MSNBC Calls Veterans, Senior Citizens, Hockey Moms and Business Owners Hooligans

August 4th, 2009 John Michael Rivera

MSNBC has labeled groups of veterans, senior citizens, hockey moms and business owners showing up at local townhalls to protest the Obama health proposal, as “raw hooliganism”.

MSNBC feels that protesting against President Obama or any liberal for that matter, and standing up for what you believe in is subversive and should be discouraged whenever possible, which in liberal double talk means all the time.

The Obama administration, demonstrating their insecurity says: “constituents venting personal concerns, about Obama’s health care proposal, at townhall meetings were deemed “organized” groups of conservatives, “manufacturing anger” towards the Obama plan-a hilarious accusation since the conservative right has had no organization for quite some time.”

The Obama administration was not counting on voters disagreeing with President Obama, let alone actually demonstrating their dissent. Obama, it seems, does not have any experience in having to debate or defend his opinions due, in part no doubt, to the paralysis of the Republican Party and their refusal to defend themselves and their beliefs against liberal attacks.

For the uninitiated, liberals deplore debating their positions and beliefs because to debate assumes that you can argue for your ideas rationally, another foreign concept for liberals. This is why liberals avoid debates like the plague or paying federal income tax.

_____________________________________________________

John Michael Rivera is a conservative blogger writing for The Conservative Spotlight a conservative blog. He has a background in political philosophy and lives in a heavily fortified compound in an undisclosed location in Virginia.


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  • Excellent Post John. I couldn't have said it any better.
  • Dora
    gosh- now that the shoe is on the other foot,  you are all upset???
    where was your support for those of us who protested the Iraq invasion... oh yeah... we were called "traitors"- "anti-Americans"- "communists"  and those were the nice names.

    you are the same people that said of Watergate: "why all the fuss over a third rate burglary?" 
    Nixon said,  ""When the President does it, that means it is not illegal"
    have any of you noticed the flaw in that statement yet?

    as for your "hooligans"-  your "grass roots dissenters"  (aka "tea baggers"  aka extreme right wing  fringe-ies)
    Go read who RICK SCOTT is.  His background.  What his connection is with the so-called "grass roots" tea baggers/disruptors of the town hall meetings. Staged events meant for You Tube.  Bought and paid for by those lobbyists that you hate so much...or claim to hate. look up who is providing the funding to bus the "grass roots" protesters around to the various town hall meetings...take a look at the memo to "protesters" as to how to be as disruptive as possible so as not to allow the town meeting to take place- to not allow any two-way conversation... how to react if dubba name was mentioned,  how to shout out the speaker...   you know,  those "real Americans" who are so "into democracy"  - worried that their "freedoms"  are being taken away...shouting down anyone who tries to speak... oh,  and catch a glimpse of the signage-  look familiar?  everything including the kitchen sink-  except facts.

    there is no... wait, let me repeat that : NO euthanasia anything proposed in ANY of the suggested health care bills that have come out of ANY committee or promoted by ANYONE. Nothing. 
    secondly:  ever heard of the Hyde Amendment?  2blue, Jackie, all of you idiots... LOOK IT UP.  It has to do with abortion... obviously you are all aware of what the Hyde Amendment says. .. no wait... obviously you are not- hence your stupidity shown here stating what your lunatic fringe friends probably forwarded to you in your email.
    stop making shit up regarding  the health care proposals.   
    third... single payer has been "off the table" for weeks.  yes Obama campaigned on this,  no one has ever said that he did not... however,  failing to achieve this a "public option" was proposed. 
    do you  have any idea what  "option" means?  no, obviously you don't or you wouldn't be drooling all over the place with outrageous statements about "Obamacare".  

    Just once it would be nice if you - any of you - could actually debate the pros and cons of a particular proposed piece of legislation using actual facts.   Just once. 
    Too much to ask of people who refuse to read.
  • Karen Woznia
    who is this deranged person, Dora? she real? or just astroturfing around and 'getting in your face' :-)
  • 2bluestarmom
    Ok...I give up! Tried to put the video on here.  Here is a link to the video:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXKOotf3B2k&...
  • Karen Woznia
    'A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul'
    George Bernard Shaw
    ...or shall we paraphrase and replace  'Paul' with 'Dora and her ilk'....not that she would know who GB Shaw is (without wiki help :-)
  • aliy
    Hey karen,

    My favorite quote is from the bible. On a Census Tax God told Moses "a rich man shall pay no more, a poor man shall pay no less" Let's see our politicians wrap their heads around THAT! Even in Biblical times they were talking Fair Tax!

    As for the post, it was broght to my attention yesterday that liberal democrats are saying those of us who quote Obama (like the 2003 speech where he said he was FOR a single payer system) are "spreading disinformation". LOVED that quote "disinformation" The definition of Disinformation is "spreading information that is false, doctored, or otherwise fake" How in the WORLD can using Obama's OWN WORDS be FAKED?!
  • Dora
    The Widow's Offering
    LUKE 21
    As he looked up, Jesus saw the rich putting their gifts into the temple treasury. He also saw a poor widow put in two very small copper coins. "I tell you the truth," he said, "this poor widow has put in more than all the others. All these people gave their gifts out of their wealth; but she out of her poverty put in all she had to live on."
  • aliy
    And if the poor in our country were REALLY that noble Dora, I'd have no problem helping them.

    I only have a problem helping people who won't help themselves. The ones that think because they breathe I am responsible for them. THAT is who I have a problem with.

    However, you missed the point of the post. I was arguing for a flat tax.

    I must say though, it's great you're quoting the bible. DS must finally be getting through to you.
  • susanwallace
    Ali.
    Exactly why are you arguing for a flat tax. Are the Rich in your country not rich enough yet.?
    Did my providing you with the current information on income distributionin the US have no effect on your thinking.? "The latest figures on income distribution in the United States show that the top-heavy spread continues to grow. A mere 300,000 people have incomes equal to the total income of the bottom earning half of the entire population. That's 150 million people. Those 300,000 had incomes 440 times greater than the average income in the United States. The last time the income imbalance was so large was in the 1920s&30s."
  • Dora
    and you missed the point of my post- Jesus was arguing in favor of a progressive tax.
  • John Michael Rivera
    Dora, thank you for your comments. I can see that you put a lot of thought into what you wrote, judging by the length of it. Your thoughts, however, are all over the place.

    Are you suggesting that Rick Scott is behind *all* of the protests going on at local townhall meetings across the country? I think you give Mr. Scott more credit than he deserves. I have not seen or read anything that suggests otherwise.

    You mentioned that the protests were paid for by lobbyists, "Which lobbyists?" And who is paying for the buses to transport all those hooligans Dora? I don't know, do you?

    And since we're discussing the protests, what is this memo for disrupting the townhall meetings you mentioned? Can you provide us with more information about that memo/s.

    You also claim that you were belittled when you protested our invasion of Iraq. Who did that that Dora? Was it the mainstream media? I would like to know.

    Dora, if your going to make accusations be able to produce reputable sources that substantiate what you're saying.

    That's the way to debate issues, not with rants and raves!

    I do want to thank you Dora for taking the time to read my post and commenting on it. And for giving me the opportunity to discuss it with you.

    Being able to intelligently debate issues with people that disagree with me is what makes all the effort to write for blogs worth while, well at least for me anyway!
  • Dora
    John- you can start with this:
    Last night, Rep. Gene Green (D-TX) hosted a rowdy town hall meeting to discuss health care reform. Fox’s local Houston affiliate reporter, Duarte Geraldino, reported that he talked to the participants and found that “some attendees admit they don’t live in the district.” How did they get there? Geraldino noted “an internet campaign” by far right activists urging their allies to attend and heckle Democratic Representatives. Geraldino then aired a clip showing one participant acting disrespectfully towards Rep. Green. “Pay close attention to the man behind the congressman,” Geraldino says in this clip, “he seems to have forgotten the part about respect.”

    More to come.
  • aliy
    And during the stumping for POTUS, I'm sure NO ONE from outside the area traveled to see Obama speak right?

    Come on Dora. Why is it OK for your side to rally for a cause, I remember people traveling on planes and busses to get to Crawford TX to protest Bush (and let's not forget all those people who camped with Cindy Sheehan) but that was partiotism because at the time you and all liberals were saying "dissent is the highest form of patriotism" but now, standing up for what we believe, organizing and making a voice heard and letting someone know we're dissenting is some form of treason?!
  • Dora
    Aliy- at every single George W. Bush rally- no one but his supporters were allowed . All were screened. Individuals wearing anti-bush T-shirts were removed.
    The protests in Crawford were to draw attention to the Iraq war, the needless deaths, the refusal to allow the coffins to be shown, and the utter arrogance of that administration and that individual. Frankly, if Bush had just stepped outside his front door and spoken with Sheehan- I seriously doubt that anything more would have been made of it.

    I have nothing against protests, Aliy. They are our right. I object to the disruption being caused by "concerned grass-roots "real" Americans" who have no interest in anything other than chaos and disruption. Congressmen are having town meetings to have a discussion with their constituents to help them understand what proposals are afoot, how these would or would not effect them, alternatives, and to answer questions from interested voters. Your "real Americans" are similar to those attending the teabagger events and the McCain/Palin events. The signage, the ignorance, the violence that is encouraged. If you don't see this as dangerous- you have not been paying attention.
  • aliy
    And didn't you vote in someone who swore to CHANGE that? Didn't you vote in someone who said the open dialogue was welcome? You can't say Bush was wrong for quiteing protestors then tell protestors to be quite. That's what I'm talking about. You seem to think these rules and laws YOU fight for don't apply to the rest of us. YOU have the right to protest but I don't. YOU have the right to have your voice be heard, I don't. It's hypocritical Dora.

    OK, And you're saying us "real Americans" (as an insult) are the same ones who attended the tea parties and McCain/Palin events. That's DEMOCRACY Dora. We have the right to support what candidate we want without being told we're traitors to our country.

    We ARE real Americans we don't agree with you or your party but we have just as much right to call ourselves American as you do.

    The ignorance (and arrogance) is coming form YOUR side. You've got a website to snitch on your neighbors (Can you say Heil Hitler?!) You're telling everyone that anyone who doesn't agree with Obama is a traitor to their country (What's next conservative concentration camps?!). You've had your time to speak your mind, it's OUR turn. Get over it. You're just pissed we're taking pages from your "rules for radicals" playbook.

    And PS- As someone with 2 friends and a family member in Iraq and Afgh. Showing me coffins on the news is TACKY AND OFFENSIVE! If that's what you were REALLY protesting for (to show me the dead bodies of my friends and our servicemen) you are truely sick and twisted. Do you also spit on our soldiers when you see them on the street? What a disrespectful thing to protest for.
  • Dora
    http://recessrally.com/

    This site will tell you the corporate sponsors and lobbyists.
    You might need to go to this site in the wee hours because Rachael Maddow just exposed every single one of the individuals behind this.
    The site is flooded - I haven't been able to get there for the past half hour.
  • Dora
    Right-Wing Harassment Strategy Against Dems Detailed In Memo: ‘Yell,’ ‘Stand Up And Shout Out,’ ‘Rattle Him’
    This morning, Politico reported that Democratic members of Congress are increasingly being harassed by “angry, sign-carrying mobs and disruptive behavior” at local town halls. For example, in one incident, right-wing protesters surrounded Rep. Tim Bishop (D-NY) and forced police officers to have to escort him to his car for safety.
    This growing phenomenon is often marked by violence and absurdity. Recently, right-wing demonstrators hung Rep. Frank Kratovil (D-MD) in effigy outside of his office. Missing from the reporting of these stories is the fact that much of these protests are coordinated by public relations firms and lobbyists who have a stake in opposing President Obama’s reforms.
    The lobbyist-run groups Americans for Prosperity and FreedomWorks, which orchestrated the anti-Obama tea parties earlier this year, are now pursuing an aggressive strategy to create an image of mass public opposition to health care and clean energy reform. A leaked memo from Bob MacGuffie, a volunteer with the FreedomWorks website Tea Party Patriots, details how members should be infiltrating town halls and harassing Democratic members of Congress:


    – Artificially Inflate Your Numbers: “Spread out in the hall and try to be in the front half. The objective is to put the Rep on the defensive with your questions and follow-up. The Rep should be made to feel that a majority, and if not, a significant portion of at least the audience, opposes the socialist agenda of Washington.”
    – Be Disruptive Early And Often: “You need to rock-the-boat early in the Rep’s presentation, Watch for an opportunity to yell out and challenge the Rep’s statements early.”
    – Try To “Rattle Him,” Not Have An Intelligent Debate: “The goal is to rattle him, get him off his prepared script and agenda. If he says something outrageous, stand up and shout out and sit right back down. Look for these opportunities before he even takes questions.”

    The memo above also resembles the talking points being distributed by FreedomWorks for pushing an anti-health reform assault all summer. Patients United, a front group maintained by Americans for Prosperity, is currently busing people all over the country for more protests against Democratic members. Rep. Pete Sessions (R-TX), chairman of the NRCC, has endorsed the strategy, telling the Politico the days of civil town halls are now “over.”
    Meanwhile, AHIP, the trade group and lobbying juggernaut representing the health insurance industry is sending staffers to monitor town halls and other right-wing front groups are stepping up their ad campaign to smear reform efforts. The strategy for defeating reform — recently outlined by an influential lobbyist to the Hill newspaper as “delay” then “kill” — is becoming apparent. By delaying a vote until after the August recess, lobbyists are now seizing upon recess town halls as opportunities to ambush lawmakers and fool them into believing there is wide opposition to reform.
    .............more to come
  • Dora
    Patients United, a front group of conservative activists, is currently busing people all over the country to protest Democratic town halls. So if you see footage of people disrupting meetings in New Hampshire with thick southern accents, that’s the reason.
  • aliy
    Again, that is our RIGHTS as US citizens. To protest, and to travel to other parts of the country without showing 9 forms of ID and a retina scan. You make it sound like you can ONLY speak your mind if you're in your voting block. Who CARES if they are driving people around. The point is there are enough people willing to GET ON THE BUS.

    If people didn't support this movement, they wouldn't get on the bus.

    If Obama is THAT worried about this why doesn't he call his army of "change" that got him elected to get on a bus and go SUPPORT him? From what we hear everyday an overwhelming MAJORITY of people support him, where are they all? Why can't they organize and come support the bill if they care that much.

    You are just going to have to face facts that there are MORE people against this stupid healthcare crap that are for it. If your "majority" (which by the way was only 52% of the vote) is for healthcare, let them come out and show it. Why doesn't your buddy Rachel Maddow rent a bus to drive liberals around in?!
  • Dora
    Beyond the fake manufactured bussed in protests over things that are not even in ANY proposed legislation regarding health care reform, 
    this isn’t democracy in action. It’s action deliberately aimed at thwarting democracy.
    Dick Army- former House member, now lobbyist - represents huge Dubai groups, AIG, and a number of other lovely people - special interest groups who's only interest is in seeing no health care bill for the specific reason is that it would take money from their pockets... dear Dick is one of the organizers of tea baggers and recess rally disruptors  -  very "grass roots"... uh huh.

    You people insist upon voting against your best interests while you continue to line the pockets of those who screw you.  It's madness.
  • Dora
    "bused"  ^
  • Dora
    FLASHBACK: Fox News urged left-wing hecklers be "Tased" or "beaten to a pulp"
    That sure doesn't sound like the Fox News of today which seems quite impressed by the GOP mini-mobs which have been formed expressly to heckler Democratic politicians who want to discuss health care reform with their constituents at town hall meetings.
    Loudmouths = democracy in action! How dare anyone object?!
    But back in 2007, when anti-war protesters who make up Code Pink, made headlines by disrupting an official event, the Fox News morning team was seriously miffed to put it mildly.
    During a discussion about a Code Pink member heckling Hillary Clinton at a recent event, Fox News host Brian Kilmead said that people who confront politicians are “threatening” and should be Tased or “beaten to a pulp” .

    Code pink was also the subject of one of UC's rants on this site.
    He had a little hissy fit that they were disruptive.  How dare they!

    I have not seen any such stink eye here directed at the mobs that have refused to allow members of congress to address legitimate residents within his district questions regarding health care reform.

    Is this more of the do as I say not as I do philosophy held by you here?
    certainly looks that way now, doesn't it.
  • Dora
    Come on now people-  why is it that you cannot even try to be honest?
  • aliy
    There is NOTHING wrong with making your numbers great and making your voice heard. No matter how Anti-American Dora thinks it is.

    The only reason liberals are saying it's Anti-American is because it doesn't agree with them. When it was Bush in office they were great patriots for organizing protests, traveling in busses like gypsies all over the country to show up and protest everything from the war to Bush picking his nose!

    It sucks when the shoes on the other food and people are pissed off enough at YOU to get together and organize huh liberals?

    The only thing I can say about president Obama that might ven be close to a compliment is he sure is good at polarizing an entire country.
  • susanwallace
    An Outsider’s Opinion -
    The latest figures on income distribution in the United States show that the top-heavy spread continues to grow. A mere 300,000 people have incomes equal to the total income of the bottom earning half of the entire population. That's 150 million people. Those 300,000 had incomes 440 times greater than the average income in the United States. The last time the income imbalance was so large was in the 1920s&30s. In the 40s to 60’s the gaps between wealth and income were lessened thanks to war, the income tax, pro-employee legislation and labor organizations that forced a mild redistribution of the profits. That's all gone.
    Your constitution intended that there would be one vote for one person. But since money is political power in America the selection of politcal candidates is in the hands of Golden 300,000. They more or less decide who gets on the ballot: Under your present political arrangement the two major-party nominees represent little more than disagreeing factions within the Golden 300,000, and you get to help choose which one is elevated to the ultimate power in the White House.
    Some choice, but that is what you are left with and will continue to be stuck with unless the income gap is chopped down, way down, so that the top people are hauling in only 150 times the average income of the rest of you. Outsiders like myself do not call that democracy and it is certainly not what your founding fathers intended. But you can be certain that any effort to chop it down will be met with huge opposition from the Golden few with millions spent on television adds . It is time that ordinary Americans especially conservatives started asking themselves why they support candidates ,parties and policies be they republican or democrat that continue to enrich the Golden few at their expense.
    The Canadian politician who brought Universal Health Care to Canada over the dead bodies of the Insurance industry and the rich asked Canadians that very same question. He put it this way,“WHY DO THE MICE KEEP VOTING FOR THE CATS”
    Conservatives should stop buying into the Republican cries of shared values ie issues like abortion which they always support and do nothing about after they get elected. These are smoke screens. Americans had better start paying attention to the real issue- HE WHO HAS THE GOLD MAKES THE RULE. And the rules are that the rich have no intention of publicly funding education, health care, energy reform or any other program that will result in the redistribution of income that is so desperately needed if the United States is to remain a functioning democracy. Because issues are so complicated today it is easy for the Golden 300,000 to mount huge televison scare campaigns to make people believe they are on their side protecting their freedom of choice, fighting deficits and defeating that old boondoggle Socialism. But all Americans need do is to keep their eyes on the MONEY.
    In the Health fight ahead while the republicans scream that a government program will cause you to lose your choices please ask yourself if that isn’t exactly what the private insurers having been doing for years. And when the blue dog democrats and the republicans ask who will pay for Health care reform scream in one loud voice the Golden 300,000 –it’s the least they can do.








    The election of Obama defied these realities because the internet allowed him to raise huge amounts of money from millions of small donations from ordinary citizens. But make no mistake the members of the house both republicans and blue dog democrats know full well they will not get on the ballot for re-election if they defy the interests of the Golden 300,000.
  • aliy
    Good post. Very good information in there.

    Let me answer your question. If my current insurance company does something I don't like (as they often do) (loss of choice) I can fight them, or I can buy DIFFERENT insurance. I"m a pretty healthy gal. They are making TONS of money off me and not paying too much out but the yearly blood work. (and I pay a portion of THAT too) But if it's the government and only the government and they say "no mamogram for YOU" where then do I go?

    It's not that we don't think medical needs to be fixed, we just want them to FIX, not add fraud to corruption. Right now Medicare is full of fraud and corruption and we want to EXPAND that?

    I was talking with an older woman today who thinks medicare is WONDERFUL and I said "what if they cut $131 billion out off YOUR plan and give me one" she was NOT happy about that but you know what, that's the EXACT bill that's on the table.

    If 30 Million Americans sneaked across the board to Canada and demanded free healthcare with no intention of paying ANYTHING into the system, just wanted you Canadians to pay more in taxes so we don't have too. Would Canada be pissed? That's the EXACT bill that's on the table. I've read 698 pages of it. I KNOW what's in there.

    Saying nice things like "you can keep your doctor if you like him" is like telling a child it's no big deal they threw a ball through the window. It IS a big deal, it's going to be expensive to fix but you don't want the child getting upset. He's treating us like kids.

    If they put all these restrictions and taxes and rules on small business my boss is going to go "oh, cheaper insurance option, sign my employees up" What smart business owner woudn't do that?! So telling me I can keep my doctor is CRAP and eveyone knows it.
  • susanwallace
    Alyi,
    Let me see if you don't like what your insurer does you can do what? Fight them?
    Exactly how do you fight them? Or you can change insurance companies? Great idea except give or take a minor issue or two the same number of dollars paid in premiums will get you just about the same thing regardless of which insurer you choose. The choice you are talking about doesn't exist. The private insurers have only one motivation and that is to make money, lots and lots of money. The only way they can do that is to charge premiums that will bring in more dollars than the care they provide actually costs.
    In the Canadian system everyone belongs rich or poor . So if there is anything they do not cover that the public thinks they should there is an immediate hue and cry. What our system covers or doesn't cover has never really been an issue. What has been an issue from time to time is WAIT TIMES. This NEVER applies to essential surgeries but only to elective surgeries--things for which someone can wait . But even wait times for elective surgeries are not tolerated by the public for long and when they become an issue the party in power had better fix the problem or they will find themselves out on their ear. Our system is not perfect but the statistics are very clear and no one disputes them. The Canadian Health Care system covers everyone at a much lower cost and with better health outcomes than the for profit system you have in the United States.
    Posters on these blogs talk about Canadians travelling to the US for care. I am sure a few do. Any Canadian who wants to travel to the states for treatment is free to do so. But if our system was not excellent your bloggers would be able to find thousands of stories about rich Canadians going to the states for health care. Not the isolated few they can come up with after extensive research.
    PS. We choose our own doctors and if we don't like the care we are receiving we change doctors.
  • aliy
    That's Great Susan but understand here in the USA we already have a couple government run medical programs and they are COMPLETE failures. Medicare is full of fraud and in some places you have to travel OVER an hour to find a doctor who will take it! (like MY DAD) VA's, my friend Torey had to travel over 4 hours to find a doctor who would take THAT (since the nearest VA was over 6 hours away) And Indian Reservations, let's not even TALK about what goes on there.

    We're talking about handing our lives over to a bunch of people who are completely self absorbed and will only add corruption to fraud. You're also forgetting stats like Canada has 4,000 people eligible for transplants, we've got over 90,000 here. It's nice to say Canada can do it cheaper but when you look at the sheer volume of what our government is trying to bite off it's stagering! AND they want to include illegals.

    You didn't answer my question about if 3 million American's came there and wanted you to pay your taxes so they could have free health care without paying in. Would you do it? Would you be willing to let them raise your taxes so I can have medical and not bother to pay into the system for it?

    That is part of this bill. No matter how many liberal say "no sir" it IS. Look it up H.R 676 section 202. The formation of a migrant worker insurance program. PS- for those of you who don't know what Migrant Workers are, it's people who have no intention of being here legal just working a farm and sucking off our system.

    And to be quite honest with you Susan, I've found a LOT of stories about rich people from Canada and England coming here for medical care, it's called Medical Tourism and those are the two countries they concentrate on coming here. I don't know what provice you're in up there but the Ontario area (over a 10 year period) spent as much as $300 million a year in what they call "cross boarder medical expenses" basically, you're country paid OUR hospitals money becuase people came here for treatment.
  • susanwallace
    For Ali,
    You are exactly right about the $300 million my province of Ontario spent over ten years on "cross border: medical expenses. This is an amazing positive for our system NOT a negative. When the Ontario government was re-organizing our hospital system to eliminate wait times for surguries they established this program to ensure that no-one in Ontario would have to wait for essential care. If anyone needed surgery Ontario could not provide in a timely manner our provincial government paid for them to get that care in the US.

    Now for your other question. I understand your illegal immigrant problem.
    But you need to understand why you have that problem and who is profiting by it.
    Your illegal immigrants and immigrants on work Visas come to the US for jobs.
    If there were no jobs and their children could not attend your schools they would stop coming and those already in the US would return home. No fence no matter how high will ever keep these people out.
    Currently these immigrants receive care in your emergency rooms which is a very expensive way to deliver care. Their medical care and schooling for their children is paid for by the middle class tax payor. Who benifits?
    Your corporations and other employers who want cheap labour including the rich wanting a supply of cheap maids and gardeners have been allowed to ignore the laws you actually have on your books against hiring undocumented workers. If these laws were enforced the problem would go away. Instead employers have been allowed to profit from;the cheap labour while downloading the costs to the taxpayers. It also allows these employers to treat these workers vary badly and there is nothing they can do about it.
    These workers pay no income tax while at the same time using services they do not pay for..But don't blame them, blame the real culprits --those who employ them.
    Corporate America claims they do the jobs Americans will not do. But Americans would do them if they paid a living wage. The employers claim that the costs for agricultual products would go up for consumers if they had to pay
    a living wage. But isn't that true for any product manufactued or service provided in the US and is that a reason for bringing in immigrants to do every job Americans now do. Where it can be demonstrated that a short term supply of labour is needed to fill an immediate need a guest worker program can bring workers with the employer having to guarantee their return to the home country at the end of their work Visa and pay for their medical care while they are in the country.
    Doing something to provide medial coverage for legal Immigrants workers on short term work Visas seems to me to be a good thing. Does the Bill say who will be paying their premiums? I sure hope it is the employers and not the tax payers. As it stands now those workers just show up at emergency rooms for care and you pay for it.
    In Canada employers who hire illegal workers are heavily fined. Further no child can attend a public school here without proof that they are legally in this country.
    You have a huge immigrant problem and frankly it is one that neither the Democrats or Republicans want to solve because it is not in interests of the rich in your country to do so. The rich get richer and the middleclass and the poor pay for it.
  • aliy
    Ok, Susan, but understand that if we INSURE them without them doing something to become legal and paying into the system, it's STILL us paying for them to get this care. Instead of insurance companies getting charged more which translates into higher premiums for me, it's going to be collected in a tax of some kind (already suggested is a food tax)

    They were suppose to do something about this fine for illegal workers but there's been nothing really done about it or we wouldn't have 30,000 of them still here undetected.

    It has nothing to do with the rich getting richer, that's a totally moot point in this, this is about healthcare and who the hell is going to pay for illegals. Citizens of the USA don't WANT to pay for them. We want to make THEM pay into the system, what's fair is fair!

    If we all just sit back and say "oh well, the rich need to get richer" we're all screwed. What you're seeing here isn't an uprising against YOUR system. It's about the preposal to insure these people who are NOT going to be forced to contribute.

    There is a congress woman running around telling people we are NOT GOING TO INSURE ILLEGALS. That is a bold faced LIE. It's IN THE BILL. Section 202. THAT is what this is about. THAT is what us conservatives are pissing about. It's the bold face lies coming from our reps about the bill. They didn't read it (Conyers said "why read the bill it's 1,000 pages, you're not going to understand it") but a LOT of us (including ME) DID read it and DID understand it and we are NOT happy about the stuff burried in there.

    I'm not saying a republican can do better, I'm saying fix the problems we have before adding corruption to fraud. Can you at least agree to that?
  • aliy
    Did you ever date a guy (girl) who was always worried you would cheat? Did you later break up with them because they cheated on you? Come on now, we ALL have one of those in our past. I think the liberals are acting all paranoid that there's some grassroots evil millionaire in a liar somewhere bussing conservatives around to "get in people's faces" (little Obama shout out there) because that is EXACTLY what THEY DO.

    Was it NOT Obama who told his followers to get out there, get in peoples faces? See, they are just pissed we took a page from their radical rulebook!
  • Dora
    It was only a matter of time... mob mentality, loaded with misinformation= recipe for violence.
    Police officers were called to calm down an unruly crowd outside a health care reform town hall meeting in downtown Tampa, Florida on Thursday evening, according to local news reports.

    Angry protesters screamed, yelled and banged on windows as officers hurried to guard the entrances to the facility, where U.S. Rep. Kathy Castor was trying to discuss the various health care reform proposals being debated in Congress. One photojournalist said that a fistfight broke out inside the building, reports WTSP.

    Many of the hundreds of protesters said that they had been inspired by a conservative activist group promoted by Fox News host Glenn Beck and some received emails from the county Republican party, according to the St. Petersburg Times:

    Instead, hundreds of vocal critics turned out, many of them saying they had been spurred on through the Tampa 912 activist group promoted by conservative radio and television personality Glenn Beck. Others had received e-mails from the Hillsborough Republican party that urged people to speak out against the plan and offered talking points to challenge supporters.

    The spectacle at the Children's Board in Ybor City sounded more like a wrestling cage match than a panel discussion on national policy, and it was just the latest example of a health care meeting disrupted by livid protesters.

    The Tampa Tribune reports that some protesters carried racist caricatures of President Obama and added details of more fights and scuffles:

    Several of the protesters' signs bore an image of Obama with his face painted as the Joker, an image that drew protests of racism locally when it appeared on a Web site thought to be associated with the Pinellas Republican party.
  • aliy
    Dora, YOUR protestors held pictures of Bush with his face painted as the joker. What's good for the goose is not racist when done back. This race card is NOT going to work this time.

    Here's ONE picture you liberals made of Bush:

    forbiddenplanet.co.uk/blog/2008/07/a-very-nasty-supervillain/

    And another:

    politicalhumor.about.com/library/images/blbushjoker2.htm

    And finally:

    http://www.freakingnews.com/Joker-Bush-Pictures...

    How can you sit there and act like painting Obama as the Joker is racist when YOUR team did this more than once to Bush and it was all fun and games then?

    It's in poor taste no doubt, that I will give you. I guess you are just really upset the conservatives are stooping to your classless level on this one. But it's NOT racist. The race card can't be played when you threw down this image first.
  • AckAck
    Aliy, it's not the same for the liberals. They don't see it the way you and I see it. Dora if freaky and I understand that, unless she has a change of heart, there's just no talking with her on any level. No point in it... Now, having said that does not mean we need to lay down and take the crappy rhetoric she spews!
  • aliy
    You know it really irks me that Dora's last post is all about the "riot" in Tampa when a black conservative had his FACE BASHED in by union workers (St. Louis) becuase he was handing out "don't tread on me" flags!!! Notice how in Tampa where they were yelling--THAT'S violence, but this poor man get beat to crap to the point he was in the hosptial and That's OK. Where's Obama saying the union guys "acted Stupid"? Where's Jessie Jackson? Where's Rev. Wright? Where's the ACLU? Where's the NAACP? They kicked his teeth in while calling him the N word and liberals are cool with that. But God forbid we don't let Kathy Castor promote health care lies!
  • AckAck
    Aliy, Obama and the unions are the same. YOU GOTTA REMEMBER WHO WE ARE TALKING ABOUT HERE - REMEMBER CHICAGO? You watch what is already happening and it will only get worse. Large corporations are already being threatened that if they don't use total union labor they won't get the contracts they bid on and they may get shut down completly... When they run out of large corporations, guess who they will target? Everything in this nation will be government run if we don't stop Obama and company.
  • AckAck
    Dora, I hope it get worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse! I hope it gets to where you can't walk down the street without being confronted for your evil ways...
  • Calvin
    Liberals, or rather, Statists, don't like Conservatives having a voice. The more Conservatives fight back against statist schemes, the harder it is for statists to shove their agenda down our throats. We are the majority, now we have to act the part and get these idiots out of our country!
  • Dora
    What idiots, Calvin...be specific. Name some names. Majority of what? Stupidity?

    Who is shoving what?
    If you are talking about health care reform- what specifically bothers you? Do you believe that the status quo is just fine? Are you insured? Are you happy with it? What specific item in which health care reform bill bothers you... there are four presently. The fifth one is still in the Senate finance committee. Now, I am certain that you must have read them all for you to make such statements. One of them, regarding single payer, is over 1,500 pages long. That one has been off the table for several weeks. A dead issue. It also happened to be the shortest bill.
    It's really amazing how you fools, with absolutely nothing between the ears and no interest in improving your lot or have a clue as to the dreadful state of our health care system, or the urgency for the reform of this are the first ones to grab the pitchfork and the ropes for a lynching.

    By the way, dear Calvin, how did your representatives vote last week when a bill was put before them "....whereas we do not endorse socialized medicine... whereas...etc... we hereby vote to end Medicare" ??
    Let me help you out, Calvin... they all voted no. Everyone. Not a single elected representative voted in favor of this. Nobody. From ANY party. Were you sleeping that day- or do you just listen to Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh?
  • AckAck
    Dora, still living the rafters!
  • AckAck
    Ok Liberals - HERE IT IS STRAIGHT FROM THE GREATEST HISTORY BOOK ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH - "THE HOLY BIBLE"

    As the Apostle Paul wrote to believers at Corinth, he described "a great and effectual door" opened to the preaching of the Gospel, but there were "many adversaries" (Cor. 16:9). In spite of great opposition, the Good News of Jesus spread throughout the then known world. It is now spreading throughout this land as a result of our corrupt leaders of this country.

    The same open door stands before us today. Many are longing to hear the message of forgiveness and eternal life through Jesus. Yet, as with Paul, there are many enemies, prejudice against Christians and their message, false religions, physical threats and persecutions, threats from unstabe governments, kooks and reprobates, injustice and immorality and a plethora of other Satanically inspired oppositions' attempt to both close the door and keep believers from entering.

    Yet, the door remains open. We have perhaps greater opportunities today to share Jesus than before. So, with that in mind, I open this discussion up to those who would openly oppose Jesus and the Second Coming. Those Athiest and other non-believers that partake of crime, sins and vile deeds in their life. WAKE UP! It's still not too late for you or America...

    ALL CHRISTIAN BROTHERS AND SISTERS ARE ENCOURAGED TO WADE IN!
  • Leslie_H
    AckAck- I've believed for sometime that there is no such thing as an atheist. What I mean is, if someone told me they didn't believe in gravity I wouldn't get upset because I know they are just foolish. But have you ever noticed the insane anger toward Christians that comes from atheists? I believe it's because deep down they know that God is real only they don't want to admit it because their whole world view and lifestyle would have to change. I don't want to convince atheists that Christ is their savior, I just pray that they will accept what they already know is the truth.
  • AckAck
    Leslie H. I have known for many years that God and Godly ways are enemy to the non-believer. I was joined with God through baptism while attending a Missionary Church in Eastern Kentucky many moons ago. So, while growing up and doing the things I did in life, my greatest fear was God. So, I know firsthand what fear God puts in the non-christian's life.

    I'm sure you have heard the old saying that if an atheist is going over a large cliff in an automobile, he stops being an atheist and yells "Oh God!"

    My point was that I see the christian conservatives standing up and speaking out right now more than I have ever hear or seen them. I can see why, WE ARE TIRED! I am tired and angry and many others are tired and angry of not getting our voice heard in Washington. We never ask much, just hear us... Look at the democrat town hall meetings on the health care project, not a one of them has escaped the grips of the Almighty!

    We all need to join in and let our voices be heard.
  • susanwallace
    I am a Canadian who happened onto this site by mistake. I have posted two comments to which almost no one has replied.
    It seems this blog is only for ranting and raving and not for serious and thoughtful discussion of the issues. I do get the message that many of you feel that both as a group and as individuals that you have almost no say in political matters. This I agree with. But I think you are all dead wrong about the cause.
    If your enemies are the atheists and statists and liberals why then when you sent George Bush to the white house and elected a Republican congress and senate did you not see things go your way.
    Well from this outsiders point of view you have simply identified the wrong enemy. American conservatism depends for it’s very existence on grass roots conservatives like yourselves never making the mental connection that is obvious and self evident everywhere else on the planet. Your interests are not alined with the RICH. The laissez faire capitalism and free markets you support whole heartly has simply led to corporate America and the Super Rich it creates getting almost total control over your political system and your cultural system. So much so that they consistently convince you to act against your own self interests.
    The statists you so decry – (those that believe that economic and and politcial power should be controlled by a central government leaving individuals with relatively little say) exist alright and they are in control. But they are not the socialists or liberals you rail at. They are the very people you support .
    To be blunt your real enemy is the Super Rich be they Democrat or Republican.
    And they have convinced you to abandon equality and economic security at the historical moment when you need them the most. If you are still reading and have not yet grabbed a pie you would like to throw in my face re-read my previous post to understand why what I am saying is undeniable.
    It AIN”t the liberals in control there are practically none of them left in the US.
    The latest figures on income distribution in the United States shows that the top-heavy spread continues to grow. A mere 300,000 people have incomes equal to the total income of the bottom earning half of the entire population. That's 150 million people. Those 300,000 had incomes 440 times greater than the average income in the United States. The last time the income imbalance was so large was in the 1920s&30s. In the 40s to 60’s the gaps between wealth and income were lessened thanks to war, the income tax, pro-employee legislation and labor organizations that forced a mild redistribution of the profits. That's all gone.
    Your constitution intended that there would be one vote for one person. But since money is political power in America the selection of politcal candidates is in the hands of Golden 300,000. They more or less decide who gets on the ballot: Under your present political arrangement the two major-party nominees represent little more than disagreeing factions within the Golden 300,000, and you get to help choose which one is elevated to the ultimate power in the White House.
    Some choice, but that is what you are left with and will continue to be stuck with unless the income gap is chopped down, way down, so that the top people are hauling in only 150 times the average income of the rest of you. Outsiders like myself do not call that democracy and it is certainly not what your founding fathers intended. But you can be certain that any effort to chop it down will be met with huge opposition from the Golden few with millions spent on television adds . It is time that ordinary Americans especially conservatives started asking themselves why they support candidates ,parties and policies be they republican or democrat that continue to enrich the Golden few at their expense.
    The Canadian politician who brought Universal Health Care to Canada over the dead bodies of the Insurance industry and the rich asked Canadians that very same question. He put it this way,“WHY DO THE MICE KEEP VOTING FOR THE CATS”
    Conservatives should stop buying into the Republican cries of shared values ie issues like abortion which they always support and do nothing about after they get elected. These are smoke screens. Americans had better start paying attention to the real issue- HE WHO HAS THE GOLD MAKES THE RULE. And the rules are that the rich have no intention of publicly funding education, health care, energy reform or any other program that will result in the redistribution of income that is so desperately needed if the United States is to remain a functioning democracy. Because issues are so complicated today it is easy for the Golden 300,000 to mount huge televison scare campaigns to make people believe they are on their side protecting their freedom of choice, fighting deficits and defeating that old boondoggle Socialism. But all Americans need do is to keep their eyes on the MONEY.
    In the Health fight ahead while the republicans scream that a government program will cause you to lose your choices please ask yourself if that isn’t exactly what the private insurers having been doing for years. And when the blue dog democrats and the republicans ask who will pay for Health care reform scream in one loud voice the Golden 300,000 –it’s the least they can do.
    The election of Obama defied these realities because the internet allowed him to raise huge amounts of money from millions of small donations from ordinary citizens. But make no mistake the members of the house both republicans and blue dog democrats know full well they will not get on the ballot for re-election if they defy the interests of the Golden 300,000.
  • AckAck
    Susan Wallace, I have visited your beautiful country both in the summer months and the winter months. I loved them both.

    Thank you for that great post and for sharing your insight on politics here in the United States of America. I don't know how you feel about our two countries being as close as I think we are but I, for one, have always thought we should be able to visit each other without border conflict. That's just my thoughts and I am sure I resonate for millions of Americans. I would hope for many Canadians also.

    You are 100% right in your assessment of problems in America. I have always been aware of these problems. I am a senior citizen and since I became mature enough to pay attention to and understand a fraction of the politicial structure in America I have know some of this.

    I am one of those people who always voted, voiced my opinion and tried to lead in areas that I feel I could be effective in. I know about money and the power it gives one. I am equally aware of how politicians fit into the spiral we have been for years and years.I have not given up and I will never give up but we seem to be in an irreversible direction of self destruct! If I were to give you my total assessment of how we are today, I would tell you "WE'RE SCREWED!"
  • aliy
    Susan, I'm a little dissapointed that you think all the talking back and forth you and I have done is "no one is replying" I've done nothing but answer you're questions and ask my own. Which, by the way, you still haven't answered.

    So, here again, I'll ask it.

    If 30 million Americans ran to Canada and asked you to pay higher taxes so we could have free health care, would you just buckle under and do it?

    So far you've answered me with the reason we have so many illegals and told me the rich get richer. But that really doesn't answer the question I asked.

    Would you pay higher taxes so I don't have too and so I can have YOUR healthcare?
  • susanwallace
    aliy,
    I have now read the section you refer to and the rest of the act and there is nothing in the act about covering illegal immigrnats. Section 202 is about tax provisions including how they apply to non-resident aliens----non resident aliens are people who file income tax in the United States because they have earned income in your country and must pay tax on that income. It has nothing to do with illegal immigrants who never file tax returns.
    If you are refering to some other section please post the exact text you are referring to. Otherwise I can only conclude that either you are unable to read or you intentionally intend to lie to people.

    PS A copy of the complete bill is available on-line for anyone who cares to read it.

    Section 202
    1 gross income shall be determined as provided in section
    2 67(e).
    3 ‘‘(e) INFLATION ADJUSTMENTS.—
    4 ‘‘(1) IN GENERAL.—In the case of taxable years
    5 beginning after 2011, the dollar amounts in sub6
    section (a) shall be increased by an amount equal
    7 to—
    8 ‘‘(A) such dollar amount, multiplied by
    9 ‘‘(B) the cost-of-living adjustment deter10
    mined under section 1(f)(3) for the calendar
    11 year in which the taxable year begins, by sub12
    stituting ‘calendar year 2010’ for ‘calendar year
    13 1992’ in subparagraph (B) thereof.
    14 ‘‘(2) ROUNDING.—If any amount as adjusted
    15 under paragraph (1) is not a multiple of $5,000,
    16 such amount shall be rounded to the next lowest
    17 multiple of $5,000.
    18 ‘‘(f) SPECIAL RULES.—
    19 ‘‘(1) NONRESIDENT ALIEN.—In the case of a
    20 nonresident alien individual, only amounts taken
    21 into account in connection with the tax imposed
    22 under section 871(b) shall be taken into account
    23 under this section.
    24 ‘‘(2) CITIZENS AND RESIDENTS LIVING
    25 ABROAD.—The dollar amounts in effect under sub-
    VerDate Nov 24 2008 12:51 Jul 14, 2023 Jkt 0
  • Leslie_H
    AckAck- Amen
  • aliy
    Oh PLEASE let me answer Dora on this one:

    Q: "what specifically bothers you?"
    A: insuring illegal's (read section 202 of the bill, it's in there. If you are too lazy to scroll through ALL those pages, you can go to Conyers site and there's link DIRECTLY to that section)
    Q:"Do you believe that the status quo is just fine?"--
    A: HELL NO. Medicare, indian UHC and VA hospitals are raught with corruption and fraud and we just don't want that expanded. FIX THAT FIRST. Then try to sell me on joining the misery, thank you.
    Q: "Are you insured?":
    A: Yeah, I have Humana, and they SUCK they denied a mamogram last year for me becuase they don't feel I'm old enough to need one. However, I had ever right to go purchase it myself thank you. So my lump was diagnosed and I have to get it re-done in two months, my doctor is desperatley looking for a way to write it so Humana WILL cover it. Why not address the problems with private insurance regulations like THAT first.

    My point: There has been NO give on the side of liberals for any provisions in these bills that would instantly bring conservatives to your side.
    1. make it mandatory for illegals to register to become legal before they are covered.
    2. Reform tort law
    3. change the law that says the hospital MUST provide service no matter an individuals ability to pay. (life threatening emergencies, yes, I'll conceed "ARE YOU LEGAL?" Should be the last question asked so we'll give you that. It's the hang nail in the ER that we're sick of covering.)

    If you were to do just those 3 simple things a bunch of conservatives might jump on the band wagon! But no liberal is willing to conceed to NOT covering illegals, no liberal is willing to conceed to reforming tort law (and more than likely, no republican either) and no one is willing to take off that provision that you HAVE to treat a hang nail at the ER.

    DEBUNK:

    Talking point 1 for liberals (AKA LIE #1) People are being denied insurance for pre-existing conditions.

    You legally can't deny pre-existing conditions (already a law on the books) if someone had insurance for 12 months prior, and if they didn't, they only need to keep it 12 months and it's covered. So that argument is OUT THE WINDOW.

    Talking point 2 for liberals (AKA LIE #2) 46 Million uninsured.
    Let's break that down. 30 million illegals, that brings it to 16 million uninsured.
    13 million who are too freaking lazy to go fill out the paperwork for the medicaid they DO qualify for. That bring the total down to 3 million.

    If you came to me and said 3 million people need help. I'd have no problem helping them. Meet us 1/2 way Dora, if your side were willing to conceed to some of these points we'd get a hell of a lot further in the fixing of health care.

    But as long as you are going to make ME pay taxes for an illegal to be covered....We will never come to a meeting point.
  • JackieM
    Aliy, liberals and democrats have been informed of everything you said. however, as usual, they refuse to acknowledge anything we have said. that is why people are angry. dora will read your post and tomorrow will start the same rants and will continue to spew her hatred for this country and its people. democrats/liberals have gone too far. they deserved to be yelled at because calls/emails have not worked. they don't give a damn about what the American people actually want. they are hell bent on fulfilling their agenda to destroy this country and the people have no say in it apparently until election day.
  • susanwallace
    Jackie;
    Do you listen to yourself? Can you tell me what exactly is the motivation for these liberals democrats or what ever you call them to want to destroy their own country.
  • JackieM
    oh yeah i can tell you! they don't think it is destroying our country. they think "spreading the wealth" is for the benefit of all and it isn't! every move this administration has made has taken more and more of our freedoms away. obama campaigned on transparency but this is the most corrupt administration we have ever had and there is very little transparency. look at their principals. they understand that the deficit is out of control and that they are now the major reason for it but continue to blame Bush. they will ensure our recession lingers longer than necessary because they don't want to implement policies that will actually work. these policies are simple and can be proven throughout history and through simple economics. they refuse to acknowledge them because they promised their base they would stick it to the "rich." i will be the first to criticize my own party because they didn't stand by the republican principals. however, two wrongs don't make a right! liberals/democrats believe in killing babies and support people in our government (one of which is in obama's cabinet) who support late term abortions. then they will swear that it doesn't happen unless the mother's or baby's life is in danger. this has been proven false but they don't care and they continue to spew the same garbage! life is not valued by them but selective births are! personal responsibility is also not a priority! the liberals/democrats are trying to destroy everything this country was founded on! I'm sick of it!
  • susanwallace
    aliy I repeat
    What you are you are telling people is simply untrue. I have read the section you refer to and the rest of the act and there is nothing in the act about covering illegal immigrnats. Section 202 is about tax provisions including how they apply to non-resident aliens----non resident aliens are people who file income tax in the United States because they have earned income in your country and must pay tax on that income. It has nothing to do with illegal immigrants who never file tax returns.
    If you are refering to some other section please post the exact text you are referring to. Otherwise I can only conclude that either you are unable to read or you intentionally intend to lie to people.

    PS A copy of the complete bill is available on-line for anyone who cares to read it.

    Section 202
    1 gross income shall be determined as provided in section
    2 67(e).
    3 ‘‘(e) INFLATION ADJUSTMENTS.—
    4 ‘‘(1) IN GENERAL.—In the case of taxable years
    5 beginning after 2011, the dollar amounts in sub6
    section (a) shall be increased by an amount equal
    7 to—
    8 ‘‘(A) such dollar amount, multiplied by
    9 ‘‘(B) the cost-of-living adjustment deter10
    mined under section 1(f)(3) for the calendar
    11 year in which the taxable year begins, by sub12
    stituting ‘calendar year 2010’ for ‘calendar year
    13 1992’ in subparagraph (B) thereof.
    14 ‘‘(2) ROUNDING.—If any amount as adjusted
    15 under paragraph (1) is not a multiple of $5,000,
    16 such amount shall be rounded to the next lowest
    17 multiple of $5,000.
    18 ‘‘(f) SPECIAL RULES.—
    19 ‘‘(1) NONRESIDENT ALIEN.—In the case of a
    20 nonresident alien individual, only amounts taken
    21 into account in connection with the tax imposed
    22 under section 871(b) shall be taken into account
    23 under this section.
    24 ‘‘(2) CITIZENS AND RESIDENTS LIVING
    25 ABROAD.—The dollar amounts in effect under sub-
    VerDate Nov 24 2008 12:51 Jul 14, 2023 Jkt 0
  • JackieM
    i don't give a damn about this article. all you have to do is to listen to the damn liberals/democrats and obama. they want to ensure 46MM people. they have also admitted in the interviews that i've seen that illegals are a part of this number. they are damn liberals/democrats for goodness sake. this is what they do. entitlements are what they do best!
  • JackieM
    this bill is like the "stimulus" bill and it can be changed at the last minute so that people won't even realize it! so regardless of what is in the bill now, provisions will be added and rest assured as with the "stimulus," it won't be good for the American people. democrats/liberals proved how dishonest they are and can't be trusted regardless of what they say. the American people are seeing this! This bill will destroy jobs and further hurt this economy. Yeah, the liberals/democrats are fulfilling their agenda of destroying this country!
  • Dora
    Susan- I am impressed that, as someone who is not even a US citizen, you are far more informed than these people here. Jackie admits that she hasn't even read the drafts for any proposals... remember there is NO one BILL yet...NONE. These people glue their faces to the television and avidly listen to air-headed Palin squawk, rant, and rave over something NEVER proposed. It's absolutely nowhere in any proposed legislation... AT ALL. They continue to do this regarding "end of life care" The mention of this has only to do with medicare workers letting medicare recipients know that this is available to them to assist in formulating a "living will" so that family will know their wishes and not be guessing when their time comes.
    These freaks have decided Obama is pushing euthanasia. Apples and oranges yet they see them as one and the same. The absolute ignorance here is astounding. How shameful that these loudmouths are so lazy they cannot just wander over and read the legislation proposed. How shameful that these ignorant people cannot grasp simple concepts and common decency.

    With the continued level of stupidity here and the turning over of the site to bible thumpers, right-wing fringe fanatics, and foul mouthed
    fools, there is no reason for either of us to be here Susan. They will continue to believe the way that they do because they are too ignorant to learn for themselves from the actual source. They depend upon others to interpret for them. They rush to right wing websites for reinforcement even after the "information" has been thoroughly debunked... fools like Bud/Bubba/Bubbles/AckAckBacktoBasics, and any number of other names he has taken here... he continues to believe the "Kenyan Birth Certificate" was real... even though the forger has admitted that he'd punked the gullible on the right. Jackie bought it. She's all over anything she can find that sounds negative on Obama. 2blue as well... Leslie also. Negative, bitching and moaning. You just have to shake your head and walk away, Susan. Honestly, they are just not worth the time. I thank you for your astute input here.
  • JackieM
    I never said I didn't read the bill you moron! by the way, you are the one who comes here to bitch and moan! LOL! it is funny that you acuse others of something you are the queen of!