BEST COMMENT OF THE NIGHT

***SENATOR OBAMA IF YOU WANTED TO RUN AGAINST PRESIDENT BUSH YOU COULD HAVE DONE IT 4 YEARS AGO!!!!!


McCain is kicking OBama's ass!!!!

UC, I agree that McCain didnt do what he should have done, however I disagree with you on what he should have done. I dont think he should have gone after Obama, I think he should have ignored Obama and just stayed on the path of what he will do as president. He had a good start and I was quite impressed with him, but he fell into his old tactics.

I agree with Brad that the Bush comment was the best of the night, and he should have said it long ago and run his campaign with that. McCain made some good points but should have made far fewer pokes at Obama. 

Obama himself was same ol' same ol' nothing really new or exciting or brilliant, but because Obama delivered his points well and directly at viewers, I would give the win to him.

I don't understand why John waited so long in campaign to kick Tarzan's teeth in. Who was advising him to be so congenial and soft during the first 2 debates? this person, whomever they were may need to have their bank accounts checked for funds diverted from one of many ACORN arms.

Save The Republic from Socialism !!!

Tarzan? Seriously? If that isn't racism I'm not sure what is.

I don't agree with McCain on many of his policies, but the truth is I've had to dig to find out what they are. He spends 85% of the time talking about what Obama would or wouldn't do and throwing out red herrings about Obama's consorts and religious beliefs. McCain rarely presents any vision of his own of where he would take the country. That's why he lost tonight, and I believe he will lose Nov 4 too.

Tarzan?

Tarzan? Seriously? If that isn't racism I'm not sure what is.


Well, I suppose, but Tarzan was a white guy so . . . 


I'd say separate colored and white drinking fountains were a lot more racist than that comment.


I think McCain tied. I gave him an A for effort, so I voted that he won, even though he did lots of stuff I thought was bad form for the debate. But, I took several points off of Obama for looking like he picked today to start growing that mustache he'd always dreamed about. Am I the only one who thought that? I can't be.


I've noted before I like Obama. I particularly admire the way he's run his campaign, and wish McCain had run as good a campaign. I also wish McCain wasn't the most political, most left-of-center candidate since Nixon. If wishes were fishes . . . 


Point is, when it comes down to it, Obama did well in all the debates. He's run a much more coherent campaign, really, than McCain. He's a better speaker, he comes off much better in the debates when you watch them, and he sounds very centrist, although I doubt he will govern that way . . . of course, I also don't believe McCain would govern as a conservative. He's doing well in the polls, historical trends are a hundred percent against McCain here . . . I just don't see it. Unless there really are a lot of bait-and-switch racists in the Democratic party, or polling is way distorted and my own attempt and objectively viewing the race is flawed . . .  I just don't see it. 


Politics, in many ways, is a sales pitch, and Obama makes a much better pitch than McCain. Could be McCain's cookware is ten times better, and cheaper besides, but Obama's sales pitch is a lot more convincing. 


If there is a real surprise in November, I think it will be a lack of coat tails. I think a few races the Dems think are a sure thing will not be. There is an outside chance they will lose ground in the house and senate, rather than gain it. Not likely, but possible, and I certainly don't think there is a general love for the Democrats in congress that there is for the charismatic Obama.


AC: What has McCain ever said about Obama's religious beliefs? Not a damn thing. If you spent so much time looking into McCain's policy positions--such as blanket amnesty and open borders and originally opposing the Bush tax cuts--I figure you would have realized McCain hasn't said boo about Obama's religious beliefs. He refuses to even bring up Rev. Wright.

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McCain painted himself into a corner by aligning with Bush’s policies to get the nomination. The maverick was put into the stable long ago to curry favor with the right wing of the party. Now that it has proven to be the preferred steed, McCain thinks he should be able to hop back on it and ride it to victory. But the old gray mare, she ain’t what she used to be.

I agree with Brad, that was the best comment of the night.

Tarzan?? I feel like I missed that joke...

Although I did hear BHO the other day at a news conference with his wife, "Me Barack, this Michelle." Then he fist pounded his chest and yelled. Maybe that's it.

It's people making comments like "Tarzan" that color the country's perception of the GOP.  While the principles of conservatism are appealing to most everyone, bottom dwellers like "Tony Dee" send people running to the other side.

On the debate--McCain came out really strong, but he didn't have the guts to sustain it.  He needed to hit Obama with everything he had for 90 mins and he couldn't do it.  Instead he settled for making faces and rolling his eyes.  That's not going to do it...

McCain won the debate hands down altho a knockout punch was not delivered.

There are three weeks to go and if he just keeps shakin the Oak trees, the acorns will fall out. 

A vote for OBAMA is a vote for ACORN  ..  no thanks.


out.

Russell-  why do you do this? 
"Although I did hear BHO the other day at a news conference with his wife, "Me Barack, this Michelle." Then he fist pounded his chest and yelled. Maybe that's it."

you know it's a lie- and you do not further your cause by participation in such behavior.

Kevin,  I appreciated your thoughtful impressions of this last debate. 

Televised events such as there are probably more about impressions rather than content for many people.  Those of us who have followed the campaigns of both sides from the beginning have better than a working knowledge of the platforms and proposals - there were no new items presented here last night. 
What we did see is what we have seen in all of the debates between these two:  McCain comes off as angry, frustrated, snide, eye-rolling, grumpy, and dogmatic.  He is the antithesis of that being projected by Obama.   Impressions.  These are what stick with people. 
As far as content in the discussions- everyone wondered how,  or if , the "character associations" and the toxic comments from some attending Palin/McCain rallies would be addressed;  how Obama would react...how viewers would react.
Thud.
That would be the reaction of viewers - much ado about nothing.  Irrelevant and offensive.
 
McCain's statement that "I'm not George Bush" may be  a quote that you recall but Obama's response addressed the statement with ...essentially, you, Sen. McCain are easily confused with Bush because your ideology and voting record says otherwise.  Whatever fire McCain tried to ignite had the effect of using wet kindling and soggy matches.
 
All in all, viewers saw a man who represented old ideas, old methods, and old Washington, trying to repackage himself as someone who has - after 26 years- finally seen the light.   People are not buying what he's selling.  We already saw that movie.  Nobody liked it.

views from conservatives regarding the final debate:

 
Rod Dreher, a conservative Christian columnist, declared the race over to Obama's benefit:

OK, that's over. And so is the McCain campaign. He was more aggressive than he's been so far, and he came close to landing some blows on Obama. But he never really connected, and for the most part this debate was as platitudinous as they all have been. McCain came off as sour, agitated and petulant. Obama -- man, nothing rattles that guy. McCain was two tics away from a vein-popping "You can't handle the truth!" Jack Nicholson moment, I felt. At one point, I thought: Which one of these men would I want in the White House when the 3 a.m. phone call comes in?

And Paul Mirengoff, who writes for the conservative Powerline blog, wrote that:

Ultimately, it seems unlikely that McCain cut into Obama's lead through this performance. And Obama may have taken another small step towards making Americans comfortable with the prospect of his presidency.

Over at Pajamas Media, Jennifer Rubin felt that McCain didn't improve his chance tonight:

At times McCain seemed to connect with a jab or a punch here or there, but his argument at times wavered and his delivery was far from crisp. As for Obama, he was at his calmest and smoothest. If McCain needed to knock Obama off his perch of serenity it didn't happen.

I admit to viewing the debate through a lens, being for Obama from the start, but I am dismayed by the media build up for McCain and the belief that he has shown anything new or improved in the final debate.  McCain repeated the same misrepresented facts while becoming flustered.  If Obama seemed to repeat talking points it was only in response to McCain's repeated accusations that have not changed since the first debate.  If McCain continues to claim the same facts that have been fact checked and proven false since the first debate how can that become anything but a weaker message?  And please, this alleged strong point made that "I am not George Bush", the only thing meritorious there is replay value of a sound bite.  So Obama isn't Roosevelt, but his policies mark a change in the failed policies that have permeated for a quarter century, therefore his direction is similar to Roosevelt and should be acknowledged as a TRUE approach towards saving our economy.  McCain supported neo-liberal economic policy and proposed Bush-like policies that will change nothing.  “Maverick” may be filler language to cover McCain's true republican colors, but this claim of not being Bush?  It is widely understood that the majority of voters that are undecided (and the overall voting public for that matter) want to hear about policy positions, not obtuse comebacks about doppelgangers.

Toe,

I was quite sure nobody reading these posts would take that seriously. I was apparently very wrong. My bad. Yes, I made all that up. No, I don't think BHO swings from vines and talks to animals. You remember the whole "Me Tarzan, you Jane" thing?? You have to admit that was a little funny. You know, funny??? Jokes?? Laughter, if only a small chuckle?? That thing you used to do before you started working for Obama and decided you hated this country? I humbly apologize if my poor attempt at humor hurt your feelings or denigrated the venerable Mr. Obama in any way, shape, form or fashion.

I thought it was another snoozer. As I watched it I realized that these two candidates are the worst we've EVER had, and we couldn't get one good one if they put their brains together! We all know that since the days of JFK, these debates have become nothing more than a personality contest...who looks and speaks best on TV. It is totally obvious who has the best plan for what this country needs, but liberals aren't interested in saving our country.  Let's see....instead of tax cuts so that we can grow our way out of this very troubled economy, we want the guy who is growing to tax and spend us into a depression.  And instead of electing a true leader who is willing to stand up to radical Islam, we're going to elect a socialist who will sit down with Hugo Chavez, the Castro brothers, and Ahmidenajad (I don't care how you spell it!).  We sure are a bunch of smart folks aren't we?!!   

The American people have been "dumbed down" by the left wing educational establishment for this very moment in time! They have had a long running strategy for issuing in socialism, and with the Democrats owning every branch of the government come January, we just may be witnessing the downfall of another great empire.  I hope all of you who have been blindly following BHO will remember what you've done when you're forced to follow sharia law!!

The debate results were predictable, so much so that they mirrorred 2004! Go Figure - Looking at the CBS/NY Times poll in relationship to Zobgy/Rasmussen same day - notice anything amiss?  in 2004: Kerry won all three debates, he also looked presidential and connected to the Middle Class - It's not over, look at the Battleground stats, county remains the same - www.degreesofmoderation.blogspot.com

Gore was ahead of Bush by 10 points right be4 the election.  We all know who got elected, and re-elected. 

Besides the polls are not accurate in that they don't represent true voting.  People will say anything in a poll, but when the curtain draws closed, everything changes.


You think your taxes are gonna go down with OBAMA - they won't, he's lying.  This is the biggest falsehood yet.

You think he can deal with Iran & Russia? - He can't, he's a foreign policy noob.  They will eat him alive after they win his confidence of course. Like taking candy from a baby.

Think he's gonna improve the schools? - He won't.  That's what his "EXECUTIVE" experience was.  Taking 160 million dollars in Illinois as a "community organizer" and FAILING to improve the schools one (1) iota.  By the way, if in fact you want to erroneously argue that he did well in that capacity (lie), then why did he send his kids to POSH PRIVATE schools?  The KINDERGARTEN was 15 GRAND a year alone.  Why?  Why Obama has said when asked, "it was the best option for my kids".  Well thats just dandy, he whips through 160 MILLION dollars, gets NOTHING accomplished and then sends his own to PRIVATE schools. 

You think he's his own man? - he's not, he's been bought and sold by the banking industry already.  Funny that the govt. is now "owning" banks.  What a coincidence.  He's already been paid for. 

You liberals who follow him are the dumbest to come down the pike yet.  You deserve what you "may" get.  With any luck, McCain will win and you will be saved from your own stupidity.

Bank Of Obama  (B.O.O.)

Man of the People my ass. 

The funniest thing is, his loyal flock doesn't have a clue to what is going on. 
Where's his medical records? 
Where's his graduate thesis?
Where's his contribution donor lists?

Drug test the both of them too.


out.

There's nothing like a good, old-fashioned screwball rant to remind us how great internet aninimity is, eh Hoboboh?

"tarzan" comment and follow up by Russell could be construed as racist, possibly also completely innocent. Certainly not funny. Flag-wavers and flag-burners I think would agree with that. Not remotely funny. Comments like that may galvanize a base of  humor-challenged people who prefer ad hominem attacks to actual discussion of policies, but they really alienate people like myself who like to frequent discussion boards and blogs to get an idea of what the 'other' side is talking about. Kudos to those here who stand up against bad jokes.

While the misinformed may see it as a rant, it is the truth and defy you to find any errors.  The truth is difficult but the mature must face it.  That's one of the liberals problems, they never grew up. 

So easily mislead......



out.

Obama finally defined how 95% of Americans can get a tax break when 95% don't even pay taxes: redistribution of wealth.

I've said before that I can never judge a debate, but apparently the polls and pundits say that Obama won.  McCain looked strong at first, and then turned into a curmudgeon, so I had to look away.


I think we need to get off the ACORN thing people.  I mean, when McCain said last night (with Cheny-esque indignation) that "Acorn has perpetrated the greatest voter fraud in the history of this country that threatens to under-mind democracy" I laughed out loud at the hyperbole.  


I'm smelling a demand for a recount folks.  McCain is going to lose and he isn't going down easy.  He's setting it up with this Acorn thing and it smacks of the same pre-setup the Republicans started with Gwen Illif and the veep debates.  Oh well.............

Ameriken, don't be silly! I'm in the lower middle class bracket and I pay taxes.  don't spread lies.  If you want tax data, I'm happy to provide............

hobobobo ho ho- 


#1 um, Obama went to law school.  graduate theses are done in graduate school.  difference.  learn it.


#2 did John and Cindy send their kids to public school?  does any public figure whose kids are followed by secret service?  don't think so.  difference.  learn it.


#3  the redistribution of wealth is called liquidity.  it's a good thing.  trickle down works as long as the fountain pipes aren't clogged at the top.  difference.  learn it.


You are such a sad character hohohoh-ho ho ho bah.

@alex

"tarzan" comment and follow up by Russell could be construed as racist,

You think?? Let me let you in on a little secret, TARZAN WAS WHITE. Now, I personally have no idea what the person who came up with that little gem was alluding to, but it's kinda hard to compare Hussein and Tarzan and call that racist. Oh, wait, you people think any negativity agains the chosen one as racism. That's right, I forgot. How bout spending a little less energy calling everyone racist and maybe try to support that moron's policies. Surrender in Iraq. Tax increases. Tax hikes. Nationalized health care. Redistribution of wealth. The erosion of any freedom related to personal faith (unless of course it is atheism). Tax hikes. Tax increases. Tea with leaders of foreign countries who would like nothing more than to see us all dead. He is a quasi socialist quasi communist power hungry wanna-be dictator. I don't honestly care if he is purple, he is an idiot and his policy would drag this country further down.

Obama sure managed to hold on to his humanist, liberal, illuminati airs last night. McCain was bringing the fire and Barack just sat back and watched it. I wonder if he'll remain so cool and collected if there's a last-minute surprise of some kind.

harrysmom.........I don't appreciate that if something I write is not accurate, instead of asking me to clarify, you prefer to accuse me of 'spreading lies'. 

Well, my apology for being less perfect than you and for not writing so perfectly where the only conclusion you can make is I am spreading lies. 

So, let me try and reclarify: if you refer to my statement that '95% dont pay taxes', let me rephrase it to this: 'the percentage that pays taxes is less than 95%'.

However, I wont attempt to say what the %, since a mistake I would attribute to poor memory, you'll likely attribute it to spreading lies again.

#1. It was his graduate thesis as a senior in Columbia to which I refer.  Learn it.  The accusation still stands.

#2.  In reference to the kids and school and politicians.  McCain doesn't want to take away parents choices when it comes to school.  Obama DOES.  Difference, learn it.
More disingenuous is his relationship with blowing 160 MILLION dollars to "educate" south Chi town and then sending his kids off to PRIVATE SCHOOL.  This is the height of his INTEGRITY?.  He wants choice, but not for you and I.  There's a difference.  Learn it.

#3.  Bankruptcy is also called "liquidity".  the redistribution of wealth is a socialist methodology of destroying capitalist and free market ideas.  Nothing less.  It is not 'trickle down economics".  By making that comment you show your economic ignorance.

Learn from it.

I'm still waiting a rebuttal of merit. 


out.

Ameriken, the people who don't pay taxes is right now at 30% of which 69% favor OBAMA.  Surprised?

Obama's economic scheme (it is a scheme), will raise that number to 44%.  That is economic progress.

Handouts only create slaves in the end. 

out.

I agree hobo... and perhaps so does Thomas Jefferson.....and Obamas plan appears to violate some of Jeffersons wishes:
Thomas Jefferson:

I think we have more machinery of government than is necessary, too many parasites living on the labor of the industrious.   


To take from one because it is thought that his own industry and that of his father’s has acquired too much, in order to spare to others, who, or whose fathers, have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of association—the guarantee to every one of a free exercise of his industry and the fruits acquired by it.


"I predict future happiness for Americans
if they can prevent the government
from wasting the labors of the people
under the pretense of taking care of them."

I am for a government rigorously frugal and simple. Were we directed from Washington when to sow, when to reap, we should soon want bread.

"That, on the principle of a communion of property, small societies may exist in habits of virtue, order, industry, and peace, and consequently in a state of as much happiness as Heaven has been pleased to deal out to imperfect humanity, I can readily conceive, and indeed, have seen its proofs in various small societies which have been constituted on that principle. But I do not feel authorized to conclude from these that an extended society, like that of the United States or of an individual State, could be governed happily on the same principle."

hoboblah, your ideas on taxes are so full of holes and utter crap that they are not even worth mention.  your idea that you are able to exempt yourself from those parts of the constitution that you do not favor are not acceptable...we already have that represented in the white house - people who feel that they are above the law and look upon the constitution as just some sort of suggestion.   
your television appears not to have sound capability- I would suggest that you might invest in an updated model that allows this.  if you had actually listened to the sound (or read a transcript- these are available for those with audio or learning disabilities - (being closed minded, when not caught early can lead to severe and utter failure, dear- help is on the way)  your statements regarding education are not only horribly uninformed, they indicate that your hearing is either selective or non-functional. - go read the transcripts of the debate and listen to what Obama said concerning charter schools.  nobody is trying to eliminate your "choice" to send your child to whatever school you wish- knock it off with your nonsense.
furthermore, a community organizer works on many projects - in many areas- from getting a pothole repaired or a stop sign in place, to helping under (or non) skilled people to train in other lines of work to better their income and thereby their future.  your snotty attitude regarding the valuable work that these grassroots organizations do are rude, selfish, and display an utter disregard for individuals who seek to do the very things you complain constantly that they are not doing- working to better themselves to be productive members of the community and live with pride.

Toe,

Since when has Obama EVER gone against his party line?  the answer is never.  Democrats are against vouchers, which means they are against choice. 

Make something better up next time.


You keep mentioning the constitution when it comes to taxes.  i am still waiting for the reference to people being exempt from their duties in taxes.  You haven't even made a dent in my opinion.  Where exactly does it say you can be exempt from paying?  Who decides this?  be specific.  You're so smart.


out.

As for the "community organizer" bit.  LOOL!!  So Obama gets pot holes filled and he's qualified to run the country?  he was an abject FAILURE as a "community organizer" 

Fols oplease don't confuse the word "organizer" with "uniter".  they don't go together always.  In Obama's case he was and is a POLARIZER.

Luckily Obama and Ayers were inept at their attempt to bring socialism into the publik skool systems of chitown.   The board of educations report on their failure  stated as much.  this is Obama's executive experience!!!  160 MILLION blown and NOTHING to show for it.  His services were no longer required.  translation:  You are fired!! No more grant money for them. 

Quite a leader.

This so called "leader' was invited to sit in with the Pres and others to hash out a financial solution.  Obama said just ONE word.  "Present".  That's one smart dude.

That's real leadership.

out.

@toe: "That would be the reaction of viewers - much ado about nothing.  Irrelevant and offensive."


Irrelevant, I think, is more the key. I'm not offended by McCain's effort in illustrating Obama's associations, so much as non-plussed by them. He didn't connect the dots. I've seen things that at least make a credible effort at connecting the dots, but McCain just basically. "William Ayers and McCain were buddies, and Ayers was bad!" Hmm. McCain's performance was all right. There was enough there that I give him a technical win, but Obama probably won it in 8 of the 10 categories.


"All in all, viewers saw a man who represented old ideas, old methods, and old Washington, trying to repackage himself as someone who has - after 26 years- finally seen the light.   People are not buying what he's selling.  We already saw that movie.  Nobody liked it."


That's possible, but I think more traditional things are involved. The incumbent party suffers when they are in the presidency and the economy is tanking. Low approval records from the incumbent bode ill for the incumbent party candidate in November. Barack Obama is charismatic in ways that John McCain is not. John McCain is not an ideological conservative, or a partisan Republican, which has made him very erratic, prone to flip-flops based on what he think will get him votes, and uncompelling when he starts being conservative or partisan on issues (not to mention hypocritical, when not that long ago he was touting his moderate, maverick, or non-partisan credentials). 


And then some of his campaign decisions. Announcing he was pulling out of Michigan. Huh? Nuts. Frickin' nuts. A completely political calculation that was also politically stupid. Suspending his campaign to focus on the economy for three days? Huh?


Very disappointing. I can't think of another candidate--and I'd include Sarah Palin in that mix--who would have run a worse campaign. Maybe Fred Thompson. Mike Huckabee probably would have been close. But even Huckabee probably wouldn't have announced in a tragically public way he was pulling out of Michigan, even if he did. It's not politically smart.


I'm still voting for McNugget, and I'd bet good money that he will win my state (Tennessee). But I think Obama takes the election. November will probably favor the Democrats, and they will probably pick up seats--but my feeling if there is any kind of upset that remotely favors Republicans, it will be in house and senate races, not the presidential race.

@harrysmom: "'I'm smelling a demand for a recount folks.  McCain is going to lose and he isn't going down easy.  He's setting it up with this Acorn thing and it smacks of the same pre-setup the Republicans started with Gwen Illif and the veep debates.  Oh well............."


McCain will only demand a recount if it's close. The chances of it being close in more than one state are very small, so he'd have to barely lose some state where ACORN was operating, and that one state would have to be the key to securing the electoral win. While not impossible--see 2000--it's not very likely, especially if the poll spread is accurate.

@harrysmom: "#3  the redistribution of wealth is called liquidity.  it's a good thing.  trickle down works as long as the fountain pipes aren't clogged at the top.  difference.  learn it."


I realize that you teach this stuff (which is distressing, but oh well) . . . redistribution of wealth by government means is the opposite of liquidity. Command economies--and to the degree the government decides how much of money you get to keep, and who gets to have the money they take from, that government is a command economy--are inherently illiquid. Capital is not available to independent actors in a free market, except at the capricious whim of government elites. Any liquidity in such a system is temporary and illusory, and liquidity is strangled at every side--from the inefficiencies of centralized control to the inflation that frequently accompanies command economies, where lack of capital if frequently addressed by printing more money. Like we're doing now. Which only helps liquidity so long as the currency doesn't lose value through inflation. 


I dunno. Maybe I'm wrong. But centralized redistribution of wealth, by appropriating it from individuals and private enterprise and selectively funneling it to individuals who do not produce or who are actively irresponsible actors and bad business people who fail, tragically, and thus require a "bailout"--does not sound like liquidity to me. It sounds like it's opposite and will, in the long run, have the opposite effect. There will be less real liquid capital, not more, and what liquidity there is will be reserved for the non-producers and the very worst and most irresponsible actors in the private markets--who are the last people who need to be getting free money from the government. 


My 2 cents. Worth approximately what you paid for it.

@ Kevin # 37.........2 Thomas Jefferson quotes worth reposting regarding redistribution of wealth:

"I think we have more machinery of government than is necessary, too many parasites living on the labor of the industrious."   
"To take from one because it is thought that his own industry and that of his father’s has acquired too much, in order to spare to others, who, or whose fathers, have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of association—the guarantee to every one of a free exercise of his industry and the fruits acquired by it."

#1. It was his graduate thesis as a senior in Columbia to which I refer.  Learn it.  The accusation still stands.
Again, that would be an undergraduate thesis.  tool.
#2.  In reference to the kids and school and politicians.  McCain doesn't want to take away parents choices when it comes to school.  Obama DOES.  Difference, learn it.
More disingenuous is his relationship with blowing 160 MILLION dollars to "educate" south Chi town and then sending his kids off to PRIVATE SCHOOL.  This is the height of his INTEGRITY?.  He wants choice, but not for you and I.  There's a difference.  Learn it.
Oh, so you weren't being literal in your critique?  Just metaphoric indignation I guess.  How did he "blow" 160 million?  Please tell.  did he buy a lot of coke?
#3.  Bankruptcy is also called "liquidity".  the redistribution of wealth is a socialist methodology of destroying capitalist and free market ideas.  Nothing less.  It is not 'trickle down economics".  By making that comment you show your economic ignorance.
No, you show your ignorance by assuming that I equate wealth redistribution with trickle down theory.  
I'm still waiting a rebuttal of merit. 
You wouldn't know one if it hit you in the face.

yeah!  of course, Mccain won!  working to earn your own money and not accepting handouts is called honest earned liquidity.  on the issue of economic plans.  the truth is that i have never been hired by a poor person.  if it weren't for that pesky little issue of the global economy, Obama’s plan to create jobs still wouldn't work.  how can you create jobs when you give money (welfare) to those who don't pay taxes and give a check to the middleclass of about $500 or 1,000 per year?????  that is my question!  even if it was a few thousand dollars, how does this create the kind of jobs we need in this country?  how does this encourage people to get an education and better themselves like i did?????  their theory is that those folks will spend the money and jobs will be created to produce the goods and services.  i have studied economics and watched the economy for years and years.  what about the need for businesses to compete overseas to sustain themselves and grow?  if Obama's plan was the answer and it was this simple and businesses would prosper and create jobs by this relatively little amt of money going back into the system, why would businesses need to do business overseas????????  well, the answer is that most of the businesses in the U.S. MUST be able to sell their products overseas to stay in business.  with one of the highest tax rates in the world, we can't compete as we need to and people lose jobs.   GM is laying off 1500 employees.  now under Obama's plan he would give folks about $1,000 dollars.  how long will that sustain the layed-off plant workers?  if they spend this money, will people be able to buy cars and the workers get their jobs back???????  NO!!!!!!!!!!!!  It is a little more complicated than that!  would now be the time to raise taxes on GM?  i don't think so!  right or wrong the rich protect themselves and the folks like you and me will suffer.  Companies pass the higher taxes on in the form of higher prices paid for goods and services.  They do not actually have to pay anything more—we pay for it all!   so is this plan sticking it to the rich people?  ha!  quite the opposite.  we are going to pay higher prices for everything under Obama's plan.  so those idiots who like taxing the wealthy will just love the repurcussions of their stupid decision to vote for Obama.  Those folks should be willing to shell out the price differences to people like me who actually understand the plan and vote against it.  How is this helping the country? 

did anyone hear Biden in his debate say he and Obama would be willing to put on hold their plan to double foreign aid?   Well, isn't that nice of them!  wow!  forget keeping the money to help the citizens of the U.S.  they want to send it overseas.  yeah, we are in a war and are not watching the spending and both parties are at fault.  where are the watchdogs on both sides??  So more money should go where and to whom? 

i don't think John McCain should have to explain all of this in his economic plan because we as citizens should be smart enough to figure this out.  for adults it should be common sense and as simple as tying shoes.  oh, i'm sorry i keep forgetting how stupid some folks are.   i think John Mccain has done an excellent job of talking about his plan but he doesn't go into detail.  I think he gives those folks opposing his plan way too much credit and thinks they will eventually understand and get the picture.  ha!  obviously not!  so democrats in your quest for change we will definitely lose jobs and cause this country to fall further into a recession leading to a depression.  what will you say then?  it is the republicans fault?  has anyone listened to the hearings when Barney Frank testified there was nothing wrong w/Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae and those who dared questioned him were basically barking up the wrong tree??????????????  so i think all is to blame here.  we don't need 4 more years of crooked democrats and republicans.  where is the common sense? 

i heard some folks on these blogs talk about how republicans are stupid and we believe anything they tell us.  well, i'm very educated in the financial world and live it everyday and i also do my own research so i understand more than the basics and care about how Obama's plan will affect every American family and not just my own.  unlike a lot of folks in this country, i actually look out for others. 

i quit commenting for a while because of the stupid comments.  in particular one of the last ones i received.  someone said that if my father who owns a small business earned more than $250k, he could afford to pay more taxes.  I cannot believe how stupid of a comment that was.  He puts the money right back into his business and buys more products to sell expanding his business and hires more people!!!!!!!   So you stupid democrats, vote for Obama so my father can shut down his business, lay off employees and take a vacation.  He has not had one in 40 years because he concentrated on trying to build his business and employ people.  That is smart, huh?  How many other businessmen will follow?  I can tell you there will be thousands and i personally know some of them.  Good luck in finding a job then!  what morons!  some comments are just too stupid to respond to, much less read.  

i think Obama and Biden are pretty intelligient men--they have been able to convince people their plan is the right plan.  ha!  now that is a lie and immoral but what is the harm in putting people out of work while they live in the lap of luxury in the whitehouse and enjoy the power with Pelosi and Reed?

Sorry Ameriken, you aren't spreading lies.  It was a joke.  I'm still getting the hang of this second life personality thing.  


Everyone pays taxes.  Some get a huge break on federal taxes.  Each person/entity is assessed a federal tax, but some get to chip away at it for various reasons (kids, interest, medical and educational expenses, being a corporation.............etc.)  The current tax code is fuct.  However, everyone is responsible for taxes and it's perpetuating the same myth as the welfare queen to say otherwise.  You are not a liar.  You are misinformed.  :)


better?

yeah!  McCain definitely won!  He does not have the perfect economic plan but a better one.  He did a great job of explaining it and I think Obama made a fool of himself.  if it weren't for that pesky little issue of the global economy, Obama’s plan to create jobs still wouldn't work.  how can you create jobs when you give money (welfare) to those who don't pay taxes and give a check to the middleclass of about $500 or 1,000 per year?????  that is my question!  even if it was a few thousand dollars, how does this create the kind of jobs we need in this country?  how does this encourage people to get an education and better themselves like i did?????  their theory is that those folks will spend the money and jobs will be created to produce the goods and services.  i have studied economics and watched the economy for years and years.  what about the need for businesses to compete overseas to sustain themselves and grow?  if Obama's plan was the answer and it was this simple and businesses would prosper and create jobs by this relatively little amt of money going back into the system, why would businesses need to do business overseas????????  well, the answer is that most of the businesses in the U.S. MUST be able to sell their products overseas to stay in business.  with one of the highest tax rates in the world, we can't compete as we need to and people lose jobs.   GM is laying off 1500 employees.  now under Obama's plan he would give folks about $1,000 dollars.  how long will that sustain the layed-off plant workers?  if they spend this money, will people be able to buy cars and the workers get their jobs back???????  NO!!!!!!!!!!!!  It is a little more complicated than that!  would now be the time to raise taxes on GM?  i don't think so!  right or wrong the rich protect themselves and the folks like you and me will suffer.  Companies pass the higher taxes on in the form of higher prices paid for goods and services.  They do not actually have to pay anything more—we pay for it all!   so is this plan sticking it to the rich people?  ha!  quite the opposite.  we are going to pay higher prices for everything under Obama's plan.  so those idiots who like taxing the wealthy will just love the repurcussions of their stupid decision to vote for Obama.  Those folks should be willing to shell out the price differences to people like me who actually understand the plan and vote against it.  How is this helping the country?

hoboblah,  your comments saying those individuals "not paying taxes should not be allowed to vote"  are the tax related statements to which i made reference.  
government entering into the business of the issue of vouchers- heads to problems constitutionally.  now, i know that this little fact does not bother you since you tend to exclude little items like facts- but here's one for you: 95% of private schools are religious. 
obama has stated,  in no uncertain terms,  that he  is not in favor of a voucher system provided by the government for this very reason.   it's called the 1st amendment.  beyond this, private schools  can show favoritism or discrimination in selecting students whereas public schools  must accept everyone regardless of disabilities, test scores, religion, or other characteristics.

furthermore, hoboblah-

your horribly misinformed self has yet again been displayed  with regard to your comments as to the activities and participation and, yes,  leadership displayed by Obama during the phony McCain pretend suspension of his campaign and the "bail-out" to-do's.
Obama, after reading the initial proposal put out by Bush - said this was entirely unacceptable and set out a number of items that he felt were essential and needed to be included before any consideration could be contemplated.  He agreed that the urgency for action was too important to allow partisanship or to have a presidential candidate's appearance there causing a distraction would not be productive.  Obama had no intention to come to Washington at this point since he was not on any of the committees.  Obama was in touch multiple times a day with the primary individuals involved in formulating a counter to the initial proposal.  At this point, McCain had not even read the initial proposal ... all two and one half pages of it.  McCain went off half-cocked and uninformed creating a mess  ruining work that had taken over a week to arrange.  Bush, (whether he saw on his own, or at the request of McCain) decided to have  BOTH candidates come to the White House for - what was essentially a photo op.  When McCain was asked his views- he said nothing preferring to pass this question to a staffer.  Obama then was asked his input- whereupon Obama repeated the items that he wanted to see the counter proposal address. 
The lack of leadership and mania displayed by McCain during this period is probably the single largest reason why his numbers began their dive. The man was absolutely erratic and clueless.
 
These are the facts, hoboblah, and are well documented despite your impressions given above.

the fact that anyone is praising McCain for his performance in the third debate proves that he and Palin have lowered people's expectations down to nothing (don't forget, the VP debates were a tie!)

It was not even close.  This isn't my site, but I thought I'd post it here, as it's something I think really clearly defines the candidates and what they stand for.

http://jgpointofview.blogspot.com/2008/10/ready-to-fight-ready-to-lead.html

Toe, your tax related amendments didn't address the argument.  Those amendments are not applicable.  Try again.  You can't.  Try anyways.
==============================================
Harrysmom,

YOU said: 
#3  the redistribution of wealth is called liquidity.  it's a good thing.  trickle down works as long as the fountain pipes aren't clogged at the top.  difference.  learn it.

THEN you said:
No, you show your ignorance by assuming that I equate wealth redistribution with trickle down theory.

You are confused and all over the map on this one.  You actually teach this poppycock?   VOUCHERS NATIONWIDE FOLKS!!

About the 160 MIILION that OBAMA blew.  No, he didn't buy a lot of coke.  Why would you assume that? 
The monies were given to IMPROVE the schools in his area.  They went through the money just fine.  Problem was with NO results.  A FAILURE to do what was right.  Then to top it all off he whisks his kids away from the very schools he was entrusted to improve.   Maybe if he put the money to improve math and english, but no, they tried to  bring "socialism" into the classroom.   Nice try, but it doesn't help kids get a job or able to fill out a resume without revealing what a horrid education they received.

out.

Quite a guy.

hoboblah, your views and outrageous accusations are increasingly rabid.
you remind me of those fanatics attending the Palin rallies.  i find you equally dangerous.

Toe,

Let me translate your last post.

"I can't find any reference to the redistribution of wealth in the Constitution.  Leave me alone."

Figures.

out.

we have a progressive tax-  this is your bugaboo-hoboblah.  
it has nothing to do with your "re-distribution of wealth" crap.

you are as trite as your reguritation of extreme right wing talking points, hoboblah.  if you are making under 250,000 per year- and still opt to vote against your own self interest-  go ahead.  
i am tired of your manufactured "facts".  
i am tired of your selfish verbiage.
i am tired of you repeating KNOWN LIES to further your invalid statements.

Wash Post comparison of McCain vs Obama tax plans.  
www.   
washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2008/06/09/ST2008060900950.html

The way I see it, is both of these guys are way out of touch. We're on the hook in the market for nearly 1 trillion. We have a 5 (?) trillion dollar deficit. The economy is shrinking, jobs are being lost, money is being lost in the stock market which affects capital gains taxes, etc etc etc and this means that Fed revenues are probably already shrinking. 

In the second debate, someone asked what we as Americans will have to sacrifice to get this economy straightened out. Both dodged the question.
If McCain and Obama were to be honest (which they are not) they'd tell us to forget about tax breaks because there are more important priorities in getting the economy straightened out and that we're all going to have to suffer for a while......that it may get worse before it gets better.

I'd rather hear that than to hear them talk about giving us freebies,  because thats the reality. And neither of them is talking about finding out who those people are in both parties that are responsible for allowing this to happen.

But they are probably to afraid to lose votes, and after all, winning an election is more important than being truthful. 

Whoever is elected will soon tell us that tax breaks will have to be put on hold. Of course, that speech will come after inauguration.

I'm sorry, but how do you liberals explain Obama's membership in the openly socialist "New Party" in the mid 90's.  This is no baseless claim, there are archived web pages to prove it.

 LINK

http://watchingamerica.com/News/8915/america-get-out-today-and-not-tomorrow/


written by iraqis

how few americans understand their imperialism and what it does to a society

and all for oil ie black gold

as i read the comments from the repubs it is easy to see the difference.

the repub mentality is me me me all about me

it is a new soul older soul thing

newer souls are very selfish

it is so easy to see the difference

now one per cent of americans have more wealth than the lower 90%

border on revolution but that will take years

few will understand my words

we now borrow from socialist, communists, and kings
to make our brand of capitalism work

with communism man exploits man with capitalism
it is the other way around

we are witness to that self destruction now

the world watchs and smiles at our arrogance

as we blame each other in our ignorance

You are right hoboboboblah blah.  I miswrote that and it was unclear.  I do teach this poppycock.  You seem to have a problem with educated people....chip on your shoulder perhaps?


I was joking about the blow dude- chill out.  
Bushie was given trillions to improve schools through the "no child left behind act" and blew that.  Trust me, this I am personally witness to.  There's not a college professor, liberal or conservative, who will laude the "no child.....act" .  There's few parents that will laude it either.  It's a farce.  It should have been called "leave the poorest kids behind act."


Just a question- you got kids?  you struggle with a budget?  if the answer to both is yes, then the fact that you get the hots for vouchers makes you a bonehead.  Otherwise, it makes you uniformed.

Researcher- I heart you.

Researcher:  i understand your words completely and would agree with you if you were speaking about the democrats.  The democrats are a "me" group.  I read a blog today where a democrat said he/she could not wait until Obama gets to be President so he/she could receive his/her money.  the blogger said he/she deserved it.  that is called welfare.  that person was not concerned about others and that is what i hear from democrats all of the time--"what is Obama going to do for me and how much money do i get."  when i have asked why they deserve it or didn't they think the money could be used to help this country get out of debt, the answers are always similar.  "i don't care and only care about myself."  i hear this from so many people.  I'm a republican and understand the economy and the plans for both sides.  Obama said in one of his speeches that these are hard times and everyone will have to make sacrifices.  so tell me how the people who are stealing money from others without working for it are sacrificing.  he didn't explain that one.  he just talked about the sacrifices people who actually earn a little money are going to make under his plan but tried to make it look like the middle and lower income folks (40% don't pay taxes) are going to sacrifice right now too!  that was dumb and stupid.  during a Biden speech he said they would be willing to hold off in doubling the foreign aid they originally planned for.  now how is that helping the american people?  explain that!  i think any money should go to help us get out of this mess and to create jobs.  I am in the investment world and have studied the markets and the the economy for years and years.  it is what i do for a living.  Obama's economic plan will hurt 90% of americans because companies will not pay the higher taxes.  they will pass the increase down to their products and services and lay people off.  OBAMA'S PLAN WILL ENSURE WE NORMAL FOLKS WILL PAY HIGHER PRICES FOR EVERYTHING WE NEED AND PEOPLE WILL LOSE JOBS!  so if someone is a true republican they are looking at the total impact of Obama's plan to the average working person and family.  it will be devestating.  i don't call that selfish.  the "gimme" attitude from the democrats is selfish.  Most of the time if a person is reasonably healthy and able to learn, he/she can earn a living and control their lives.  I chose to increase my earnings by getting an education and hardwork while dealing with circumstances that most people would have not endured.  i'm just saying people have choices.  i also chose my career and the number of children i had.  that is MY CHOICE.  Others can do the same.  i can say that 40% of the people do not pay taxes so they do not pay for the services they receive.  they do not help support our soldiers who are fighting to protect this country all over this world.  if they are perfectly healthy, they should contribute.  that is selfish!  i can, however, agree that there is greed at the top and people need to go to jail that have taken advantage of people.  however, i see greed at the bottom also.  through the years i have tried to help a friends of mine who are horrible with their finances.  several were buying homes with no money down and no savings in the bank.  i tried to tell them they could not afford a home and explained why and begged them to please wait a year or so to ensure they had the money for their own security.  they were democrats and in the "i want it now" mode.  well guess what?  they are barely surviving, which is exactly what i told them would happen from the beginning.  also, i can't count how many times i have tried to tell people not to buy new cars because they could not afford it.  their response was "well i deserve it and want what i want."  so you give money to these middle and low income folks (steal from others) and it will do no good!  they never learn.  i have counseled people and it becomes a joke because they complain about money and in the end I find out they just want handouts and are unwilling to sacrifice for their own good and their family's welfare.  so this republican does care about others and money will not solve their problems.  they solve their problems.  it has become an entitlement society.  the economics are easy to understand.  Obama's plan will not work even before any consideration is given to competition from overseas.  the democrats want their cake and eat it too and are willing to make others suffer unnecessarily in the process.

The American Conservative Magazine's blog has a great piece about this debate, and why so many conservative blogs get overrun by Democrat scum after debates. The leftists are out trying to hype themselves and eachother up into actually thinking that NObama and his policies have a chance against the McCain campaign. Heres a link to the blog:

http://tinyurl.com/amconmag-com-blog-2008-10-16-t

Joe 6 Pack:  i will check this out because i'm sick and tired of stupidity and ignorance and the democrats not discussing the real important facts.  i may have missed some blogs here but i haven't seen many democrats discuss the economic plans.  they will only try to pick apart a few things but ignore the rest.  of course that is the most important issue today.

That is a filthy site and is trash!  There are people who actually have class and you are not one of them.

We must all unite against Obama on November 4th
He is a black Muslim with ties to terrorists.
If he is elected he create conditions that will allow Osama Ben Ladin to escape.
He will pull our troops out of Iraq and cause us to lose a valuable source of oil and a launching pad war with Iran.
He will raise our taxes
He will permit teachers to teach sex to grade school kids.
He will ban the word God from the Pledge of Allegiance.
Vote NO on OBAMA

Noorish, 

You are actually a cartoon, right?
Somehow, you managed to jump off of the funny pages and into real life.
How did you do that, inquiring minds want to know.

Re Thursday's comment that "Gore was ahead of Bush by 10 points right be4 the election":

This smelled fishy to me, so I pulled up the poll data:
9/8/00 CNN/USA Today/Gallup tracking poll - Gore 46%, Bush 43%
10/6/00 CNN/Time poll - Bush 47%, Gore 45%
10/27/00 CNN/Time poll - Bush 49%, Gore 43%

So much for that assertion.  Miraculous last-minute comebacks are hard to come by.

here yah go Greg ..  just exactly my point with polls.  Everyone can predict what t
Gore Leads Bush by 10 Points in National Poll
U.S. Democratic presidential candidate Al Gore led his Republican rival George W. Bush by 10 percentage points in a national presidential poll released Friday.

The Newsweek poll of 755 registered voters showed that Gore led Bush by 49 to 39 percent, Gore's first significant lead of the 2000 campaign.

The poll also showed that Green Party candidate Ralph Nader had 3 percent and Reform Party candidate Pat Buchanan had 1 percent.

The poll was conducted by Princeton Survey Research Associates Wednesday and Thursday.

According to the poll, Vice President Gore led Texas Governor Bush on most key issues, including the economy and jobs, Social Security, education and moral values. Bush scored better on national defense.

History showed that the presidential candidate significantly ahead in the polls around Labor Day has won every election for the last 50 years. Labor Day falls on Monday.

More national polls are expected to come out next week to give a clearer picture of the presidential race.
hey want.  It doesn't equal a correct conclusion however.  This is from CNN...



Okay?  enuf said.



out.

Labor Day, as I recall, was 7 weeks ago.  It is certainly still possible that McCain will stage a shocking comeback, but Gore's cited 10-point lead began eroding by early September, and had completely evaporated by the beginning of October.  McCain now has two weeks to erase what looks to be, based on aggregate polling data, like a 6-7 point Obama lead.

This election is by no means over, but using the argument that Gore was 10 points ahead of bush "right before the election" to discount Obama's current lead in the polls is a canard.

Hopefully, people will start to "get a clue" after if they listened to the statement Obama put out today in response to a McCain speech.  Obama said today that he would not give people money that didn't pay taxes (untrue).  McCain said that Obama was not telling the truth about his tax cuts for 95% of Americans.  (Smart people know this true.)  He said 40% of folks do not pay taxes anyway so that is giving folks money they didn't earn in the first place.  (True according to economists and common sense.)  So, let's do some addition = .95 + .05 = 100% so we all know there are a lot of people who don't pay taxes and where are they talked about in Obama's plan?  Obama accounts for tax changes for 100% of Americans and he says people who don't pay taxes won't get welfare??????????????  hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!  the people who are voting for this jerk are buying into the fact the there are more than 100% of people in the US or they are uneducated and bad at math?????????????????????????????  what's the deal here?  have the schools and parents been doing that bad of a job in teaching their kids the basics of math?

Ameriken, you call people out of touch but the you invoke Jeffersonian wealth redistribution theory- which was kinda patriarchal and androcentric.  


Kevin, sorry if you think I'm scary, but I am a teacher.  But to put your mind at ease, I am not an economics teacher.  In fact, I disclaim that econ is my my area of expertise and I review the basics.  I do know that any way you get money moving is liquidity.  Economists think it can only move through private industry.  Socialists think it can only move through the government.  Sociologist think it should be moving through the people.  That's my basic understanding in a nutshell.  If it scares you, I'm sorry- but the world doesn't work from only one perspective- now that would be scary!

Everyone does not pay taxes!  Some people work and end up paying only  Social Security taxes, which can be discounted in helping fix this economy right now.

Stupid fucking Republicans

a picture is worth 100,000 words:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/18/obama-rally-in-st-louis-d_n_135826.html

Hey there Norrish Hall





We must all unite against McCain on November 4th
He is a white supremacist  with ties to criminals.
If he is elected he will compel conditions that will force Osama Ben Ladin to attack us again.
He will leave our troops in Iraq and cause us to lose a valuable source of human lives and money that we don't have.
He will raise our taxes.
He will permit teachers to continue to not teach.
He will force his version of God from the Supreme Court.
Vote NO on McCain.

Titus rational argument before the second Iraq war, we warned you (bad idea, not a threat, expensive, bogged down ect). We where shouted down, called un American ect . Now you backward idealogy has brought America to its knees and now you want to talk.

To one and all. I am not sure anyone won the debate because they are so scripted I don't think either candidate had an opportunity to truly be themselves, but Sen Obama stuck with the issues and did not result to personality bashing. It's not John McCain and conservatism but the GOP on trial this election. Why? Because real wages have declined in the last 8 years and costs for durable goods have increased.  A democrat left the country with a surplus and a republican has nearly bankrupted us. What is wrong with this picture? Enron, Tyco et al were the poster children for deregulation and they produced lost jobs, lost hopes and jail sentences. Wall street firms were "leveraged" 30:1 or better; yet nobody cared because the rich were getting richer. In "real people" terms that means if you make $30,000 a year you have $900,000 in debt. I have been invested in mutual funds for 17 years and I haven't made millions. Oh, yeah...that's because I had to empty my acct to help my parents because they lost most of their retirement when the stock market crashed after 9/11. People go bankrupt due to health costs but we are behind every other western nation in preventable disease. I do not give a rat's a** what my taxes do as long as we as Americans can have a descent standard of living. Conservatives always talk about how they are good Christians; well Christ said "feed my sheep". I don't believe he mentioned that if the sheep were more industrious they would not need to be fed, but maybe I need to read the scriptures more closely. SOMETHING HAS GOT TO CHANGE!!!! The ultimate definition of insanity is doing the same thing in the same way and expecting a different outcome. If Barack is elected and screws everything up and the country goes to hell, I'll offer a mea culpa in 2012, until then I'm ready to try something new and I don't think John McCain is it. PS hoboboh? From 1998 to 2005 2/3's of all companies paid no taxes, zero, NADA, zilch for atleast one if not more of those years. (this is data from the IRS a nonpartisan organization if there ever was one). The 30% of people who pay taxes are the middle class so giving the richest 1% tax breaks does not help them to pay less taxes because most of them pay little, if any taxes.  As far as people saying one thing and doing another, Pres Bush said he would unite not divide the country and; just by reading this and other internet blogs, we can see how well he did; so I don't think democrats own the patent on not fulfilling campaing promises.

titus did you vote for bush

if so your an idiot,  and you should ask for your money back, or  your very wealthy, in which case you should embrace your greed

Titus your just wrong, degrees and all

Titus said @67:
"the people who are voting for this jerk are buying into the fact the there are more than 100% of people in the US or they are uneducated and bad at math?????????????????????????????"

Sorry that i am not as smart as you...
But how do you arrive at more than 100%?

Titus- where I disagree with you on, well, almost everything...I do agree that schools have been doing a crap job of education.  Thanks GWBush, for your 'no child left behind' edict.  Our educational system has dropped from 3rd in the world ranking to 11th.  ELEVENTH!!!!!!! get it?


And I would like to speak to McCain's most favorite line from the debate last week:




"I am not George Bush.  If you wanted to run against George Bush, you should have run four years ago." ....and then he smiled like a kid who had just won a teddy bear at a rifle range.


Well, let me respond with what Obama SHOULD have responded with:


Senator McCain, if you didn't want to be associated with George Bush and his political philosophies, then why did you run for the Republican nomination?  You have tried so hard to get the Republicans to like you that you have embraced everything they hold dear: deregulation, war, government intervention in matters of sexuality, and class warfare ideologies.  You cannot say that you are not George Bush and cannot divorce yourself from his policies as long as you are the Republican nominee.  You represent the same party that got us into this mess.  If you didn't want to run on George Bush's record, then why didn't you run as an Independent?

Amber:  First of all it is none of your business who i voted for in the last election or any other one.  degrees are meaningless for people sometimes because they lack common sense.  i meet those kind of folks everyday.  i guess you like Obama's plan of giving double the amount of foreign aid?  since this bailout bill was passed, Biden said in his debate they would consider postponing it.  well, wasn't that nice of the idiot!  we don't need the money in this country anyway, right?  we have plenty already. and everyone is just fat dumb and happy living in their riches in this country, right?  Every American in the US has no less than 20 brand new cars sitting in the driveways of their mansions living in the lap of luxury.  everyone has so much money that we are just trying to find ways to throw it at other countries, right?  ha!  Are the democrats on board with this allocation waste?  who in their right mind would trust such fools to run our country?  as Obama said $17+ million dollars in pork barrell wasteful spending is not much money.  how disrespectful was that to the american people, esp at this time with our economy?????????  does this say anything about the way Obama thinks about us?  I'm insulted that he has no respect for my hardearned money.

Harrysmom:

yes, i get how far behind we are in the schooling of our children.  however, the problem WILL NOT BE SOLVED BY MONEY ALONE!  if schools have to have police in them to protect the children from each other, that is a problem.  Children bringing guns to school is a problem.  Having to protect children from the outside world is a different story entirely.  My son grew up in the public school system and is now in a public college so i know the realities of the system.  here's the difference:  as a single parent raising my son with no help working a full-time job and going to college taking a full load, i still ensured i was there for my son and understood what he was learning and needed to learn.  if i could not help him, i made sure he got afterschool help from teachers or someone who was better at the subject than i was.  i would NEVER let my son go to school without breakfast and have had to work 70+ hours a week at low paying jobs to ensure i took care of him.  he will tell you now that i was there for him and was an example though i was not perfect.  money can't buy parental involvement but it can provide mandatory parenting classes.  my involvement was the reason  why my son always scored high on his end of the year tests.  he didn't always like school and would not have always done his homework.  he was more afraid of the punishment he would get at home than from his teachers.  (i grounded him for long periods (didn't spankhim) along with my lecture).  he would have rather had a beating than a lecture. lol!  i would never have had a child if i was not able to provide for him and wasn't smart enough to understand that school was extremely important.  he is in college now so that should say something.  so before you start talking about Bush's plan, which does need improvement, you need to start cleaning house with the parents first.  that is where the trouble starts.

McCain is not President Bush and does what he feels is necessary.  he has gone against Bush on the issue of the surge and other issues.  so i really think that line is old with demcrats and out of touch.  We can all find things we don't like in McCain's record because he has a long one unlike someone we know named Obama.  So attack him for whatever you like.  i would rather put my faith in someone who understands that you create jobs by letting companies compete globally.  cutting corporate taxes is the only way to do that.  Look at my GM example.  they are laying off about 3,000 employees with two announcements w/in two days.  would it be a good idea to raise their taxes now?  ha!  i don't think so unless  you want them to layoff more people.  in addition, you don't raise capital gains taxes so that people who are investing will get less/no return on their money when we need the investments to build up our economy.  Obama is smart because everytime you play the stick it to the rich scheme, it will win over dumb people.  you can talk about funding for schools all you want and it will be a mute point if jobs are continued to be lost because of Obama's plan and people can't pay taxes into the government.  therefore, less will be given to the schools.  i hope the school administrators can tighten their budgets more or ask parents to make up the difference because that will be what happens.

more than 100% was referring to Obama's tax plan:  95% of american get a tax cut + 40% who don't pay taxes (he forgot to mention.  wonder why?) + 5% that will have their taxes raised.  so it is Obama's math not mine unfortunately for all of us if he is president.  see he just yesterday started saying 95% of working people but didn't mention the people who didn't work will receive a check.  how nice of him!  expansion of the welfare system is great to some folks i guess!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbbcVNOMqSk

this is the type of activity  the McCain/Palin ticket is not speaking out against.

Titus.  everyone is responsible for taxes - saying otherwise is stupid.  If you don't have a valid premise for your argument, then you invalidate your entire argument.  Why don't you try again.

unfortunately, everyone does not pay taxes, and i have a right to say what i want just as you do! 

you are correct that everyone is responsible for taxes but everyone does not pay them.  when people receive a check from the government for the amount of taxes (excluding SS) they paid in, that means they don't pay taxes.  they have not made enough according to the government to contribute.  people who are on welfare or who don't work don't pay taxes.  i'm not talking about the city, state, etc.  so before you call someone stupid, i think you need to think again.  Obama wants to give people who don't pay taxes a check in the mail (welfare).  If you have listened to all of the news sites including CNN, MSNBC, you would have heard experts in the economy backing this up and saying that this will increase in welfare systm dramatically and they are extremely worried about it.  in addition, the top 5% of population already pay the majority of taxes anyway.  most of them are our employers.  poor people do not hire people.

Harrysmom said,

"everyone is responsible for taxes - saying otherwise is stupid."

Now there is an informed voter!  From a teacher no less.  Not surprising maybe at all.

OMG!


out.

yes, can you believe that!  i detect a problem here!  i don't claim to be a genius but.........................

#85/86, I believe you are correct. Obama's plan is not just a reduction in taxes or a tax credit. A person/couple/family can have a taxable income of $0 after taking all their deductions, thus, while they pay FICA/medicare on their wages, they would have a $0 federal income tax liability. 

Under the Obama plan, they would get a check out of the treasury, even though they paid no income tax into the treasury.

Amber:  i don't bomb anyone.  the nice thing about this country is freedom of speech.  you have the right to say stupid things and i have the right to respond or not.  since i'm a registered voter i can vote for micky mouse if i want to.  so who are the people that have warned us for 50 years.  the information i write is just facts.  if you have a tv and watch the debates or listen to the economists, you will find that to be true.  adult debates are good for all of us to learn including me.   too bad you are not able to handle people who stick to facts and not spin.

Thanks Ameriken.  this will lead to an increase welfare program with larger government spending and larger government.  that is just what we don't need.  i don't understand why anyone would not see this and not be mad about it.  Did you see McCain's face in the last debate when Obama was responding to his remark about fining small businesses if they didn't provide employees healthcare benefits?   In the previous debates Obama had never denied that there would not be a fine even when given the chance.  This last debate he flatly denied that he would charge them anything.  his plan calls for fining small businesses if they don' participate in providing healthcare for their employees and McCain's mouth dropped open.  oh well, vote for Obama and you'll vote for a disaster is all i have to say.

Amber...

Hate to break up your little American hate fest there, but the terrorists who hijacked and flew those planes into those big buildings killing all those people got us in this war. Protecting american citizens and innocent people all over the world from others who wish to do the same doesn't make us bad, just makes us responsible. We didn't start it, but we will finish it. And you would do well to be a little more respectful of those who have given all they had to give to protect you and yours.

ok. again, i don't bomb.  i haven't spoken about abortion.  as for environmental issues, if we don't have jobs and taxes are not paid, money will not be available to fund anything.  so you are saying democrats did not vote for the war--i.e., Hillary?  Debt is big and democrats had a lot to do with it.  suv's are only owned by republicans, right?  Republicans don't care what religion these radicals are.  oh republicans are so evil but democrats have their nice Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reed and Barney Frank.  by the way have you been reading my blogs about the economy and how it fits.  ask any economist you want to about how job creation happens and what capital investment does for our country and you'll find that Obama's plan will not work.  if we cut our spending, which McCain will do, and wrangle in new spending, which McCain will do, there will be more money to pay down the deficit.  what is your real beef?  Obama is the one who doesn't care about $17B+ and wants to double the foreign aid.  In case you haven't figured it out, he is a democrat and on your side.  not my fault either.  Listen to his whole comment and you'll see he blows it off.  So true republicans don't believe in the mess that is going on in Washington today.  There are crooks in every party.  I will give you an example of someone i don't like on the republican side--Senator Dole.  I don't think she has done anything since she took office.  Of course, Reed, Pelosi and Frank are absolutely disgusting due to their huge part in the economic debacle.  Bush has done some things i don't like either but i can say he has kept us safe from another attack.  before you shoot daggers, look at your own party.  i have blogged about my party and talked about their inadequacies and you should do the same to have a fair view.  I blame both parties a lot.  i think you are really joking about everything and trying to cause trouble but it "ain't workin."

Since Amber doesn't respect those who protect our country, french fries should be the place for that person to live.  The heroes (our men and women that risk their lives to protect our freedoms) are people who believe in our country and want to fight to protect our rights as citizens and to protect our children and their children.

Freddie Mac Paid GOP Consulting Firm $2M To Kill Legislation
 
WASHINGTON — Freddie Mac secretly paid a Republican consulting firm $2 million to kill legislation that would have regulated and trimmed the mortgage finance giant and its sister company, Fannie Mae, three years before the government took control to prevent their collapse.
In the cross hairs of the campaign carried out by DCI of Washington were Republican senators and a regulatory overhaul bill sponsored by Sen. Chuck Hagel, R-Neb. DCI's chief executive is Doug Goodyear, whom John McCain's campaign later hired to manage the GOP convention in September.
Freddie Mac's payments to DCI began shortly after the Senate Banking, Housing and Urban Affairs Committee sent Hagel's bill to the then GOP-run Senate on July 28, 2005. All GOP members of the committee supported it; all Democrats opposed it.
In the midst of DCI's yearlong effort, Hagel and 25 other Republican senators pleaded unsuccessfully with Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, R-Tenn., to allow a vote.
"If effective regulatory reform legislation ... is not enacted this year, American taxpayers will continue to be exposed to the enormous risk that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac pose to the housing market, the overall financial system and the economy as a whole," the senators wrote in a letter that proved prescient.
Unknown to the senators, DCI was undermining support for the bill in a campaign targeting 17 Republican senators in 13 states, according to documents obtained by The Associated Press. The states and the senators targeted changed over time, but always stayed on the Republican side.
 
read entire story: here

Jim J- hate to break up your ignoramafest but you just conflated 9-11 and Iraq.  Are you retarded?  Even Bush and Cheny have given that line of bull up.

Jim J-- i don't think you mentioned Iraq or am i missing something?  we are also fighting in Afganistan too and have recently been seeing results on the Pakistani border?

ATTENTION ALL MCCAINIACS:
I came to this site to see if I could try to comprehend why anyone would support a Republican ticket after the sheer and utter s*it-show of the past 8 years.  Although I'm registered as a Democrat, I have voted for Republicans through the years - in fact my first vote ever was cast for Ronald Reagan.  


I have, therefore, always had Republicans that I admired.  Until this election, McCain was one of them.  Colin Powell, however, has always been my favorite.  Had he run, I would have voted for him.  


In light of Powell's endorsement of Obama and clear admonishment of McCain, I think it's now clear that those who continue to support McCain simply have IQ's under 100 or are not good people  worth engaging with.  Either of those or you are just insane.


Someone said it before on this board:  the ultimate form of insanity is when you continue to do the same thing over and over even if it is harmful to yourself, those you love, and others..... so those of you who continue to support a Republican ticket must be insane!  


Have a nice election people. 
out.

Harrysmom has the reasoning powering of a Gerbil. Nuff said there, pretty evident. ============================================ Folks, you must remember a few things when you go to the voting booth.

This is not the time to elect the most liberal senator in congress (who never saw a tax he didn't like) to take control of the till. He doesn't have an economic bone in his body, the poor dear.

Govt. revenue does NOT increase under high taxation. What DOES happen is that folks like me move their assets overseas, and protect what we have worked so hard for over the years. Some may call that unpatriotic, but it's just plain old economic survival and human nature. Money knows no nationality, nor boundaries. Obamas onerous tax schemes will make the very monies he seeks flow OUT of the country. Another certainty is that Obama's taxation principles will NOT attract foreign investment either.

Voting for Obama will increase the amount of people who currently do NOT pay taxes from the current 30% (a ridiculous amount) to 44% (a staggering amount).

I consider these people to be economic SLAVES. These slaves will have to be cared for in every way. This is not free, nothing is.

Voting for Obama will more than likely give the Democrats control of every facet of Govt. Hell hath no fury like a one party Govt!!

There will be no energy exploration for the sake of National security or to break the grip of Iran and Russia on international politics (both countries have a fondness for using energy as blackmail).

There will be no victory in Iraq and our precious soldiers will have died in vain. Terrorism will grow. A weakness will be sensed and rightfully so. The Bush tax cuts will be gone and Obama is going to pile on if he wins. Taxes are going up, up, up, and GDP will be going down,down,down. Not good. ================================================ Am I happy that I had to set up a program to move my assets? NO! It's a pain in the ass, and has disrupted my short term plans of building another house here in the States. I won't give any more details other than to say it's worth doing (asset relocation), if done correctly. Here's the kicker. If everything goes badly and Obama gets elected, in about 2 years, I will be set up to be one of the people who will get TAX CREDITS!!!! LOL, but it's not really. It's just a vision of the future multiplied by many many others who are doing the exact same thing right now.

Capitalism matches up perfectly with the human nature and psyche. The farther away you get from it, as in Socialism, Communism, the worse the results are for the masses.

Take away the capitalist economic dynamo of the United States and follow the less efficient ways of socialism, and watch the suffering increase globally.

So I'm biting the bullet and voting for McCain. So I won't have to make that phone call.

Either way I am staying put. My assets however, are a different matter.


out.

after a weekend of hate-calls received here - there is not a doubt in my mind, nor in the minds of my neighbors here in Colorado that McCain's last ditch effort spews nothing but hate and divisiveness.  
Gen. Powell's words yesterday spoke to the "narrowness" that has become the Republican party.  
anyone making endorsement of the McCain/Palin ticket, any comment made by any person stating a planned vote for these two reflect your approval for this hate and the GOP's efforts to promote these violent, acid-filled calls.
hoboblah, you appear as  a complete representation of this.  go ahead and run from your responsibilities as an American-  those of us who actually believe in America  will do the responsible thing: to invest in our future and to work to better this country. 
Obama, along with  the vast majority of this country will help to  "turn the page" on your tiny, selfish thinking, hoboblah.

hobo hoe, that's Dr. Harrysmom to you thankyouverymuch.


If I have the reasoning power of a gerbil, then you have the reasoning power of an ameba.   


Capitalism is not human nature.  It is the basic instinct of the patriarchal male nature.  Your assertion signifies that you have yet to get laid, or do so very rarely.  Your logic is flawed and your selfish, hateful perspective of the world makes it clear that you desperately need to get some.


peace hobo hoe.  I actually pity you.

Harrysmom


Jim J- hate to break up your ignoramafest but you just conflated 9-11 and Iraq.  Are you retarded?  Even Bush and Cheny have given that line of bull up.  


I didn't mention Iraq in my earlier post. The fact is, no matter what your liberal smear sites tell you, we are in a global war on terror. That war is multi-faceted and on many different fronts, Iraq only being one of them. It is, however, as the commanders on the ground put it, the central front. You can agree or disagree and spew your liberal "we shouldn't be there" stuff all you want, it doesn't change the fact. As far as Iraq is concerned, we are there and we are winning, like it or not. What we cannot afford, is Barack Obama coming to power and pulling us out of the main front. This will not make us any safer, in fact will take us the opposite direction.

I also read your love fest with Colin Powell in the above post and find that humorous. How do you rectify the fact that he is the one who gave the riveting and passionate argument in front of the UN that sold the war in the first place with your anti war stance??? How is he the 9th wonder and Bush is the one destroying this country??

Harrysmom said,

"Capitalism is not human nature.  It is the basic instinct of the patriarchal male nature.  Your assertion signifies that you have yet to get laid, or do so very rarely.  Your logic is flawed and your selfish, hateful perspective of the world makes it clear that you desperately need to get some."
===========================================

Therein lies one of your problems, besides the personal insults and sweeping assumptions based upon evidence not introduced (like my sex life).

One of the main tenants of human psychology is that a human being will work and protect the SELF first and then spread outwards. 
This is not good nor evil, it just is what it is.   Some can deal with it (me).  Some cannot (harrysmom).

Capitalism rewards the self first.  Socialism does not.  Capitalism will always outperform Socialism, always.  Communism and Dictatorship is another drop downwards beyond the inefficiency of Socialism. 

It's HUMAN nature.  This is one of the reasons why ALL Govt.'s on some scale become corrupt.  The difference is in a capitalist democracy, u have avenues to redress the problems, less so with Socialism, practically none at all with Communism.

You "may" have a doctorate (if so good for you), but that doesn't mean you are applying correct logic when it comes to economic or political theory.  This much is already evident.


Take away the capitalist engine and watch the free fall begin.


out.

I have heard liberals over the years attack Colin Powell and try to convince me that he is 'not credible' because of his pitch (along with many other republicans and democrats) to lead us into war in Iraq. Despite that, I have always had a high regard for him and would vote for him for Prez if he ran.

He was attacked from within the democratic party with racist comments such as 'house n----r', 'uncle tom', etc. Harry Belafonte in 2002... "There were those slaves who lived on the plantation, and there were those slaves that lived in the house. You got the privilege of living in the house if you served the master exactly the way the master intended to have you serve him. Colin Powell's committed to come into the house of the master."
 
"This was not a personal attack on Colin Powell; however, speaking on behalf of so many African-American citizens, I have found Colin Powell to be a tragic failure."

Now, I find it laughable how democrats suddenly find Powell to be so credible because he has endorsed Obama.

Powell made an impassioned speech regarding our invasion of Afghanistan, and rightly so.  He resigned when he recognized that Cheny et al were not going to hear him regarding their disastrous execution of the rest.  You all must agree with that now.  Your own candidate is running from George Bush so fast he is about to have a heart attack!


And yes, there were some that were incredulous that he would support such a conservative administration to begin with- but why are you lumping me with them?  I told you that I have gone both ways in the voting booth.  I have always respected Powell.


You, Ameriken, have shown evidence of some level of independence- were you just blowing smoke?  Both of the current candidates are going to do the same, or similar thing, in office.  They will both have the same issues to deal with and there would be very little discernible difference.  


That said, the leadership factor that Powell spoke of is key.  You all seem to miss out on the basic dynamic of a great leader.  It's beyond me.


Hobo hoe, I suggest that you read the classic Davis-Moore vs. Tumin debate.  Seriously.  You will be able to see how and why you and I differ.  google it.

Powell's endorsement was as much as a condemnation of McCain's lack of judgment and the "win at all costs" campaign that McCain has allowed his people to direct as it was an endorsement for the temperament, inclusive, and balanced leadership as demonstrated by Obama. 
 Anyone who has actually paid attention could see the clear path of destruction that McCain has created for his own self.  His approval to send hate calls throughout the country in addition to the violent reactions and activities by rabid supporters has sent at least a dozen people that I know who were "fence-sitting"  to vote early and positively FOR Obama.

Blowback is underway.

@ harrysmom #104,

As for 'lumping you in', I'm not sure where that came from as I simply made a general statement based on past and current experience. If I have something to say to you personally, I will mention you by name, however I promise to avoid making personal judgments (such as 'blowing smoke'), name calling, and character attacks that seems to be a common occurance here and on many other blogs.

General Powell's endorsement is icing on the cake at this point.  I actually predicted it way back when (along with Jenna Bush).  I was surprised to learn that John McCain's daughter voted for Kerry in 2004 (because of W's smears of her family in 2000).  Funny that her father seems to be over that little dust up back in the day in SC.  It is great validation of Barack.  It is a great repudiation of McCain.  If they want to go after Powell, they do so at great political risk to themselves.  That hasn't stopped them before though.  I'm seeing stories of poor cooperation with the party in key states for McCain.  I see McCain trying to protect red states and quietly pulling out of others.  His surrogates are all over the place.  Palin, at this point, is, well...fill in the blank for yourself.  Do I even bother to describe how exquisitely organized and financed and on message Barrack's team is.  Just taking a step back, what if this was a McCain administration?  If he can't run a campaign, than he can't run a country.  It's that simple.  The race will tighten because that's what races do.  Barack has no scheduled appearances in blue states between now and election day.  Barack has 3 times as much money to work with.

More so than McCain himself, I will be thrilled to watch Palin banished back to the Artic by the majority of the American people.  Then she will begin bashing McCain shortly afterwards.  That bashing will only be trumped by the next crop of republican contenders bashing her after having to defend her indefensible selection for VP.

103
Ameriken.....
Gen. Powell redeemed himself yesterday.  I was wondering how he was going to shaft the party that used him so shamlessly 5 yrs ago.
His timing was perfect, don't you think?

test

among other reasons Powell got screwed by the Bush admin., i am sure there is a degree of payback in this endorsement

Simonsdad, I see it now........Palin will lose her bid for reelection to the Governor's seat in "Alayskah" in 2010, which will be a good thing because then she can spend time preparing for her presidential run in 2012.  She will show up in New Hampshire in 2011, and come in dead last.  An HBO movie will be made.  She will write a book (with a ghost writer, of course).    She will retreat to the arctic with her view of Russia and her 25 grandchildren.  Curtain closed.


Ameriken, I didn't say you lumped me- I just thought that your discussion of Powell sounded very partisan, which surprised me.  I know you don't, like Rush, attribute his endorsement to race- do you?  No.  I didn't think so.

Harrysmom:

i  have read all of your unbelievable comments on this blog.  First you attacked me saying everyone is responsible for paying taxes and started with the personal insults.  obviously you were wrong on the tax issue.  you may be a teacher/professor but you are not of authority here.  this is an area i'm well versed in and work in everyday.  i'm not going to judge, but it doesn't sound like you have the corporate experience and are going on what you have learned.  Your comments about "learn it"  should be towards yourself because it is obvious you are not versed in simple tax law.  i'm not an expert in this area but this is elementary stuff.  You said you came to this blog to find out why people would vote for McCain.  Instead of asking questions, you are condescending, and it is obvious you don't understand most of what you are saying.  Learning requires listening and asking questions.  you are not the teacher here.  You are quick to throw punches at folks and then say they we spread hatred.  WHAT?  that is the pot calling the kettle black.  we can debate and discuss and it may passionate but we as adults can act like adults. 
McCain will not keep teachers from teaching!  he just wants to do a Pay for Performance System and get rid of the teachers who are not performing.  There are a lot of companies that have this type of plan including mine.  This will only improve any system.  So you are definitely distorting the truth. 

HOBOBOH has been right on every post i've read and is very informed.  However, you continue to throw personal out of line insults.

Your comments:
Capitalism is not human nature.  It is the basic instinct of the patriarchal male nature.  Your assertion signifies that you have yet to get laid, or do so very rarely.  Your logic is flawed and your selfish, hateful perspective of the world makes it clear that you desperately need to get some.
peace hobo hoe.  I actually pity you.
What kind of childish comment was this?  i really hope you don't spread your hate and out-of-line comments to the classroom and hope you don't teach at the college my son attends because this is a disgraceful way to talk to anyone especially when you are acting as if you know it all and it is obvious you don't.  You need to listen to folks who are actually out there in the corp world and understand what is happening and not just your colleagues.  i've had wonderful teachers thoughout my life, which included professors with business experience (the best) and ones that were career teachers (not as good).  most people in my classes had the same thoughts. 

My father always said that you can't talk to some people and explain common sense.  i truly hope this is not you because i'm willing to discuss and debate any subject but won't reduce my self to talking about anyone's sex life.  that is disgusting.

Here are my comments on the economy:

i understand you are passionate about your beliefs as i am.  i am really afraid for this country.  i'm am afraid because the economy is the most important issue here.  without a strong economy, the government has no money for the military, education, social security, medicare, disability, or anything else.  the only way these programs are funded is through taxpayer dollars.  as you know everyone does not pay taxes.  therefore, the working folks (including me) have to be able to find jobs.  at this point job creation is the most important factor.  without that the whole country will be in a depression.  companies cannot survive in this economy with higher taxes.  look at GM.  they are laying off over 3,000 employees and it may not stop there.  Obama will raise their taxes.  Regardless of what we as normal folks think, the company will not only layoff the 3,000, they will layoff in massive numbers.  that will happen all over this country.  every city will be devastated.  small and large businesses will layoff, close and/or move their businesses overseas.  the backbone of our economy is our strong businesses.  if people do not invest in them, jobs will not be created and we are screwed as a nation.  Under Obama's plan capital gains taxes will be raised.  if potential investors cannot earn any money off their investments, they will not invest.  with the depressed markets, we need investors.  if present investors are not earning any money, they will eventually pull out.  this especially applies to institutional investors responsible for the big 401k plans.  they don't want to hear complaints from their customers and are very nervous right now anyway.  the institutional customers account for a tremendous amount of trading volume and if they get nervous, it will be devastating for our economy.  we saw this some last week with the big swings.  a big portion of the big swings can be contributed to these institutions.  in addition these big customers as well as smaller ones will look for bargains overseas and take their money out of this country.  can you imagine of investment is not encouraged and more taxes are applied?  this is why i'm extremely worried about Obama getting into office.  it has nothing to do with whose party he represents. 

Obama has already proven that he does not care about our money by his comments about the pork barrell spending (he blew off the comment by saying it was not much money.  i heard him say it in the debate) and by doubling the foreign aid (Biden in his debate).  McCain has never proposed any pork barrell spending (i looked it up and it is true) and has saved the taxpayers millions of dollars in a military project that he thought was a waste.  He has too much to lose to keep us longer in Iraq--his sons are there!  He will always be thinking of them and his experience during war.  He has a mission to help vets in anyway possible and with his service, i know he will.  that is why i trust him in that respect.  we have to be careful in the middleast.  they don't care about words.  their culture is "show me" and "you leave, you lost."  those people spread hatred propaganda and will come for us here.  i'm not just talking about Iraq, it is all over the world.  we have to demand their respect or we are history.  Obama has no record and we can't count on just what he says because we have too much to lose.  The news today is the leaders around the world think obama is weak.  well that is bad news for us!   

As you can probably tell i work in the financial world but won't go further than that.  Obama's economic plan will not work. it is not a matter of my opinion, it is a matter of the way our economy works.  if i thought his plan had a chance, i would be able to sleep at night.  i'm literally stressed out over this and wish everyone would quit ignoring my blogs about economics.  All of my economics points can be verified by millions of sources.

The GOP presidential nominee regularly castigates colleagues when they insert language in spending bills forcing taxpayers everywhere to pay for projects only of interest to a select few.
McCain likes to say that he has never requested pork spending. By most senators’ standards, McCain’s pork barrel requests are miniscule, but they do exist... and given the absolutism in McCain’s claim, with proof otherwise it seems that McCain's claim would not be correct.
 
McCain in 2006 co-sponsored legislation that asked for $10-million for an academic center at the University of Arizona to honor the late Supreme Court chief justice William Rehnquist. In 2003, Frank noted, McCain won authorization to buy property to create a buffer zone around Luke Air Force Base in Arizona, and in 1992, McCain asked the Environmental Protection Agency to provide $5-million toward a wastewater project in Nogales, Ariz.
 
Just as there is a difference between voter registration fraud and voter fraud-  there is also a difference between "earmarks" and "pork" spending.
Earmarks are inserted into a bill that will likely pass, sometimes done as a trade-off with another legislator, among other reasons.
Pork is spending requested by a particular legislator, generally for "pet" projects only of interest to a select few. Pork is generally done as a "stand alone".
McCain lumps the two when beating his chest while on the stump- but when confronted with the facts, he then claims his pork didn't count, since they were "stand alone" spending requests.
Sorry honey, that's called pork... so named to show constituents that they can "bring home the bacon."

as far as the proposed tax plans for both candidates, here is a contrast between the two and where you would be under each:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2008/06/09/ST2008060900950.html
the theory of "trickle down" (that "socialist" idea of "spreading the wealth" )- in this particular case- the wealth was re-distributed up- from the middle class to the top 1% of the countries wealthiest businesses in the form of tax cuts... the premise here was that with this additional revenue in their hands,  instead of paying it out via taxes- these upper crust businesses would use this to create new jobs, maintain the market cash flow, etc...etc.)  what happened?
money was pocketed, CEO's had huge take-homes, jobs were outsourced, businesses set about for nearly 30 years, reducing their long-term and full time employees, replacing them with younger, often less qualified individuals on a less than full-time schedule thereby no longer offerings healthcare and other benefits.  At the same time,  their company lobbyists went to work in Washington to make certain minimum wage increases were not addressed, and the middle class lost all the way around.

raise interest rates,  keep wages low,  people forced to live on credit if they can qualify -yet unable to pay down credit beyond the minimum payment  or they  live paycheck to paycheck knowing that any calamity will force them into bankruptcy.  bankruptcy now made even more difficult as lobby efforts put forth by credit card companies left them sitting in the catbird seat and the individual has no place to turn.
transactions for goods and services are drastically reduced as lower and middle income must make choices: food or the electric bill. 
these are the working poor- and then conservatives scream and holler that 40%  don't even pay taxes-  don't you people even wonder about this?  don't you wonder how this can happen in "the richest country in the world?".
think about it.

instead of another stimulus package (which had zero effect), perhaps they should consider placing this money towards infrastructure and create -
create jobs, fix what needs fixing,  and get cash flowing in the private sector.

yes, i have thought about it and know that if there is competition with companies to get the best help, and you have the skills the companies want, they will be willing to pay for it.   everyone is responsible for continuing to develop skills that are in demand.  As a result they have choice who they can work for.  everyone around me is versitile in their jobs skills and continues to gain skills.  we all have choices to make about our lives.  after working for pennies at more than full time jobs and sometimes two jobs as a single divorced mom, i realized my son deserved more and I needed to set a example for him.  we lived on very modest means and barely had enough to survive.  i didn't blame anyone but myself.  i knew i had to send my son to college and felt like a failure as a parent.  i found a way to go to college (no help) and took the opportunity.  i worked full time and went to school full time.  even though i didn't sleep but about 2 hours a night sometimes, i was so excited to be able to realize my dream.  i now have my graduate degree.  i endured so much more than what i will share but i made it!  that is a CHOICE i made and i don't have sympathy for folks who do less!  i'm of average intelligence and don't have anything more special than someone else.  if i can do it without a support system (even family support) so can others.  the government was not responsible for my decisions and i didn't expect them to pay for my apt, insurance, car, daycare, school, etc.  that was my responsibility. 
i choose how many children i have, the car i drive and the life i lead. Through all of the hard times ($25/wk for groceries not so long ago), i never carried more than $300 on my credit card.  stupid me didn't even have healthcare coverage at one point for about a year; however, my son had it, but that was my choice.  There are exceptions but most people can do the same but they choose not to.  i only have sympathy for the children they choose to have and choose not to take care of.  People also have choices in where they work and if they work for themselves.  If someone is struggling and can't figure it out, there are so many programs that are available now that were not there before.  there is help everywhere.  it just takes the will and effort.

"This is probably because this site has been infiltrated by Dailykos weirdos and the Obama Geek Squad (Rapid Response team)."
-I wonder where i fit in?

Titus....what a great Biography, and i do mean that.....
An American success story. 
"If someone is struggling and can't figure it out, there are so many programs that are available now that were not there before."
-It was a whole lot easier to find money to attend college back in the 70's........
" i only have sympathy for the children they choose to have and choose not to take care of."
If we would only help these single moms with day care and subsidies to assist them make a better life (Socialism?).....
Yes, you seem to be a cut above the norm, and you should be commended.  But not every one is that strong.....and it IS the children that suffer.
What i wonder is this:
When economic times are good, we can't tax the wealthy & corporations that can afford it, ....it will ruin the economy.
When an economic crisis occurs we can't tax the wealthy & corporations because they will shut down the jobs.  Wow!  That smacks of extortion.
I wonder.....is this mind set really patriotic?

Titus,

I am glad that you had the strength, information, and ability to go out and make your life better- both for your son and yourself. I congratulate you.  I have a sister that has a similar story.
Unfortunately, not all people fit in your particular circumstances.  What you have done with your life is exactly the purpose of "community organizers" that some here enjoy putting down.  I encourage you to not allow yourself the mindset exemplified in this forum: ("I did it myself and you should be able to do it too!") 
Try to understand that not all people are as fortunate as you are.

Titus Hunt: wow.  You spent an awful lot of time and energy in telling me about myself.  It's a blog for pete's sake.  it's anonymous.  if I want to poke fun at someone's sex life, it's NOT PERSONAL.  jeez.  


say what you want about me, but I'm comfortable with my knowledge base.  and my teaching and students are fine thanks.  if I do teach your son, he's probably the one I just gave an F on a paper to (JUST KIDDING- COOL YOUR JETS!!!)


I'm not going to spend the next 30 minutes responding to your big business love fest- I dont' have the time...but it's clear that your ideology differs from mine to the extreme.  I believe government has a responsibility to care for all people: and it seems you believe government has a responsibility to care for business and all the people can care for themselves.  I think it's cold hearted, but then I'm a tree hugging hippie Christian socialist so what do I know?  Oh, and I am your fellow American and my opinion counts too.  FYI

Where do you fit in Dave?   Why you are one of the misinformed my boy.  Be proud.

U said: -It was a whole lot easier to find money to attend college back in the 70's........    This is blatantly false.  Next!  More people are going to college than ever before, with loans.  Of course you probably figure the Govt. should send every one to college as a right.  It's okay to admit it to me.  It would fall in line with your other theorems.  Like the Govt. should make sure every one owns a home ..  oops that one has already been tried.  We just paid out 700 Billion to correct that theorem.  More money to follow unfortunately.  Stay tuned....
===========================================
Dave, you think only in terms of business in how much tax can be applied to them.  This is a pattern you need to break. 

U said - When economic times are good, we can't tax the wealthy & corporations that can afford it, ....it will ruin the economy.
When an economic crisis occurs we can't tax the wealthy & corporations because they will shut down the jobs.  Wow!  That smacks of extortion.
I wonder.....is this mind set really patriotic?

First a few corrections... 

A corporate tax is not paid by the Corporation Dave.  The tax money is merely funneled through that particular Company.  The money is derived from the customers that the company serves.  That means You and I Dave.  You and I.  Not the Corp. Dave.  You and I.  This is one of the most favorite ploys politicians on both sides of the aisle like to engage in.  It makes it "SEEM" like they are not taxing "Joe Public", but they are.  It's a political winner, but a loser for who Dave?  C'mon say it with me Dave.  You and I.  Good boy.  Okay next.
If you learn one thing today it should be that.  Corporate tax is a citizen tax!!  We citizens end up paying the Corporate tax, not the Corporation.  They merely pass it on down the line.

So one may say to that, why can't we just funnel way more through the Corps. then?!  Ahh, the ying and yang of life and taxes.  If you pump too much tax on a Corp. you disrupt their ability to reinvest in the country and their own infrastructure.  Also prices go up across the board and the citizens end up like Europeans..  poor.  Okay on to the next correction and or illumination (that last bit is up to you.  Many prefer the dark)

==================================
Okay so we have established that corporate taxes and personal taxes are really one in the same.   It's just cloaked politically, not economically.  This is econ 101 by the way.

Numbers don't lie, just politicians. 

A LOW tax rate will give the Govt. about the same amount of revenue to spend as a HIGH rate will.

Low taxes fire up the economic private sector.
High taxes dim the economic private sector.

So, if the Govt. receives about the same amount no matter the tax rates, what can we do?

Why Dave, we should do the right thing and reign in Govt. spending.  Have the Republicans been doing this?  NO!!!!
This is why the conservative base is so pissed off.  And rightly so.

Electing Obama is not the answer however my boy.  Not the answer at all.  This poor guy thinks the Govt. is the way to the future.  He couldn't be more wrong.

I don't blame the guy really.  He is NOOB POLITICIAN without any experience (thats good) in any executive position.  He's never run a business.  He's never had a meaningful job.

The fact that so many Americans have fallen for his economic drivel leads me to conclude our school systems have failed us all.

If only we had more student loans.  I like to end on a joke.  Wait one more ..  taxes are patriotic!!

Cya Dave, hope you get better.


At harrysmom,

I'm not even going to bother responding to your post.  It's too easy.
I'm glad your comfortable with your intellect level.  Most everyone is, right down to the uninformed.


out.

If everyone can afford to attend college without the expense of paying off loans after graduation, they'd be more likely to afford a home and other amenities, huh HoBo?  What is wrong with that(other than it would help out our financial institutions, right)?
"Dave, you think only in terms of business in how much tax can be applied to them......"
As a proud member of the working class who has paid his fair share of taxes and serving to protect the interests of this nation, i see nothing wrong in business paying their fair share of taxes to do business in this country.  It is only fair my friend.....since a business can only serve it's nation by the taxes they pay.
"A LOW tax rate will give the Govt. about the same amount of revenue to spend as a HIGH rate will."
So why is this nation so in debt?  It wasn't earmarks either.....it was that stupid war of "conservative" George Bush that generated the deficit, wasn't it?
So, the average American pays taxes and serves to defend the interests of this nation (which coincide with many business interests).......and business should be left off the hook to pay down this deficit?

http://campaignsilo.firedoglake.com/2008/10/20/...

McCain Supporters in my hometown!  Why do they NOT want me to exercise my right to vote?  Kinda small minded of them.....

Unfortunately, this type of activity has grown in direct proportion to the hate, suggestions, lies,and  divisiveness created by the McCain/Palin ticket.  McCain has had ample opportunities to speak to this directly- to his supporters, to condemn this activity .  He has not.
Instead, McCain has said- on numerous occasions... "well.. the tone of this campaign would have been different if Sen. Obama would have done the town halls as I requested."
 
In essence, this reads like payback - because  Obama had his own campaign strategy set out, and this did not fit into his plans.  McCain, as a child, held his breath until he got his way.  He had tantrums, even to the extent that his parents had to put him in the tub to calm down.  He continues to do this even today- pout, kick, and point fingers at all who would not do his bidding.
What sort of leadership does this display?  Seriously... think about it.
 
The primary reason why Obama has gathered the support he has, whether it be from just regular folks like you and I, or from both Republican leaning and Democratic leaning publications, or from high profile individuals in military and government,  or from leaders and interested citizens in European countries...  they see the distinct differences between Obama and McCain. 
Obama does not just reflect the change we need, he lives the words he speaks.  His reasoned response to critical situations have been seen in every area.
McCain would be the opposite of this. Total opposite.  This is what is hurting him.  Talking heads like to speculate how McCain can turn it around...an interesting exercise, but futile. Why?  Because McCain has sold his soul and given in to nearly everything he previously stood against...all for the sake of getting elected.  No one respects this.  The Palin pick has become as large a liability as a candidate can have- but it's too late.  McCain's judgment has already been displayed for all to notice.  His temperament has been displayed in three debates.  His choice to go 100% negative has taken his "hero" name to participate in gutter politics.  Maverick?  Maybe once-upon-a-time.... not now.

harrysmom ......you said in #111: "Ameriken, I didn't say you lumped me-"

If you didn't say that, then who wrote this in post # 104: "And yes, there were some that were incredulous that he would support such a conservative administration to begin with- but why are you lumping me with them?"

Dave u said: If everyone can afford to attend college without the expense of paying off loans after graduation, they'd be more likely to afford a home and other amenities, huh HoBo? What is wrong with that(other than it would help out our financial institutions, right)? I completely agree as long as they use their own private funds. Have a bake sale and go to College. Great!! Govt. loans not paid back .. not great. There's another word for that. It's called "theft". ======================================================== U said: As a proud member of the working class who has paid his fair share of taxes and serving to protect the interests of this nation, i see nothing wrong in business paying their fair share of taxes to do business in this country. It is only fair my friend.....since a business can only serve it's nation by the taxes they pay.

How do we know you paid your fair share Dave?  If the definition of fair share is always up to debate with folks like obama and you, what does fair mean?  it becomes arbitrary. 

Just like your posts!  Zing!!!

As for the corporate tax comment.  Dave, you are not understanding.  Corporations pass the tax to you Dave.  They pay no taxes at all.  Unless you can fathom this you will continue to be lost in economic malarky mumbo jumbo.  A corporate tax is a tax upon you the citizen.  It's just hidden to fool folks, why folks just like you Dave.  And it works too evidently much to my chagrin. 
Wake up Dave.  Really.

Why are we in debt? Are you serious?  Debt. first of all is not the totality of evil.  It is a useful tool to aquire things like cars, houses, business', etc.

The short answer to why the GOVT. is in debt is simple.  The Govt. spends way more than it takes in.  

Of course your answer seems to be well they should take in more and then everything will be alright.  Oh my sweet dreamer of a boy.....


out.

@harrysmom........
As for your statement "I know you don't, like Rush, attribute his endorsement to race- do you?  No.  I didn't think so" 

Then why bring it up?

So i suppose we should just let business off the hook and pay no taxes (many really don't pay taxes ).....since they would just pass it on.   Just what is businesses responsibility to this country HoBo....Nothing?

Hobo, i understand how taxes are passed on in the cost of everything, yet competition will give me an opportunity to choose how much i am willing to pay for a particular item or service..... you still seem to be be of the opinion that the tax rate should be zero for businesses and corporations, .....so who exactly should be footing the bill for government services?  Don't these companies depend upon the infrastructure of the states and federal government to conduct commerce?  So only wage earners should pay taxes?  Or can we just borrow to pay for these items?  Something about your argument just doesn't add up!

David # 123 said: "McCain Supporters in my hometown!  Why do they NOT want me to exercise my right to vote?  Kinda small minded of them....."

Agree David. Some don't want people to exercise their right to support their candidate. They steal McCain signs for a free pizza. Kinda small minded of them......" www. myfoxdetroit.com/myfox/pages/News/Detail?contentId=7687558&version=1&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=VSTY&pageId=3.11.1

Stealing a sign outta my yard is juvenile....i've lost one Obama sign.  I found an appropriate McCain/Palin sign on highway right-of-way(not some one's front yard either)......and hand-painted an Obama logo on it!  It is clearly an old McCain sign and who ever took my sign knows well i'll do it again, so the leave my hand painted sign alone.
But what these "True Americans" did along Russell St. in downtown Fayettteville is intimidation......something i find very UN-AMERICAN!

according to Pat Buchanan, Rush Limbaugh, and George F. Will, Powells endorsement for Obama was all racial. 

hmmm... how then do they explain away this???  :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NttDOQcO2bM

@ David, I find both acts to be unAmerican.

Ameriken....stealing signs is just juvenile, it is to be expected from someone immature.    Intimidation is un-American, something an adult should not be involved in....ever!

http://americanelephant.com/blog/300-retired-generals-and-admirals-endorse-john-mccain-for-president/
300 Retired Generals and Admirals Endorse John McCain for President

David said "Intimidation is un-American, something an adult should not be involved in....ever!"

So, David, since intimidation as an un-American trait is something you seem so passionate and concerned about, why not also post some of the intimidation tactics used by liberals against conservatives that equally bothers you?

Ameriken......there may be incidents of liberal intimidation.....
It seems to be a big part of the conservative game plan.  Maybe i'm wrong.....who knows.   It just seems to me the liberal game plan involves reaching people on a different level.  There were no calls for "kill him" at the rally last Sunday in Fayetteville,
-yet Palin seems to want vigilante justice for hecklers at the Elon N.C. rally last Thursday..... -Elon police removed one protestor from the rally Thursday. Palin remarked that “Maybe he needs to stay and learn a little bit.”   of course it could have 2 meanings......
http://www.dailytarheel.com/news/state_national....

David...As for slashing tires or stealing signs, both should be prosecuted. 

But 'some incidents of liberal intimidation'?

And you posted a video of people protesting. You posted a video of people protesting. Now protesting is unamerican? Or is free speech unamerican? Oh, I know, it's unamerican when conservatives do it, but is patriotic when liberals protest and heckle conservatives, right?

And liberals want to reach people on a different level? Like this? Is this the progressive level of the 21st century that we should all strive for? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQalRPQ8stI
Or what about Obama's different level..... 'bitter people clinging to their guns and religion'. Or 'they're going to make you afraid' or 'he looks different'. Or is that part of the Obama 'game plan'? How about the Obama game plan to smear the Clintons? And Bill's 'fairytale' remark was racist? That's not intimidating? How about those who heckled Michelle Malkin in Denver?

Obama says Michelle is off limits, but the NY Times for smearing Cindy McCain is ok? Is that part of 'a different level' ?

Or the "Palin is a 'c--t' " t-shirts?

Or General 'Betrayus'?

Is that the 'different level' you refer to? Is that 'american'?

I should go read some of the comments on the Daily Kos to see the non-intimidating and patriotic posts that are on a 'different level' about wishing Tony Snow's death, or about Sarah Palins kids, etc.

Yep. That's the different level of liberals?

Guess what David. It is people and politics and the garbage exists on both sides. Get over it.

Protesting?  Why would anyone want to "protest" someone voting?  I can see the point of protesting......but why would you NOT want fellow citizens to vote? 
So, when certain elements in politics "de-Americanize" segments of the voting population, it leads to acts of covert violence that is meant to intimidate voters.....like in the "good old days" before civil rights, huh?

I'll repeat: "Guess what David. It is people and politics and the garbage exists on both sides".

The only one 'de-americanizing' anything is you by repeating your use of the term 'unamerican' toward conservatives. I find that to be intimidating.

The de-Americanization is the basic tool in the republican party tool kit.
I guess you can say it ain't so and pretend that is in fact true..........
But it ain't.
By referring to  Obama and his supporters as un-American, McCain and Palin are responsible for fostering a dark, violent side that is seeping out.
This is what i see in these protesters and the slashed tires they left....

Ameriken,Hobo and Titus,
I will admit that some liberals have gone too far if you will admit some conservatives have too. The problem is lately that it seems McCain's surrogates are trying to insure everyone goes too far. For 8 years, anyone who was not a "bushy" was told we were un-American, unpatriotic, unchristian, just "un", so maybe you can forgive us for being a little sensitive. I have watched this blog with interest and the sniping going back and forth is nothing more than a microcosm of what's happening all over the country. God help us if we can't get over these petty differences and come together or the entire nation is going to hell in a hand basket.  I have a question for you three and honestly want an answer. I work in healthcare and have people, 100's of people, without insurance. Jobs, but no insurance. When they finally come to me ill, I have to shop around to find somewhere they can get meds cheap enought to pay out of pocket.  I don't order tests they need because they ask me not to because they can't afford it. I am a 45 yr old breast cancer survivor and if I did not have insurance that has no pre-existing condition clause there is no way I could afford my therapy. My husband's grandmother has $30 to last  the month after she pays for her meds and that is with Medicare part D. I have patients who pull their own teeth because they have no dental insurance or the money to pay in cash. My father grew up poor and got his first job at 10, he worked everyday of his life until age 60 when he retired from a Fortune 500 company. He lost most of his retirement after the stock market fell after 9/11 and had to go back to work at age 70. This is a man who worked 3 jobs and went to school full-time to make a better life for our family and this is his reward. I have another patient who is 81 and still lays brick because his company offered no retirement and Social Security is not cutting it. My son is $100,000 in debt from an undergraduate education and may not be able to get a good enough job in this "soft" economy to be able to pay it back.  Thanks to No Child Left Behind, my children are more worried about passing tests that about learning and expanding their minds. My son's music class last year consisted of sitting in front of a computer reading about music.  I am one person among millions but I think my life is fairly representative of what many are going through. Please tell me how the conservative agenda and priorities as well as John McCain's plans are going to help me and my family.

@ David #140

David.....I totally agree with you regarding the 'unamerican' and 'unpatriotic' statements conservatives have made. However, if you are offended by the 'unamerican' references, then why do you make them? 

And you may be right about the 'republican party toolkit' as you say, I'm sure they have it all planned out and send emails to each other and their contituents on how and when they'll take out those tools to use them in a coordinated attack. But do you honestly believe that it is just republicans? God, I hope not. 

Ask Palin's kids. Or ask the 'c--t' herself. Ask the family of Tony Snow. Democrats have their own little toolkit and game plan for intimidating conservatives. The race card may be their most effective tool. They've successfully intimidated conservatives with that issue and instead of allowing the country to move forward, they've found a great issue to keep the divide alive between whites and blacks. While you may get called unpatriotic, conservatives are labeled as racist. It doesn't matter if it is true or not, what matters is if it works. You even use the race issue yourself. 

So get over it, the garbage exists on both sides.

vicki, i too, would like to know how conservatives would answer your questions.
frankly, many of these issues that sit before you and millions across the country are completely absent from the stump campaign talk coming from the GOP-  part of it because they don't fundamentally believe in government helping people get a hand up- and part of it because they absolutely cannot relate to you.  
people here, like ameriken, constantly vote against their own best interests with absolutely no understanding that they are doing so.
some people cannot get out of a hole, yet vote for the very people that keep them there.
odd, isn't it?

ameriken, do you have any idea how many times McCain voted against any raise in the min. wage?
do you have any idea how many times McCain voted against women's issues?
health issues?
vet's issues?

i mean, come on!

Vicki said "I have watched this blog with interest and the sniping going back and forth is nothing more than a microcosm of what's happening all over the country. God help us if we can't get over these petty differences and come together or the entire nation is going to hell in a hand basket."

I couldn't agree with you more. 

As for your question, you include my name to answer your question, but I am the wrong one to ask as I have a growing distrust for government that started in the past 3 or 4 years. I distrust the people we have in government now, as well as those campaigning, which I have expressed in other posts. I do think either candidate will do ok in office, however I doubt either will actually be able to implement their promises. The health care issue has been going on for years and neither party has put forth an effective solution. They have not even offered a temporary bandaid. It seems like they are all going for the one big solution that will make history, yet they won't even implement whatever measures could help in the short term (even temporary changes in the tax code, such as tax credits or a deduction, would go a long way).  

As for the economy, I expect the economy to have it's ups and downs and to self correct, regardless of who is in office. So I was not overly concerned with the economy until Bush and Congress started dabbling with it....it's like putting an arsonist in charge of the fire department.

My own personal concerns are social security and immigration.
Nothing being done there either, from republican or democrat. I've always wanted choice in social security, but no one seems to be prochoice on that issue. Immigration? It's another long term problem that has been allowed to fester regardless of party. Maybe a little headway during Bush, but otherwise it keeps getting tabled.   

So, what is McCain going to do for your family? In my view, the same as Obama, and the same as they've all been doing......nothing. 

I am self employed and see health insurance and retirement (as well as everything else) as my own responsibility. I am confident I will manage those issues long before government ever does.

David:  i don't know if i would call it a success but i can say that it built my character.  as a child i learned to be strong just to survive so if i can do it so can others.  parents need to plan for their children and educate them.  if not, it will be left up to the children to figure it out as i did.  they will become extremely responsible people with self-confidence built by their abilities.  i can tell you that there are so many programs available for kids now and so many opportunities that it is not that difficult to get an education IF you are willing to take that step.  the government can assist but should not be a crutch to lean on and a handout.  that does not teach people to be self-reliant and give them the can-do, independent  spirit to be innovative and successful on their own.  Those are the business owners of tomorrow.  If a person wants an education and to be successful, all it takes is the willpower.  Everyone deserves success if they are willing to sacrifice and work for it as i did!  Paying their dues will make them stronger, more productive and better citizens!

David-  the government cannot make companies pay taxes.  they can mandate a certain tax but the companies factor the tax into their products and as you talked about, we pay for it.  the only way that i see you can make a company pay for taxes is a law that would be massive to say the least.  it would have to include a mandate that as a result of the taxes, the company could not layoff employees, have to stay in the US, never close their doors or increase prices on goods, and demand that employee's get increases.  that would be along the same lines as communism.  who would start a business then?  otherwise, i can't see how businesses can be made to pay taxes but then again there may be other ideas i haven't thought of.

142
http://www.mlive.com/elections/national/index.s...

Ken, there are individuals on the liberal end of the spectrum who embrace unsavory tactics.......the difference i am speaking of is that of LEADERSHIP, and the as a leader, Obama does not allow hate speech at his events. 
We see a congress woman from Minnesota (Republican Rep. Michele Bachmann) saying Obama "may have anti-American views,"
People attending events at Palin campaign events are heard to be shouting "Kill Him" when she talks of Obama "paling around with terrorists".........this is a bit more that making a sick joke on someone like Palin's family, or Mr. Snow........No, it is inciting violence,AND  Ms. Palin showed NO LEADERSHIP in allowing this to go on.
NO,  there seems to be garbage accepted by the leadership of the republicans, which is not the case of their adversaries.

Titus:
"...................it would have to include a mandate that as a result of the taxes, the company could not layoff employees, have to stay in the US, never close their doors or increase prices on goods, and demand that employee's get increases.  that would be along the same lines as communism"
So, because of semantics we should just let business off the hook, while wage earners carry the burden.....nice!
Glad to know that's what i fought to defend....(perhaps i should get a dividend from every American Company)

Vicki:  i can sympathize with you as i have at times in my life been without insurance also.  the problem i have with anything government run is that it is always mismanaged and what they promise they never deliver.  there is also a very high premium to be paid when government steps in.  for instance, some service may cost $2 out in the private sector but by the time the government bureacracy is in play the same service could be $500.  that is not what we need.  they can't manage one program well and it turns out to be a disaster.  i have a friend whose husband is in the Army and has whatever insurance the vets have.  My friend has had numerous life threatening healthcare problems and the insurance and doctors she was made to use has been a detriment to her health.  she had operations that the doctors botched and she had to fight for insurance coverage and care.  It is lousy.  We all know how screwed up social security and medicare is.  that is why i don't want a part of any government program.  It is also unreasonable to expect the taxpayers to be able to afford healthcare for others along with billions of dollars added to the deficit to do so and the burdens of taking care of their families.  John McCain's program is not the best but it is better than Obama's and does offer choices and freedom to choose and encourages competition.  Competition will help bring prices down.  being in the investment world i understand how valuable timing is when retiring.  according to the experts, everyone is supposed to gradually get out of stocks starting 10 to 12 years before retirement so it decreases the chances that they are not hit hard by a decrease in the market around retirement age.  but in reality people are always told this by their advisors.  however, John McCain has the best economic plan.  this country cannot survive unless jobs are created NOW and not on Obama's timeline of creating jobs building infrastructure and creating alternative uses of energy.  that will take forever on Obama's plan to create these  jobs and i'll be willing to bet those jobs will not be highly paid.  you can't build jobs by taxing those who hire people to the extent they can't compete globally.  Obama does not tell you that companies never pay taxes.  the costs are attached to the products they sell and we have to buy them.  so everything we buy will continue to go up.  i can't pay more for my groceries as most others cannot either but that is what will happen.  competition will not work as well because companies will not be able to compete with foreign goods or compete overseas.  you can't increase taxes on companies that are laying off or who are hurting.  it will make it worse.  John McCain will encourage investment in our economy by lowering capital gains taxes.  those who can invest will be able to help build the markets back up thus strengthening our economy and dollar.  if Obama raises capital gains taxes, people will not invest in the companies and the economy will continue to spiral.  i could go on but we need companies to produce revenue to be able to create jobs to bring in tax revenue to the government.  it can't be done from the bottom up, i.e., look at the stimulus package.  it didn't work but increased our debt.  poor people do not hire people.  if jobs aren't created, tax revenue will decrease and it will affect social security, veteran's programs, education, etc.  Under Obama's plan our country will sink further into debt and cause our children and grandchildren to suffer trying to pay for it.  there is also an issue w/Obama saying he will cut taxes on 95% of americans then just in the last two days he changed it to 95% of working americans, which is not true because that would produce enough revenue to cover the huge burdens we face.  40% of americans do not pay taxes because they don't make enough money for the tax rates to kick in.  anyway,  these justifications are not takes from the campaign. they are the essentials of a good economy.

David:  most businesses would not be able to survive if they didn't pass the taxes to their customers.  there are so many businesses out there now that are operating on a thin margin, esp. in this economy.  they would shut their doors and go bankrupt.

Also i want to comment on the minimum wage issue.  I understand both sides but agree with McCain's decision.  Startup businesses are great for this country and we cannot do without them.  however, most fail within five years.  depending on the funding and costs, some of these businesses cannot afford more than minimum wage esp if they are in a low-margin industry.  You can't discourage the growth of these businesses.  i agree that this is not a decent wage but people have choices (see my post about my situation).  People have choices of where they work and the education they receive to better themselves.  that is one of many reasons American is great.  when i was growing up most of the minimum wage jobs were for teenagers and low-skilled workers.

"People have choices of where they work and the education they receive to better themselves.  that is one of many reasons American is great.  when i was growing up most of the minimum wage jobs were for teenagers and low-skilled workers."

Titus....i used to think that way too, then i met someone from Compton California.......he was in my company (A Co. 1st/508th 82nd Abn)
he escaped Compton to join the army......but then not every one is physically fit to join the army.......
What about them?  Screw 'em, huh?
I worked minimum wage.  I also had a car my dad bought me so i could drive to my minimum wage job.   But i found everyone isn't that lucky.
What kinda jobs are in Compton, i wonder?   Yeah, they have a choice.....sure. y'a bet c'ha!

@ David # 148:


OK David, every step of this dialogue feels as if you want to 'one up' republicans. Is there are purpose? Where are you going with all this finger pointing? Do you hope to solve an issue? By calling republicans 'unamerican' does it make you feel better because they call liberals 'unamerican'?

Yeah, I'm disappointed to hear what some republicans are saying. I am equally disappointed at things some democrats have said. Obama has also made some condescending and offensive remarks. People on the right are just as offended by these comments from Democrats as people on the left are from comments by Republicans. 

Ok, they're both offended. So, now what? Are you going to try to one up me again and tell me that you are more offended? Or do you want me to say "David thinks republicans are worse than democrats, so now I should vote for Obama". 

If you want, say something else to show that republicans are worse or democrats are better, or whatever else it is you are trying to prove, and we'll leave it at that. If you don't want to say anything else, I'm ok with that too.  

Meanwhile, you often mention that you too have voluntarily served our great country, and I truly appreciate your dedication and service and I am sincerely sorry to hear you suffered a disability as a result.

David:  forgive my stupidity but where is Compton?  I can't answer you until i know that.

Compton is a ghetto ville near Oakland......

"OK David, every step of this dialogue feels as if you want to 'one up' republicans. Is there are purpose? Where are you going with all this finger pointing? Do you hope to solve an issue? By calling republicans 'unamerican' does it make you feel better because they call liberals 'unamerican'?"

Point is, Ken, that the LEADERSHIP of the republican party is allowing hate speech to empower their base.  This is in contrast to a few liberals who are righteously angry to spew some hate.....but it isn't sanctioned by the LEADERSHIP OF THE  Democratic party.

ok.  now that i know where Compton is..... it won't change my answer.  People have to do what I did as an adult and my father did when i was growing up-MOVE!  it was tough and as kids we moved 18 times in 16 years but we did it.  remember you are talking to someone who doesn't have a lot of sympathy when it comes to folks providing for themselves.  how is it that needy people are so much better than i am that they don't have to put the efforts i have put into my life and worked as hard as i have to succeed?  How do they deserve handouts instead of working like i did?  Striving and working to do better makes you a stronger person.  I don't think this encourages people to reach their potential and appreciate their success as much.

David said....."I used to work minimum wage.  I also had a car my dad bought me so i could drive to my minimum wage job.   But i found everyone isn't that lucky. What kinda jobs are in Compton, i wonder?   Yeah, they have a choice.....sure. y'a bet c'ha!"

I agree with Titus.

Yeah, people do have a choice....live or die. When I got out of high school, I made the decision to join the Marine Corps rather than go to college. I thought I would attend while in the Corps, but I just never got around to it. My MOS was 3051.....supply. Only good for working in a warehouse when I got out for minimum wage. Which I did. By this time, I had a wife and 2 kids. NYC was a tough place to try and live on minimum wage. Not much opportunity for a HS grad in one of the costliest places to live in the US.

We put our pennies together, rolled the dice, and moved out of state. Though throughout my life I swore I would never do sales, because I was too quiet, too shy, and did not have an ability to do it,, I somehow fell into a sales job. It was both the best and worst job I ever had. Worst because I worked from 10 am until as late as midnight, sometimes staying in another city on weekends. Worst because my stomach hurt at the thought of calling on people to ask them to buy.

On the other hand, it was also the best job I ever had because their training taught me that we were only limited by our own mindsets and there was a lot of that 'positive thinking' kind of stuff. I learned that I didn't have to live at minimum wage and that I did have a choice. Help from the govt was not an option. Even though sales wasn't for me, nor was it the kind of job I wanted nor had the personality for, I knew with hard work, I did have a choice for my future. However, I kept at it, gained more experience, forced myself to overcome my shyness, and then found a better job.  

I kept pushing myself and now I am self employed. Still put in a lot of hours, it is still not easy, it has ups and downs, I don't have anyone to give me free insurance or 401k's or any of that other stuff, but on the other hand it made me stronger and more independent.

I am thankful I didn't fall into the trap of thinking my only choice was a minimum wage job. If I complained about my plight and how difficult things were and everything I didn't have, I'd probably still be working minimum wage jobs.

So, I will have to agree with Titus when he writes "People have choices of where they work and the education they receive to better themselves.  That is one of many reasons America is great."

I do agree there should be some limited help that can be provided for by government, so that one can borrow or earn the jump they need to get started. However government should never be a means of support, handouts, or something one could become dependent on. Government involvement for the masses, as a general rule, should be limited.
 
Thousands of people legally immigrate to the US without knowing English, and having no skills, and somehow they find a way to succeed.

But success only comes to those who want it.

Ken.....thanks for your supply service.  And oh, all marines are infantry first, right?
But what about all the kids that are  not fit to serve......screw 'em?

Yeah, infantry first. Everyone from grunt to cook has to qualify on rifle.

As for 'screw em', well I have a suggestion, but, I'll bet that most people are too selfish to want this choice.

IMO, the best option is for people to just give their time, money, and energy toward helping others. Thats my preference. Right now we waste too much time and money on two presidential campaigns and toward petitioning what government should do for the less fortunate at someone elses expense. 

Thats not helping anyone. Actually, that's screwing them. It's shirking our own responsibility toward each other. I am not interested in passing my personal social responsibility off on someone else, i.e., the government. If I do, then I am really screwing them. 

We can 'spread the wealth' out of our own pockets by choice, not by force of the government.

Now, that's change I can believe in.

Just a little on negative campaigning.  If I'm honest, I'm glad there is some push back from us Dems.  We have been bullied and quite frankly, we have not fought back hard enough (See Dukakis, Kerry, Gore).  Some of us on our side have wished that Barack would push back even harder than he has but he has brilliantly fortified his campaign with superior organization, money and a quick strike team to answer every dirty trick.  So instead of going down in the gutter with McCain, Barack has, for the most part, risen above the nastiness.  Meanwhile, McCain has all but sold his soul.  I don't blame him because it has worked in the past but this is a new day and new candidate.  McCain's failure to recognize this and continue with the same old politics and same old tactics speaks volumes.  It's good that these campaigns are so vigorous.  Mccain has been exposed and is dangerously close to undoing the prestigous record he has spent a lifetime building.  When it's all over he should apologize to the American people in general and Barack specifically.  He should apologize to his family for hiring the very people that besmerched them in 2000.  He should apologize to his fellow republicans for running the worst campaign in presidential political history.  I will personally settle for you to simply go back to AZ, retire and never be heard from again.

Adios Maverick!

Yeah, seems there was once a former navy seal who served in VietNam.....and a poor little rich kid who avoided service in VietNam by joining the National Guard.  Except the hero was portrayed by Bush Jr.
-and the other guy?
Was trashed by Swift Boat
Yes, it is a new day Simonesdad...the folks that brought us "Swift Boat" are trying to sell us Bill Ayers .........why ain't it working?
"Talk to your parents about voting John McCain"

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7304299...

just to make you conservatives better.....

Ameriken,  fine.  you didn't lump me.  thanks for not lumping me.  I hate being lumped.  :)
 
Regarding your responses to Vicki: "So, what is McCain going to do for your family? In my view, the same as Obama, and the same as they've all been doing......nothing."
So why are you voting for McCain?  Do you just like him better?   
"I am self employed and see health insurance and retirement (as well as everything else) as my own responsibility. I am confident I will manage those issues long before government ever does. "
How independent.  What would you say to the those who pull their own teeth and lay bricks at 81?  I think the 'pull yourself up by your bootstraps is a great concept, but what if you don't have boots?  And what if you can't find your bootstraps?  Would it hurt to pull up your neighbors bootstraps or offer them one of yours?  What happened to our sense of community?  No man (or woman) is an island!
 
Hobobobobob hoe - you never responded to Vicki.
 
Vicki- you are dead on.  thanks.

harrysmom "So why are you voting for McCain?  Do you just like him better?"

I think you've already asked me this and I have answered in other posts and it has nothing to do with like. No one should voting for someone because they 'like' them.  

To repeat: who McCain and Obama are during the campaign, are not what they'll be when in office. After the election, their campaign costumes will come off and they'll revert back to their old natural selves. It's human nature. I disagree less with McCain than I do Obama, and I have a little more trust for him than I do Obama. 

I've learned not to drink anyone's koolaid, be it GOP or Dem. McCain was not my first choice as he has quite of bit of liberal nature in him, and Obama is certainly way too far left for me. He and I don't see eye to eye on most issues.

Another reason for McCain is Congress is likely to remain in the hands of democrats. After years of a fully stocked republican government, there is an obvious danger of one party having complete control.  Our 3 part govt is a system of checks and balances. Thus, with the House and Senate in the hands of Democrats, there is the danger of of a repeat of the past 8 years, and the current Congress has already proven their inefficiencies.   

Government worked great in the 1990's with this balance of power. I like balance in anything and I'd like to continue the balance we have now. 

"What would you say to the those who pull their own teeth and lay bricks at 81?  Would it hurt to pull up your neighbors bootstraps or offer them one of yours?  What happened to our sense of community? No man (or woman) is an island!"

Again, already answered. If you back up to 154 and 156, you'll see the answer. I'll cut and paste it my previous answer here:

154: "I do agree there should be some limited help that can be provided for by government, so that one can borrow or earn the jump they need to get started. However government should never be a means of support, handouts, or something one could become dependent on. Government involvement for the masses, as a general rule, should be limited."

156 (response to David) [[I have a suggestion, but, I'll bet that most people are too selfish to want this choice.
IMO, the best option is for people to just give their time, money, and energy toward helping others. Thats my preference. Right now we waste too much time and money on two presidential campaigns and toward petitioning what government should do for the less fortunate at someone elses expense. 
Thats not helping anyone. Actually, that's screwing them. It's shirking our own responsibility toward each other. I am not interested in passing my personal social responsibility off on someone else, i.e., the government. If I do, then I am really screwing them. 
We can 'spread the wealth' out of our own pockets by choice, not by force of the government.
Now, that's change I can believe in.]]

Titus, you need to read this:

"Meet Sarah Palin’s radical right-wing pals"
Extremists Mark Chryson and Steve Stoll helped launch Palin’s political career in Alaska, and in return had influence over policy
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2008/10/10/palin_chryson/index.html

and Obama's left wing pals include, who?

Pelosi
Soros
Ayers
ACORN

the list goes on ...

"spread the wealth".........Ken, i suppose we need to just call it something else.  For those unable to work, or those that do work, yet can't afford health care, day care, to pay for transportation, or pay their utilities, or medicines......
What of them?  Screw 'em?  Because if we assist them with services....it will be socialism, huh?  (unlike government bailouts for investment firms and banks.....)

Toe...
Thanks for the info on Mark Chryson!

that's a pretty feeble response, Mr UC... pretty feeble.

none...NONE of the people that you mentioned, Mr UC had any part in forming policy, political direction, or decision making for Obama-
on the other hand, Palin has direct and absolute ties to these people - even to the point of having them in her office as governor...
they are members of the AIP.

facts...Mr UC... these often escape your notice.  The fact that you ignore these does not mean they do not exist.

@ David # 168.

Huh?

Obviously you haven't read a single thing I've posted.

here's another item to consider, Mr UC...
will the "first dude" even pass the security level necessary to be anyplace near  the white house?  hmmmm?

Indeed, if Todd Palin were applying for a job in the US government or at a contractor that required access to sensitive classified information -- a security clearance -- he would very likely be ineligible.
What's so bad about the AIP? The party officially renounces violence and disloyalty to the United States, even though its members often do not. The AIP has long been aligned closely with paramilitary militia groups -- the kind that fear black helicopters and a United Nations takeover of the US. Indeed, under the leadership of AIP's tough-talking founder, Joe Vogler, AIP allied itself with the Islamic dictatorship in Iran in 1993 so that Vogler could appear at the United Nations to appeal for Alaska's freedom from US "tyranny." A fellow AIP member murdered Vogler before he could take the UN stage. The current AIP chairwoman, Lynnette Clark, believes that Vogler's killer was framed and all but blames the Federal government for Vogler's "execution."

now this is pal-ing around.  try to recognize the difference., Mr UC

" forming policy, political direction, or decision making for Obama-"

says who ... barackobama.com?  Toe - you are so blind and only believe what YOU want to believe.  i'm done with you. I have to get back to work.

Ameriken thank you for your response. I agree wholeheartedly that Americans should help each other. I have embraced Ghandi's belief of "be the change you want to see in the world" and I'm trying to live up to it. The one thing I hope for if Barack is elected is that he will get good advisors and not "stay the course" when the train is headed for a cliff.

AmeriKen,
My point is....
Many hard working Americans cannot make it on the pay that business&industry has deemed appropriate.  The only way these Americans to survive is to subsidize these individuals in some way.  I guess this is the "redistribution of wealth" you and others talk about.

Dave said:

My point is....
Many hard working Americans cannot make it on the pay that business&industry has deemed appropriate.  The only way these Americans to survive is to subsidize these individuals in some way.  I guess this is the "redistribution of wealth" you and others talk about.
===========================================
Sorry Dave, that's not much of a point.

Companies do not pay what they deem appropriate.  They pay what the market will bear.  You know, the free market?!  If you want to earn more than you have to earn it.  Funny how earn actually means earn huh.

People can better themselves in the united states like nowhere else.  So if you cannot improve yourself here, what does that say about you?
Besides wanting a hand out that is.  Improve yourself Dave and you will get a hand UP.


out.

David #168 (in bold) said "spread the wealth".........Ken, i suppose we need to just call it something else." 
Yeah David, there is already another word for it.....it's called charity and volunteering. Donating your own personal money, time, and energy for someone who is less fortunate than you.
For those unable to work, or those that do work, yet can't afford health care, day care, to pay for transportation, or pay their utilities, or medicines......What of them?  Screw 'em? 

If you care.....I mean if you really are concerned about these people, you can and should have already been doing many things. If everyone did this, we wouldn't need to have this discussion. There is so much you can do:

1) If you have time and a car, then give them a ride.
2) Give even just a few dollars to charities that are helping people, or go buy a prescription for someone who doesn't have the money
3) Work at a soup kitchen to help feed people. 
4) Buy clothing for a poor person.
5) Give someone a ride to a job interview. 
6) Offer rides to other vets who don't have a car and take them to the VA with you. If they don't have money, then help them pay for their prescription.
7) Here's a great idea: start a 501c3 right at home where you are sitting right now at your computer, and instead of whining about conservatives, make phone calls to garner donations and give to those who don't have health care, food transportation, income, or wherever else you feel the need is. 
8) Talk to the greedy rich people and corporations and get them to donate.
9) Get more people involved in doing the same. Encourage all the other liberals who care about these people to do the same. 


That is what I do. I am just a lowly conservative who gives money when I can to a local shelter that feeds, clothes, and offers beds to people on the street. I believe in the power of charity and volunteering. I don't have any wealth, but of the little I do have, I try spread around voluntarily.

By doing something at the personal level, it's pro-choice, it exercises freedom, and does not infringe on anyone else's rights or money, and it shows you truly care.  

If you and others are not doing anything like that.....giving of your own time, money, and energy, then it is you who is screwing them, not me.

Vicki......I love it...... "be the change you want to see in the world". Most religions have some kind of variation around that point. The bible "This is true religion: to help the orphans and widows in their distress". In other words, true religion is helping someone who will never have the means or ability to repay you.

JFK was right on too, when he said "Ask not what your country can do for you, rather, ask what you can do for your country". His words are sorely needed today.
Thanks for posting in a respectful manner.

Charity is a concept well appreciated in the Conservative movement.  It is where any leftover private monies should go.  Some give more than others. 

Liberals average an income 6% above conservatives, and yet Conservatives give more to charity by a whopping 30%.  This isn't the wealthy either.  This is everyone.

This should not be surprising in one respect however. 

Liberals think all available money should go to the Govt. (extreme inefficiency), whereas Conservatives want to spend their leftover money where it will do the most good, in private and vastly more efficient charities.

out.

ameriken: 
Your comment #177 is right on target and i would like to add one more to your list that i personally do.
Help that person better themselves in some way depending on their needs, such as teaching them to manage their finances, helping them to find a better job/training/schooling, etc. 
Boy, we conservatives are horrible, selfish folks who are just trying to spread hatred-NOT!  i can't tell you how many times i've read that stupid, ignorant comment on these threads. 
I JUST WANT TO KNOW HOW MUCH BETTER THE GOVERNMENT COULD DO THAN THIS?  WHAT A JOKE!  WHY DO LIBERALS THINK GOVERNMENT HANDOUTS ARE BETTER?
 

 
 

ameriken:
You are so on the mark with your comment #177.  I also volunteer to help those less fortunate and would like to add a few more to your list.

1. Volunteer to help someone with his/her finances

2. Assist them in developing their interviewing skills and a resume.

3. Assist someone in applying for college to obtain skills necessary for gaining better employment.  

We conservatives are very generous folks and are more efficient in assisting those in need than the government.  (and we are not lazy!)  Leave it up to liberals to want to use the government to take more of our money and waste it while helping people very little in the process.
After speaking to quite a few folks, I realized why they are leaning towards Obama.  They told me they wanted Obama to be elected because he would hand them a check and that they expected government help.  How selfish!  One was a college student who was having trouble making ends meet.  i suggested that she get a job in a call center at a certain company where she would make twice as much as she is currently making.  they would provide her benefits complete with health insurance, give her a flexible schedule and pay for her college education.  Before i finished, she cut me off and said she had to go.  now my next sentence was going to be that i knew someone that could possibly assist her in getting the job.  Now she was the same person who just told me that the government needed to help her and she didn't even have health insurance.  THIS IS THE LIBERAL ATTITUDE AT ITS BEST!  LIBERALS:  I DON'T WANT THE GOVERNMENT DECIDING WHO NEEDS HELP BECAUSE THEY DON'T DO A GOOD JOB AT IT AND THIS PERSON WOULD BE SOMEONE THEY WOULD HAND MY HARDEARNED MONEY TO!!!!  This is just one example of the people that i have run into.  it is so wrong but is typical of the people that you guys want to help!  Oh, the conservatives are just so evil!  I don't think so!  I'm sure you will ignore this comment!

bullshit

comment ignored!

Want to guess how much Amber gives to charity? 

Lol.....


out.

Titus and Hobo you never responded to my initial question. I'm still waiting. As for the rest, I believe that grassroots works (you know the kind Barack has been lambasted for?) is indeed the best way to get things done on a local level BUT healthcare is a national issue or should be. Education is a national issue because we should not have such extremes in achievement. Wars and when/if/where we should start them are a national issue. (I served in the Air Force for 17 years so anyone who tries to question my knowledge of the military will get a smackdown). Sexuality, abortion, religion are NOT national issues because I don't want anyone in my bedroom and I surely do not want to get into anyone elses. Yes, I believe in life, but I worry about those who are already born not just watitng to be. Sen Obama wants the change to come to Washington not from  Washington and asks for people to serve this country. I am a black, center left democrat married to a white, center right independent who raised a moderate Republican and have a 14 and 12 year old who are still in the formative stage. I was a single parent for 8 years which included 4 years of college and my first four years in the military. I have never been on welfare and do not anticipate ever being on welfare. My husband and I have advanced degrees and under Barack's plan would pay more not less taxes. I am LDS but conversion and my husband is Brethren which is an offshoot of the Lutheran church. My husband owns guns, which I hate, and he thinks we should ship all the illegal immigrants back from wherever they came and they can figure out whatever comes next; where I take a somewhat kinder gentler approach. I dare any of you to try and fit me into a demographic. It is not that I believe conservatives are all the same, I'm just curious why you believe all liberals are. PS I give of my money and my time for charity and my community and thanks to Ameriken I'm thinking about forming a 501C3 to help people pay for their dental care.  responses?

Vicki- I am with you all the way.  I will not be getting a tax increase with Obama, but I would not mind in any way.


I think the most dangerous thing that has occurred in this election is that the class warfare that exists in the closets of the American people has reared its ugly head.  I am white, middle class, female, and hold an advanced degree.  It is easy for me to close my eyes and not see what is happening in other parts of the country, but a quick view at some youtube videos outside of McCain rallies literally sends chills up my spine.   


People can say we are pulling a 'race card' if we want, but as an old man in Indiana so 'eloquently' put it when comparing Obama to a terrorist said 'if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it must be a duck.'  So, I'm pointing to the pink elephant (or the duck) in the room:  McCain and Palin know that  people in certain parts of America are scared of anyone who isn't White, Christian, and Conservative and they are playing on that.  I mean, we all know this but for some reason the Republicans on here refuse to acknowledge the nasty and scary tactics that are being used to fuel that fear.


It's called desperation and it's bad for America.  Now, I can understand how some of you defend it because some of you on here don't seem to have much intellectual curiosity or cerebral flexibility.  But UC, can you defend these tactics?  Can you see how they are harmful to America????


I'm so tired of these class wars and I cannot wait for the election to be over.  We are all tired and we are all fed up.  Tensions are high and everyone from Biden, Kerry, McCain, and Palin are making gaffs on the stump that exhibit everyone's fatigue.  Is there going to be a time when the Republicans can simply stick to the issues?


For example- Joe the Carpenter.  Now I watched that video of his exchange with Obama and nobody can tell me that it wasn't a setup and that Joe the Carpenter is actually Joe the Tool.  Forbes has already reported the ridiculousness of his assertion that he will make over a quarter of a million, even 15 years after running the supposed business that isn't even for sale.  Whatever, Joe has made a public fool of himself and McCain is happy to help him out for his own gain.  


The thing is that Joe isn't a black woman, or me, or probably many of you.  Joe is code, and you all know what it's code for.  This is class warfare- pitting people against one another based on arbitrary things like race, class, and gender.  It is, in my opinion, dangerous.


Another rant I need to have this morning...since when did fellow citizens become the harbingers of what is and what is not American in this country?  How do we go around calling one person more American than another?  What is the litmus test for "American" and on what grounds do we base this test?  Who creates the test?  Who gets to grade it?  What is next....is my Christianity going to be called to question?  How about my motherness or my whitness?  Since when did we constrain each other to the point that being anything but "Joe the Carpenter" invalidated your rights to participate equally in the discourses of life?  


Okay, I'm done.  Thanks Vicki.

How can it be unpatiotic to pay higher taxes?  But is is patriotic for me to send my son into battle and die for the country.  You can have my money I want my kid back.

Harrysmom,
 I think that reducing people into "catch phrases" such as Joe the Plumber, Joe six pack, soccer mom's, hockey mom's etc., keeps you from dealing with the actual people just the stereotype. I am excited about the level of enthusiasm generated by this election, I'm just a little concerned what some people are excited about. I'm originally from Cincinnati (live in northern MN currently) and recently some guy hung a ghost of Obama upside down in his yard as part of his Halloween decorations. This was somewhat upsetting to his next door neighbor whose biracial grandson discovered it. He willingly admitted it was a racial not a political statement because Barack is only half American..any guesses which half?...and that only white christians should be president because white christians formed this country. Sigh.

Yea- I saw a video of a woman claiming that 'This is a Christian Nation"!  Uh?  I know that they explained the Period of Enlightenment in school and taught that this was what fueled our Revolution and informed our Constitution.  I saw the news report about the Halloween decoration.  I have a 'change' pumpkin on my porch.  I'm waiting for it to get smashed.  If it does, I have more on the back porch to put out.  :)  


I'm excited about the energy too.  I've connected with people from neighboring states (I'm in purple VA) who are coming here and volunteering energy, time, and money to get us to the blue line.  It's like a train that can't be stopped- but this class warfare is threatening to take the wind out of our sails....


11 more days.  We can do it.  :)

Vicki said (#188): "I dare any of you to try and fit me into a demographic. It is not that I believe conservatives are all the same, I'm just curious why you believe all liberals are. PS I give of my money and my time for charity and my community and thanks to Ameriken I'm thinking about forming a 501C3 to help people pay for their dental care.  responses?"

Vicki, I love your posts as they are non-offensive and invite a friendly dialogue. Most folks lack in this tact. 

You mention demographics....'stereotyping' is normal human nature. We're all guilty. You defended yourself by saying you don't believe all conservatives are the same, yet you asked 'why do you believe all liberals are (the same)?' Let me respond with a question: Vicki, why do you believe all conservatives think that all liberals are the same?

On the 501c3.......awesome idea! I've only had 3 responses to my post #177 about giving our own money and time instead of taking it from someone else. Only 3 responses in support....you,  Hobo, and Titus.

That's way too sad......so many people act like they are on a higher moral ground because they want to vote for someone who will use government to take money from someone else and use it to fix our social ills, yet they don't give of themselves. This is just way too sad. Social problems are not something for government to resolve by force.......it is something that should be done at the 'grassroots' level.....by you, by me, and by every individual liberal and conservative who wants to help those who are out of work, who cant afford health insurance, or pay for food or medicine, or who doesn't have a ride to the doctors office.

It should come out of our time and our own pockets voluntarily, not by government and not by taxation. 

I find it to be awfully sad that we've replaced our personal social responsibilities to each other by using government to force it upon someone else. Isn't that lazy and selfish to demand someone else do what we are not willing to do ourselves? 

Kudos on the 501c3 and for the time and money you give!

Ameriken I like your style and simply say "touche". I guess it's the far edges of any belief system who get the press and that's too bad.

Ameriken, I disagree that it's human nature to stereotype.  I believe it is something that is hoisted onto us by a corporate culture that needs a marketing strategy and then sold to us through a media that laps up anything that is fed to them by their sponsors.  My Marxian viewpoint won't garner much popularity around here, but it is not unAmerican nor unPatriotic to voice it.


As Eutopian as my ideology might be, I am not as optimistic as you are about individual ability to take care of neighbors.  Sure, many people do it, but many don't.  Simply look at our problems that are directly attributable to the Gekkovian ethos of greed.  I think we live in a country whose basic qualities include 'individualism' which should be mediated by a collective body- such as the government.


sorry if I'm partisan in my posts.  tensions run high in such a divisive election.

Titus, #180 and 181.....that's awesome. Conservatives are usually quiet about their giving and volunteer work, yet many liberals have this false claim that conservatives are 'uncaring'. 

Why should government do the job we should be doing ourselves? Spreading the wealth (Obama's words, not mine) should be done by every individual on a voluntary level. Whoever the next president is should be  clean up the waste and unnecessary spending and attacking the deficit, before they tell us to send more to them. Actually, they should be giving tax breaks to everyone......so that we can take care of the social problems and spread the wealth voluntarily, as conservatives have already been doing.

Found this info on the charitable giving of our candidates:

McCain: 2007 $405,409 income, $105,467, or 26% to charity 

Obama: 2007 $4,200,000 income, $240,000 or 5.7% to charity

Palin: 2007 $166,080 income, $4,880 or 3% to charity

Biden: 2007 $320,000 income: $995 or .31% to charity

So, who is really spreading the wealth? Biden calls defines raising taxes as 'patriotic', yet he won't even give more out of his own income?

Patriotism begins with the people giving freely to this country, not with the government taxing forcefully. Maybe some liberals will disagree with that, however, I'd rather continue sharing by choice to others, than to have it taken from others by force of law.

Ameriken, If I could pick apart that 26% number for a minute.  McCain has a huge amassed wealth- his income is nowhere near indicative of his income.  I would argue that the number is inflated and if you want a real examination of charitable activities of the candidates, you examine the percentage of their WEALTH that is donated.  Besides that, are those numbers accurate?  Is the source reliable?

"If men were angels there would be no need for government" James Madison.

Vicki...191......I agree, and that ties into what harrysmom said, the media hypes the fringes, labels them as left or right, and then we take that image and apply it to everyone else.

harrysmom said....... I think we live in a country whose basic qualities include 'individualism' which should be mediated by a collective body- such as the government. So, who defines mediation how far that mediation goes? Supposing we get a government where mediation becomes suppression against the will and desires of the people?

Hitler mediated individualism according to his own definition. Mao mediated it. Mussonlini mediated it. The Soviet Union mediated it. The monarchy in England mediated it. Chavez is mediating it. Castro has mediated it.

Isn't individualism what our founders sought to preserve through our
declaration of independence, bill of right, and constitution?    

Shouldn't we not be inviting the government to mediate, but rather shouldn't we be guarding ourselves from a government that wants to intervene with our own individualism and rights?

You said you are not as optimistic as I am are about individual ability to take care of neighbors, so there should be a collective body to mediate them (govt). 

The analogy I hear is "Most people are greedy, so lets put greedy people into a collective body to mediate the greedy people."

That government is best which governs the least, because its people discipline themselves.
Thomas Jefferson

Ameriken, I'm a sociologist- you can't get me to agree that a mindful, democratic government could turn into Naziism  :)  I'm not biting.  


We are full of great platitudes, but what about 12 days from now?  Ameriken, just watch some of the garbage being thrown around by extremists on the left and the right.  Are you absolutely positive that these people are 100% able to self govern?  Moreover- are you sure that you want them to govern you?  I'm not willing to make that leap.  We do still live in a democracy.  Don't forget that.

Vicki:

It is hard for me to answer a "what can the government do for me and my family" question because i have a different view of what the government's role in peoples lives should be.  They don't handle any program well so the less they deal with, the better.  I don't want the government in my affairs. 

Healthcare policy creation, education, national security and taking care of our vets, policies that encourage job creation and building infracture should be the majority of government's responsibilities.  Taxes should be low for everyone but everyone should pay something.  In general, I don't think the government is there to provide healthcare, retirement or funds for education.  That is our responsibility.  however, the government should ensure the healthcare system operates on fair policies that enable people to afford it and to ensure everyone can get insurance if they want it.  I don't think people should get free services just because they are unwilling to work and/or have children they can't take care of.  There are special circumstances but there has to be something done to limit this so the taxpayers aren't wasting their money.  Healthcare is a national issue but should be dealt with from a free market prospective given the problems the government has with mismanaging any program.  John McCain's program helps people to choose their own healthcare and encourages competition to bring prices down.  If we could get the lobbists and crooks out of washington, our healthcare costs would also drop.  It is also unreasonable to expect the taxpayers to be able to afford healthcare for others along with billions of dollars added to the deficit to do so and the burdens of taking care of their own families.  

Education is also important but i don't think the problems can be solved from the federal level and money is not always a fix.  Vouchers may not be working for everyone but it is working in some places so I think John McCain wants to improve the program.  but i'm not up on the issue because i think the probem has to be addressed at the root cause first--parents and students and up the ladder from there.  The federal government should have limited involvement especially since it is not a one-size fits all issue.  

Job creation is extremely important and the government should implement policies that encourage employment instead of undermining it.  We cannot expect to raise taxes on people who employ us and then expect to have jobs, especially in this economy.  It won't work.  John McCain has the plan that will end up helping the middle class.  Besides doubling child credits, he wants to create jobs.  I also like his idea of letting senior's keep their money in their 401K plans longer without having to pay penalties due to the market decrease.  the more jobs that are created, the more opportunities we have.  Obama's plan is not immediate and will not create the higher paying jobs.  I was on a business call about from 3:30 until after 4:00 today so i didn't get to watch the market during that time.  About 4:10 a broker called me and told me to look at the market.  in that short period of time the dow went from about -200 to +150 (don't remember the exact numbers).  the market had been down all day until the news of the tighting of the Presidential race came in.  At that exact moment the market shot up.  Investors do not like the government intervening in company's profits by even the idea of raising their taxes, and they like McCain's tax policy because it is condusive to a stronger economy.  today was proof of that.  any time the government talks about raising taxes, the markets are affected negatively especially in this economy.  this will affect our jobs and the prices we pay for everything we buy.  

So in a nutshell John McCain can help your family's healthcare and create jobs immediately and keep the prices you pay for food, clothing, etc. down.  Of course, he understands foreign policy and has personal experiences in times of war that will make him a better leader.  He can make the right decisions and will listen to the experts like General Patraus (sp).  Obama has only talk to share with the American people because he only served about 100 weeks as a senator.  

That is my answer to your question!

The government has never managed our money well, and we should not trust them to manage it now.  For every dollar we put in to help others they spend most of that for the beauracratic mess they put in place to manage it.  So we should have control of our money.  i would then be willing to give more of mine to help others that could not help themselves because i would be able to see where it is going.  i don't want people who aren't willing to take responsibility for their families to receive a dime.  everyone should take personal responsibility for their affairs and not ask for handouts!  The government just throws my hardearned money out the door as people pass by.  the government can't govern itself and definitely doesn't govern people well.

harrysmom......I am not at all an anarchist. I do believe in government......just a small, limited stay-out-of-my-face-unless-I-cause-trouble government.  8)

I believe that, as long as there is plenty, poverty is evil.
Robert Kennedy

What is objectionable, what is dangerous about extremists, is not that they are extreme, but that they are intolerant. The evil is not what they say about their cause, but what they say about their opponents.
Robert Kennedy

Oh, but what is more dangerous is people who are not willing to take responsibility for their families and want others to give them "help."  Especially since we have so many issues in this world right now like the economy that have to be addressed before we end up in a depression.  If Obama is elected, if we are not in a depression, we will be close.  Millions of people will continue to lose their jobs; therefore, the tax revenues from businesses and people will be reduced and our government will either shut down or come close to it.  there will be no handouts (which will be the only positive thing i can see besides a possibility of the sense of entitlement vanishing).  that is how dire i think the situation will be if Obama gets elected.  it is easy to see that if you look at his economic plan.  However, Obama is counting on people who don't understand the economy and how all of the pieces of the puzzle are put together.  Those are the only folks that will vote for him unless you are talking about the super rich who won't be affected anyway.

The document is 67 pages, called "An Examination of Obama's Use of Hidden Hypnosis Techniques in His Speeches"

It sounds absurd, but to those who have taken the time to actually read the evidence, it is overwhelming.

Experts in hypnosis and NLP including psychologists are calling this analysis of Obama's hypnotic speech patterns exceptional and excellent. Regardless how much doubt you may have, be prepared for a truly mind-blowing reading experience that will explain the whole otherwise unexplainable "Obama phenomenon."

This very interesting document is also published here, and is spreading fast around the web. You can find it by Googling for "An Examination of Obama's Use of Hidden Hypnosis Techniques in His Speeches."

http://www.scribd.com/doc/7470439/Obamas-Use-of-Hi dden
-Hypnosis-Techniques-in-His-Speeches

also here:

http://www.pennypresslv.com/Obama%27s_Use_of_Hidde n_Hyp
nosis_techniques_in_His_Speeches.pdf


The evidence is really awakening. The analysis goes through hundreds of aspects of Obama's application of Ericksonian covert hypnosis to his speeches, body language, and campaign. It not only proves Obama is using hypnosis, but that his techniques are highly deceptive, designed to sideline rational judgment. Over and over, Obama says one thing while he sends another hidden message. The analysis not only catches Obama in such deceptive hypnotic acts again and again, but also reveals some other very disturbing aspects of Obama's nature.

I think the media will have a hard time explaining later on why they chose not to cover this evidence thoroughly. I would say the media has a duty to reveal this evidence.

AmeriKen:
".......stay-out-of-my-face-unless-I-cause-trouble government.  8"
-Sounds like a Nazi Police State you're hoping for.....

Titus says:
".....In general, I don't think the government is there to provide healthcare, retirement or funds for education.  That is our responsibility.  however, the government should ensure the healthcare system operates on fair policies that enable people to afford it and to ensure everyone can get insurance if they want it."

-So the government's responsibility is to provide "welfare" for the insurance industry?  If a worker hasn't the means to afford a policy, well then what about those people?  In this "Real World".....there are lots of people who do not have the means to buy a policy. 

And Anon......i guess i am hypnotized?

Mr. Obama has met challenge after challenge, growing as a leader and putting real flesh on his early promises of hope and change. He has shown a cool head and sound judgment. We believe he has the will and the ability to forge the broad political consensus that is essential to finding solutions to this nation’s problems.
In the same time, Senator John McCain of Arizona has retreated farther and farther to the fringe of American politics, running a campaign on partisan division, class warfare and even hints of racism. His policies and worldview are mired in the past. His choice of a running mate so evidently unfit for the office was a final act of opportunism and bad judgment that eclipsed the accomplishments of 26 years in Congress.
Given the particularly ugly nature of Mr. McCain’s campaign, the urge to choose on the basis of raw emotion is strong. But there is a greater value in looking closely at the facts of life in America today and at the prescriptions the candidates offer. The differences are profound.
for entire article:

The Philadelphia Daily News endorsed Obama on Friday:
"In concrete terms, the United States is faced with a range of crises — economic, military, diplomatic — that are increasingly complex, that defy ideology and demand an uncommon, united effort. Failure to address them in the past has put the well-being of our children and our planet in doubt. Failure to address them now will, we fear, seal their doom.
"But history also includes things that are less prosaic, more poetic: We could be on the verge of picking a president who symbolizes what our country stands for. Opportunity. Equality. Leadership. And big ideas. In the process, we as a country may be becoming the change we want to see.
"That's why we endorse Barack Obama."

Jim Leach, Former Congressman from Iowa

"For me, the national interest comes before party concerns, particularly internationally.  We do need a new direction in American policy, and Obama has a sense of that."

Lincoln Chafee, Former United States Senator from Rhode Island

"As I look at the candidates in order who to vote for, certainly my kind of conservatism was reflected with Senator Obama, and those points are that we're fiscally conservative, we care about revenues matching expenditures, we also care about the environment, I think it's a traditional conservative value to care about clean air and clean water."

William Weld, Former Governor of Massachusetts

"It's not often you get a guy with his combination of qualities, chief among which I would say is the deep sense of calm he displays, and I think that's a product of his equally deep intelligence."

Arne Carlson, Former Governor of Minnesota

"I think we have in Barack Obama the clear possibility of a truly great president.  I would contend that it's the most important election of my lifetime."

Wayne Gilchrest, Congressman from Maryland

"We can't use four more years of the same kind of policy that's somewhat haphazard, which leads to recklessness."

Richard Riordan, Former Mayor of Los Angeles

"I'm still a Republican, but I still will always vote for the person who I think will do the best job."

Lowell Weicker, Former Governor and Senator from Connecticut

"At issue is not the partisan politics of two parties, rather the image we have of ourselves as Americans.  Senator Obama brings wisdom, kindness, and common sense to what is both his and our quest for a better America."

Jim Whitaker, Fairbanks, Alaska Mayor

"If we are as a nation concerned with energy, then our consideration should be a national energy policy that is not predicated on crude oil 50 years into the future.  We need to get to it, and I think Barack Obama is very clear in that regard."

Linwood Holton, Former Governor of Virginia

"Obama has a brain, and he isn't afraid to use it."

Government Officials:
Colin Powell, Secretary of State under Bush 43

"...he has met the standard of being a sucessful president, being an exceptional president.  I think he is a transformational figure.  He is a new generation coming into the world-- onto the world state, onto the American stage, and for that reason I'll be voting for Senator Barack Obama."

Douglas Kmiec, Head of the Office of Legal Counsel under Reagan & Bush 41

"I was first attracted to government by Ronald Reagan, who lives in our national memory as a great leader and an inspiring communicator.  Senator Obama has these gifts as well, but of course, more rhetorical flourish without substance would be worth little.  Is there more to Senator Obama?  I believe there is."

Charles Fried, Solicitor General of the United States under Reagan

"I admire Senator McCain and was glad to help in his campaign, and to be listed as doing so; but when I concluded that I must vote for Obama for the reason states in my letter, I felt it wrong to appear to be recommending to others a vote that I was not prepared to cast myself."

Jackson M. Andrews, Republican Counsel to the U.S. Senate

"Barack Obama is a thoughtful visionary leader who as President will end the decline of American law, liberty, and fiscal responsibility that are the hallmarks of the extremist policies of the current Administration, now adopted by John McCain."

Susan Eisenhower, Granddaughter of President Eisenhower & President of the Eisenhower Group

"Given Obama's support among young people, I believe that he will be most invested in defending the interests of these rising generations and, therefore, the long-term interests of this nation as a whole."

Francis Fukuyama, Advisor to President Reagan

"...Obama probably has the greatest promise of delivering a different kind of politics."

Rita Hauser, Former White House intelligence advisor under George W. Bush

"McCain will continue the wrong-headed foreign policy decisions of Bush, while Obama will take us in a new direction."

Larry Hunter, Former President Reagan Policy Advisor

"I suspect Obama is more free-market friendly than he lets on.  He taught at the University of Chicago, a hotbed of right-of-center thought.  His economic advisers, notably Austan Goolsbee, recognize that ordinary citizens stand to gain more from open markets than from government meddling."

Scott McClellan, Former Press Secretary to President George W. Bush

"From the beginning I have said I am going to support the candidate that has the best chance for changing the way Washington works and getting things done and I will be voting for Barack Obama and clapping."

Bill Ruckelshaus, served in the Nixon and Reagan administrations

"I'm not against McCain, I'm for Obama."

Ken Adelman, served in the Ford administration

"The most important decision John McCain made in his long campaign was deciding on a running mate.  That decision showed appalling lack of judgment... that selection contradicted McCain's main two, and best two, themes for his campaign-- Country First, and experience counts.  Neither can he credibly claim, post-Palin pick."

Lilibet Hagel, Wife of Republican Senator Chuck Hagel

"This election is not about fighting phantom issues churned out by a top-notch slander machine.  Most important, it is not about distracting the public-- you and me-- with whatever slurs someone thinks will stick."

Columnists and Academics:
Jeffrey Hart, National Review Senior Editor

"It turns out that these political parties are not always either liberal or conservative, Democratic or Republican.  The Democrat, under certain conditions, can be the conservative."

Andrew Bacevich, Professor of International Relations at Boston University

"For conservatives, Obama represents a sliver of hope.  McCain represents none at all.  The choice turns out to be an easy one."

David Friedman, Economist and son of Milton and Rose Friedman

"I hope Obama wins.  President Bush has clearly been a disaster from the standpoint of libertarians and conservatives because he has presided over an astonishing rise in government spending."

Christopher Buckley, Son of National Review founder William F. Buckley & former NR columnist

"Obama has in him-- I think, despite his sometimes airy-fairy 'We are the people we have been waiting for' silly rehtoric-- the potential to be a good, perhaps even great leader.  He is, it seems clear enough, what the historical moment seems to be calling for."

Andrew Sullivan, Columnist for the Atlantic Monthly

"Obama's legislative record, speeches, and the way he has run his campaign reveal, I think, a very even temperament, a very sound judgment, and an intelligent pragmatism.  Prudence is a word that is not inappropriate to him."

Wick Alison, Former publisher of the National Review.......
the list goes on!

'Hartford Courant' To Endorse Obama, Only 2nd Democrat Ever -- 'St. Pete Times' and 'Charlotte Observer' Join In
http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003877840
FRIDAY: Updated Endorsement Tally--Obama Leads 134-52, Picks up 'NYT' and 'Philly Daily News'

David: 
"So the government's responsibility is to provide "welfare" for the insurance industry?  If a worker hasn't the means to afford a policy, well then what about those people?  In this "Real World".....there are lots of people who do not have the means to buy a policy."

Now you should know by my posts to date that i don't think the government should be providing "welfare" to anyone including companies.  if a worker doesn't have the means to afford a policy, people like me and you need to help them gain skills to get them better jobs.  if they chose not to take the opportunity, they don't deserve the insurance.  i was in the same boat years ago but didn't think the government should help me, and i didn't think others should fund it either.  it was my responsibility to find a job that pays enough to feed my family and provide health insurance.  wages are based on what the market will bare.  so if people refuse to work at a company because of the wages and benefits, the company would either go out of business, move, or raise its wages.

there will always be people like you, Titus- how fortunate for us all that the number grows smaller and smaller each day.
enjoy your selfishness- i have better things to do with my life.

Toe:  Again I will say that Obama has been a good speaker and proven nothing.  To date he is all talk and is counting on people like you to believe him.  If I only believed what he says, as you do, I would vote for him too.  However, if i understand the economy, as i do, and understand how his plans will affect it, I would be stupid to vote for a plan that is definitely going to destroy this country.  So keep up your talk and let the stupid people believe you.  Your lack of knowledge about the real issues is evident when you talk about how it is everyone's responsibility to pay taxes and social security privatization among other things.  it is fine to be wrong and everyone is sometimes.  But don't be so strong in your thought processes that you miss vital information.  You and Obama have a lot in common.  You guys speak as if you are intelligient about a subject but........................the smart ones can distinguish fact from fiction.  Obama has been really convincing on the topic of giving 95% of people a tax cut but now the truth has come to light.  of course, as soon as i heard this comment, i knew it was false.  it took some people a long time to catch on and the smart ones did.  unfortunately, Obama has the lead because the dumb ones are staying that way.  that is just one example of the problems with his smooth talking.

Toe:  by the way, if you are as great as you say you are, you would be willing to give up your entire salary for the rest of your life to help those less fortunate.  You could be an inspiration to others!  oh i'm sorry you are all talk but no action and the government should do it.  i give back in so many ways but the work i do actually helps get people on their feet again.  they won't need assistance if they have skills and knowledge.  so what about my selfishness?

Titus writes:
".......Now you should know by my posts to date that i don't think the government should be providing "welfare" to anyone including companies.  wages are based on what the market will bare.
Titus.....by establishing a government sanctioned insurance program, we would in essence be providing a redistribution of worker's pay checks into insurance companies coffers.  It's reverse socialism!
"........... if a worker doesn't have the means to afford a policy, people like me and you need to help them gain skills to get them better jobs.  if they chose not to take the opportunity, they don't deserve the insurance."
-Sounds nice, yet it assumes there will HAVE to be those that don't DESERVE benefits....So, if you....while attending school became disabled due to an accident, or a disease such as MS, by your standards, you wouldn't DESERVE some sort of safety net?

".......Now you should know by my posts to date that i don't think the government should be providing "welfare" to anyone including companies.  wages are based on what the market will bare.
Titus.....by establishing a government sanctioned insurance program, we would in essence be providing a redistribution of worker's pay checks into insurance companies coffers.  It's reverse socialism!

David-the government is going too far! 

Sounds nice, yet it assumes there will HAVE to be those that don't DESERVE benefits....So, if you....while attending school became disabled due to an accident, or a disease such as MS, by your standards, you wouldn't DESERVE some sort of safety net?

My buddy--that is the exception part and the distinction.  if someone has an issue like that, it is totally unavoidable.  however, this person was intentionally trying to do the right things by taking care of his/her responsibilities and the situation was totally out of his/her control.  that is where the exception comes in and the government should help and so should the community.  I would pitch in too!  the problems this person would have would not be the result of lack of planning whether it be an accident or disease.

David:  by the way, i live the personal responsibility philosophy myself.  with all that i have shared in my previous posts, it is evident that i'm not an elitist.  i have never asked the government or anyone else to help me.  when i make stupid decisions (and i have made so many of them), i don't expect the government or anyone else to bail me out.  i am quick to blame myself!  i was forced to go to work when i was 12 years old and understand all to well the hardships of life.  so not only do i talk about personal responsibility, i live it!

David:  by the way, i live the personal responsibility philosophy myself.  with all that i have shared in my previous posts, it is evident that i'm not an elitist.  i have never asked the government or anyone else to help me.  when i make stupid decisions (and i have made so many of them), i don't expect the government or anyone else to bail me out.  i am quick to blame myself!  i was forced to go to work when i was 12 years old and understand all to well the hardships of life.  so not only do i talk about personal responsibility, i live it!

no country deserves mc war more than america

Toe is an idiot and is selfish in every post and actually believes in a man who has not accomplished anything.  being in the senate 100 weeks, voting 130 times present, no foreign policy experience, being all rhetoric, and i could go on and on does not qualify him to do much of anything.  oh but he is a good talker.  quoting people/articles means........nothing unless you are writing papers in college.  grownups actually have to accomplish something when they go to work like earn the company they work for money.  Obama is a liberal who will run this country into the ground with his economic plan alone.  by the way i guess you call me selfish because when i give $100 to help someone all of my $100 goes to help someone.  if i gave that same amount to the government, i would be lucky to have $1 go to help someone.  the person who actually gets my $1 may or may not need it.  so my money is wasted.  so much for selfish.  oh but i forgot, you believe in big government!  ha!  what a joke!

I would love for you to set an example and give all of your money to the government and let them distribute it as they see fit.  Then you could sit up on your pedestal and shout from the mountaintops that you have let the government blow your money and spend it on who knows what.  I can guarantee that the government would not give it to those folks that are honestly in need of it.  Ha!  That is a joke in itself.  I would rather help people to help themselves.  Knowledge is power if you understand and know how to use it.  People can take more pride and confidence when they gain a skill and are able to obtain a job to sustain their families.  In turn they are able to teach others.  The government blows our money and does not distinguish between those who are desperate and really can’t help themselves and from those who can.  You give your money to the government and take the lazy way out.  I would rather keep my money to actually ensure I can do good for others.  You need to look into the mirror to see a selfish person.  I want my money to actually work for others and I need it to be used efficiently since I’m not rich!

Titus- Reading your comments concerning Obama indicates that you have given absolutely no effort towards informing yourself - opting to take the lazy out (like others here),  in having your nuts and bolts breakdown of the world as seen by Fox.  I have seen your comments here- like Stix, Russell, and Hoboblah- they are nearly word-for-word Fox "News" with "Focus on the Family" thrown in.
Your arguments against Obama not only don't hold water, they hold no one's attention. 
The selfish all-about-me- attitude of the right wing has come to a screeching halt. 
The "tax and spend" noise holds no water- the GOP themselves have destroyed any speck that might have remained regarding responsible financial matters. 
The Ronnie-deregulate- let-the-free-market -run-free-trickle-down has has bottomed out and proven a disaster to the middle class.
Bluster, fear tactics, saber rattling, and a non-diplomatic foreign policy are methods of rule have been exposed for what they are: utter failure.

100,000 turn out for Obama in Denver.
150,000 in St. Louis.

unheard of in any political rally ...ever.

Sorry, Ive been overseas finalizing some moves on my part. I'm back for awhile now.

Titus, hello and a belated welcome.

I had to laugh at your post #214 and the subsequent posts by Toe. Point set and match there Titus. Well done. Unable to respond to your post with actual Obama "accomplishments", Toe does exactly what he always does, name calls and provides anecdotal evidence.

So we have 100k at Denver. We have 150k at St. Louis. Numbers are suspect but I'll play along. That just means many have been fooled, you included.

By the way Toe, large crowds turned out for Hitler at his political rallies. Did that make them right? Way to process data.

That's right, Hobo, 18 million primary votes, three quarters of a billion, with a B, dollars raised, 100 thousand in Denver, 150 thousand in St. Louis....all "fooled" and you are smarter than all of us.  Good for you.  See you November 5th.  I love watching people like you and Fox news twist in the wind as the the will of America flies in your face.  If you have to site Hitler, you are truly out of ideas.

Thank you for proving my point. 

The only people who will be twisting in the wind are those unprepared for the coming economic demise, NO MATTER WHO WINS.  I am prepared, so no worries here.   Are you?


out.

sorry, hoboblah-
#1
I have - in multiple areas - placed here -public records by the way- information on accomplishments, bi-partisan bills, (now law) concerning
Obama-  facts, dearie.. pretty hard to dispute but easy enough for you to ignore...similar to the way you opt to ignore the constitution- does not make you right- just ignorant.
#2
"your numbers are suspect"???
I wonder if all those Chicago folks that turned out for the Bulls "three-peat"  (the numbers were similar to those seen here yesterday) ... were Hitler fans...is this your answer to everything?  marxiit, socialist, communist,  you throw words around like this with no thought at all- you cannot deal with the fact that you right wing folks are not just politically outnumbered- your failed ideology has taken us to where we are today- and you continue to support it!!! 
 your logic is not just absurd- once again, hoboblah (or in the words of your man, McCain yesterday:  "blah...blah...blah") the facts (with photographs, video, & eyewitnesses) are in direct contrast to your wish filled thinking.
i hope you are happy in your little fantasy world... one good thing for you though, you will always have Titus and Stix and Russell.  isn't that nice. 
#3 another little fact for your consumption:  McCain's numbers in his HOME state are tighter than those in Utah-  his HOME STATE.  People that - supposedly know him best... Republicans are endorsing Obama right and left.  Newspapers across the country have endorsed Obama 3-1 - and that would include  the Anchorage Daily News who came out this weekend endorsing Obama...as did the Financial Times.  I almost feel sorry for you, hoboblah...almost... but the fact is that the truth  is out there and you have elected to ignore it.   I don't feel sorry for people that are ignorant on purpose.

charting all of the editorial endorsements around the country and Obama now leads by a whopping 160 to 59. More than 35 papers have switched from Bush to Obama. The latest major papers to flip: The Providence Journal and The Fort Worth Star-Telegram today in Texas. That, amazingly, gives Obama three of the five major papers in that state, with the Houston and Austin papers earlier flipping their support from Bush to Obama.
Obama picked up the backing of (besides the papers listed above) the Baltimore Sun, St. Petersburg Times, Des Moines Register, Charlotte Observer, Hartford Courant, Rochester Democrat & Chronicle and many, many others.
For full list of editorial endorsements go here.

hoboblah, I am not at all surprised that you take comfort that you have thought of yourself first-  the majority of Americans are joining to help eachother.

Titus (214)
"Toe is an idiot and is selfish in every post and actually believes in a man who has not accomplished anything."

-The same could have been said of Abe Lincoln......
but he doesn't count because the country is different today?

Yet for McCain's 26 years in the legislative branch, what exactly has he done for America?  A large measure of the problems our nation presently experiences is his record of voting for....
-The Iraqi war (and the attendant debt, lives lost, and loss of standing in the world for America)
-Deregulating our banking industry

So you really think Toe ".....is an idiot and is selfish" for not wanting 4 more years of the same?

http://www.eons.com/groups/topic/1135922-Inexpe...

David:  i don't want any more years of the same but understand that decisions can't be made on the basis of Obama's words alone and all of his promises.  McCain has a different outlook than Bush regardless of what you guys say!  Before Toe can throw stones, she needs to look at her own party.  ha!  what a joke!  i can't say it enough--both parties are at fault!  you guys don't want to talk about Pelosi, Frank and Reed!  however, i'm quick to point out the stupidity of the republican party.  talk about fair and balanced!  i think i have brought up that i have disliked a lot of what Bush has done (not all) and most republicans in Washington are not following the republican bylaws.  What has Obama accomplished?  He speaks well and promises to give people who don't earn it more welfare!  i hear it all the time from people i meet.  that is why they are going to vote for Obama.  My son is disgusted by students at his college because they cannot talk about the economy and don't understand how Obama's plan will affect them and their mommies and daddies!  in fact i have met several myself that i have to just laugh at because they don't know why they are voting except for comments like:  i think he speaks well, he looks presidential, he is for change (they don't know what change).  i met a school administrator the other day that did not know the basics of the economy or understand how the world fits into our economy.  he was confused and said, "i've never thought of it that way."  these are the people that are teaching our kids.  no wonder kids have no clue!

by the way deregulation is not the monster you guys are making it out to be.  it depends on what topic and situation you are speaking of.  there has been a lot of deregulation that has worked beautifully but there are some regulations that need to be in place.  however, before you place blame look at both parties and what part they played in this terrible mess.  there is plenty of blame to go around with republicans and democats.  the hearings with Barney Frank with him saying essentially--how dare you question fanny mae and freddy mack when they are doing just fine--show your party didn't do so well either.  Frank also said: you can't fix something that isn't broken.  he was lying and we know it but some republicans and democrats were questioning this situation before it hit.   

I don't think Abe Lincoln would have been president if he had the record of voting 130 times present (riding the line), misrepresenting his own tax plan, etc., in addition to having a plan that would ruin this country.  people back then believed in working hard for what they had and had a sense of pride.  today people want welfare/handouts!  this is something the people of yesterday would not have understood and would have been ashamed of.  there have been times in my life that i didn't have enough to eat but i never once blamed the government for my problems and would have been ashamed to take help from it.  at this time i was only 16 years old.

good grief , woman- you have yet to understand what voting present means.  go look it up for god's sake.  i am tired of you repeating rubbish when you have no understanding of what the heck is going on.

speaking of people that don't know what's up:


John McCain continued his string of gaffes this morning by claiming that Meg Whitman, a national co-chair for his campaign and potential pick for Treasury Secretary, 
had "founded" eBay with five employees.
In fact, Whitman joined eBay as CEO in 1998, three years after it was founded by Pierre Omidyar, a Barack Obama supporter.

(oooops.)

Titus- go study what happened to Iceland- from the 1990's and forward.
Learn .

HOBOBOH--
Glad to have you back and that you liked my post.  I am prepared too and have the means to carry me through just in case Obama does win. 

IF he does win, it will be a sad day and many fellow Americans will lose their jobs just as a result of his policies in addition to job losses due to the economy.  i think i need a class in the math by the democrats-not!  $100 given to the government to "spread the wealth" = $1 given to someone who may or may not need it + $99 thrown into the black hole called government waste, which helps no one.  of course, the smart folks know it is better to know where our hardearned money is going and that it is better to be in control of what we earn.  just call me selfish for not wanting my money wasted.  oh well, if that idiot wins, we will only have to put up with him destroying this country for four years before he will be out.  however, it will take 20+ years to clean up his mess along with the mess that Pelosi, Frank and Reed make, esp. since obama will be their puppet, in addition to the mess that everyone else in the Whitehouse (both sides) has created.  hmmmmmm!  will we recover?  we will definitely not be better off if he is elected.  but hey people may not know anything about economics or Obama's accomplishments, but they think he is "presidential" and he is all about change.  Changing this country into more of a welfare society is definitely change!

if he wins?? you repubs really do live in denial.

Titus.....
By your own math, the roughly 20% of our federal budget that is taken up with defense matters......that ought to be addressed also! .....don't c'ha think?  (My best S. Palin imitation.....)
Titus, it's not just libruls that waste OUR hard earned money we pay in taxes....and you ought to realize that such a large chunk of our budget is in fact being wasted in such a way.  I saw it first hand in my own military career, and it figured into Dwight D. Eisenhower's famous speech about "The Military-Industrial Complex"......
But i s'pose that kinda waste is fin, ain't it?

David:  i agree that the defense budget should be examined and waste should be cut without cutting our abilities to protect our country.  McCain has vowed to do this.  As i've said before, both parties are wasting our hardearned money and it needs to stop.  we need smaller government, low taxes on everyone, and the elimination of wasteful spending.  I can't trust someone that will take from some and give to others that don't earn it.  Obama is not talking about reducing our deficit, building our infrastructure, etc.  he wants to give it to people who don't work.  that is just absolutely horrible.  people need to have pride in their work again and to be proud they can work to take care of their families instead of taking from others.  If Obama is elected, there will be people who once worked hard and earned a good living think twice about exceling and earning even more if they know it will only go to the government.  what's the point of sacrificing for nothing?

Titus I could not agree with you more.

The problems that true Conservatives face right now, is that there is not one to be found in any federal office.

You are right out side of the social issues. We need a much smaller Government.

It is interesting that republicans talk about wanting true conservatives back in office instead of most of what we have now.  However, you don't hear the liberals criticizing their own party that includes the worst of the worst-Pelosi, Reed and Frank.  Everytime i mention this horrid trio, the liberals ignore the comment.  there are bad apples in both parties but if Obama wins, this trio will run this country into the ground.  Obama will be their puppet.

After clicking through this website which clearly states candidates positions in their own words, without all of the b.s. to muddle through, i find that i like both candidates less and less.
http://mypakragames.com/games/we-the-decided

Michael S--that is really cool.  i got 7 out of 7 for McCain/Palin.  Thanks for sharing!

Titus.....who'd 'a guessed?
" i got 7 out of 7 for McCain/Palin"
Guess what i got?

David--

your comment "guess what i got?"

well since you asked i think you were on the border and now are going to vote for Barr.  hahhaah!  couldn't resist.

Former Reagan adviser endorses Obama
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/10/31/former-reagan-adviser-endorses-obama/