brought for a single purpouse, that simple: you know, to destroy...
Ah!, amy, get your doctors, ryan and all your paraobhworld out of my family, now.
ted, do you want to worsen your "little sickness"?
mctin?, you still thinking the people of Panama will forget prd is a castro-extension $tate, terror $tate, unfamou$?

Thanks for the link Stix, I'll check it out.....

I heard thatit was from Lord Thomas MacCauley
http://mindprod.com/ethics/quote.html#MACCAULEY

@ Stix #27, I agree, Thompson is a good guy. I just don't think he has leadership skills, nor the energy.

Neither of these candidates are true leaders. Good ideas, experience, knowledge, degrees, honor, and all those things are good qualities.

However, true leadership is rare thing to come by, and neither candidate possesses that skill.

@ David # 22 said:  "spending isn't the root of our $10Trillion Debt.....it's the Bush Tax cuts, which John McCain supports"
And which Democrats also support......quote from CNN Money:

[Still the president's comments were praised by the House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, who pledged that Democrats would work with the administration to pass some kind of stimulus package.
"Democrats welcome President Bush's willingness to work together with Congress to provide urgent relief to the millions of Americans facing economic hardships," she said in her statement. "We have agreed on the need to provide assistance immediately, and Congress will continue to work with the administration to stimulate the economy in a way that is timely, targeted, and temporary."]

Don't let your partisan hatred for Bush blind you from the truth that Democrats are equally guilty for the mess we are in.........

No one won because is wasn't a debate - just another trick by the media to make us think BO is qualified.  Shouldn't these "debates" be open book so McCain can really nail the One on his $1B in earmarks, etc...

Stix, it's a nice quote, and I've seen it before, as it once came to me as an email forward.  It is supposedly attributed to an "Alexander Tyler".

When I get forwards that appear to have something amazing, I research it.
Snopes has something on that very quote and appears to be totally fictitious. The email was passed around during the 2000 election and it apparantly won't die.    

www [dot] snopes [dot] com /politics/quotes/tyler [dot] asp

Ameriken

I am with you on trying to find a real honest and honorable person to run.  The only one I saw come close was Fred Thompson, but look at where that got him

DS

Here is quote that demenstrates your point

"A democracy cannot survive as a permanent form of government. It can last only until its citizens discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority (who vote) will vote for those candidates promising the greatest benefits from the public purse, with the result that a democracy will always collapse from loose fiscal policies, always followed by a dictatorship."

Kevin- you don't correct her- you lambaste her.  I'm trusting you don't do the same to your daughter or she will develop such a phobia of math that she will avoid balancing her check book when she grows up.  :)  Chill.  Please.

David....
The Bush tax cuts aren't the reason for the debt.  Without them our economy would have crashed a long time ago!  Ever heard of 9/11?  The world changed on that day.  We were attacked by Islamic terrorists, and over 3,000 of our people were killed without provocation!  That "demanded a response" which has been responsible for most of the increase in debt since then.  And don't start your whining about the war in Iraq.  We've all heard it before, and it is a lame argument.  Do we "really" care about paying down the debt, or do liberals just like to use it as a political point to win elections?  "IF" (and I mean IF) we really want to pay down the debt, then I only see two ways of doing it.  We either end the tax cuts and raise taxes which we use ONLY to pay down the debt, or we cut spending.  And there's a LOT of spending that could be cut "IF" we're serious about it.  We need to end the practice of earmarks, overhaul all of the out of date and corrupt social programs, and deport all of the illegal immigrants......and that's just for starters.  I think it's obvious which way the candidates would go.  The problem with Obama is that he would raise taxes AND increase spendng!  How do you pay down the debt doing that?  And I think we already pay too much taxes, so the only REAL answer is to cut spending....BIG time!  Let's be honest about it.  Obama wants to initiate socialism, and that is not what most Americans want.  He may win because presidential politics has degraded to nothing more than a personality contest, and a demand for "change".  It doesn't matter what kind of change, just change.  It doesn't matter who your friends are, or how much experience you have.  Just promise all of the handouts you can, recruit all of the young (heads full of mush) voters that you can, and you can be president.  Our country is in deep trouble if Obama wins, and only God will be able to help us.  Well, actually, that's not such a bad place to be!  God Bless America!!

Who won? No one. It was a pretty bad debate.

The two best questions last night were the 'what will we have to sacrifice' and 'what don't you know' questions. 

Neither really answered the sacrifice question, and on the 'don't know' question at the end, McCain was the only one who gave an answer, which I liked. Other than that, both of them reeked of typical politics.

Wouldn't it be nice if we found candidates that were honest and wouldn't distort the records and remarks of the other? McCains 'that one' was snide and a turn off, and Obama just cant get away from referencing the past 8 years. 

This is one of the most disappointing presidential elections I have ever seen.  I don't know who won the debate, however there is a clear loser: the American people. Maybe one day we'll find a competent, experienced,  and honorable leader.

Edward.....
Spending isn't the root of our $10Trillion Debt.....it's the Bush Tax cuts, which John McCain supports.

Nobody won last night!  It was a disgraceful attempt at a townhall meeting.....same old questions and same old answers!  It is obvious that presidiential politics has degraded to nothing more than a personality contest and a desire for "change".  It doesn't matter if you're qualified to be president anymore, or who your friends are!  All you have to do is look good, lie about all of the "handouts" you're going to give everyone, recruit all of the young, heads full of mush voters that you can and voila.........you're president!!   I pity our country and where it is going.  Only God can help us now......but hey, that's actually not such a bad place to be!  God bless America!

I am not an economist. From everything I understand this current economic crisis isn't "ALL THE EVIL REPUBLICANS FAULT!" -- in my opinion until Obama starts talking about McCain and not about Bush I won't hear a word he said...also if he could explain how his spending is going to help us survive that'd be great, from what I understand its just another way to drive us deeper into the hole and create a welfare state, 2 things I'm not for.

I'm a liberal at heart in terms of social issues, but as far as I'm concerned the Democratic majority in congress is plenty. The debate last night, I thought McCain did good, I thought that he needed to be more stern, but overall his activity within the town hall was admirable and most of the people there seemed to respond to his personal approach...perhaps not ideal, but I enjoyed it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAyK-enrF1g

Anger does not suit a real leader.
Leadership does not include anger.

Look a man in the eye.
Call him by his name.
If you are going to attack a man's character, have the character yourself to do it to his face.

What was on display last night was, quite simply, the past versus the future.  I know you cons see it too.  Some of you are man or woman enough to acknowledge it.  Most of you continue to hide behind pathetic rhetoric.  If all you have left is Bill Ayers, you really have nothing.  If war hero John McCain can't man up to a first term US Senator what does that really say about him?  What happened to the maverick?  The second place beauty queen has been relegated to Fran Drecsher, only with a worse accent. 

Man up or shut up.  Or better yet, keep talking because you reveal yourselves more and more everyday.

AS AMERICANS WE ARE ALL TANKING.
WE CANT GET HOUSE MORTGAGES
WE CANT GET COLLAGE LOANS
WE CANT GET CAR LOANS
WE CANT GET CREDIT
SO AFTER ALREADY SPENDING $ 700,000.000.000 ON THIS BOGUS WALL STREET BAIL-OUT / RESCUE PLAN, HOW AND WHERE THE HELL ARE WE GOING TO GET THE MONEY TO FORFILL THE PROMISES OF BOTH OF THESE PRESIDENTCIAL CANDIDATES ?
THE AMERICAN DOLLAR IS NOW WORTH 78 CENTS...78 CENTS: THINK ABOUT THAT...FOR EVERY $ 100.00 DOLLARS WE HAVE,...THAT $ 100.00 DOLLARS IS ONLY WOTH $ 78.00 DOLLARS AND IT IS ONLY GOING TO GET WORSE UNLESS WE THE PEOPLE START MAKING "REAL CHANGES" IN AMERICA.
WE NEED TO FIND A WAY TO BECOME THE SALESMAN AND NOT JUST THE CONSUMER AND THE WAY I SEE IT WE HAVE THE PRODUCT RIGHT UNDER OUR FEET. OIL..&...NATURAL GAS JUST TO START WITH.
INSTEAD OF BUYING OUR ENERGY FROM MIDDLE EASTERN COUNTRIES WE WOULD BE USING THAT MONEY TO TAKE CARE OF OUR OWN NEEDS.
WE SEND $ 700,000.000.000 TO BUY OUR ENERGY WHILE ALL OF THE TIME THE ENERGY IS RIGHT HERE IN AND UNDER US.
WE'RE GOING BROKE BECAUSE WE DEPEND ON OTHER COUNTRY'S TO LOAN US MONEY AND TO SUPPLY OUR ENERGY NEEDS.
THE SOLUTION IS OURS...THE SOLUTION IS RIGHT HERE...
THIS ISN'T ABOUT WASHINGTON DC ANYMORE IT'S ABOUT YOURS AND MINE "MAIN STREET.
IT'S ABOUT WHEATHER OR NOT WE THE PEOPLE WILL BE ABLE TO PAY OUR BILLS AND PUT FOOD ON OUR TABLES AND SEND OUR CHILDREN TO COLLAGE.
WASHINGTON D C AND WALL STREET HAVE TAKEN CARE OF THEMSELVES AND LEFT US, THE PEOPLE HOLDING THE BAG.
ENOUGH IS ENOUGH AMERICA...PLEASE, LET'S WAKE UP AND REALIZE THAT ALL OF THESE CROCKED POLITICIANS ARE OUT FOR THEMSELVES AND THE ONLY WAY EITHER OF THEM WILL BE ABLE TO FORFILL THEIR PROMISES IS TO PASS IT ON TO US.
JUST AS IN THE PAST, IT WILL BE IN THE FUTURE...WE WILL PAY THE BILLS.
REMEMBER ! .... THE AMERICAN DOLLAR IS NOW ONLY WORTH 78 CENTS...
WE THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ARE GOING BROKE AND WE THE PEOPLE  "TOGETHER" ARE THE ONES THAT CAN FIX IT,,,NOT WASHINGTON.

AS AMERICANS WE NEED TO FACE IT,... WE'RE ALL TANKING.
WE CANT GET HOUSE MORTGAGES
WE CANT GET COLLAGE LOANS
WE CANT GET CAR LOANS
WE CANT GET CREDIT
SO AFTER ALREADY SPENDING $ 700,000.000.000 ON THIS BOGUS WALL STREET BAIL-OUT / RESCUE PLAN, HOW AND WHERE THE HELL ARE WE GOING TO GET THE MONEY TO FORFILL THE PROMISES OF BOTH OF THESE PRESIDENTCIAL CANDIDATES ?
THE AMERICAN DOLLAR IS NOW WORTH 78 CENTS...78 CENTS: THINK ABOUT THAT...FOR EVERY $ 100.00 DOLLARS WE HAVE,...THAT $ 100.00 DOLLARS IS ONLY WOTH $ 78.00 DOLLARS AND IT IS ONLY GOING TO GET WORSE UNLESS WE THE PEOPLE START MAKING "REAL CHANGES" IN AMERICA.
WE NEED TO FIND A WAY TO BECOME THE SALESMAN AND NOT JUST THE CONSUMER AND THE WAY I SEE IT WE HAVE THE PRODUCT RIGHT UNDER OUR FEET. OIL..&...NATURAL GAS JUST TO START WITH.
INSTEAD OF BUYING OUR ENERGY FROM MIDDLE EASTERN COUNTRIES WE WOULD BE USING THAT MONEY TO TAKE CARE OF OUR OWN NEEDS.
WE SEND $ 700,000.000.000 TO BUY OUR ENERGY ANNUALLY, WHILE ALL OF THE TIME THE ENERGY IS RIGHT HERE IN AND UNDER US.
WE'RE GOING BROKE BECAUSE WE DEPEND ON OTHER COUNTRY'S TO LOAN US MONEY AND TO SUPPLY OUR ENERGY NEEDS.
THE SOLUTION IS OURS...THE SOLUTION IS RIGHT HERE...
THIS ISN'T ABOUT WASHINGTON DC ANYMORE IT'S ABOUT US.
IT'S ABOUT WHEATHER OR NOT WE THE PEOPLE WILL BE ABLE TO PAY OUR BILLS AND PUT FOOD ON OUR TABLES AND SEND OUR CHILDREN TO COLLAGE.
WASHINGTON D C AND WALL STREET HAVE TAKEN CARE OF THEMSELVES AND LEFT US, THE PEOPLE HOLDING THE BAG.
ENOUGH IS ENOUGH AMERICA...PLEASE, LET'S WAKE UP AND REALIZE THAT ALL OF THESE CROCKED POLITICIANS ARE OUT FOR THEMSELVES AND THE ONLY WAY EITHER OF THEM WILL BE ABLE TO FORFILL THEIR PROMISES IS TO PASS IT ($$$) ON TO US.
JUST AS IN THE PAST, IT WILL BE IN THE FUTURE...WE WILL PAY THE BILLS.
REMEMBER ! .... THE AMERICAN DOLLAR IS NOW ONLY WORTH 78 CENTS...
WE THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ARE GOING BROKE AND WE THE PEOPLE  "TOGETHER" ARE THE ONES THAT CAN FIX IT,,,NOT WASHINGTON.
NO MATTER WHO WINS THE WHITE HOUSE...WE LOSE...
NO MATTER WHO GAINS THE WHITE HOUSE...WE STAND TO LOSE OUR HOUSE.
AMERICA....WAKE UP, WE ARE BEING LIED TOO BY BOTH McCAIN AND OBAMA...

The differences between the two candidates last night were evident and displayed themselves in many ways- verbally, physically and ideologically.
McCain came across as an angry old man with limited physical ability, little physical energy, little capacity for empathy, little inclination to alter his long-held notions, little more than contempt for anyone who dared disagree with him, avoided direct answers to questions asked often, and rude to his "debate" opponent by not sitting down or at least standing still while his opponent took his turn, figiting constantly. He gave the impression overall, that he was speaking "at" people instead of "to" them. Negative impressions.
Obama appeared relaxed, attentive, "Presidential", calm, informed, empathetic, realistic, steady, logical, able to relate on the questioner's level, and spoke to the questions asked.
These are impressions that I heard from others following this forum. These were from Republicans, Independents, and Democrats. The "Presidential" comment actually coming from a Republican.
I do not disagree with these impressions.

"If McCain would himself grow a pair and try to take a stand for conservative principles, then maybe it would have been different."

Kevin, as a liberal i have to be honest.  Most of my fellow Americans are very conservative.....one of the few assessments Rush Limbaugh is correct about.  But 28 years of conservative presidents (Clinton was "Republican light") has left Americans feeling that they have been betrayed.  Trickle down doesn't work, except for the wealthy, and "Joe 6-pak" is wondering why he works harder for less.

I talked to a neighbor the other day.....typical North Carolina Redneck.....salt of the earth kinda guy.    He said:  "y'know, i think i'm gonna have to vote for the n****r, i'm tired of bein' takien for a fool."
Excuse the racist term.....but that's just how it was said. 

As ol Bob Dylan said....."The times, they are a changin'....."

@harrysmom: "Kevin- Amber is clearly a young person developing a sense of the personal is political paradigm."

That's fine. If she wants to participate in a conversation, she's going to get critiqued. It's the nature of the beast.

"Be a grown up and ignore it. "

How is that being grown up? When my daughter gets a math problem wrong, I help her correct it, I don't ignore it. Make more sense, please.

"If you want to take on a liberal, grow a pair and take on the ones that make real points."

Heh. I got a big, swingin' pair right here. Make a point worth refuting.

"Obama won.  You all know it.  Don't try to spin it because you will look foolish."

Yup. Obama won. Some folks may try and spin it otherwise, but he won because McCain isn't actually fighting. They were competing over who would be the biggest liberal when they get to Washington. Obama won that. So we won. If McCain would himself grow a pair and try to take a stand for conservative principles, then maybe it would have been different. At this point, McCain has very little to run on, so all he's left with is to attack Obama and promise that Meg Whitman will be Secretary of Treasury and that he'll make energy hog Al Gore the Secretary of Whacko Environmentalism. Another abysmal performance by John McCain. Another solid performance by Obama.

I think the best likely outcome for the country would be a nationalizing of the 2010 house and senate races by the Republicans, ala '94, so there could be a significant increase in house and senate Republicans to act in oposition to an Obama administration. I'm actually almost worried that the Bradley effect will kick in, McCain will win it, and proceed to advocate his one style of quasi-liberalism and just plain weirdness, and stuff his cabinet and appointed positions throughout Washington with liberals and Democrats, and his continued anti-Conservatism will be seen as reflecting poorly on conservative Republicans, who will continue to lose ground in the house and senate.

I'm beginning to think that maybe conservatives would be better off with Barack Obama in the Whitehouse to work against. Good lord knows, they can't seem to get anything done when they have the presidency, the house and the senate.

Kevin- Amber is clearly a young person developing a sense of the personal is political paradigm.  That's okay.  Be a grown up and ignore it.  If you want to take on a liberal, grow a pair and take on the ones that make real points.


Obama won.  You all know it.  Don't try to spin it because you will look foolish.

"at long last the republican ideology is becoming a joke, i look forward to the day when people deny ever having  been one."


You are very creepy.


I used to be a liberal. I used to be an atheist. I am neither of those things any more, yet I'm not going to deny that I was. Indeed, I remained an atheist long after I ceased being a liberal. Now I'm not. But I don't deny what I was. I used to be in kindergarten, too. I used to go to college. Now, I've been in the working world for almost twenty years. How long have you been working, Amber2?


You're very strange. "Conservatives can't play instruments. Because they have no souls." -- "I look forward to the day when people deny having been Republicans."


What's next? You look forward to the day when conservatives have to walk around with a scarlet 'c' on their shirts? Or perhaps, when the Democratics finally come to round up the conservatives in a sort of final "fairness" solution, you hope that even the trees will call out: "Believer! There is an infidel, dirty Conservative behind me! Take this Republican!"


Obama won the debate. Which was lame. It's kind of like winning a tiny plastic trophy. But, won it he did. He will almost certainly win the election. The Bradley effect being the only wildcard at this point.


But if Amber2 really believes that that will represent some sort of preamble to a wholesale rejection of Republican ideology--or, more specifically, conservatism--she has another thing coming. McCain suffers because he isn't particularly conservative, nor does he subscribe to the Republican Revolution style ideology of Newt Gingrich. Reagan won in a landslide in 1984. He'd win in a landslide against Obama, now, if we had a Reagan. But, we've got McBama. Ooops, I mean, O'Caine. Hmm.


@amber: "a MAJOR recession is right around the corner, thanks in large part to the policy of the right"



McCain's biggest involvement in any future financial problems was his vote on the bailout bill. Before then, he was generally pretty good. He tried to reign in Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac while democrats resisted him (not that that would have, in itself, have put an end to securitized subprime mortgages, but still. This is largely attributable to Democrat policies and the individual action of banks and ratings agency that, at some level, had to know what they were doing was not smart or wise--to the point where just blaming it on the government for "making them make bad loans" is really not a sufficient excuse. 


I point you to a few videos that go into why, exactly, this is a Democrat, left-side-of-the-aisle financial mess. Enjoy. Or don't.

at long last the republican ideology is becoming a joke, i look forward to the day when people deny ever having  been one.

a MAJOR recession is right around the corner, thanks in large part to the policy of the right. The time has come for pointing fingers. McCain doesn't stand a chance.

Neither.  It was just watching stump speeches.  Nothing came out of this other than McCain's idea to bail out home owners.   Other than that it was watching paint dry and boring.


And what was with the questions????   Is this the best that they found???

I think McCain's "That One" just became the Bush 1looks at his watch moment of this election.  Whatever he meant, it doesn't make McCain look or sound good.  US Senators go to great pains to address one another as the distinguished gentleman or at the very least Senator.  "That One" is insulting at the very least.  My question is One what?  He'll be asked to explain that comment and some will focus on it.  The Fox text poll had McCain winning the debate 86% to 12% the last time I checked around midnight.  Drudge had McCain winning at a 2 to 1 clip (64% to 32%)  Beyond that, I can't find another poll that has him winning.  And what happened to all of that tough talk we've been hearing this week?  McCain ran out of there so quickly he left a vacuum.  Maybe his manner of referring to another US Senator or polls or his lack of sack on personal attacks or his quick departure don't amount to much admittedly.  Cumulatively though it paints a picture and it's not pretty.  I'll be interested to see and hear the spin tomorrow when it all sinks in.

the obama pound?  that's weak!

McCain lose big time. Obama was poised, looks very presidential. McCain is in a deadly spiral to no where.

McCain was so disrespectful that he address Senator Obama by "that one". Is he racist? Or he is just a sore loser? He stormed off the debate set while Obama stayed on addressing attendees' concern.

Who won? It's obvious unless you're one of the right wing cronies.

http://theobamapound.com/2008/10/obama-clearly-...

Obama was much more substantive, presidential..
McCain just seems to be more of the same.

mccain

Obama hands down -- though McCain did well.
Obama | Biden '08

What debater were you watching?

mccain...hands down.